Are you involved in the hiring of dozens or even hundreds of employees a year? If so, you'll know that the typical sourcing tools, tactics, and strategies just don't scale. This podcast features news, tips, case studies, and interviews with the world's leading experts about the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to high-volume hiring.
What are the top five trends in recruitment marketing?
Julie is the President of RecruitmentMarketing.com. She is widely recognized as an industry leader and advocate who shares her knowledge and experience from working with hundreds of companies and over a billion dollars in advertising.
Welcome to the High Volume Hiring podcast. I'm Steven Rothberg, the founder of Job Search Site College recruiter. We believe that every student in recent grad deserves a great career. This podcast features news tips, case studies, and interviews with the world's leading experts about the good, the bad, ammy ugly when it comes to high volume hiring. Thanks for joining us. Today's guest is my friend, Julie Callie, the president of recruitment marketing.com. Julie, welcome to the show. Hi,
Stephen. I'm so happy to join you today.
It is awesome. You've all got, always got such a smile, not, not only on your face, but also in your voice, said it's, it's infectious. I love it.
Aw, thank you.
Later on, I'm gonna ask you about a, a favorite horror story that you can share with the listeners, maybe from the industry or one or two of your jobs that you've had. But before we get there maybe take a minute or two and tell the listeners who might not know you who's Julie, what do you do?
Ah, what do I do? So, I am, I'd definitely say I am someone who is working towards empowering the work of the recruitment marketer. We are going through a massive transformation in a digital era, and as we're trying to improve the experience that we give all humans and job search recruitment marketers are working the frontline. At the same time, the world is changing around us with laws and mandates and the desire to be more inclusive in our practice. So there's a lot of work being done in recruitment marketing and advancing very quickly, and I am trying to help all of those in the world who are doing that job, powering them with information, elevating each other and helping them connect. So I couldn't be more proud to be [email protected] to help bring people together and share that information.
Oh, awesome. And yeah, for, from a field that pretty much didn't exist 10 years ago, it, it is, it is advancing so rapidly, so many larger organizations, especially having an employment branding specialist, a programmatic team you know, different, different names for different kinds of roles, but most organizations hadn't even heard of this a decade ago. You're
Right. There's so many different types of roles now. Yeah. In recruitment marketing. It used to be just something you expected the recruiter to do. Yeah, right. <Laugh> but the recruiter already has a job, and this job keeps getting bigger. So I, I've, I have loved working in recruitment marketing. I just find it so rewarding because I know there are two, you know, beneficiaries that you're helping at the same time, you're helping a company find the talent that it needs, so can continue to grow and have success. I, I, you know, and I hope for that for every company. And then on the other side of that, there's people, there's humans who are looking for work. They're looking for a career. They're looking for a place to find purpose and, you know, create financial stability for their, their families and their loved ones. So I, I just find such great purpose in doing marketing for the, the reason of recruitment. So it's been tremendously rewarding. And I, I, I see all the problems in this space. Every day I bump into new ones, and I just wanna help break through all of those challenges. As technology becomes more available to us, we need to embrace it and accelerate what we're doing in recruitment marketing. And, and I'm, I'm excited for what the future holds for us.
Yeah, it, it, it definitely is helping to create a lot more win-wins, better matches happier companies, happier people, people who stay with those companies for longer, become more productive. I mean, it's just, it's just a win-win all around. So let's flashback if we can to 2022 last year. And I believe that recruitment marketing.com surveyed its audience about what your audience felt were the top impactful changes to recruitment marketing. Yes. And before we jumped on the recording, you shared with me sort of the, the headlines for the, for the top five. And what I'd like to do is kind of throw each one of them at you and have you respond with a little bit more insight about what that means, how it impacts high-volume hiring some, some Julie thoughts on it et cetera. And, and then we'll get to the horror story. So <laugh> right now, so you're double, you're, you're you're double tasking right now. It's like part of your brain is like, okay, what can I share? What would be okay? But okay. So number one is as far as the the changes to recruitment marketing is requirements for pay transparency in jobs.
Yes. Oh, this is a big one. Well, you know, to in truth, the it, I wanted to survey the audience on what they thought were the most impactful changes. Cuz every year something happens, something happens, new things happen, and come in and, and make it more challenging to do the job. Pay transparency, really, Colorado, let's give them credit. They were the first ones. Yes. they were the first one to mandate that it, it, it'd be put actually in the job posting. So while other states had done some transparency laws, no one had until Colorado in 2021, but then more states started to come on with those laws in 2022. And what we're seeing right now, right is that localities are creating, so not even whole states, but just cities like New York City, but not New York state. So this has become really challenging.
So this took, number one, the requirements for salary transparency in jobs is what our audience said was probably the most impactful change to the job, because it, it is more than just, okay, let's, you know, publish the j the, the salary on the job. Well, salaries usually have ranges. And the minute you put that salary out on the job, it is public to the world. So that means all kinds of people can see that not just the job seekers, but also your competitors <laugh> your employees. And now that creates a lot of ripple effect to the impact. So employees inside the organization might be saying, how come I don't make as much as that job <laugh>? I do the same job. So internally, companies had to figure out how they were gonna address that because of this change. As well as competition, right?
If your competition can see what you make, they can try to out outbid you really by disclosing a higher compensation and winning over that talent and really competitive marketplace. So this, this definitely has, has made up an impact that is just compounding in all kinds of different areas. What makes it even worse though is that it's not uniform. It's different requirements in different places. And I just think that yes, this was a big impact in 2022, but it's not gonna go away. We're gonna be playing whack-a-mole with this for probably a few years until there is some kind of uniformity at a national level.
Yeah, no, here, here, and I, i, it, I see this very similarly to some of the privacy laws, right? You've got GDPR in, in Europe, you've got the C C P A in California, and there are other privacy laws that are either already in place in other countries or about to be in place, like in the us By the end of this year, there might be a dozen different privacy laws in general, they're all kind of the same, but the nuances can be quite different. And in order to comply with one law, at times, you might be violating another. But usually what it means is that there's sort of like a standard, if you meet the highest standard, you meet them all. Oh, I like that. And I think that our, our friends at, at Zuna and indeed have done a really great job with requiring their customers to either provide those salary ranges or if the customers won't, then they go ahead and estimate that and put that onto their job postings. And I think a lot of the people that you surveyed probably were pretty shocked <laugh> that that's what's happening at college recruiter. We've been doing that for a few years. We have some customers occasionally who say, Hey, this salary ranges are that you're using for our position, that, that that's wrong. And the answer is, just give us your actual data. We'll put the, we'll put the actual numbers up there and then we won't have wrong numbers. And I think three years we've lost one customer be because of that. I
Absolutely credit you for being an early adapter here. And what you've done at college recruiters,
Disclosed that <laugh> No. It, you did it before. It was the law before it was mandated. Yeah. and you, and, and I know, you know, from conversations that we've had, you did it for the right reasons, right? And that Yeah. And that's where this comes from. So I know a lot of people are saying, God, this is hard. We gotta figure this out. But yes, it is for a good reason. We have to figure this out because this is the, the, the reason why these were put into place is because there is a horrible experience that people go through a job search and we should be more upfront about what the expectations are. This is a great way for us to eliminate bias you know, women being paid you know, less than men, and those in minority groups being paid less than that. Like, let's be fair with, with pay, pay equity, that's what this is about. So I really love that you got, were such an early adapter to this. But I, I really look forward to the rest of the world getting on that train
<Laugh>. Yeah. Well, and, and although you and I right now are physically like halfway across the country from each other, we'll we'll do a virtual hug cuz we are certainly on the same page here, <laugh>. So number number two on, on the list of the top five innovations in TA technology, and I bet this is one where there's a lot of high volume impact.
Yeah, we got a lot of I'd say micro information that came into this. But at the macro, this did take number two on the most impactful thing in recruitment marketing 2022, that will, again, this will carry on. This is not going away. But innovations in TA tech you know, having just gone through the pandemic and in a way of work has changed. There is so much change that needed to happen to technology now that's existing tech advancing itself. This is also, you know, adding new features and things. So it's not always about new tech. It's sometimes about new abilities within inside of technology. But yes, there's new tech too. <Laugh>, I mean, just look at chat G B T entering, right the world, right? And us figuring out how we can use it in different ways in recruitment marketing such as writing job descriptions everybody's favorite pastime, right? <Laugh>, <laugh>.
So this, this is gonna continue and I'm glad that it is because each advancement is advancing the whole industry. But every advancement in technology is a new skill. You need to learn a new thing. You need to make sure that you can you know, integrate into your process. And as well as, you know, as the bar keeps getting higher and higher with technology, it does mean the comp, the, you know, the competition to be able to have those seamless experiences is rising. So everyone is constantly chasing after what's new, but also trying to catch up with what's already on the table. So this, this will not go away and for good reason,
<Laugh>. Yeah. And, and one of the things I love about, about the advancements in TA technology is that for decades it was all about efficiency. It was all about removing humans from the process. And depersonalizing, what seems to have been happening in the last couple years is accelerating how fast we move from one stage to another to make it more likely that that person gets the job rather than less likely we have to interact with them. And yes, you know, it, it's, it's, I think it's really improved the candidate experience. A lot of, a lot of it, not all, but, but a lot of it, it's who wants to sit around and wait for six weeks to hear back if they got a job, if they can find that out in six days. And from a company perspective, if you can tell that person yes, in six days rather than six weeks, much more likely that they're gonna start with you. We'll be back right after this break. Welcome back to the high volume hiring podcast number three on the list, the rise of TikTok in Talent acquisition. And so before I let you talk about this, I, I'm assuming that we're talking about TikTok, not like my feed, which is basically full of Diva Huskies <laugh>. But, but but more recruitment oriented TikTok.
Well, TikTok, I mean, how can you ignore it? Right? It's all over the news about the incredible growth. I really took off in 2022. And what that led to is, I mean, it was in the headlines and the billions of users and v or shall I say, millions of users with billions of views each day. Yeah. So with all that traffic activity and attention, it, it took media spotlight. So that then led to you know, what, what I often call the hippos, right? The hi, the highest paid person's opinions, <laugh> <laugh> that come marching into the office and say, we need to get up on TikTok, right? Let, let's figure out how to get our business on TikTok because everybody craves audience. So you fish where the fish are, let's get up on TikTok, but not understanding the media. It's not a Facebook, it's not a LinkedIn, it's more like a Netflix.
So it's entertainment media. So this was very different type of media than is typically used in recruitment marketing. It's more of an employer brand play than, it's not exactly a place you're gonna go post a job. So this made this big desire. Everybody wanted to be up, but nobody knew how <laugh>, they didn't quite understand the media. And then that made it really challenging. Now, those that understood it and were able to get involved with it had seen tremendous results. So that only, you know, built the fire to say, well, how do we also get those results? But this is not an easy form of media to, to get into. Unless you truly understand it, it's a creator marketplace. And you can't just go tap someone on the shoulders, you know, and grab an intern and be like, great, build us a TikTok strategy, right? It's more than that. And it just wasn't understood enough. So this definitely was something that people were clamoring to understand more, to involve recruitment marketing. It can absolutely be used, but it's very different. So there was a lot of the votes that this was pretty impactful as people were struggling and finding success with it. But it was a new medium introduced to us.
It's definitely much more than what I thought in the beginning, which is, this is just another YouTube. And cuz early on I saw loads of videos that had clearly been produced for YouTube corporate career sites. And, you know, they were, gosh, three minutes long, which doesn't sound like very long, but on TikTok, it's an eternity. There's no way that somebody's gonna watch a three minute video on TikTok <laugh>. I see loads of sponsored videos in my stream from DoorDash, 12 seconds, 18 seconds. And it's just, it's, it's just very, it's like, you know I'm, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm delivering for DoorDash as a side hustle and I'm making an extra $200 a week by working six hours, whatever, find out more. I mean, that's it. And then move on. And then, and then I get to see the, the, you know, the Husky complaining about having to wait for three minutes for dinner. <Laugh> <laugh>,
This is our future though. Listen to what you said. Three minutes was an eternity. 16 seconds, right? We have to learn to deliver in a much more compressed way. People don't have the time and there's too much noise out there. So this is a great medium. I do think that we'll see a lot of other types of medium like this that get introduced that we have the potential to use. But everything is advancing so quickly. There will always be a need to learn new skills and new mediums that are out there.
Yeah. Very, very snackable. Our snacks are becoming much smaller and much less and much more frequent. Number four on the list, this one definitely caught my attention. And that is increased executive level attention to ta. And I've heard you talking about this on the, on the Chat and Cheese podcast with that, that you're a regular, which I don't know if that means that you've done something really horrible in this life or another life for you to be a regular on the Chat and Cheese podcast, but, but it is what it is. I, I I I, I kid it's, it's awesome that you're on that regularly. The but the executive level attention to TA is this, is this how is this impacting the, you know, the, the high volume, the employment branding folks
Yeah, the for good and for bad here, right? So executive level attention really started to come in to ta. Often TA was viewed as this cost center, right? Like, oh, we gotta hire people to grow <laugh>, so how much is that gonna cost us? But it's not looked at as like a revenue driver as like sales, oh, if we hire more sales people will make more revenue. So that's, it's usually viewed in that way, and that often makes it difficult for TA to get investment and budget and grow and make their case for all the things that they need to do to advance. But that kinda changed. And what really helped, I think are all the business news headlines that started to roll out talking about all the talent shortages, because it wasn't just the TA leader going to the executive and saying, we are struggling to hire.
It was the news, talking about how industries are struggling to hire and how an entire industry is crippled. A supply chain is broken because we cannot get the workforce needed to keep it functioning. As companies started to pay attention to this and realized this is not just a problem I have, this is a bigger problem, the companies that are going to be able to continue to grow in a growth market are gonna need the workforce to do it. And if everybody's having that problem, my competitive advantage can be that I invest in this and make this work for us. So as executives started to bring TA to the table and say, how can we first make sure we're protecting our business and our own supply chains and our own ability to deliver on our products and services, let's stay in business, but then let's advance our business by investing in getting the best talent.
And that became a competitive play that a lot of executives wanted TA at that table, how can I help? How can we invest? They were definitely more involved paying attention more to what could they do? Bringing both the employer brand and the consumer brand together in a lot of cases. And this made for great storytelling. And the great resignation, right? Companies felt it in the first quarter in 22, as people were walking out the door, they're like, how do I hold on to my people? How do I get more people? This, this absolutely became essential for business. And I think that you'll see a lot. I don't think this is fleeting. I think that the view of people and how important they are to companies and their success, I think that that's gotten more attention. And I don't think it's gonna go away. I think it's now where it may not have always been viewed as so critical it will be now.
Well, and this, this might be an example of, of you being more glass half full and Mimi being more glass half empty, because I'm not so sure that this is gonna stick around. But we'll see. Quite frankly, if I had to put money on it, I would put money on it with you. Because you're looking at this a lot more than I am. I think I'm just a little bit more cynical about how, how long, 10, 10 years from now, is there gonna be the same level of de tension? I don't know. I hope so. Last one, number five, frontline worker shortage. Yes. Yes. All the, the so-called essential workers, the, the signs outside the nursing homes, calling them heroes and paying them $9 an hour, I assume that's what we're talking about here.
Oh, yes. Well, so frontline worker yes. This, this includes a lot of hospitality, a lot of food industries, but also nurses and educators, right? We, we are a talent shortage. And when you look at the places that we're experiencing the greatest talent shortages right now, they are the people who suffered significantly during the Covid 19 pandemic. They are the people who you know, lo lost their jobs because of a hard stop, right? <Laugh> and and, and that I'm sure has left very permanent scars that won't just go away on people in their view towards the future and their stability in their work. Nurses and educators were feeling significant shortages in those areas. And again, these are people who had to adapt to great change in their work environments. And they still had to push through to care for humans, right? The children and, and then the, and the people in the hospitals.
The, we already were feeling some shortages, but this is significant. So we had lost a lot in the pandemic that did not come back, right? So we already had a shortage and then things went backwards. So now take the fact that we're in a growth state right now, and demand is high. We need all those workers and they're not all coming back. So this is pretty significant. I don't think it's gonna go away quickly. I mean, there's, there's ways to solve this. You know, we all start having more children. We embrace immigration more. Like there are ways to solve this that are not easy. But it will not just go away on its own. It's, it we are gonna continue to struggle to fill roles that work on frontline. And there's understandable reasons why these workers may have different view towards their work, but there's also this need to be able to value them for what they're really bringing to the table.
Because with, without having frontline workers, we don't have the services and, and the products that we expect to have as consumers. And we know this, we're feeling this, we're feeling these shortages, right? I go to my local restaurant and it's closed on certain days of the week. Now it's not open every day. You know, you go to the hospital and you're gonna be in the ER for a couple hours to before you're seen. And, and, and that's, that's the way it is today. So we as consumers are, are definitely feeling the inability for companies to staff. So there's gonna be a breaking point here at some point where companies are gonna have to figure out where efficiency is found, and it's not on the compensation to the workforce. So I'd like to see compensation elevate and better experiences and more value be put to these workers so that we can get them back into roles where they feel more purpose and they have financial stability.
Yeah. And Amazon did this really interesting study that I think was intended to be internal, got leaked, but really valuable, where they basically just simply on the issue of compensation, they showed that, you know, like in the Phoenix market, if we pay $18 an hour, there are x number of people who would be willing to consider the job. And if we go to 19, 20, 21, 20 20 $2 an hour, all of a sudden that labor supply greatly increases. And I don't think that a lot of employers have really grasped that. It's not about just like stealing employees from your competitors or getting them to say yes to you. And instead of some, but, but literally more people will enter that industry if the pay goes up, you're expanding the pie. And, and, and that was something that you know you know, the folks at Amazon are recruiting at the scale where they can really see those numbers and, and a company that might be hiring 50 people for a call center, it's a little bit harder for them to measure. So before we leave off, I, I promised you slash threatened you by asking for a horror story about the industry, maybe one of your jobs. What what can you, what can you share with us to end on a lighthearted note? Because horror stories are always so lighthearted,
<Laugh>. I was gonna say, what am I gonna tell <laugh>? Oh God, I ha I have so many and I'm trying to make sure I'm not you know, throwing anyone or anything under the bus on this one. It's,
It's just you and me on this call. Nobody else is listening. <Laugh> <laugh>.
Oh, where do I start a horror story? Oh, well, I mean, one that I just repeats all the time. I'll tell you one of my, my favorite things that I've had to, you know, I often have to call, I get to do the job of telling 'em people their babies ugly, right? <Laugh> and in the nicest way possible, <laugh> in the nicest way possible. So companies will bring me in and, you know, say, Hey, you know, we, we have an objective. I wanna improve the, on this objective. How can we help? So a big one that a lot of companies have brought me in on is, you know, we, we wanna attract more diverse talent. The, the number one, and I've done this many times is I would pull up their career site and I'd say, so let's say I'm diverse talent, right? Show me where I belong in this company on your website.
Mm. And I have done this with like high executive leaders from like Fortune 500 companies and say, show me, you show me on your site where I belong and they can't find it. And they're navigating the pages and they're like, there must be some representation somewhere. I don't see it, do you? Right? And that right there, having them go through that exercise creates this really uncomfortable moment where they, they then realize themselves, oh yeah, it starts right here where I'm not even representing on my public facing website, you know, and I'm walking around the office, I'm like, I see you have talent here, right? Like, wh why aren't you showing it? Right? Look at your website and people are in three piece suits, and then look at your office. They're in sweatpants, <laugh>, like, you're not selling your authentic image on, on, on the website. So that is one I'd say I'll share that. That's in a, I've had a lot of very uncomfortable moments, but I take a little joy in those because, you know, it leads to real change
Abs. Absolutely. Yeah. No, those are, those are hard conversations to have to, for sure. So as we're leaving off Julie, for listeners who wanna contact you or learn more about recruitment marketing.com, rmc how should they do that?
So you can follow our page on LinkedIn. We're constantly putting out new information and news updates and alerts through LinkedIn. You can find me Julie Callie on LinkedIn if you wanna connect with me directly. But if you subscribe to recruitment marketing.com we keep you informed on the latest information of what's changing in the industry, the best tips we help elevate and celebrate others in the industry. If you're interested in contributing and you have great content that you wanna see out in the world, feel free to reach out to us. And we're always looking for sharing the voice of others to help the greater good for all of us advance in, in this industry.
Awesome. And I was an early subscriber. I read everything that comes out. It's, it's awesome. And for those who don't know, Julie, it's Kat, Cali is c a l l I look her up and subscribe, subscribe early and subscribe often. Thank you, Julie.
Thank you Steven.
Thanks for joining us today on the High Volume Hiring podcast. I'm your host, Stephen Rothberg of job search site college recruiter. Each year we help more than 12 million candidates find great new jobs. Our customers are primarily Fortune 1000 companies, government agencies, and other employers who hire at scale and advertise their jobs with us. You can reach me at [email protected]. The high volume hiring podcast is a co-production of Evergreen Podcast and College recruiter. Please subscribe for free on your favorite app. Review it. Five stars are always nice, and recommend it to a couple of people you know, who want to learn more about how best to hire at scale.