Retaining Vet Staff and Providing Growth Opportunities with Neda Panuska and Paige Allen

Mary Schwartz:

Hi, and welcome to Simple Interrupted, a podcast about radical veterinary change. On this episode, we welcome two passionate individuals with well established careers in their involvement in the veterinary industry. Neda Panuska, recruiter and CVT who works with Blue Heron Consulting as an operations coach. And Paige Allen with Purdue University College of Veterinary Medicine. Let's hear from them on retaining staff and growth opportunities within clinics.

Neda, Paige, thanks so much for being with me today. I'm really excited to discuss retaining staff and growth opportunities within clinics for staff. But first, I'd like to hear from each of you a little bit about what you've been up to lately and your involvement in the veterinary industry. So Paige, why don't you kick us off?

Paige Allen:

Thanks Mary, for having us here today. As you said, Paige Allen. I'm with Purdue University's College of Veterinary Medicine. I am a registered veterinary technician. I have been since way, way long time ago. I think I'm 37 or 38 years in the profession. I've been at Purdue most of that time. I've worked in the large animal hospital. Love anesthesia. I have my associate's degree in veterinary technology. I have a bachelor's in business administration. And I have a master's in educational technology. I helped Purdue University develop our veterinary nursing distance learning program about 20 years ago. I am the immediate past president for the North American Veterinary Community and I am excited to be here today to talk about my profession.

Mary Schwartz:

Excited to have you, Paige. I'm really going to enjoy getting your perspective on a lot of these things. And Neda, I'd love to hear from you as well. What have you been up to and give us a little bit of your background.

Neda Panuska:

Thanks, Mary. My name is Neda Panuska. I work with Blue Heron Consulting. Currently I work as an operations coach, helping coach practice managers through learning how to better manage their practices. I also work as a recruiter. Former practice owner, have a bachelor's in business management and MBA. I've worked in the trenches in veterinary medicine, worked as a registered veterinary technician for ... And Paige, I stopped counting at 20 years. I'm not admitting any more than that. I think that that's about it though.

Mary Schwartz:

Yeah. Well, you guys have got a couple of years on me for sure. I like to say that I stopped counting at 10, but 20 is definitely a mile marker and so is 30. So thank you guys both for everything that you've done for our industry. It's folks like you that we need still out there fighting for the changes that are so necessary right now.

Today's topic is going to be around retaining staff and helping them grow within the clinic. This is one of my favorite topics. I love to see people learn and get new skills and utilize those skills. The excitement that comes along with that and the fulfillment that comes along with that is just amazing. So how can a clinic create a team environment and show appreciation to their team and offer them opportunities such as this?

Paige Allen:

One of the things I think about, and I really look at it from an education perspective because it's where most of my experience is at and I think about students in the classroom are really not that much different than students in the workplace or people in the workplace because we're all still students, lifelong learners, all of that stuff. And I think the hardest thing is that everybody is an individual. And so while somebody might enjoy time off, some other people want more money. And so it's really sitting down with each person one on one and trying to determine what motivates them, where do they want to grow, how do they want to become a better person in their practice, in their place. That takes a lot of energy and a lot of time to build that. And it's also, I think, not something that you can sit static, that you can just do it once and then you never do it again. Because everybody changes as they grow and continue learning.

Neda Panuska:

I agree completely, Paige. You never know what stage of somebody's life that they're in. They could be where work is their safe place and they want to go to some security and know what's going to happen there. Or it may be that they're in a stage where they want to grow and continue to change and evolve and just expand their horizons. So you really got to know where they're coming from.

Mary Schwartz:

Yeah. And create an environment that fosters both of those different things and celebrates both of those different things. Because there's no advantage or disadvantage to either but it's good for people to know that they can come in and have their routine, but then also have those same people celebrate the folks that are looking to grow. There's value in each.

Paige Allen:

Well, I just had a conversation with someone today and I was talking about that very topic. About as we build teams, how do we build a better team? And I think you hit the nail on the head. Celebrating the differences and supporting each other in our weaknesses. I may not be great at XYZ, but I may be great at ABC, whatever that might be. And how do we support each other and celebrate and build a cohesive team and not continue to ... I hate to say tear each other down, but we do do that a little bit, I think, where we're, "That person can't hit a jugular vein to save their lives." Well, but they can hit a cephalic 110% of the time. So let's support each other in what we're doing and be that team where the patient's welfare and care and the client's wellbeing and care and our wellbeing and care is all a part of that formula.

Mary Schwartz:

Absolutely. I definitely think that in the medical industry, in any medical industry, but in veterinary medicine as well, there are a lot of type A players. You've got those people who are perfectionists. Hard on themselves. They want to be the best. I may be a recovering type A player. But it's important to realize that you can't be the best at everything. And it's important to realize that a really good team is the team where you're good, where they fail and they're good where you fail. And that's what makes it all click together. So I really appreciate that, Paige.

There are definitely times it doesn't click together though, as we all know. And one of those can really be around training. So we're already in an industry where we're super understaffed. There can be a real disparity in knowledge levels between the most senior staff and the most junior staff. And sometimes it's like the snake that eats its tail. You can't train people because you don't have time and you don't have time because you can't train people to help. So how do we break that wheel, so to speak, and create programs or environments or what can managers do to help create a good training program?

Neda Panuska:

I think there's a challenge there because you're right, we're shorthanded. How can I possibly train somebody? We have to prioritize the training, even if it means lightening our workload for the day. Fewer appointments on the first few days. Having a person assigned and responsible for training that individual, not just throwing them in and going, "We'll get you trained. Sure, it'll happen." But having a responsible party who knows they're going to be beside that person all day long until they understand what those tasks are.

Paige Allen:

Well, and I think, Mary, you said it already, right? The recovering type A. Because it's easier for me to do it myself than it is for me to take the time to help someone else learn the process. And Neda said it perfectly also of we've got to take the time to do that or we're never going to get off this hamster wheel. There I am using the little animal analogy. We're not going to get off the hamster wheel if we don't take the time to do that. So I think building that time into whoever's mentoring that new person. And I think that that mentoring process is so important. And it's not just a title and name only. It's really you have to get people who are willing to mentor, who we've then mentored on how to mentor. You can't just say, go be a mentor because what does that mean? What does that look like? And how does that look different for every person and what their needs are?

Mary Schwartz:

Yeah, absolutely. And Neda, I want to go back to what you said a moment ago about slowing down and giving people room to train. I think that this is something that definitely comes from the top down. How do you have a conversation with your doctor where you say, we might lose a little revenue by cutting two or three appointments today, but in the long run we're going to gain a lot of revenue by retaining our staff and by having people appropriately trained to care for patients? How would you guys approach that conversation?

Neda Panuska:

Ooh, that's a sticky one. But necessary. It really is a matter of if you don't have the properly trained hands, you are never going to reach the capacity that the clinic can help the community. You have to have everybody on hand and trained. You have to prioritize it.

Paige Allen:

Totally agree. And having that conversation about, we may lose a few dollars today, but once we get everybody up to speed, then we can have extra appointments that we weren't able to have before. And I I'm going to hop on my little soapbox. I might do that once or twice today. As an educator, my little philosophy is we train dogs and monkeys and we educate people. Now, I recognize that in clinic sometimes it's training people to do certain tasks and I think that that's appropriate. But I also think if we can take the time to educate people on why they're doing what they're doing, then I think that also brings us back to better patient care. If people have some level of understanding of what they're doing, why they're doing. Now, again, I think that goes into the whole whose job is what and what career ladders you have and how that's all defined. But that's another whole topic I think we might get into here in a little bit.

Mary Schwartz:

We'll dip our toe in that pool, Paige, I'm sure. But I can definitely say that that is such a huge piece, knowing why you're doing what you're doing. I spent the first couple of years of my career having not gone to school or anything and just being an on the job trained technician. And the difference between when I got that book education and could pair it with the real life experience was just enormous. Now I understand the disease processes. I understand what I'm looking for in blood work. I understand what behaviors and what pain looks like. And there are things that I didn't know before and so that's something that's enormous. Giving people the why in anything.

Paige Allen:

And I think the other piece of that is that it empowers people in their jobs to have that ability to grow and learn. Those that want to. We already talked about those who want to. And being able to make that leap and have that light bulb go on and know that when they're looking at Fefe, the dog who's in pain and they're recognizing those pain signs and they can advocate for that patient with the veterinarian that I understand physiologically what's going on and Fefe's not doing well, and we have to address that because Fefe's not going to heal if we don't get her some pain meds.

Mary Schwartz:

Absolutely. So how can we start generating these conversations in clinic? How can managers have these conversations with their staff about creating growth opportunities and opening up new career avenues to their teams? How would you suggest going about that?

Neda Panuska:

I think the first step has to be an open conversation about where they are and where they want to be, where their interests are, where their passion is, what gets them out of bed in the morning. Even establishing what was their why for starting in veterinary medicine in the first place.

Paige Allen:

And I think the other question I guess I would throw out for us to ask is that ... And somebody asked me this the other day and I was like, "Oh my gosh, it's so true." How many of us when we go to work in private practice have an actual job description?

Mary Schwartz:

I've created plenty of job descriptions for other people.

Paige Allen:

Right. But I went to my first job in practice and it was, you're a veterinary technician and you do everything. You answer the phone, you dispense medications, you do this. And so we don't have job descriptions and then we don't have a clear, how can I grow? The more skills I get or the more knowledge I gain, can I get more money? Can I get a different title? So I think for me in some ways is going all the way back to the basics and creating job descriptions. So maybe you have a CSR one, two, and three, and you have a vet assistant one, two, and three, and you have a vet tech one, two, and three or whatever. And they all have very clear defined expectations of how you move through that job ladder or that career ladder or that thing. But again, it's that hamster wheel. I'm too busy. I don't have time to create job descriptions. So how do we help do that? How do we do that as a profession?

Mary Schwartz:

I could guess that Neda could help quite a few clinics make their job descriptions for practice managers out there.

Neda Panuska:

I have written many a job description, and you're absolutely right, Paige. Knowing where you're starting, what's expected of you and what the future looks like as you continue to grow and expand. And I would take that one step further in saying, does the practice have any continued education goals for its team?

Mary Schwartz:

Yeah. I mean that's very true. With aha, those clinics, they're supposed to have continuing education goals for their staff, but outside of that, is it provided, is there a stipend every year? Do they send the team to a conference here and there? What does that look like? I think that's huge. And I can remember my first conference. It completely redouble my excitement for veterinary medicine. It's a game changer. So what an easy way to completely just excite your staff and make them ready to come back to work and apply new things that they've learned.

Paige Allen:

On the backside of that you go to a CE conference, you learn a whole bunch of information, you bring it back to the practice. How do you disseminate that information? So if I come back and I get told by my doctor, "Well, we can't do that here. We're not doing that." Well, then it squashes anything I have. So my other piece I think about, and Neda, maybe you guys do these things. When I come back from a conference, I present to the rest of the staff, this is what I learned, this is what I think is super cool, and I think we can do it here. We just might have to tweak some things. And so it again, brings us all back into that team environment. It's just that big circle of life.

Neda Panuska:

That's where we all have to be supportive of each other and our ultimate goal of helping the pets in our community.

Mary Schwartz:

Oh yeah. Having that north star for the entire clinic that everyone's working towards is pretty key in starting any program like this for sure. I would love to hear y'all's opinions on having rigid job types within your practice. I think as we've seen with the pandemic that we've had to adopt new ways of

doing business. And that could include things such as, I've heard several clinics have created a digital manager that does their online booking, does their Facebook, does their social media, does whatever. How important do you think it is for clinics to be agile in the way they approach jobs when they are having these conversations with folks about their hopes and dreams and career goals?

Neda Panuska:

I think that for any clinic, clinics constantly face change. Change in our profession is the normal instead of the exception. So for a clinic to be absolutely rigid in their way and never look outside the lines, it's not a great way to grow your business.

Paige Allen:

I think you're absolutely right that we have to be agile and that the only thing constant in our life is change. So what does that look ... So I guess when I talk about job descriptions, I don't know that I think about something rigid. I think about, for me, a job description is what are the basics that I do? And then how do we reward people for going above and beyond? So as I do evaluations of my staff and I talk about meets expectations. And meets is not bad. Meets is a C. That means you've got the knowledge, you're doing what you're supposed to do, but everybody wants to be an exceeds. So how do I define that? So now I'm tying in not only job descriptions, but performance evaluations and how often are we doing those and having those open conversations about I want to do more, I am doing more. How am I bringing in money? How am I benefiting patients in the practice? So I don't see, for me a job description as a rigid. I see it as a guideline and basic and then how do we grow from there? Neda, what do you think? Am I crazy?

Neda Panuska:

No, I think

Paige Allen:

I might be.

Neda Panuska:

A job description is a great place to start, but it's not the end result. You can have somebody who takes an interest in, say, pet insurance, and they become the champion of that idea. Bring their ideas back to the clinic and train everybody. Well, you're not going to go run, update the job description for that particular position, you now have to be an expert on pet insurance. No. It's that particular person's passion to share that information.

Paige Allen:

And then we have to figure out somehow how to reward that in a way that's meaningful to that person. I don't know that money's meaningful for everybody. Maybe you did a great thing and you get an extra PTO day, or maybe you get a gift card to Starbucks for the rest of the year, or I don't know. But I mean,

figuring out ... I don't want people to feel like production is the answer either. If you do X, Y, and Z, you're going to get ... I say that a lot, X, Y, and Z. If you do X, you're going to get Y. Because I think that's not what it's about, but for some people it is. The reward system is important. So what does that look like too? And again, very individual and takes time to build all those things.

Neda Panuska:

Absolutely.

Mary Schwartz:

So we'll pivot just a little bit, and we don't have to pivot for too long, but I think sometimes we forget that associate veterinarians are part of the medical team. And I don't mean that in obviously we forget they exist, but we forget that they have growth and career advancement needs just as much as our CSR one wants to get to CSR three. So what kinds of growth opportunities can we create for associate veterinarians to make sure that they are also leaving work fulfilled every day?

Neda Panuska:

The thing that jumps immediately to my mind is expansion of skills. Is there anything that they would like to learn to add to their repertoire, which would also be another offering for the pets? So if you have a doctor that's really interested in alternative therapies or orthopedic surgery or fill in the blank, supporting that with whatever kind of continuing education is needed to move to that next level.

Paige Allen:

Yeah, I think absolutely Neda's nailed it on the head there. I think that in the olden days of veterinary medicine, back when I started, so much was I'm going to be an associate and then I'm going to buy the practice and then I'm going to be the owner. And not everybody wants to do that anymore. But finding where their passion and interest is and how do we feed that and keep them motivated and happy and bringing it back to the practice and what we can provide for our patients.

Mary Schwartz:

Yeah, absolutely. It only ever expands the care that you can provide by letting your doctors run with their interests, which is never a bad thing. How do you diversify your business? Offer everything.

Neda Panuska:

Yep.

Mary Schwartz:

That might be a little bit of a overstatement, but what are the benefits for your team of gaining licensing and additional credentials, and what are the benefits to the business of your team members gaining licensing and additional credentials?

Paige Allen:

For those of us who are intrinsically motivated, the learning itself is going to motivate us. For others who want to provide ... It's going to make me a better technician. It's going to make me a better doctor if I have these skills. But for others it might be I get a pay raise or I can see more patients, or I can see less patients because I'm specialized in some small area. And I hope, again, I'm going to say for the millionth time, always for the best of the patient and what we can do better all the way around. And then I always used to say best for the patient and the client. And now I also think about what about the team and what about my mental wellbeing and what about the mental health of my team? And how are we contributing when we allow people to grow in the way that they want to grow and they're happier and they want to stay and they want to own what they do every day.

Neda Panuska:

Paige, you stole all of the good ideas there. We have to find something to argue about but this isn't it. I think anything that improves an individual, improves the practice, improves the profession, improves the outcome for the patients.

Mary Schwartz:

I couldn't agree more. I don't know how we're going to find conflict in this podcast. I think we're just going to have to all agree. I want to ask you guys about Banfield, because Banfield offers technicians the ability to get their certification without any long term commitment to Banfield. They pay for the technician to go to school, get their certification. I believe it's Penn Foster, but I could be mistaken. And they are then free to go. And I think that this scares a lot of private practices because they say, "Well, I've put all this money into this person getting their education and they're not going to have a commitment to me afterwards. After they graduate." How can we overcome this fear and do what we need to do to make people better? Because it's the right thing and because it inherently does help our business. And because the way to keep someone around is not to make them sign a contract saying I paid for your school so you owe me your life.

Paige Allen:

I think that we have to break that cycle when people are in school. Because I think ... Well, the whole profession. Ugh, I'm going to get all philosophical on you. The whole profession is about, I had to go through this and now you have to go through this. Why? Did that make us better people? When we worked 24/7 and we took every emergency call and we ... Did it really make us better? And why does that make that right? Because I don't want people to go through some of the things that I had to go through. Do I want to share my experience and my lessons? Yes. Do I recognize that people don't always want to hear it? Yes. But I think that why do we keep doing the same? I guess that's the question for the whole profession is why do we keep doing the same thing, recognizing that it's broken and we just keep doing it?

Mary Schwartz:

Sounds pretty close to the definition of insanity to me. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Neda Panuska:

I think we're focusing on the wrong side. We're looking at how do I keep this technician, how do I tie them to me and let me get that contract out that they can't break. Versus creating a workplace where they don't want to leave, where they're going to tell their fellow technician students, "Hey, I have got the perfect job. Do you need a job? Because we're hiring." Where you've got people actually wanting to work with you rather than having to claw them in and make sure that they can't leave with a contract.

Mary Schwartz:

I love that, Neda. A couple of podcast episodes ago we talked about culture and about hiring, and I believe it was Rebecca Rose who said that the best thing you can do to attract new people is to make the current people that you have at your clinic your biggest advocates. They should be the ones out there telling their friends, talking to the other students at the tech program, et cetera, saying, "Hey, I found the unicorn clinic of unicorn clinics. You got to come work here with me." And if you have your team being advocates for you, you become exponentially more wealthy in the future in terms of the employees that you'll attract, than the cost of that person's school. Just off the top of your head if a clinic's like, "Okay, I'm bought in. I'm going to start offering more opportunities to my team.", what are some ideas you could think of off the cuff that a clinic could present to their staff and say, "Hey, if any of these interests you were more than happy to pay for you to go get ..." Fear Free certified, for example.

Neda Panuska:

I absolutely love Fear Free. Cat Friendly's another great one that provides a lot of value. Everybody loves it when you don't get bit and your patients are happier. There are so many. This is the one good thing that came out of covid. There are so many opportunities now online for continuing education. I just did a few hours on controlled substance handling. Didn't know there was that much I didn't know after all of these years. I definitely learned so much information, but so many opportunities available because of covid that we can go online and see so much continuing education for free. There's also the Frank program, if I can name names, that's just a communication program. Love that one. Paige, what are some of your favorites?

Paige Allen:

I'm NAVC, so I'm going to talk a little bit. VMX is amazing. But I would also talk about our institute, which happens in April, May every year. And for the first time this last year ... It's a week long immersive. And for the first time this year they did an anesthesia where it was a team of a DVM and a vet tech, and they did it together and they had conversations about who does what where. And they're doing two more things next year. And I'm going to not remember, I think it's the ECC and I can't remember what the other one is. But they're immersive week long things that people can go and learn. But I think about dentistry. What if I have an interest in dentistry and I want to do that? How do I get more information about doing more?

And what states can I do extractions? What states can't I do? But what if I have a passion for puppy and kitten classes and socialization? And I think part of the struggle we have as technicians is we're not very good. We have an idea, but we don't really think about the whole process and how do we work through.

How do I go to my veterinarian and I say, "I want to do a puppy class and I need this space on this night and it's going to cost this much and I'm going to charge this much and then we're going to get puppy wellness. They're all going to have to be vaccinated so it can be part of it." And putting together a whole business plan. I don't know if that's the right word, but a whole plan of what is it going to cost and at the end, what is the clinic going to make from it and what are we going to gain? And taking that to the veterinarian instead of just going and saying, "I want to do a puppy class. Will you let me do it?"

Mary Schwartz:

Oh yeah. What a resume booster too to really be able to say, I developed this puppy training program at my clinic from budget to implementation to scheduling to all the pieces of it and that's huge. I want to call out, Paige, what you said about the workshops, the summer workshops at NAVC. One of the last continuing education opportunities I did as a CVT was I went to the veterinary nurse ultrasound class at VMX. And I loved it. It was amazing. But I think one of the most important things about that class was that it was 100% technician taught. And it's so much easier to see the career paths and the growth that you could have as a technician when you see other people having forged ahead and are already doing it and you're taught by those people. I think that it's enormous to have that representation in those classes. And it's extremely helpful to see those folks and hear from them and get taught by them. It makes it all seem a lot more possible for sure.

Paige Allen:

I've been for several years off and on an organizer here at Purdue with our veterinary conference, and I'm a huge advocate for technicians teaching technicians. I mean, I think there are some topics where it's great to have DVMs in there, but I think technicians teaching technicians is absolutely the way to go because we are the ones who know what is important in our role as a veterinary technician or a veterinary nurse and nursing care for those patients.

Neda Panuska:

I love, Paige, when you mentioned that there's a anesthesia class that's a doctor technician team. I would love to be an observer in that class.

Paige Allen:

Yeah. Yeah. I heard it went great. I wasn't there, but I did hear it went really well and was well received.

Mary Schwartz:

It does sound really amazing because the reality is that a doctor technician should be a team in surgery and not one person over the other or vice versa. I recall many surgeries where my doctor was deep in surgery and I would be the one monitoring anesthesia and telling them when something's going wrong that they didn't realize yet, and it should have that conversational teamwork approach. So I love that. That's starting from our CE all the way down to the clinic.

Paige Allen:

And I think it's that building that trust. I think that's other piece of information that often we forget that I as a technician, I have to build trust with my DVM, that they know what I'm doing. They have an understanding. They're not questioning me when they ask me why do I want something. They're trying to build that trust. And same with me asking a question about, "Well, why are you prescribing this? I'm just curious. I want to learn." And so showing that we can trust each other and that when I bring information to my veterinarian about a patient, that it's accurate and not being afraid to say, I don't know the answer, or I don't know what's going on and I need your help. And not trying to BS your way through because that doesn't build trust.

Mary Schwartz:

You can't really fake it till you make it in medicine.

Paige Allen:

Correct. And I'm really proud of myself for not swearing.

Mary Schwartz:

I don't know. I think we would've let it slide.

Paige Allen:

You wouldn't have beeped me out?

Mary Schwartz:

No, not this time. Well, I would love to hear from both of you before we close out, if there was any one thing that you could say to a clinic to push them over the edge to start really evaluating their growth and career advancement opportunities for their teams. Neda, you've seen so many clinics, you understand how this affects the staff and how it affects the business. Paige, you've seen every corner of the business for a really long time and you understand how important education is. So what is that message that you would impart to really seal the deal?

Neda Panuska:

To the clinics I would say this is essential. It's important. This is not a we can put it off for tomorrow. This is a task that needs to be addressed now.

Paige Allen:

And it sounds kind of hokey, but I would say if you invest in the people, the people will invest in you. And that's, I think, the biggest thing that will help us grow.

Mary Schwartz:

Yep. Hokey is usually true.

Paige Allen:

Hokey.

Mary Schwartz:

Yeah. Well, is there anything that I haven't asked either of you today that you would like to share or that you want to make sure we cover?

Paige Allen:

I think the only thing I would say, and I am not great about knowing all the resources out there, but I think we as veterinarians and veterinary technicians are not educated or trained in how to run a business, how to hire people, how to fire people, any of that. How to build a better positive culture. And so find people or organizations that know how to do that and let them help you. Don't feel like we have to do it all ourselves. Right? Get the experts in.

Neda Panuska:

The resources are definitely out there. That is for sure. I've helped many a new practice manager get back on the right track and provide the resources that they need to make sure that they have a good footing and know what their duties are and understand how to do them.

Mary Schwartz:

Yeah, that's huge. There's definitely that shift sometimes when you're promoted from within as a practice manager where you're like, "Wait, wait, wait. I can place catheters all day long in anything. You give me a half pound puppy and I can put a catheter in it. I have no idea what a P&L means and how to read it." So you have to learn, right?

Paige Allen:

Right.

Mary Schwartz:

Yeah.

Paige Allen:

And the difficult conversations, all that stuff.

Mary Schwartz:

Oh yeah. The difficult conversations are so much harder than a P&L.

Paige Allen:

Yeah.

Mary Schwartz:

So how can listeners follow you for more information or reach out to you if they would like to?

Paige Allen:

So probably for me, the easiest one is my Purdue email address, pjones and the number two, @purdue.edu

Neda Panuska:

[email protected] And that's [email protected]

Mary Schwartz:

Great. Thank you both so much for your time today. I really appreciate both of your perspectives.

Neda Panuska:

Thank you so much, Mary.

Paige Allen:

Thanks Mary.

Mary Schwartz:

I'd like to thank Neda and Paige for being our guests on today's episode as well as you, our listeners. We appreciate your support and hope you'll subscribe to our podcast, Simple Interrupted on your favorite podcast app, and share it with your fellow veterinary colleagues. This has been a co-production of Evergreen Podcasts and Pet Desk. Learn more about Pet Desk and how we're helping clinics guide their clients to better care at petdesk.com. A special thanks to the Pet Desk team and to all of the veterinary professionals out there. Thank you for all you do for our pets. As well as the Evergreen production team, producers Leah Haslage and Nijah Golliday and audio engineer Gray Sienna Longfellow. I'm your host, Mary Schwartz. Thanks for listening.

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