As Told By Ginger

Speakers: Hannah Leach & Audrey Leach

[Music Playing]

Hannah Leach:

Welcome to Sleepover Cinema where we analyze the shows that created the collective unconscious of those who are little seal girls living in the real world. I'm Hannah Leach, a writer, musician, audio producer, and deep influencee of one Ginger Foutley.

Audrey Leach:

And I'm Audrey Leach, director, editor, producer, and number one consumer of Cheez-Its in the tri-state area.

We are the sister duo, also known as Too Pink Productions. And we haven't stopped thinking about our favorite onscreen experiences since we first saw them.

Hannah Leach:

We're going to explore the good, the bad, and the nonsensical of the media that first inspired our love for pop culture in an attempt to answer the question, is this stuff actually good? And at the end of the day, do we really care if it is?

Audrey Leach:

Today we are talking about Nickelodeon’s As Told by Ginger.

[Music Playing]

Hannah Leach:

It's been a long time coming, but we are finally here doing our very first episode of Sleepover on a TV show.

Audrey Leach:

And we're starting on maybe one that's not the most popular, but it should be the most popular.

Hannah Leach:

To me it's the most popular for sure. I'm sure everyone's like, why isn't it Lizzie McGuire? Why isn't it The Suite Life of Zack & Cody?

And my answer is because this show raised me for real. It's kind of like the first episode was Sound of Music because it raised Audrey and this one is As Told by Ginger because it raised me.

So, we have a whole new format here. It's similar to the movie episodes, but there are some different little moments and I'm excited for you to experience it with us.

So, question for the culture.

[Music Playing]

Speaker 1:

The culture's super sick right now. It's actually really bad, period.

Hannah Leach:

Which came first? The popular girl IRL or the popular girl in TV shows? What do we think?

Audrey Leach:

It has to be in real life. You feel like it's not even a real thing anymore because they've taken the trope so far that it's like a trope of a trope of a trope of a trope.

Hannah Leach:

Yes.

Audrey Leach:

But yeah, there's always been the prettiest and/or wealthiest girl, so-

Hannah Leach:

That's really true.

Audrey Leach:

I think it is based in reality and kids naturally feel inferior to others. Yeah, I think by the time it was in our childhood, it was already quickly getting out of control.

Hannah Leach:

It was an industrial complex by the time we encountered it. Yeah, I think you're right. I think it's also that humans are animals. There's pack mentality, there's hierarchy built into things.

I will say that I tried to research this question, I was googling origins of the popular girl trope or whatever, and I couldn't find anything. There were only stereotypes about women in general.

So, I'm sure there's an academic out there with a journal that's about this specifically and I feel like we could find out from watching teen movies as far back as they go. I think that that's really interesting.

Audrey Leach:

So, what's your answer?

Hannah Leach:

As a primary source, I can say TV shows and movies make a huge impact on developing brains. And I really subscribed to the popularity industrial complex as a small child. And I know for a fact that this show was a big part of why.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah, I think it's like, has the popular girl in a TV show created a mean girl? Absolutely. But mean girls and/or popular girls existed before.

Hannah Leach:

Okay. So, that's our answer for now.

Alright Audrey, are you ready to learn the facts about As Told by Ginger?

Audrey Leach:

Yep.

Hannah Leach:

So, as told by Ginger premiered on October 25th, 2000, on Nickelodeon. I would've just started kindergarten. Audrey, you would've been in your first year of preschool. So, we were quite little when this came out.

Production of the show ended in 2004 with some episodes to this day remaining unaired on U.S. TV. The airing of the show ended on November 14th, 2006, after it had been booted off of Nickelodeon proper to Nick Tunes, in 2004.

There were three seasons, 60 episodes and each episode ran 24 minutes long. It was produced by Klasky, Csupo who also produced Rugrats. And I'm thinking they had to have been involved with Rocket Power too, just based off of how the characters look.

And the series was created by Emily Kapnek who is a hero to me personally. But she created this show but she also wrote on Suburgatory, Parks and Rec and The Wild Thornberrys.

She was a playwright first. She was 28-years-old when the series got created, which is scary to me but good for her. And she won a screenwriting competition in 1997 and that ultimately led to the creation of the show. So, shout out to Emily, a star among us.

Audrey Leach:

There's a really good podcast called We're All In Between, actually. And she did an interview on that. I listened to it. It was good.

Hannah Leach:

Do you want to read the synopsis?

Audrey Leach:

“Ginger Foutley, she, along with her friends Darren Patterson, Dodie Bishop and Macie Lightfoot all try to rise from the position of school geeks as they solve many conflicts that come their way.

Luckily for Ginger, the most popular girl in school, Courtney Gripling has taken a liking to her and often includes her in her social plans. She is intrigued by her “gingerisms” as Courtney calls them.

However, Miranda Killgallen, Courtney's right hand woman, makes sure that she is not bumped down from her position thanks to Ginger.

At home, Ginger records her lively adventures in her diary. Her little brother Carl is often scheming with Robert Joseph also called “Hoodsey” Bishop in his own side plots and her mother Lois is always there for advice to which Ginger is always open to listen.

The series was noted for its storylines, character development and the fact that the characters change outfits each time a new day comes, and they also grow older.”

Hannah Leach:

The only people that don't change outfits are Carl and Hoodsey. Which makes sense because they're gross.

Audrey Leach:

Hoodsey actually does change outfits, kind of a lot. In the episodes we watched, well, it's more just variations but he does, he does.

Hannah Leach:

Okay, so Common Sense Media obviously very relevant to a Nickelodeon show. The show was rated four stars and appropriate for ages seven and up and the little slug thingy is junior high girls are models of self-esteem and then parents need to know the following:

Parents need to know that the main characters are three intelligent, well-adjusted junior high girls who are comfortable with themselves. Ginger's mom, Lois provides an admirable role model as a single parent who balances work and family life and is a strong force in her kids' development.

The two coolest girls in school poke some fun at Ginger and her friends, but it only serves to reinforce their strong self-esteem, which is a consistent theme of the show.

Families can talk about the pressure to be part of the in crowd. How important is it to be accepted among the so-called cool kids? What if being cool meant doing or saying things at others expense? Which group of kids on this show would you rather be friends with? Why?

Parents also can talk about Ginger's relationship with Lois. It is a lot of questions and they're all extremely valid.

And then as for audience opinions, I tried to find critic opinions and strangely enough I really couldn't find anything from the time that was a review. I kind of found things that were like tonight this show is premiering or like promo things than anything else. But I did give it a shot.

So, I just went onto Twitter and looked up the name of the show and saw what people were saying. But the vast majority of people are saying that As Told by Ginger is their emotional support show, their comfort show, the show they put on when they're trying to fall asleep. And I can definitely understand that, one person said it's like a boost of serotonin before sleep.

And I watched five episodes last night before I went to bed and can fully agree. And then there was also a good dose of anti-Dodie sentiment because a lot of people think she's a shitty friend. And while we didn't see her be particularly shitty in the episodes we watched, she is a really ungraceful social climber.

Okay now for the cast. So, I only expanded upon the people that had other credits that were particularly relevant to us. But all of these people have had really sustained voice actor careers but not necessarily a ton of named roles.

So, things for video games, things for direct to streaming or direct to home video type stuff. Nothing that anyone our age would really be familiar with probably. So, I just put stuff in here that I thought would be relevant.

We have Melissa Disney as Ginger, no relation to Disney-Disney. We have Jeannie Elias as Carl. She was Janis in Over the Hedge. We have Tress MacNeille as Hoodsy. She was in the Simpsons for a long time, like did some role on the Simpsons for like 5,000 years. She was Dot in Animaniacs and Linda in Futurama plus a ton of other things. And her voice is super familiar when you're watching the show, so it makes sense that she's been in so many things.

Then we have Aspen Vincent, really cool name as Dodie. We have Jackie Harris Greenberg as Macie. We have Laraine Newman as Lois, Liz Georges as Courtney, and of course Cree Summer as Miranda. And we've talked about Cree summer before because she was the voice of Penelope the dragon in Barbie, Rapunzel. She is kind of the iconic black woman voice actor of the cartoons of our childhood.

So, she's in Atlantis: The Lost Empire, she's in Rugrats as Susie Carmichael. She's in As Told by Ginger. She was in Codename: Kids Next Door, The Buzz on Maggie, My life as a Teenage Robot and many, many more things.

She's a very interesting figure in pop culture and I'm just happy whenever I hear her voice in anything.

And then we have Kenny Blank as Darren and Kath Soucie as Blake. And you can definitely tell that she was Phil and Lil on the Rugrats while she's doing her performance as Blake Gripling.

Audrey Leach:

We also have to mention that Jennifer Coolidge is a voice.

Hannah Leach:

Yes.

Audrey Leach:

In the final episode of the entire show.

Hannah Leach:

Yes.

Audrey Leach:

Which is more like a TV movie. It's over an hour long.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah. And we will definitely talk more about her performance in that episode when we get to talking about that episode.

So, in terms of our memories of the show, what do you remember, Audrey?

Audrey Leach:

Everybody remembers the theme song, obviously. I remember thinking that the animation style for their faces was insane. They all look crazy. I always wanted to skip Carl's parts. Watching it now, I do think he's funny. As a kid I was like I have zero time for this, and I could have done without his storylines.

And then the other thing that I remember is just more that it's associated with you and your perception of yourself, kind of like in school or that in my mind it's linked to your need to have an enemy, in elementary school.

Hannah Leach:

Someone established this.

Audrey Leach:

I think it was mom.

Hannah Leach:

It's totally mom, of me needing to have a rival. And is the answer that I need to have a rival or that I simply had them?

Audrey Leach:

Well, it is a choice. Unless you get punched in the face, I think.

Hannah Leach:

Well, the interesting thing is that Ginger does not partake in any rivalries at all.

Audrey Leach:

I know but she's very observant and she writes, I don't know, I think there was just enough things in common.

Hannah Leach:

Yes.

Audrey Leach:

But yeah, the actual mean girl dynamic in this show is really different. And we'll talk about that in the second half. It's not your typical thing.

Hannah Leach:

Okay. I have so many memories with this show. I have a really funny one about you, but I'm going to save it until the end of the memories because I just remembered about it.

First thing I remember is that this show similarly to Unfabulous which we'll definitely get to, is like journaling and songwriting propaganda of the highest order. I started journaling in first grade. In fact, I'm looking at my first grade journal right now. It's really funny the stuff that's in there.

Audrey Leach:

You have to read something, you have to.

Hannah Leach:

It's really sweet looking first of all. I got this at a book fair, and it is like a reptile skin situation but it's blue and green and it's awesome. And there's dragons. It's supposed to be dragon skin.

Okay look, it says, “This journal belongs to Hannah Leach.” And it has this giant drawing of a dragon. Okay, here's one selection, “Dear journal.” But journal is spelled J-O-N-I-L. I'm just going to read it as if it's actually discernible but it's very much not. “Dear journal, I went to the book fair. At the book fair, I got you. Audrey got a Clifford book. I hope she likes it. Love, Hannah.”

Next paragraph, “My imaginary friend went on a date and guess what? She kissed. I can't believe it.”

Audrey Leach:

What do you mean?

Hannah Leach:

What do you mean? I am scandalized by the fact that my imaginary friend kissed someone on her date. I don't know what to tell you.

And then I wrote down, “My dad is going down. My mom is cool.” I'll have to send you an image of this.

Audrey Leach:

That's terrifying.

Hannah Leach:

It's so good.

Audrey Leach:

What did dad do?

Hannah Leach:

Wait okay, I have one more I'll read. I could keep going but this one's about dad. “Today my dad overslept.” Does not align with his narrative.

Audrey Leach:

That has literally never happened.

Hannah Leach:

“I am having a good morning. I'm watching Rocket Power. Twister is very happy. Now Rugrats is on, this episode is very interesting. My life is pretty hard, because almost every day I have school. Now Spongebob Squarepants is on.

I need to send you a picture of this because the way I spelled Spongebob is so fucking crazy. Big journaler. Clearly a big journaler in 2001. She also is a big songwriter, and so I absolutely wrote my own little songs in a little notebook and I actually was looking at those recently too because the notebook's at mom and dad's house.

Okay guys, so had I turned one more page over in my first grade journal, I would've discovered that I absolutely plagiarized a song from As Told by Ginger in my journal.

So, this is what I wrote, this is a song I wrote, “There were copper colored ponies and the air that smelled like rain and the moon was out at daytime, when I first learned your name. Then the cloud started talking to you and then it feels like I was home. In this parcel place, I don't have something, something.”

And then, “You hold my heart as one all along,” which I'm pretty sure is a line from a song on the Shrek soundtrack. So, that's where I was in 2001. All of this makes sense.

The song I lifted was from the Camp Caprice TV movie. And I think the way that this show feels very much like a representation of high school but isn't quite all the way there really resonated with me because I fully understood everything that was going on but it still felt kind of cool and grown up but not in an edgy, rude, Disney channel way, in a really earnest way.

I could keep going with the memories, but I have to share the one about Audrey, this is also from when we were living in Boston. So, first grade preschool and so when we were at home in Ohio, our babysitters would always be our grandparents.

But when we lived in Boston we would have more normal babysitters or random people, like a girl or someone's nanny or whatever.

So, we had this babysitter come over, her name was Kate. And Audrey, as we said last episode was a really anxious child, a really, really anxious child. I don't know if you're going to remember this, but I feel like you might.

Audrey Leach:

Definitely not.

Hannah Leach:

Audrey was a super anxious child and mom, and dad went out one night, and it was the night that the As Told by Ginger, Camp Caprice TV movie premiered. And Audrey was so anxious about mom and dad leaving and just so worked up. She was sobbing and then she threw up on the carpet.

Audrey Leach:

What?

Hannah Leach:

While I was watching the movie. Yeah, you threw up. I remember the texture of the vomit.

Audrey Leach:

Ew, I don't remember this at all.

Hannah Leach:

I remember because you were so little but she had to clean it up and you were like so terrified and I was just like, I'm just trying to watch my As Told by Ginger movie, I don't know what's going on. But yeah, you threw up.

Audrey Leach:

That's really rare. I've only thrown up maybe four times in my life. Maybe.

Hannah Leach:

That was one of the times. I remember it.

Audrey Leach:

That's funny.

Hannah Leach:

Very clearly.

Audrey Leach:

I didn't even know that one happened. I thought I only had thrown up twice in my life.

Hannah Leach:

Really?

Audrey Leach:

Yeah. One was-

Hannah Leach:

When have you thrown up?

Audrey Leach:

Just being sick one time. I had the flu as a kid. And then peanut, one of my peanut reactions. I thought that was the only two times.

Hannah Leach:

Wow You've never thrown up from drinking?

Audrey Leach:

Nope.

Hannah Leach:

Wow.

Audrey Leach:

Not once.

Hannah Leach:

That's really impressive. Alright, so how we are approaching the second half of this episode is that we picked the first episode, the last episode and an interesting episode just from the course of the show to watch and take notes on.

However, I ended up watching a couple more just because I love this show and I wanted to make sure that I saw maybe a few more emotional beats. So, that's what we did. We have lots of notes and synopsis and whatnot and I cannot wait to get into it. All of As Told by Ginger’s on Paramount Plus. So, you can watch it there.

[Music Playing]

Okay everybody, welcome back and it is time for us to walk through these As Told by Ginger episodes. We're going to start with season one, episode one.

But before we get into that, I just have to say there was a pilot made that never aired on TV. Well, that's not true. It did premiere on October 9th, 2015, on the Splat, which is a deep random cable channel of Nickelodeon. But the animation looked significantly weirder.

So, if you thought the regular show looked weird, the original pilot was even more stylized. So, you can be grateful it didn't look like that, if you don't like the style.

So, it was produced in 1998 and it did not air until almost 20 entire years later. So, that was the truth for that thing. And this will also kind of be a recurring theme with the show, which is that Nickelodeon didn't have a ton of reverence for it in its airing order, in its continuity. And that was kind of to the detriment of everyone's viewing experience but-

Audrey Leach:

They just didn't know what to do with it. Of course, it doesn't make sense that they would let it air so out of order when literally it's the only cartoon ever made, where it actually mattered that it was aired in order. Whoever green lit the show did not follow through on I guess their passion for it. I don't know, they kind of just let it falter.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah. I don't know. I think it is way smarter than they signed up for, probably. We're going to get into it. But okay, let's start with season one episode one, Ginger the Juvey, premiered on October 25th, 2000. Audrey, what happened in this episode?

Audrey Leach:

“Ginger is invited to Courtney's birthday party but doesn't know what to get her. Miranda tells her that stealing the enter sign from the bank would be the perfect gift. Ginger, Dodie, Macie and Darren agree to do it, but Miranda calls her father, officer Killgallen and reports the theft. Meanwhile, Blake steals Carl's most prized possession, his petrified eyeball.”

Hannah Leach:

As you were watching this, what were some of the things that just stood out to you immediately?

Audrey Leach:

Well, I was thinking about how rare it is for our cartoons to focus solely on social interactions. There's nothing extremely supernatural going on or they're not doing insane shit, even though it's a cartoon and they could be doing insane shit. So, there's that.

Also, you immediately notice the racial diversity within the extras even, just the random people walking by. There's just a real effort. Obviously, all these characters are being drawn, so it's very intentional. There is nothing about this that is unintentional and I appreciate that.

Miranda always reminds me of Naya Rivera.

Hannah Leach:

Very similar energy. I can totally see that.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah. Santana's character in Glee and Miranda and then also just Naya herself, they're similar to me. I just think it's funny that she gets arrested in the … not the pilot but the first episode of the show. Like what?

Hannah Leach:

I know. I had the feeling as I was watching it that I have seen that episode I think a zillion times. I think that that episode got replayed a lot on Nickelodeon when it was actually airing. Which makes sense because you didn't need any context to understand what you were seeing. So, that struck me.

I laughed out loud multiple times watching this. One of the lines that made me laugh was when Miranda's like, “Well, it's a gift that every girl would want.” And then Macie's like, “An interest yielding IRA account. That's what every girl wants on the inside.”

I rewound it because I was like, “Is that really what she just said?” That was really funny.

And then also when Miranda's like, “Give me a call after school, that's when I get home from clarinet.” But like said it in such a menacing way, that made me laugh how loud too.

This show is such a comfort show. This episode comforted me so much in so many ways.

Audrey Leach:

What I was kind of alluding to earlier with the mean girl dynamic is that Courtney does not behave like a head mean girl. Miranda's the one who's behaving like the head mean girl, but Courtney's richer maybe.

So, she's got the top spot and it's like in what world do the most popular girls constantly interact with the weird girls? It's like kind of strange but it's because Ginger's in this quasi-popular position, Dodie and Macie are not popular. They're quite weird. But Ginger isn't.

Hannah Leach:

What I was just thinking, and this is a recurring theme of the show is that Courtney chooses her as a friend because (she doesn't put it in these words), Ginger is so authentically herself and unconcerned with, I don't know, being any particular way for anyone to the point where somehow Courtney is not secondhand embarrassed to be affiliated with Macie or something like that. Who is legitimately so weird.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah.

Hannah Leach:

But also there's something in this show too that we’ll end up talking about more but like as much as extreme popularity and glow ups and shit like that are a central part of the story also extremely bizarre things are just as important. With Carl and Hoodsey and also with Macie being really weird there's a lot of romanticizing of extremely bizarre shit in this show.

Audrey Leach:

There is. Yeah.

Hannah Leach:

At the time when we were like little girls, we were like ew. But now watching it, it's like oh there was actually a lot more to this than I realized, as watching it.

Audrey Leach:

When I listened to the interview that Emily did about the show, she basically was talking about how she never wrote the scripts as though it was an animated show.

When you can really, really tell that, it's just it doesn't follow any of the basic tropes that other cartoons of its time did. And she's taking everyone with the seriousness of a live action prestige on HBO, like prestige show. I like that.

I think for sure though season one, episode one, they hadn't really hit their stride yet. Obviously, it's the first episode. But the things that make the show as great as it was, are not in the first episode.

Hannah Leach:

They just had to set up all the dominoes, basically. I also just have to say, I know he'll come up more, but I love Blake Gripling.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah.

Hannah Leach:

This little fancy boy. Like everything he says, he's like, “Well Carl, I was going to,” whatever. I love him. He's probably my favorite character.

Blake Gripling:

“No, no. A million times no, I say. Absolutely not.”

Hannah Leach:

I want us to be able to talk about moral and emotional takeaways from each episode. But as Audrey just said, it kind of really hadn't hit it’s stride yet. So, I think what we took away from this is this is a really interesting naturalistic world we are about to be watching. So, with that, we are moving on to season two, episode 17, And She Was Gone.

Audrey Leach:

Season two, episode 17 premiered on June 6th, 2002. And here's the summary of the episode:

Ginger writes a poem about a girl who wants to disappear for a competition. When Ms. Zorski reads it, she believes Ginger is suicidally depressed and makes her see the school psychologist.

Meanwhile, Carl tests his vanishing powder on Noelle Sussman who he thinks is a nobody. But when Noelle really does disappear, Carl deeply regrets it.

And this episode was nominated for an Emmy award in 2003. It didn't win, sadly. It's kind of off-putting, it's kind of dark.

Hannah Leach:

It is.

Audrey Leach:

And creepy.

Hannah Leach:

And the reason why it's dark and creepy if you don't remember this episode is that, whenever Ginger is reading her poem, we get dropped into this fantasy realm that's black and white. And the protagonist of the poem is like this super gaunt, Tim Burton looking character and it's her walking around a little town and walking in liminal space and there's birds and there's puppet strings. Right?

Audrey Leach:

Yeah.

Hannah Leach:

Before we get into our notes, I just want to read the poem to you guys and let us know if you heard this would you think that a eighth grader is on the brink of S word? Let's find out.

“She chose to walk alone though others wondered why. Refused to look before her eyes cast upwards towards the sky.”

Voiceover:

“She didn't have companions, no need for earthly things. Only wanted freedom from what she felt were puppet strings. She longed to be a bird that she might fly away. She pitied every blade of grass for planted they would stay.

She longed to be a flame that brightly danced alone. Felt jealous of the steam that made the air it's only home. Some say she wished too hard; some say she wished too long.

But we awoke one autumn day to find that she was gone. The trees they say, stood witness. The sky refused to tell. But someone who had seen it said the story played out well.

She spread her arms out wide, breathed in the break of dawn. She just let go of all she held and then she was gone.

Poor dear. We didn't even know you were suffering.

What?

Man, if I'd have known you were like clinically depressed, I might have gone a little easier on you.”

Hannah Leach:

That is the poem in question.

Audrey Leach:

I kind of feel like her mood was really good when she was writing it and that kind of threw me, she was feeling really inspired. She was like, “Oh, this shit is good.” She was happy when she was writing it. And I think for me that was like a bit of a difference. She's not suicidal but she's just talking about the fact that it's okay to have these feelings. You know what I mean?

Hannah Leach:

Yeah.

Audrey Leach:

And people around her are concerned but I kind of felt like it wasn't quite dark enough. I don't think I would be concerned knowing what her disposition was like at the time.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah. I did not remember this episode when we decided to do it, I thought that this was going to be a lot better than it was. I thought they didn't really go very far, but I guess for-

Audrey Leach:

They can’t.

Hannah Leach:

The time, yeah.

Audrey Leach:

What other cartoon would even sort of get this far? Nobody else.

Hannah Leach:

Well, it's also interesting too because the B plot is that Carl gets this vanishing powder that makes this girl in his class disappear. He thinks he made her disappear. That's definitely not a coincidence.

Audrey Leach:

No. They go together.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah. But I'm not really sure what we're supposed to get from those two things together.

Audrey Leach:

Basically, the link is that he's kind of projecting this idea that like Noelle could have been depressed or something and she could have died. I feel like that was like the idea, is like she disappeared.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah.

Audrey Leach:

And he also had like slowly taken a liking to her during the process of seeing if she would disappear or not.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah, yeah.

Audrey Leach:

And so, he's like, “Oh, there’s this girl who I thought was a nobody I actually really like and admire her from afar.” And then he thinks he killed her basically for like a second.

Hannah Leach:

And also on top of that, they get this vanishing powder and they're like, “We want to try this on someone.” But who will no one notice is gone.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah, exactly.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah. And then, so they choose her but then they start observing her and she's really fucking weird. And as we were talking about earlier, there's also romanticizing of the weird. So, Carl's like, “Damnit, that could have been the love of my life. But then I disappeared her instead.” And that is-

Audrey Leach:

That is the link.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah, that is the link. It's just interesting because the whole Carl thing is about finding the gross, nasty thing and finding the beauty in it and the appreciation of it.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah.

Hannah Leach:

And I'm just happy that that's there in this show. And he's really funny.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah, he is funny. He, he talks like a middle-aged person kind of.

Carl Foutley:

“With Blake and his whole family at the hospital, we don't need to resort to blackmail. We can simply borrow his telescope for the weekend and then return it before he ever knows it's gone.”

Speaker 2:

“That's a total violation of the new toy code.”

Carl Foutley:

“What new toy code?”

Speaker 2:

“And I quote, no decent humor shall play with another man's toy until the new toy recipient has had the opportunity to play with it himself. Especially without asking, you wrote it. Circa second grade.”

Hannah Leach:

There's a couple other things. This kid Brandon who's in-

Audrey Leach:

Yeah, I wrote that too.

Hannah Leach:

I wrote down, “Who is gay ass Brandon?”

Brandon Higsby:

“Mrs. Gordon, have you ever taught a student who’s adorable little pet became famous? Because sometimes if your pet’s really, really adorable and special, it can get famous.”

Hannah Leach:

He has rosy cheeks, and he is really silly. And I'm like, “What is this supposed to be?” I love him though.

Audrey Leach:

Do you think that Noelle is supposed to be on the spectrum? I feel like she kind of is, but I sort of love that it's just unspoken. It's just like yeah, this is just how she is.

Hannah Leach:

I also think that there's something really interesting in this show just to go back to the Carl thing, where now that I'm thinking about it, the second episode of the show, he's best friends with this old lady who dies. And then he's friends with Noelle, who's a very weird person.

And then in the ending you can see that he's been like a pen pal to all of these prisoners, all these incarcerated people. And it's just, he has no interest in “normal people.” All he cares about are these people that have been scrapped by society, those are his people. And it's done in such a earnest way. Again, I just love it when shows are very sincere with their characters and that's what he does. And I love it.

Audrey Leach:

I was going to transition into a different topic but it's kind of for a different episode. But I loved and this is another thing that was in the Emily Kapnek interview. She was talking about how much fun she had writing the songs for the show and being so heavily involved with it.

She actually has written theme songs for other shows too. It's something that she does and they turned the poem into a song and put it in the credits for this episode.

[Music Playing]

And I love that. And that comes back in a later episode too. What they do with music is very like of the time.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah. I wrote down, song at the end was fierce.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah.

Hannah Leach:

So, agreed. And then I had two other small notes, which is Miranda's outfit when she's in the cafeteria having listened to the poem, no notes. Perfect.

And then also when Courtney starts dressing up in emo drag and crying performatively everywhere. That was really funny to me.

Audrey Leach:

That's why I was reminded of Hope Is Emo.

Hannah Leach:

That makes sense.

Audrey Leach:

Because that's what it reminded me of.

Hannah Leach:

What ended up being the results of that poll? Because I voted in it.

Audrey Leach:

Literally eight people knew about it and 40 people didn't.

Hannah Leach:

That is kind of unbelievable.

Audrey Leach:

It was obscure relatively.

Hannah Leach:

I guess.

Audrey Leach:

That's not a widespread thing in the way a lot of other viral videos were. I just remember that we had it on our iPods.

Hannah Leach:

I think it was a video podcast or something.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah, it was.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah, wow. If you remember the episode with I'm a Little Seal Girl Living in the Real World, it is just as good as you remember. It is just as funny and bizarre as you remember. Cannot recommend watching it again. There isn't that much to deeply comment on, but it's extremely iconic.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah. It's like the only episode that I actually remembered.

Hannah Leach:

It's because it's so bizarre that it burns into your brain forever. Maybe we'll put in a little clip of her singing it here. It's just so good. I cannot recommend that one enough.

[Music Playing]

So, this episode we weren't originally going to talk about, but I hunted it down because I felt like we needed to watch it.

So, this episode, the next one is season three, episode 13. It's called A Lesson in Tightropes. It was broadcast on October 23rd, 2016, on the former teen Nick Hour on the Splat, which is now nicknamed Nick Rewind. So, this was extremely disrespected, obviously.

“Darren finally decides to tell Ginger the truth and he breaks up with her. Darren is talking to another girl on the side. She returns home where her friends try to comfort her until she eventually cries herself to sleep.

When Lois comes to check on her, she finds her daughter unconscious with a fever. This all turns out that Ginger is having an acute appendicitis attack and she is rushed to the hospital where Dr. Dave, her future stepfather, saves her life by performing an emergency operation.

As she is recovering, many of her friends and family come to visit, including her father, Jonas. Carl becomes worried that their father's appearance will rekindle Lois's feelings for him and ruin her relationship with Dr. Dave.

Meanwhile, Ginger reflects on her relationship with Darren and Orion, her band mate comes to reveal his true feelings for her.” A lot happens in this episode.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah. It's some of the most mellow dramatic cartoon television I've ever seen in my life. Maybe the most mellow dramatic. It has all the high drama again of an HBO prestige show. Like fuck Euphoria. At this point, like Jesus.

It starts with her being like — it's so solemn and there's voiceover and it's like, “Have you ever felt like things in your life were just off but you don't know why?” And it's like slow motion and she passes the girl that Darren is secretly talking to on the side in the hallway and they just pass each other.

And then they cut to Darren who's squeezing out tears in the corner of the bathroom stall saying, “I have to tell, I can't keep lying to Ginger.” And the context of Darren too is that they are childhood best friends. In her friend group, Darren is a part of it, so-

Hannah Leach:

And there's also a big part of it too, which is that when you first meet him, he's very geeky, has head gear, very much not a hottie, but over the course of the show he does become an extreme hottie and he's on the football team and everything. So, that's another element to the dynamic.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah. And so, they've been dating and I actually do kind of want to go back and watch the kindling of that relationship because we miss that. But it's so intense and then she immediately has this medical emergency.

The underrated part of this episode or that they don't even mention is like when in a cartoon ever have you seen the dynamics of a ex-husband and a new father, between Jonas and Lois's boyfriend? When have you ever seen those dynamics explained in a children's cartoon?

Carl does not like Jonas, his biological father. He is on the side of the new BF, not Jonas. And so, just the whole thing is so rare and it was so wholesome when he was outside of the hospital room and Ginger was in there with her biological parents and Carl was outside with the new boyfriend and held his hand. It was so cute.

Hannah Leach:

It was really cute. I feel like, for us for example, our parents are together. They've been together, they will be together. Knock on wood.

For kids who grew up with separated parents and for kids who didn't grow up with separated parents, it's really positive for everyone to see a non-traumatic representation of that kind of dynamic because we wouldn't know, we never would've known that from our own experience. And it's just so gentle and loving the entire-

Audrey Leach:

Yeah.

Hannah Leach:

The entire thing.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah. And it's just like, it might feel tense or a little uncomfortable, but everyone at the end of the day is an adult and does handle themselves as an adult, regardless of their feelings. So, there's just nothing overly toxic going on. But you can still sense the realistic tension of the situation.

Hannah Leach:

We also have to talk about the fact that at the beginning of the episode she gets broken up with, and then she goes to band practice.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah.

Hannah Leach:

And she sings this original song that A, sounds so much like Alanis Morissette.

Audrey Leach:

Alanis. Yeah.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah. It sounds so much like Alanis, but it's so good.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah. Which was on purpose. That's another thing Emily said in the interview, it was an Alanis thing, obviously.

[Music Playing]

Hannah Leach:

This was the most emotionally touching thing to me of the entire watch session that we did, which was as she is in the hospital, fully comatose, her mom is having this flashback in her mind of Ginger as a baby and then as a toddler. And then it turns into Ginger as an adult, like in a laundromat, like reading a book. And I was like-

Audrey Leach:

It's like lady bird on crack. It's actually-

Hannah Leach:

Yeah.

Audrey Leach:

Although, the relationship between Lois and Ginger is really interesting because she doesn't have any seed of angsty teen towards her mom. I'm sure maybe they do it for one episode at some point during the show where she has a little arc with her mom, but for the most part it's just smooth sailing.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah. Which is really nice. It's really nice. Because again, this goes back to my whole thing about how I hate Disney Channel shows because they're mean to their parents, until it gets to the point where Billy Ray Cyrus has to be like, “Well, buttercup, you got to whatever.”

This show is just very … they just have a good relationship. And also, going back really fast to the montage thing. So, it's like Lois's remembering of Ginger as a baby, but then it also turns into this thing of Ginger's unconscious, all these different elements, including the emo Tim Burton looking girl from the episode we just talked about.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah.

Hannah Leach:

But the imagining of her future and everything, that conceptually to me is very impactful. That is in this play that I wrote too. Being a teenager and imagining what you're going to be like when you're older and the hope of the future and everything. That just always really gets me. So, this episode had it.

We are going to move on to the series finale. Ooh.

Audrey Leach:

Okay. So, the series finale, believe it or not, is unaired in the United States on television. Actually, I fully believe that because when did they ever pay the show respect? They didn't.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah.

Audrey Leach:

It is available though now on Paramount Plus in its full form. The whole series is. Nickelodeon had originally asked for the ending of The Wedding Frame to be changed to something less conclusive in case they wished to order more episodes.

However, perhaps due to that situation being very unlikely, the original ending was eventually retained. I don't know why they even wanted that when they clearly weren't going to do it.

Hannah Leach:

Right. They're just being rude. And to clarify The Wedding Frame is the name of the episode.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah. And here's the summary:

“Someone is trying to sabotage Lois and Dr. Dave's wedding, which Dr. Dave's mother is planning by hiring Nicki LaPorte to play the role of Dr. Dave's old girlfriend.

As Ginger is helping her mother plan the wedding, she realizes she has commitment issues and begins to rethink her relationship with Orion and her old one with Darren.

Carl and Hoodsey investigate the situation with Lois's wedding while Noelle does the same on a much more accurate track.

Also, Courtney's family loses all their fortune after Mr. Gripling is arrested.

Blake secretly asks Carl if his family can move into his house when the Foutleys move out into a high-class house, because Dr. Dave is rich.”

Hannah Leach:

This episode, I have to say is really weird for a series finale.

Audrey Leach:

I was just like mad the whole time that there was a B plot. I was like, “There shouldn't be a B plot with characters we don't know, at the very least.”

Hannah Leach:

Yeah, yeah. It was like Courtney was barely in the episode. Miranda was barely in the episode. It was like this really weird and involved B plot about people scheming to stop the wedding. And then there's a drag queen.

Audrey Leach:

Played by Jennifer Coolidge. It's this really snatched blonde, I guess drag queen whose voice by-

Hannah Leach:

Or something.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah. Or something. I don't know. It felt really weird for As Told by Ginger to do something that could be potentially extremely tone deaf or like politically incorrect. That never happens in the show. And the fact that it was a reveal, at the very end of the episode is when the wig comes off of Jennifer Coolidge's character and it's like, what? And then there's a voice lower thing.

Hannah Leach:

It was really bizarre.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah.

Hannah Leach:

It was really weird. I have to say beat for beat it was bad, but some of the dialogue was really funny.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah. The parts that were good were great, but it's like the great parts should have been this whole episode.

Hannah Leach:

I really agree.

Audrey Leach:

I don't get it, I don't know.

Hannah Leach:

The Ginger plot and I know we just said this, but she's basically grappling with her ability to trust in the episode, but that's maybe a third of the time.

Audrey Leach:

Because Darren had just betrayed her trust and so, her arc is like, “I don't know if I believe in traditional marriage,” blah blah blah. And her and Lois ultimately have like a really solid conversation about it that helps her.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah. Her mom is basically like, “Life isn't meant to be perfect. It's supposed to be messy, and it will all lead you in a positive way, ultimately.”

Voiceover:

“How did you know that Dave was the genuine article?

You can't know those kinds of things. You can only trust how you feel in your heart and take a blind leap of faith. You have to, that's what life is all about. You know, we’re not put on this earth to live perfect lives where we never get hurt and we never make mistakes.

We're put here to hurl ourselves headfirst into this crazy world. And the bruises and scrapes get along the way. They just mean you living life.”

Hannah Leach:

This episode I feel especially was prioritizing drawing Lois's boobs very high. I don't know what it is with the boob drawing on this character. It is ceaseless. Even when you're far away, it's like a far away shot, the boobs are still huge. They're borderline cubic.

Audrey Leach:

Just let it be her characteristic.

Hannah Leach:

It's like Dolly Parton level of boobs.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah.

Hannah Leach:

I just think it's funny.

Audrey Leach:

And that's the truth.

Hannah Leach:

It's like she'll move, and the little cleavage line moves. It's like someone has put a lot of thought into animating those boobs.

Audrey Leach:

And that's beautiful.

Hannah Leach:

And someone needed to do it.

Audrey Leach:

That’s a good thing.

Hannah Leach:

And we commend them.

Audrey Leach:

Other than Ariel, when do you ever see-

Hannah Leach:

Does she have a boob line?

Audrey Leach:

In a children's show? But they did give Ginger boobs. By the time it's season three she has boob lines. Her necklines are just higher, so it's not super insane.

Hannah Leach:

I feel like there are definitely like stupid Tiktoks out there of people being like, Lois is a hottie. Lois is a baddie.

Audrey Leach:

A milf.

Hannah Leach:

Utter milf. I bet there's an episode that is about that.

Audrey Leach:

I just wish they would've changed Lois's hair.

Hannah Leach:

I know, I was thinking about that too. I was like, “Why couldn't that have been snatched as well?”

Audrey Leach:

Yeah. The very, very end of the last episode is great, but it's really fast. Everything happens super, super fast and it's one of those moments where you get a jump to the future and Ginger is reading the story, it's her published short stories, As Told by Ginger, it's one of those. And you find out in that little moment that her and Darren do end up together and they have a child.

Hannah Leach:

Oh, I didn't get that.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah. Because the baby is black with red curly hair, that he's holding.

Hannah Leach:

Oh, they were like, “How obvious can we possibly make it?” And I still didn't get it.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah. They made it really clear. So, her and Darren do end up together. And then Dodie is there. Macie looks so chic.

Hannah Leach:

She does.

Audrey Leach:

And cute.

Hannah Leach:

She looks great.

Audrey Leach:

And Carl and Hoodsey look hilarious. They're like mob bosses or something. I don't even know.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Audrey Leach:

And the parents are in the back holding hands, but they're aged and it's like the ending I would expect. But I'm glad they did that because if they didn't do the flash to the future, I would've been like, what the actual fuck was that ending?

Hannah Leach:

I definitely agree. Something about those scenes as I get older, I start to feel — it fills me with an existential dread feeling because I'm like, “Oh, I am the age of the people in the flash forward scenes and stuff now.”

Audrey Leach:

Yeah.

Hannah Leach:

And the people I'm friends with now that I've known forever, they are also the future versions of themselves. It just is so weird. It's such a strange part of having grown up, I guess.

Audrey Leach:

Not that we're really grown, I still don't really see it that way, but-

Hannah Leach:

I'm not saying we're all the away, but I am 27.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah. I don't know. I think with us having had like two and a half years of our twenties also taken away, it's in a way it's kind of-

Hannah Leach:

You went there.

Audrey Leach:

It's like I'm going to give myself slack forever, actually. I'm not ever going to-

Hannah Leach:

There's no reason to not give yourself slack.

Audrey Leach:

No. There's people who try to plan out their lives. I literally have friends who still have life plans and I think it's so funny. I'm like, what? Like what are you doing in terms of a day or a year or anything? You can have life plans without a timeline. I think that makes more sense.

Hannah Leach:

I agree.

Audrey Leach:

To have a goal without a timeline. Like, I have to achieve this by this time because why would you do that to yourself? But I just think like seeing how things have gone in the past five years, why do that?

Hannah Leach:

Yeah. I feel like things are still very murky for me, but I enjoy things being murky because it means that anything could happen. The unknown is exciting.

Audrey Leach:

Yeah. There's no reason not to like it, because what's more boring than knowing what the rest of any space of time is going to be. That's the worst.

Hannah Leach:

It’s terrifying.

Audrey Leach:

That's what full-time employment is like.

Hannah Leach:

Right, right. Exactly.

Audrey Leach:

Is like, well indefinitely I know I'll be doing this on these days from this time to this time. It’s like bro.

Hannah Leach:

Actually sad. Okay, so I just pulled a couple quotes from this piece on Vice that I thought would be a nice way to conclude. This is a story; it was called As Told by Ginger was a feminist masterpiece about the trials of girlhood and it's written by Ayoola Solarin. And she did an interview with Emily Kapnek but then also wrote just some of her own thoughts.

So, this first chunk:

“It was the year that Welcome to the Dollhouse came out, Kapnek tells me via email about the creation of the show. I very much wanted to do a dark comedy that focused on how traumatic middle school can be, particularly for girls.

The social drama that your parents might dismiss as important, that truly felt like death in the moment that you were going through them. I started thinking about why animation didn't tell any stories that felt more grounded and true to life.”

And then here's another quote. So, this is a quote from one of the hosts of We're In Between, which was the podcast we were referencing earlier.

She said:

“There's an underlying message of not cracking under pressure of doing or not doing things because it's not cool. Explains Patricia Miranda, the co-creator of We're In Between, don't worry about what people say about you, be Yourself. That's what makes you cool.”

And then this last little chunk is by the author Ayoola Solarin:

“That's down to the show's success in its understanding of girlhood. Not just as a prelude to womanhood, but an ongoing process of trying to figure yourself out.

The show took the opportunity to present not just one relatable titular character, but an array of different complex kids. The characters consistently learned and grew from their mistakes, and I got to learn along with them.”

The way that this show, again so sincerely presents its characters going through things that are very relatable to kids who were our age at the time, but they weren't … it didn't feel funducational ever, it never felt like a PSA or anything.

It was just very well told stories about characters you really saw yourself in. The show made a huge impact on me.

Audrey Leach:

I think it could have made a bigger one maybe if I was just older. But I definitely enjoyed it even if I didn't always understand why maybe — like I could not analyze the show at the time to be like, “Wow, this show is so grounded and it's giving me so much more than everything else does.”

Hannah Leach:

Yeah, right. You were like, “I'm throwing up.”

Audrey Leach:

I have always liked live action shows more than cartoons and so this show is the absolute closest I could have gotten to what I like, without it being live action. So, there's that.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah, I definitely will continue to watch this series. It might become my new show to have on while doing things around the house, once I get through Love Is Blind season three, that's where I'm going to be.

Audrey Leach:

I do think you can say as far as what kind of impact the show left, there's so many cartoons now. Maybe they're not necessarily for kids, but there's a lot of adult cartoons or cartoons that everybody watches that address darker topics and they're very respected and the craft of them is-

Hannah Leach:

Like BoJack stans emerge from the mist. I just think the fact that this was so intentionally and lovingly made for young girls just makes me appreciate it even more. I definitely think it made an impact on the genre. I think for lots of girls my age out there like me, this was a big hitter and I think that it is beyond worth revisiting. I think it is worth watching in its entirety from the beginning.

[Music Playing]

Audrey Leach:

If you have any kids in your life, put this shit on.

Hannah Leach:

I wonder if kids would find it boring. I didn't find it boring, but-

Audrey Leach:

I don't think so.

Hannah Leach:

Yeah, I don’t know.

Audrey Leach:

If you look at what's on TV on the classic channels, they still play all the old stuff. The question is, are kids watching it or not? I don't know.

Hannah Leach:

So, I suppose that this brings our first ever TV episode to a close.

Audrey Leach:

We have one other type of new episode also that we haven't done yet. I'm sure you could guess what that is. Maybe.

Hannah Leach:

Yes.

Audrey Leach:

But I won't reveal it yet.

Hannah Leach:

Broadway. No, we're not doing that.

Audrey Leach:

I wish.

Hannah Leach:

So basically, if you guys have other shows that you are interested in us covering, we will absolutely open up the floodgates to that input. We are really excited to have expanded beyond just movies. So, with that being said, Audrey, take us to church.

Audrey Leach:

You can find more from us at evergreenpodcasts.com/sleepover-cinema and keep up with our latest creative projects at toopinkproductions.com. We're on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok and YouTube at Sleepover Cinema. And post a full video version of each episode on YouTube every Thursday. You can follow me, Audrey at Audrey Anna Leach on everything.

[Music Playing]

Hannah Leach:

And you can follow me, Hannah at Hannah Rae Leach on Instagram and @lanavontrapp on Twitter. And as always, you can join us on our Discord server at the link in the episode description or on evergreenpodcasts.com.

Audrey Leach:

You can check out our merch at toopinkproductions.com/shop. We still have the goods, and we also still have a code with Casetify, 15SLEEPOVER.

Hannah Leach:

And of course, if you like the show, send it to your friends, send it to your family, send it to your local podcasting professional and let us know what they think.

Audrey Leach:

What does that mean?

Hannah Leach:

That's me. I'm your local podcasting professional.

Audrey Leach:

Sleepover Cinema is a production of Evergreen Podcasts, produced, edited, and engineered by us, Hannah and Audrey Leach. Sleepover Cinema is mixed by Sean Rule-Hoffman with theme music by Josh Perelman Hall. Executive producer is Michael DeAloia.

Hannah Leach:

Someone once told me the grass is much greener on the other side. That's my Macy Gray.

Audrey Leach:

Bye.

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