Adam Kaufman: Our Host’s Story
Usually the one asking all the questions, there have been inquiries to learn more about Adam. How does he meet the people he knows? What has his career path been? And what makes him the perfect host for a podcast about success and humility?
Dave Douglas: Hi, welcome to another episode of Up2. Eight years ago, Up2 started as a live event series, showcasing leaders who are as humble as they are successful. The humility piece is extremely important as we identify leaders who can inspire others. We try to focus our interviews on the non-business aspects of their lives, and in doing so, have found there is a real thirst to explore their hearts and minds in atypical ways. Today, we're going to do things a little differently as we turn the tables on our host, Adam Kaufman, to learn more about him.
Dave Douglas: We'll talk about his background and how he found himself in a leadership role that he didn't quite feel that he deserved. We'll discuss the power in honest relationships and respect for people's privacy, and how a health scare changed his life and career path.
Dave Douglas: Next, we'll hear about how he found himself working in venture capital, his primary line of work, and how he approaches his work in that field. And finally, we'll talk about the power in keeping your mouth shut and listening more, and tips for working hard and being a family man. Right now, you're listening to the Up2 Podcast. We're glad you joined us. We'll be right back.
Adam Kaufman: Right now I'd like to take a moment to talk to you about Calfee, Halter & Griswold, a full service corporate law firm with attorneys throughout Ohio and in Washington DC, Calfee's mission has been to provide meaningful legal and business counsel to entrepreneurs and investors, private business owners and nonprofits, public corporations.
Adam Kaufman: I've referred many successful entrepreneurs and investors to Calfee knowing how well they'd be taken care of, and it's for those reasons that I would encourage you to visit their website, calfee.com. That's C-A-L-F-E-E.com. Thank you very much to Calfee.
Adam Kaufman: Hi, I'm Adam Kaufman. I've asked one of my favorite people to come in to be our guest host today, Chrissi Sanders and more about her in a moment. We're in the middle of our second season of Up2 and there's been a number of people who've asked about me, apparently, in an effort to be humble I've said too little about myself. So we're going to let Chrissi open things up today and ask a few questions. Hopefully she'll be nice to me. Know what is my background? Who am I? How did I get to this position? How do I know the people I know to be on the show? Et cetera.
Adam Kaufman: So while I was reluctant to talk about myself during an episode, I had zero reluctance once we decided to do this, to ask Chrissi to be the guest host. She's not only a journalism major, but professionally I've been very impressed with her. She's the founder of Next Play, which is a sports advisory firm. She works with a lot of professional athletes, and she has a background in marketing as well. I do want to ask her a few questions today. Maybe I'll slip those in. But for now, I will introduce you to Chrissi Sanders.
Chrissi Sanders: Thanks so much for having me Adam, and I really appreciate you asking me to do this, and I'm curious on why you asked me to do this?
Adam Kaufman: I just thought of you right away when I was trying to think of someone who was an early enthusiast for what we were trying to achieve with Up2, and I was impressed with you when we first met through JumpStart, and then we spent a little time together talking about some of your business goals. We seem to have a rapport with each other even though we're from kind of different worlds that it might be a good melange of backgrounds, two different lenses on which to look at things and talk today. So hopefully that's okay?
Chrissi Sanders: That's perfect. Like you've said, you and I have been friends for a really long time. I actually feel I've known you for like longer than we've known each other because it was like an instant rapport. So I'm super pumped to do this, because you've been a really great mentor to me throughout-
Adam Kaufman: Thank you.
Chrissi Sanders: ... This process of founding a company, which is extremely difficult, and I know some of your guests have spoken to that before.
Adam Kaufman: Yes.
Chrissi Sanders: And you've definitely advised me and taught me how to build a lot of relationships, which we'll talk about today.
Adam Kaufman: Awesome. Well, my pleasure, I'm rooting for you. I applaud the entrepreneurship.
Chrissi Sanders: Thank you, appreciate it. So we might as well get started. Welcome to your show.
Adam Kaufman: Thank you.
Chrissi Sanders: So this is probably like one of the first times you've actually had the tables turn on you.
Adam Kaufman: The first.
Chrissi Sanders: I actually think you should be on more podcasts, that's just me though, you know?
Adam Kaufman: Okay, all right. Well, if you have a podcast, I know you do, you can invite me on.
Chrissi Sanders: So just a little bit about you. You went to Wittenberg University. You grew up in Washington DC, you're a partner at Ovo Fund, you started Up2, which is this podcast and also a foundation element to it, you're very actively involved in PathNorth, and you're also an advisor in JumpStart. You've been doing that for the last couple of years and you still find time to be a family man, mentor entrepreneurs, and just be a all around good guy. So how did you kind of find your way into this world? So, where did you start it?
Adam Kaufman: Growing up in DC I thought I would spend a life in politics. You can't help but have an opinion about political affairs growing up in Washington.
Chrissi Sanders: No way.
Adam Kaufman: But I did end up in Northeast Ohio, my wife's family is in Cleveland. And I was running a nonprofit called Healthnetwork where we networked successful families. Frankly, very affluent families into the top hospitals in the world when they had medical problems. So it was up to us to know where are the best places for every possible malady you might think of, and many I had never heard of until we were called about it. And not only knowing where were the best physicians or surgeons, but also having the ability to get people in immediately or the next day.
Adam Kaufman: It was very common for us to get a phone call where someone would say, "Mr. Kaufman, my wife was just diagnosed with breast cancer. We're here in Tulsa, the plane is fueled, where should we go?" So it was up to us to know how to take care of that. And through that process for the next six months, I would get close with the family that we were trying to help, and then afterwards, we might solicit a donation from that family to support the hospital. And then that, in turn would help us the next time we needed to go to that hospital when someone else called. So I did that for a decade.
Chrissi Sanders: Oh, wow.
Adam Kaufman: It was really a wonderful experience, very rewarding to help people find cures or to get better, whatever their problem was. I actually say it's an incomparable joy to help someone help their loved one with a health matter.
Chrissi Sanders: So you come from healthcare, which in doing a job-
Adam Kaufman: And I wasn't qualified at all to be in that role. They hired me at 32 to be the president.
Chrissi Sanders: ... I mean, I don't think a lot of people are qualified, but a lot of times when you have the work ethic and a lot of the type of values that you bring to the table, it's easy to kind of have some transferable skills. So I definitely see how you were able to be really successful in that. Now, when you were in healthcare, were you even thinking about startups? I know you're in startups now. How did families really start bringing you into that?
Adam Kaufman: Yeah, it was unexpected. I like that question. I get asked sometimes why am I involved in early stage startups now, having done that for 10 years with Healthnetwork. I unexpectedly got into this situation where once we helped a family, and we earned their trust with what I called our day job, helping with the knee surgery, then these very private discerning families would invite you into their world, it is very desirable situation to get invited into their world and we had earned their trust. So they might ask me to do something else. So after the knee surgery was solved, maybe a year later, that same family would say, "Hey, Adam, my son's starting a manufacturing software company. Do you know anyone who likes to invest in startups?" And I might just connect some dots and try to help this family that I like.
Adam Kaufman: There was no financial benefits for me to do that other than just trying to help a stakeholder in my life. But that's how I discovered that I really liked this world of early stage startups and working with entrepreneurs and investors and matching them together, and the high risk, high reward nature of early stage companies, it just gets my belly rumbling and it was an unexpected fondness that I developed over time.
Chrissi Sanders: That's so funny that you should say that because I think that when you really start looking at the most influential leaders and stuff, a lot of times the career just takes such a different path. That is how I got into sports as well. I was working. I was a marketing director.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah, you have a unique business sports advisory work.
Chrissi Sanders: Yes, and I had no intent to be in there whatsoever. I think that's why it's really important people like you learning how to build those transferable skills.
Adam Kaufman: Well, I didn't expect to be in the role I was at Healthnetwork, nor now. So I won't tell anyone, you're a fraud in your industry if you don't tell anyone that I'm definitely a fraud in my industry.
Chrissi Sanders: I think everybody kind of figured it out by now.
Adam Kaufman: Probably.
Chrissi Sanders: When I show up, they're like, what's going on with this?
Adam Kaufman: Who's she?
Chrissi Sanders: You know what I mean?
Adam Kaufman: Yeah.
Chrissi Sanders: I always just say I'm a Uber driver, you know what I mean?
Adam Kaufman: But you do cool things though. I remember you had that event in Beverly Hills with Porsche, and you invited me. I wish I could have gone but I'd like to be in your world.
Chrissi Sanders: It is, but I think that one of the biggest things you always talk about and we'll talk about later is, I always asked myself, how could I add value to people's lives, right? And I really saw the opportunity where representation was lacking with athletes, and it was really about building value, which you really kind of saw that opportunity as well, in the healthcare world when you would meet people in traumatizing situations.
Adam Kaufman: Very much so.
Chrissi Sanders: So at that point, you're holding their hand and they're like, "Adam's my friend now." So it's like now I trust him with my son's company, now I trust him with my money-
Adam Kaufman: Exactly, that was unexpected.
Chrissi Sanders: ... Right, yeah.
Adam Kaufman: That's very intuitive of you because I didn't know that that was happening while it was happening. But when you can help someone help their son with their most sensitive matters, brain cancer or bipolar disorder, and we were just the middleman, we're obviously not the medical providers. We were just the middle people. Connecting them with medical providers, but if you can tactfully and politely, but sometimes assertively lead them through that process, you can really earn some desirable relationships.
Chrissi Sanders: You know what really always impressed me about you is how you're able to nurture, build relationships, connect people and still kind of retain some confidentiality, which I think is really important-
Adam Kaufman: Thank you.
Chrissi Sanders: ... In affluent worlds.
Adam Kaufman: Yes. They care about that.
Chrissi Sanders: How are you able to kind of do that?
Adam Kaufman: Well, it was a double need to be private. One, it was medical. So not just affluent people, but all people require privacy on medical matters, but doubly so when it's a person of influence or a public figure, or certainly a family with a lot to lose. One time I remember a gentleman who was on the Forbes list of wealthiest people in the world. He was flying into a city, per our recommendation. And in addition to the medical matter, we were setting up his hotel stay. And so personally because of his stature, I was contacting the general manager of the hotel, and ahead of time I asked this gentleman, do you want to use your name? And he was being polite, but he was kind of laughing at me.
Adam Kaufman: He's like, "No, no, Adam." In his accent. He was from another country. "We can't use my name. Public markets would be affected if anyone knew I was at the hospital."
Chrissi Sanders: Oh wow.
Adam Kaufman: So that's how I kind of learned to always be private, and to always assume that the person we're talking about or thinking about, wants privacy, and if they give me permission to share something, then I will and now in the business world with investors, like when we're raising money, I don't tell investor number two that invest in number one invested with us unless I already asked permission of investor number one, "Can I share that you're involved in this project because that would lend credibility to the project?" And they almost always say yes, but once in a while investors will say "No, I'd rather be left out of it." And that's perfectly understandable.
Chrissi Sanders: Wow, and that's such an important thing, and I think that as a young professional it's super important that people hone in on what you just said because especially in this age of social media-
Adam Kaufman: Totally.
Chrissi Sanders: ... People, they love to tell everybody who they're with, but one of the big things in our industry people say, those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know, you know?
Adam Kaufman: I like that.
Chrissi Sanders: And it's just really refreshing when you try to connect me with people, you always ask us both separately. Which really stood to me.
Adam Kaufman: Oh, yeah, I know what you mean. I don't love it when somebody emails me and copies one of their friends and saying you two should talk.
Chrissi Sanders: Isn't that the worst?
Adam Kaufman: What am I supposed to do with that? Has that happened to you?
Chrissi Sanders: All the time.
Adam Kaufman: Everything I do is permission based. But then usually people are going to say absolutely, but it's just better to ask first.
Chrissi Sanders: Exactly. You're in healthcare networking, you're building these amazing relationships, you're adding value, you're a young man at the time-
Adam Kaufman: No longer. Yes, correct. You walked into that.
Chrissi Sanders: ... And you're 10 years into this thing. And then you're like, I'm all right, I'm going to go run a marathon, which a lot of people do as they kind of age.
Adam Kaufman: I was turning 40 and wanted to do another marathon, Exactly.
Chrissi Sanders: I didn't want to say your age.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah, you were being private. That's good.
Chrissi Sanders: Of course.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah, so I was turning 40 and I hadn't run a marathon since age 30, so I thought it was time to prove it to myself that I could do this again. Do you want me to talk about this right now?
Chrissi Sanders: Please.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah. So a group of us, all of us, I'd say are athletes in this group, but we're not like distance runners. So we had to really train to get up to a 26-mile capability. So it took four months for us to train, and we were all in different cities, and we picked the Big Sur marathon out in Northern California. It's gorgeous, right on the Pacific Coast Highway, the Monterey Big Sur area. But I figured, I'm going to be exhausted no matter where I run the race. I might as well have a gorgeous, gorgeous view. So, that's how I picked there.
Chrissi Sanders: Makes sense.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah. So we ran the race. We all finished, and the next day I flew home from San Francisco. So long flight, saw my family, kissed my lovely wife and then left again the next morning to go to Florida for a work trip, and then the next day flew back from Florida. So I had these three flights in four days. And exactly one week after the race, the following Sunday. I was awakened by this, Chrissi, excruciating pain in my left calf that even now, eight years later, I can't really adequately articulate how painful it was.
Adam Kaufman: I couldn't figure out what could hurt so bad in my calf where I was still alive, but it was just unspeakably painful.
Chrissi Sanders: That's brutal, and were you scared at the time?
Adam Kaufman: At three o'clock at first, I wasn't scared. I was like, oh, what's going on? But by 3:30, I was very scared. I was worried I was going to pass out just from the pain, let alone whatever else was going on. And I think we all know now, science tells us like the more nervous we get the worst things get physically so it was like-
Chrissi Sanders: Oh, 100%.
Adam Kaufman: ... It was just getting worse and worse. Thankfully, I was at home. Half my life, I'm in hotel rooms. So thank God I was at home when this happened. So I could wake up my wife and say, "Claire, I think we need to go to the hospital." And we did and didn't realize that I wouldn't be leaving the hospital for 11 days.
Chrissi Sanders: No kidding, 11 days?
Adam Kaufman: 11 days.
Chrissi Sanders: And you have a young family at the time?
Adam Kaufman: Yep. We had three young kids.
Chrissi Sanders: And I think it's worth saying it just so that the people listening can really understand. You were in a huge state of transition at this time in your life, newly married.
Adam Kaufman: That's true, yeah.
Chrissi Sanders: Right, newly married, young daughter, two young sons, starting to build a blended family.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah. Thanks for saying that, yeah.
Chrissi Sanders: This was real.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah, I was pondering this move away from Healthnetwork, because it was around the same time, and then I had this life threatening illness. I had a blood clot, what's called DVT, deep vein thrombosis.
Chrissi Sanders: Oh my god.
Adam Kaufman: And afterwards, when we were out of the hospital, 11 days later, my main physician from Johns Hopkins in Baltimore, even though I had great surgeons at the Cleveland Clinic taking care of me, but my personal physician had been at Johns Hopkins. He said to me that we were in 50/50 mode of survival for a couple days there.
Chrissi Sanders: Oh my god.
Adam Kaufman: So I didn't know that during, of course. But it was pretty serious. So I'm more grateful than you realize to be sitting here talking to you right now. And I mean that.
Chrissi Sanders: Right, and what was really impressive about the whole situation too is, most people, they might go back to their regular lives or whatever. And then you were like, I'm making a change, and I'm going to do something that I love and what I like.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah, yeah. Time to make a change, right. I loved my Healthnetwork life. But I certainly love my post Healthnetwork life. I think it's kind of healthy maybe to reflect at age 30, age 40, age 50. What do you want to do next? Personal goals, professional goals, et cetera. So I didn't ask for this major recalibration of my priorities in terms of the blood clot but right now I look back and I think, boy, the process that occurred, the curves in the road that took place, navigating through them with my family's help, and with God's help, things are okay.
Chrissi Sanders: So how did you get the courage to really make that step from the healthcare networks to full fledge, helping entrepreneurs like the most riskiest asset in the investment class?
Adam Kaufman: Yeah, that's true. Venture capital, not very safe.
Chrissi Sanders: Yes.
Adam Kaufman: I don't know, risk-reward is something that doesn't resonate with everybody. But it resonated with me. And we had a very competent team at Healthnetwork that could continue on the work there. And I just felt like the timing was right. My wife was very supportive, and I tried to early on evaluate opportunities before making the big leap. But we decided it was the right time to do it. If not then, probably it would be harder later in life.
Chrissi Sanders: Right. So, have you always been fascinated by startups?
Adam Kaufman: No, to be honest with you. I can't say that I've always been fascinated by startups. But I discovered my fondness for entrepreneurship through that Healthnetwork scenario. Where a family would ask me to help somebody raise money, or I'd be exposed to the entrepreneur himself who needed the healthcare service that we provided. So it wasn't a lifelong thing. Some people tell you that they were entrepreneurs in high school, that wasn't me. But I am really drawn to it now.
Adam Kaufman: I mean, just today I left a shared workspace where I was talking to four different entrepreneurs and I was really stimulated by the things they were each working on. People much more creative than me, it's very impressive.
Chrissi Sanders: I understand that, yeah. I'm not the most creative person myself. So I'm always impressed when I see entrepreneurs and what they're building and things like that. I've always been like a more analytical person.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah, how do they think of that.
Chrissi Sanders: Yeah, and then also put it together. I'm like, dude, I can barely do my printer.
Adam Kaufman: It's impressive. I mean that's why we do this show. I can't do a printer, you know they're wireless now, so they're a little bit easier.
Chrissi Sanders: Oh, man, it sounds even more complicated.
Adam Kaufman: But one of the reasons I love this show is I get to get inside the mind and the heart of a lot of successful entrepreneurs. We've interviewed some amazing people and they really open up on this program and I love being able to feed my need for those stories through a program like this.
Chrissi Sanders: Exactly. That is literally the best thing about doing a podcast is the simple fact that I think a lot of the guests don't realize it's more for the host than the-
Adam Kaufman: The listeners.
Chrissi Sanders: ... Exactly. I'm like of course, I get to talk to Adam for an hour and pick his brain and get some more advice, you know?
Adam Kaufman: You know it's a relationship builder, frankly, I mean-
Chrissi Sanders: It is.
Adam Kaufman: ... The people I have on the show I'm closer with now and after you and I are on this show will be closer now. It's just this long form conversation I think is rare in today's world of tweeting and everything at our fingertips literally. We can search on our smartphones with our thumbs for anything, and that creates an impatience, I think. So if we can slow down and have a long form conversation or listen to one, I think it's very desirable.
Chrissi Sanders: I agree with you.
Dave Douglas: You're listening to the Up2 Podcast. We'll be right back.
Adam Kaufman: During the first season of the Up2 Podcast, I had several companies and entrepreneurs approach me about potential partnerships. But I'm really selective before choosing to do something like that. One choice we did make happily is to partner with VividFront, a full service digital marketing and website design agency based in Cleveland that works with both local and national brands. They've built their entire client base on referrals, and they've won a lot of awards including the 2019 Inc. Magazine, Top 5000 Fastest Growing Companies, North Coast, Top Places to Work and several others. They're known for their talent. They're known for their creativity. They're known for their culture. A firm I liked before we agreed to partner together for this show. Check out vividfront.com or you can email me and I'll introduce you to their dynamic leader, Andrew Spott.
Adam Kaufman: Hello, my name is Adam Kaufman and I'm thankful you're joining us today on the Up2 Podcast. I want to tell you about a group that I'm grateful for and that is TownHall. Cleveland's most popular restaurant, and one that I can say is the only place my wife tells me she can eat every meal breakfast, lunch and dinner. TownHall was the first all non-GMO restaurant in the US a few years ago, and they're now expanding into Columbus, Ohio soon.
Adam Kaufman: I'm also very selective about who we choose to partner with for this podcast and it was with open arms that I embraced the idea of partnering with Bobby George and TownHall. To learn more about what they're up to, you can visit townhallohiocity.com.
Dave Douglas: Welcome back to the Up2 Podcast with Adam Kaufman, guest host, Chrissi Sanders.
Chrissi Sanders: Alright, so it was Ovo Fund the only fund you've been involved with your whole life or were you involved with anything else?
Adam Kaufman: Ovo Fund is a Palo Alto, California based, what's called pre-seed stage, pre-seed venture fund. So it's very early, before founders even have their product ready for the marketplace. I'm also involved with JumpStart, and they have some venture funds too. So no, Ovo is not the only one but it's the one in Northern California where I'm pretty heavily involved.
Chrissi Sanders: Yeah, pre-seed, that scares me.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah, of course.
Chrissi Sanders: Like when I even think about, because you and I, we've talked about it. I'm like, let's do growth stage.
Adam Kaufman: And that's okay. I mean, it's not for everybody. Sometimes when we're raising money for either JumpStart or Ovo Funds, and I'm talking to a prospective investor and I sense that she or he doesn't quite have the belly for this high risk, long time horizon asset class, I talk them out of it. I don't want to just take on an investor who doesn't get the high risk nature of this.
Chrissi Sanders: And that's so huge too, though.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah, I mean, the plus side is the successes can be quite successful. So we've had some companies that are 100x return, 200x return on our investment made, but that counters a lot of the companies that never even get off the ground that we invest in.
Chrissi Sanders: I'm learning a lot more about venture capital, and I'm involved with JumpStart too. I think that's exactly how we met. Have you noticed so far, are there any kind of key ingredients to the entrepreneur or the company that you guys look for that you kind of know that, even though it's a risky bet is still a semi-safe bet?
Adam Kaufman: Yeah, I wouldn't say semi-safe but I'm biased towards repeat entrepreneurs, and some might say, well, that's not fair. Somebody's always is a first time entrepreneur and that's true. But we also just look for the grit of the founder and the resilience and the ability to pivot if marketplace conditions change. An entrepreneur needs to be headstrong. An entrepreneur needs to be willing to just plow through walls. But too headstrong could be bad, because then you're not listening to what the marketplace is may be telling you. So it's not a science, but it's an analysis, at least on our case of the entrepreneur.
Chrissi Sanders: Yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Adam Kaufman: And notice I didn't even name the product there. I didn't even say anything about the product-
Chrissi Sanders: Well...
Adam Kaufman: ... Because it's hard to predict if a product is going to work.
Chrissi Sanders: Because I think that is so crucial for people to truly understand is that the management, the personnel is so key to the success of the company because you can have a great product but terrible personnel and it will still crash and burn.
Adam Kaufman: Or you can have an average product with amazing people that'll do great.
Chrissi Sanders: Exactly.
Adam Kaufman: And I've bought average things from amazing sales people to prove the point. And so I'd rather if it's one of the other have amazing people with an average product.
Chrissi Sanders: Yeah, and that's one of the biggest things too that I used to always say when I was in kind of automotive marketing that people don't buy cars, they buy people. So there's no difference between BMW of Akron, Canton, whatever, Columbus, they're buying you, they're buying their relationship with you, they're buying Adam. Because that's who they're going to come back and see constantly. So speaking of that, let's talk about the relationship between the venture capitalists and entrepreneurs, and the perception of that because a lot of people see what happened to your industry is what happened in my industry, once they made Jerry Maguire it got way skewed, and so when they started making Shark Tank-
Adam Kaufman: That's true.
Chrissi Sanders: ... Like...
Adam Kaufman: 10 minutes, I'm buying, right?
Chrissi Sanders: Yeah, and a lot of times entrepreneurs don't always understand the relationship with the venture capitalist is in the company's development.
Adam Kaufman: Yes, and on that show, and I love Shark Tank, and I do like that it's in the marketplace, so to speak, to increase people's awareness of what venture capital is. But yes, it usually takes more time than those few minutes to decide if a venture capitalist is going to get involved in particular founders company. And most of the time, you're saying no, it's not a good fit, either because you don't believe in the founder or the product, or competitive situations, what have you or the valuation of the company that the founder won't stray at all from. So in the case of, for instance, Ovo Fund, we have to look at, I think we invested in 55 startups in our first fund-
Chrissi Sanders: Wow.
Adam Kaufman: ... 55 pre-seed companies, but we had to look at about 800 to get to 55 yeses. So if those, whatever 800 minus 55 is...
Chrissi Sanders: I think that's 745.
Adam Kaufman: If those 745 founders or if there's co-founders, it's even more, if they all walk away so mad at us, that's not a good thing. So I still try to be helpful to founders and connect them to others who could be capital partners, or customers, or co-founders even. I still want to find ways to deliver value other than being the source of capital, which is originally what they wanted. Because that, in turn, hopefully will lead to future opportunities when that founder starts other companies or gets into a later stage or has a new customer need that we could help with.
Chrissi Sanders: Yeah, and I think that's what really makes you so special in your space, because I'm on Twitter a lot. And I'm always checking out things that people are doing and reading about it. And I always noticed that some people approach the venture capitalist space from just a one way street like they're the person on the throne giving out the money and you're like, how can I be a value to you, even if we're not working together? Which is so huge. And I think that that's so key to building relationships. Because like you've said, every business isn't going to work but that doesn't mean that the entrepreneur may not come up with the next Facebook or the next Uber.
Adam Kaufman: Or refer another entrepreneur to us.
Chrissi Sanders: Right, yeah. And that's so key to kind of balancing those relationships, because it's tough to tell somebody no, but you know?
Adam Kaufman: What I call relationship equity is what you're speaking about, and if you think of an ATM machine, you can make deposits into your ATM and you can make withdrawals from your ATM. Relationships I feel are similar. You want to invest in a relationship. You can make a withdrawal once in a while, but hopefully your deposits are greater than your withdrawals. So I want to do as much as I can for others, and if down the road, you can help me with something I might ask you for a favor. Like I did today to be on this show actually, but as a stranger you would have been like, "No, I'm not going to be on your show." But hopefully I had already built up some relationship equity with you.
Chrissi Sanders: Sure.
Adam Kaufman: So that you would say yes, right away, you trusted me to do it. And that's kind of how I look at things in my independent work, my JumpStart work, my Ovo Fund work, and with PathNorth is I just always want to help others connect dots, one plus one can equal three, not just two. And it's, thankfully served us pretty well.
Chrissi Sanders: I'm always so impressed by how humble you are, and-
Adam Kaufman: I'm not being humble talking about myself this much today.
Chrissi Sanders: ... But the thing about it is you're sharing your philosophy, which is still humble because you're giving it back-
Adam Kaufman: Thanks.
Chrissi Sanders: ... Because you could keep it all inside.
Adam Kaufman: Thank you.
Chrissi Sanders: But I think it's so interesting how you always talk about building value and adding value and doing things for others. And I always tell like the athletes that I represent that as well when it comes down to it, it's like, do you want to engage or do you want to be admired? And a lot of times nowadays in the age of social media, people want to be admired, but they don't really want to, like you said make those equity relationship deposits.
Adam Kaufman: Too transactional.
Chrissi Sanders: Right. So you started Up2 and you started doing these events, which is extreme value. I've been to a couple of the events and then what's interesting guys about this and for the audience to know, Adam pays for everything at the event. So you come in the event, you get your cheese, you get your bourbon, your whatever it is that you want and-
Adam Kaufman: Cheese and bourbon.
Chrissi Sanders: ... He does two interviews. So he's giving you knowledge and free alcohol.
Adam Kaufman: Thank you. Yeah, right. Well, that all starts in college. If you say free food and drink people show up, right? We do have partners now that helps support it. But thank you for saying that. I did start Up2 as a live event to deliver value to the stakeholders in my world, whether those were donors to something I was trying to raise money for or investors in something we were raising money for, or recipients of those funds or other partners of mine, political figures, we've had surgeons in the room, entrepreneurs like you in the room. And for seven years, we were just doing these live events and short 15-minute interviews.
Adam Kaufman: I came up with the idea when TED talks were getting so popular. Remember, at the time, it was really unusual to have those short talks and now it's common, but that was very innovative back then. So I thought, what if we could combine the best of what I knew the TED talks to be and the best of another group I'm from called Entrepreneurs' Organization, and I was involved in something called the Renaissance Weekends where every attendee of the conference was also a speaker. It was extremely humbling. You show up at the conference, and they assign you your topic when you get there so you couldn't prepare at all, and then Bill Clinton made the Renaissance Weekends famous.
Chrissi Sanders: Wow.
Adam Kaufman: He was going when he was governor, and I guess continued to go when he was president and just I was by far the least accomplished person in the room, the couple times I went, and the person, the next level up from me was like an astronaut. So that was like a big jump.
Chrissi Sanders: Oh, perfect.
Adam Kaufman: And then it went way up from there. So very humbling. Anyway, so I was flying back from another San Francisco flight, this one where I wasn't having a blood clot, thankfully. And I thought, let's combine these things and create a one evening event, and we did that seven years ago, inviting the 50 most interesting, and successful CEOs or investors we thought might want to come, and fast forward, years later now, we have not only the event, but this podcast that came out of that, and I really feel like there's a thirst for curated content from a trusted source.
Adam Kaufman: If you can build trust with somebody, earn somebody's trust in this digital age, I think more than ever, curated content is desired. And so that's what we try to do not only on this show, but in our live events.
Chrissi Sanders: Up2, the events that we do. Well, You do. But I come to so many.
Adam Kaufman: You're a part of it, yeah.
Chrissi Sanders: I feel like I'm a part of it. And I know you're going to because you're so humble. But I've read a book called Trillion Dollar Coach recently about Bill Campbell. He was an advisor to Apple.
Adam Kaufman: Everyone in Silicon Valley.
Chrissi Sanders: Everybody in Silicon Valley. And you kind of sometimes remind me of that, like-
Adam Kaufman: Wow.
Chrissi Sanders: ... I was listening to the book on Audible, and I'm like this is the Adam.
Adam Kaufman: Wow.
Chrissi Sanders: There's going be a book about Adam one day.
Adam Kaufman: Oh my gosh. I hope not.
Chrissi Sanders: Dead serious, and he had this thing called, I think it was bar and bottom line, like all of the entrepreneurs, all the people that either they were thriving or not thriving, whatever the case may be that we're all in his circle, would come and have free drinks and talk and it was not-
Adam Kaufman: Just a convening of peers and sharing.
Chrissi Sanders: ... Right, yeah.
Adam Kaufman: Thank you so much, by the way, for all those kind words, Bill Campbell was a legend in Northern California and nationwide. We lost him a couple of years ago. But when we do the Up2 events, we have this unwritten rule, no jerks allowed. It's not on the website. It's on the invitation. But we all know the jerky type who's maybe too solicitous, professionally-
Chrissi Sanders: Oh my god.
Adam Kaufman: ... Or too selfish, personally, self centered, or folks who brag maybe beyond their true level of wherever they're doing in society. We all know people like that. So we like to attract the opposite. The people who are understated, and that's why this podcast, the theme is leaders who are as humble as they are successful. So Bill Campbell was a great example of that. And a lot of times, you can really appear to be sharp, like you were saying, I'm really sharp. I just usually listen to people. This is unusual, I'm talking a lot. Usually I just listen, and the Bible says, "Even the fool appears wise when silent."
Adam Kaufman: So I feel like I'm a little bit smarter, or at least perceived to be just by listening better. So whatever level of listener you are, not just you, rhetorically, you, all of us, I would encourage everyone to try to be even a better listener. People want to be heard, whether they're talking about their personal lives or their professional lives, people want to be heard.
Chrissi Sanders: Right, and you are always trying to learn stuff from people as well, which I think is super impressive, especially at the level that you're at because like you said, most people are like, been there done that seen it all, and I think that people really lose opportunities to come across good things when they have that attitude.
Adam Kaufman: One of our guests on this show, his name is Philippe Bourguignon. He was on an episode a few episodes ago, and he is an international businessman truly on the board of eBay for a decade, one of the most successful companies in the world. On the board of Neiman Marcus. He was the CEO of the Davos World Economic Forum.
Chrissi Sanders: Wow.
Adam Kaufman: CEO of World Economic Forum, biggest conference in the world.
Chrissi Sanders: Wow. I got to step it up.
Adam Kaufman: No, You're a peer of his now because he was on this show just like you are.
Chrissi Sanders: Right.
Adam Kaufman: Anyway, Philippe said something I'd never heard before. He said the way he said it, but it's kind of like what you're talking about. He said in his wonderfully gravitating French accent that I won't try to imitate, but he said, "Pride can blind us. If we have too much pride, we cannot see where we could improve or what we can learn from others." So I loved hearing that. Pride can blind us.
Chrissi Sanders: Growing up I was obsessed with basketball, right? But I never thought I would be working in sports to this capacity. I thought I will be covering it in journalism. But I read this quote by Diana Taurasi, who is considered the greatest female basketball player, and she said, "I'm good-
Adam Kaufman: She played for Connecticut, right?
Chrissi Sanders: ... She did play for Connecticut and she plays for the Phoenix Mercury now. And one thing she said was, "I'm good because I don't think I'm good."
Adam Kaufman: Love that. It's similar to what Philippe said.
Chrissi Sanders: Exactly, and she's like, "I never think that I'm good enough." And that's huge.
Adam Kaufman: That drives her, yeah.
Chrissi Sanders: Exactly.
Adam Kaufman: I like it.
Chrissi Sanders: Yeah. So-
Adam Kaufman: We should put that quote on the Up2 website seriously.
Chrissi Sanders: You should.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah.
Chrissi Sanders: Let's talk about, you have this dynamic career, you're at Ovo Fund now, every time I look on Facebook, you're in a different country. You know what I mean?
Adam Kaufman: Hopefully I don't post too much. That's...
Chrissi Sanders: No, I love it.
Adam Kaufman: Okay.
Chrissi Sanders: I love it. So, somehow you're still a family man. So you're like, oh okay, I'm doing this with this person and that person. And then oh, yeah, my daughter's soccer game. So how do you maintain that balance?
Adam Kaufman: It's tough. A lot of us talk about balance and how to achieve balance in life. I don't know that this is the right answer for everybody. But for me, when I'm working, I'm always trying to have fun, and when I'm having fun, I'm also thinking about work. Again, I'll underline that's not the answer for everybody, and it's probably not ideal in my wife's perspective, justifiably that if I'm not fully present when we're out to dinner or something, but I'm a human being, I'm trying to figure all of that out. Thankfully, we're blessed with three kids. And I do feel like we all have good relationships individually with each one of them. But it does take effort.
Adam Kaufman: For instance, my wife and I, when we got married, it was our second marriage for both of us. And we were getting married, having already had kids. So we didn't have the traditional dating period in our lives where there were no kids. We already were establishing this union-
Chrissi Sanders: So it was play date.
Adam Kaufman: ... With three kids. Right, right. It was play dates. That's true. Were you there? How did you know that?
Chrissi Sanders: I was on the wall.
Adam Kaufman: Wow. Anyway, so someone gave us the advice when we got married that we should establish a date night. Just my wife and I, every Saturday night, and that sounds like no big deal, but you'd be surprised how a few people, married couples actually have date nights. But now, 14 years later, my wife and I have 14 years to reflect on of adult only time, sometimes just the two of us. Sometimes we're plugging into some other event or a party or a wedding or something. But that was really good advice, but it took that concerted effort to keep the date night. I use this as an example of just trying to pursue balance of personal and work if that is helpful at all.
Chrissi Sanders: Yeah, and date night. I think people don't realize that's where you get on the same page as a couple. Even though I'm single as $1 bill, I read a lot of books, nope. But like-
Adam Kaufman: You sound very good at it.
Chrissi Sanders: ... Right. But a lot of people say they get on the same page. And I think that's one of the biggest things when you have a partner, you have to like, this is why we're working so hard. This is where we're going.
Adam Kaufman: It takes effort.
Chrissi Sanders: Exactly. So you're always reminded of that on a weekly basis. You do that on a weekly basis?
Adam Kaufman: Yes.
Chrissi Sanders: That's awesome. And I also see you take your wife places too.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah, you've met Claire at Up2 and some other gatherings and while she would happily tell you she's not a professional business person, I love having her in the room when we have those gatherings because I'm proud of her and I want her to experience everything I experience and frankly people like her way more than they like me. So it's also an asset for me to have her in the room.
Chrissi Sanders: Good luck charm.
Adam Kaufman: That's right.
Chrissi Sanders: I hear you. I hear you. See, that goes back to your humbleness again. You also do some things with PathNorth. So-
Adam Kaufman: Very special group.
Chrissi Sanders: ... And I went to one of those events and I was blown away. I'm actually going to say it before you do because I was the least accomplished person in that room. I had no business being in that room.
Adam Kaufman: I don't know.
Chrissi Sanders: But I appreciate you inviting me.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah, I remember your event. We had the editor of the LA Times interviewing the most-
Chrissi Sanders: Shelby.
Adam Kaufman: ... Shelby Coffey interviewing the most requested heart surgeon in the world.
Chrissi Sanders: Right.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah. A bunch of slackers.
Chrissi Sanders: Well, I was asking him about my ellipticals in the morning.
Adam Kaufman: Oh, good, good, good. Did you follow his advice?
Chrissi Sanders: I did, you know?
Adam Kaufman: Nice.
Chrissi Sanders: I stayed with it.
Adam Kaufman: No, PathNorth is an amazing group, the founder, Doug Holladay, who's also been an Up2 guest, he created a peer group for his Washington and New York colleagues, for the purpose of broadening the definition of success. People who presumably have everything money could buy looking for Meaning in their life. Meaning beyond just the accumulation of stuff and trips, and things that too often we find ourselves chasing in terms of cool cars or vacations or whatever suits and dresses we buy. So he wanted to broaden the definition of success by bringing together these super accomplished leaders, and then we talk about subjects that leaders too often don't have a setting in which they can safely discuss.
Adam Kaufman: For instance, when were you last afraid? Or who do you need to forgive in your life? Who needs to forgive you? I recently asked somebody at an event, very accomplished person. If I was talking to your son right now, what would he say is the most important thing to his father?
Chrissi Sanders: Wow.
Adam Kaufman: Big Wow.
Chrissi Sanders: Yeah.
Adam Kaufman: And I saw not only the person I was interviewing, but the audience thought about it in their own life, what would my son say is most important to me? And so these are the types of things we talk about at PathNorth, and it's a DC based organization, and I've been lucky enough to be involved for about five years now.
Chrissi Sanders: Yeah, it's so funny because the one event that I went to at PathNorth, I had probably one of the most impactful and interesting conversation.
Adam Kaufman: Oh, really? Tell me. You've never told me that.
Chrissi Sanders: Yeah, I did. It was with the gentleman and he came from a family, I don't remember exactly what the business is, and we're on air, so it's probably back to confidentiality. He came from a long line of people-
Adam Kaufman: Successful family.
Chrissi Sanders: ... Yes, very successful family. And you know me, self made, first generation.
Adam Kaufman: Yes.
Chrissi Sanders: And on top of that we were cross generational, right? I'm-
Adam Kaufman: Did you just happen to be seated next to this person.
Chrissi Sanders: ... Yes, exactly.
Adam Kaufman: Cool.
Chrissi Sanders: And we were talking-
Adam Kaufman: I probably did the seating chart.
Chrissi Sanders: ... Exactly. So he and I were chatting, and I could tell he was kind of stressed out, you can just kind of tell. And so he was hesitant to kind of say what he did because-
Adam Kaufman: To open up.
Chrissi Sanders: ... Right. And so we were talking about the fact that people don't realize how hard it is to maintain a family business, and how it is to keep a generation going, the next generation because I think a lot of times, especially in this day and age, people always are so quick to get angry at people when they inherit wealth or when they inherit companies or whatever the case may be.
Adam Kaufman: Entitlement, right. Jealousy.
Chrissi Sanders: But they actually, I feel like they have it harder, because if I crash and burn, I don't have any children. There was no wealth before me. It was just like, hey-
Adam Kaufman: Less pressure.
Chrissi Sanders: ... Right. I start over. But you still have to maintain that family.
Adam Kaufman: I didn't know you had that talk with that individual. We one time at PathNorth had a panel discussion, and the title of the session was, What It's Like to Grow Up With a Famous Last Name?
Chrissi Sanders: Yes.
Adam Kaufman: And the panelists were Abigail Disney.
Chrissi Sanders: Oh, perfect.
Adam Kaufman: Peter Buffett, Warren Buffett's son.
Chrissi Sanders: Oh, wow.
Adam Kaufman: And Tim Shriver, who's from the Kennedy family, and he's chairman of the Special Olympics.
Chrissi Sanders: Wow.
Adam Kaufman: And you're right from afar. We think all of these people have everything. I'd love to be born into that situation. Oh, and the fourth person was Ben DuPont.
Chrissi Sanders: Perfect.
Adam Kaufman: And I know all these people don't mind me saying the name. So DuPont family everyone's heard of, his father was governor. All four of the panelists spoke of addiction problems in their families and the pressures of getting into their parents business. "What if I don't like filmmaking?" Abigail Disney. "But what if I don't want to make cartoons for kids?" Is what she said, actually. So you're right. Just because they're successful, these people also have stress, and that's what PathNorth tries to address a little bit is its lonely at the top dynamic really is true. And the higher the top, the lonelier it can be. So we try to create a safe environment because that in turn makes them better leaders for all the people that are working in those companies.
Chrissi Sanders: People need to be free to express what's going on with them, everyone, so.
Adam Kaufman: And ironically, the more authentic we are, and more people are drawn to us. So hopefully, by talking about my blood clot or my own health challenges, people might have one more reason to talk to me the next time they see me. We don't want to just talk about how everything is perfect. Too often human nature is we brag about where our kids go to school or what kind of car we just bought, or where I vacation, I just posted on Facebook about, took me. But actually if we talk about things like our own health scares, or the fact that I'm on blood thinner the rest of my life, or that my father was an alcoholic, that ironically draws people closer.
Adam Kaufman: So I encourage all of us to don't talk about just our successes. But if we also lean into our failings and our worries, that can be a good thing.
Chrissi Sanders: I agree. So speaking of that, and that childhood, because my father, he had a substance abuse problem as well. Younger Adam, growing up Washington, DC. Did you ever see yourself here talking to Abigail Disney?
Adam Kaufman: Talking to Chrissy Sanders. No, that's the amazing thing. No, I didn't predict this. I originally, as a young adult, had this blueprint for my career. Like a lot of people have this plan. But my plan that I originally set out for myself got changed without my consent, but the sooner I realized that God's plan was perfect for me, the sooner I was relaxed about the future and whatever was in store for me would be fine. But it takes a lot of effort. Because I think men especially I don't want to say just men, but men especially we're so vain. We think we can control everything, that if we act this way, it will lead to this activity, or this result. And that's just wrong, because we really can't control everything. We really can't control that much.
Adam Kaufman: I saw this Franciscan monk give a talk once. It was a group of CEOs, and we're watching Fr. Richard Rohr at a conference. And he has this amazing book called Falling Upward, and he was saying to this group of CEOs, about 150 of us in the room, he said, "I took a vow of poverty in my own career. And once I did that, imagine how many things I no longer had to worry about because of this vow of poverty."
Adam Kaufman: So he challenged us, what can you in the audience, I'm not asking you to take a vow of poverty, but what could you acknowledge to be true, and therefore remove worries in your life? And he said, "The sooner you realize that we're not doers, we're actually done unto." Think about that. We're not doers, we're done unto.
Chrissi Sanders: Interesting.
Adam Kaufman: "The sooner you realize that, the less worry you'll have." And I've tried that and it really does work.
Chrissi Sanders: As an entrepreneur myself too, and you probably see it a lot because you work with people my age, we can be the same way. Especially a lot of times you go into entrepreneurship because you have some type of drive to change the world. And you also usually, even though people don't like to say it, usually, things have gone pretty well in your life. You are kind of used to achieving things, and it's really hard to let go. And I remember one thing my mom told me when I first started and I literally made the biggest recruiting mistake ever in my life. And I was like, my company's over. And she said, "The sooner that you realize you're not perfect, the better off you'll be." Because we all figured it out by now.
Adam Kaufman: Perfect. I love that. That's wise, that's wise and so she's told you that when you were young so if you really believe that, I think it'll lead to less worry in your life.
Chrissi Sanders: Yeah. And it wasn't and it helps you go on and it helps you be resilient because you realize, like you've said, we are done unto, things are out of your control, and you're not perfect.
Adam Kaufman: It's still good to have goals.
Chrissi Sanders: Right, you recalibrate messing up every morning, right?
Adam Kaufman: Yeah, I call that navigating curves in the road. Usually when I'm the host on this show, this is my show Chrissi, not yours.
Chrissi Sanders: Right.
Adam Kaufman: But usually on this show, I ask people about how they navigated certain curves in the road and that's kind of what your mom was helping you navigating this curve in the road with this bad HR decision you made.
Chrissi Sanders: Exactly.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah, that's awesome.
Chrissi Sanders: Exactly. So, let's talk about what's next. Because you are fairly young, even though...
Adam Kaufman: 49, bald at 49.
Chrissi Sanders: You talked about politics, right?
Adam Kaufman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chrissi Sanders: Do you ever think about going back into that?
Adam Kaufman: People have asked me that a few times. My wife and I, we've kind of chosen a different route still within politics as I like to find candidates that we believe in and just support that candidate, rather than be the candidate myself. I do convening people of a like mind to support candidates. So we do a lot of hosting of fundraisers, and then trying to deliver value or give advice, counsel to elected officials after the election, but I don't think running for office myself is on the horizon. But again, I don't want to pretend to know that my plan is determined by me. I really don't have that plan anymore, but not in the near future, I don't think.
Chrissi Sanders: See any cabinet seats in your future if one of your politicians get elected?
Adam Kaufman: I just want to make sure everything's fine at our house. We have plenty going on at home with three teenagers and a lot of work ahead of us. So probably not.
Chrissi Sanders: I feel like you could probably be friends with anybody though. I really do. I feel like you're that guy. That you could literally be friends with anybody.
Adam Kaufman: Yeah, I like that. Unfortunately, in this world, I think people are too polarized today. But when I was a young professional working for the National Rifle Association, the gun lobby, one of my best friends lived with me in DC and he worked for Dick Gephardt, who was then the majority leader, the Democratic majority leader. So we were literally working against each other on campaigns.
Chrissi Sanders: Oh perfect, yeah.
Adam Kaufman: But we loved each other. I do like having friends from different walks of life, different ages, different parts of the world. We're Lebanese, I love having ethnic friends. A lot of it is around a meal. You can really bond having a meal with somebody. You and I have had meals together before, and hopefully we will again.
Chrissi Sanders: Continually. I'm super excited. And I always think of TownHall, which is one of your good friends. So one time we had the bone broth that was my first time trying that out.
Adam Kaufman: Bone broth at TownHall.
Chrissi Sanders: Yes. So-
Adam Kaufman: I need some right now.
Chrissi Sanders: ... You got me out of my shell with that, because-
Adam Kaufman: Oh, good.
Chrissi Sanders: ... I would have never done that on my own.
Adam Kaufman: Wasn't it good?
Chrissi Sanders: It was amazing. It was really good, actually.
Adam Kaufman: Well, you've gotten me out of my shell, a few people have asked how did I choose you for this special guest hosting? And I said I love the dynamic, vibrant, youthful, energetic, intelligent personality that you are.
Chrissi Sanders: Oh, thank you.
Adam Kaufman: And so you've really enhanced the show. So I want to thank you on air for doing such a terrific job.
Chrissi Sanders: I appreciate that. It was really an honor that you asked me to do it. I'm not even going to lie, and I took it really seriously. I took it actually probably more serious than my own podcast.
Adam Kaufman: Nooo.
Chrissi Sanders: And-
Adam Kaufman: It's great.
Chrissi Sanders: ... Yeah. Because I think even though you're so personable, you still demand excellence, which I love so much, and I think that's super important as a young person to get around people who will let you fall on your face, which you've seen me do a couple times-
Adam Kaufman: We've all done it.
Chrissi Sanders: ... But still hold me to a high standard and I love that.
Adam Kaufman: Well, you've lived up to it, and you've graced Up2 with your presence today. So thank you very much.
Chrissi Sanders: No problem.
Adam Kaufman: The hour went so fast.
Chrissi Sanders: Right, perfect.
Adam Kaufman: Thanks.
Chrissi Sanders: My five big takeaways from talking with Adam is number one, building relationship equity. Always add value to the relationships that you're pursuing, and building. Number two, goals are good, but it's not always up to you feel free to let life happen, and let go. Number three, whatever level of listener you are, strive to be even better. Number four, know when to pivot. Adam talked about navigating curves in the road and understanding that it's okay to change direction, and number five, you have to be intentional in your pursuit, a life balance.
Chrissi Sanders: All right, now I'm going to hand it right back over to Adam for our listener mailbag.
Adam Kaufman: Our Doug Holladay episode continues to generate a lot of feedback. Entrepreneur Tammy wrote, "Your episode with Doug Holladay was brilliant. I listened to it twice and even took notes. I'm so happy you did this interview with him. I only wish I knew some of his lessons earlier in my own life." Thanks a lot Tammy for writing. And we continue to encourage all feedback. All feedback is welcomed. Send me the good news, send our producer the criticisms to email@example.com.
Adam Kaufman: Up2 is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. A special thanks to our producer and audio engineer, Dave Douglas. I'm your host Adam Kaufman and thank you so much for listening to the Up2 Podcast.