437- Wedding Legal 101: Expert Tips to Protect your Big Day with Bridelawyer

Leah Haslage:

Welcome to the Bridechilla Podcast. I'm your host, Leah Haslage. Whether you're just starting to plan or you're counting down the days, I'm here to help you stay cool, calm, and collected throughout the wedding journey. So let's get this wedding party started and embrace your inner Bridechilla.

Hey, chillas, today we are here to protect you when it comes to contracts and all that fun stuff. I know it's the stuff that you're kind of dreading, but guess what? It's the important stuff you need to know, because there's nothing cooler than having your ass saved because you read your contracts. And here to help us is an awesome mother-daughter duo out of New York, New Jersey area. It is Shari Rivkind and Morgan Weil from Bridelawyer. Welcome to Bridechilla.

Morgan Weil:

Hello, thank you so much for having us.

Shari Rivkind:

Yeah, we're so excited to talk.

Leah Haslage:

I'm so excited to talk to y'all, too. And I've been loving your Instagram, by the way. There's been a lot of great tips you've given, which we'll talk about as we go throughout the show. But for those not familiar with Bridelawyer, tell us about yourselves.

Morgan Weil:

At Bridelawyer, we started this because as I was going through my own wedding, I was reviewing my own vendor contracts and everything. And a lot of my girlfriends were getting married as well. And I saw so many mistakes going on, right and left. And it really did occur to me, how do non-lawyers review these contracts and feel confident signing on the dotted line? And a light bulb moment went off. I was like, Shari, I think we have a good idea. What do you think of Bridelawyer as helping brides with the legal aspects of getting married and marriage?

Shari Rivkind:

And I'll tell you, from my point of view, I have been practicing law for 37 long years. And I happen to be one of the ones who still love it. But I was getting a little tired of the day to day. I was representing, and still am a lot of very sort of high income physicians is my weird specialty in their business and personal affairs, doing a lot of divorces and prenups and everything else. And I was getting a little tired and sort of looking for something to add a little spice as I get on. And I was like, it's fabulous. I think, you know, there's such a need for it because especially a lot when we talk about young brides, but older brides too, they've never really dealt with signing contracts on such a great deal of money, which is involved with dealing with the wedding.

Leah Haslage:

No, it's so true. And, you know, when I, in my past life, when I had been married, when I went through the process, I thought, oh, this will be easy. It shouldn't, you know, the contracts will be just pretty generic or like whatever. And you don't realize until you start getting involved, like, how nuanced some of them can be and confusing with their jargon. And I didn't have a wedding planner right away. I ended up doing a month out. But if I had had a planner to begin with, I know planners are really good about that. That's one of their main focuses, right? Making sure you're not getting screwed in your contracts and helping you along that process.

But a lot of people don't have a wedding planner for various reasons. And so it's really important that we spell out why having someone of legal counsel and even you yourself review these contracts with a fine tooth comb because, you know, most vendors I would like to say are on the up and up, but you're going to have some shady people in there and you want to make sure you're protecting yourself to make sure you're not going to get screwed in the end. So with that, let's start off with the marriage licenses and the contracts, right? So marriage license, it's an exciting moment when you get to go with your partner to go get one at the courthouse and talk about that process and what we should know about it.

Morgan Weil:

So it actually varies state by state and it usually is you in New Jersey and New York, you must apply in person and there's a waiting period. So for example, in New York, it's 24 hours after you apply. And then in New Jersey, it's 72 hours.

Leah Haslage:

So you definitely want to check your state or country's laws when it comes to that beforehand.

Morgan Weil:

Absolutely. And, you know, you go to, like, for example, in New York, you go to ny.gov.

Shari Rivkind:

And, you know, they'll give you the details. But in general, what you tend to do is, you find out– it's different state by state. In New Jersey, if you're a resident of the state, you go to your hometown where you live. If you're a non-resident, you go to apply to where the ceremony is. Oh, that's the biggest thing. People get a little confused. And I even had an officiant double check with me that someone from California is getting married in New York. Do they get the license in California or do they get in New York? You get in where the ceremony is. So if you want one of those Vegas weddings, you go to Vegas, and they're the best. In Vegas, especially, in Nevada, but in Vegas itself, they're open almost 24 hours. You can apply the same day, but they tell you do it the day before. There's no waiting period. But regardless, you're going to need ID. So bring your social security and like a driver's license, and you both need to be there in almost every state. The licenses themselves, once you apply, because there's a question of timing, right? There's that little waiting period, which puts you at that last minute sort of event that you better have that waiting period covered. But other than that, you know, licenses, for example, in New Jersey, they're good for 30 days. In New York, they're good for 60 days. So that means you can get it. You tell them in New York what day you want, you're having your wedding. But if it goes a little later, it gets delayed. You can still use that same license if it's within time.

Leah Haslage:

So definitely look into your state, whether you're getting married in your hometown or destination, which we'll get deeper in later, to know how many days out, because don't think it's going to be like Vegas wherever you're at, to where you can go the day before the wedding and get your license, because not going to be the case.

OK, so then from there, how should couples handle their vendor contracts? Because oftentimes when you get the marriage license, you're already way deep into planning, right? So as you're deciding on your vendors, what's that first step you should be taking once the contract is sent to you?

Morgan Weil:

really review that fine print. And if you have any questions, we always say consult with an attorney if you really don't understand something or there are terms that are not noted in there. You want your contract to be as specific as possible. A lot of people complain, oh, you know, they said to me in person that that would be included. But you're not in luck in that regard. You have to have that statement, that agreement, that oral agreement to be actually in that contract. In order for it to be legally binding.

Shari Rivkind:

And I think a really good point is that you go to a venue, right? And this is your dream venue. And when you fall in love with it, you're not looking at every nuance. You're sort of getting a big picture. You're not thinking, oh yeah, you know, the ceremonies in that one space. Oh, is there room for it? Oh, do they have the audio visual to work with the band? Do they have this? So a lot of times there's a lot of details that when the contracts presented, you're not thinking of yet. So it's really good. Go online. We wrote even books on this, go through and really envision what are the different things for a wedding? I really need.

Leah Haslage:

This is not a time to be shy is what you're saying.

Shari Rivkind:

Don't and really make sure you have that information and have everything sort of together so that you know what to put in the contract. And one more important thing is even after the fact. Yes, if you have changes, we find especially venues because they know it's the first thing that people hit. If you have changes where something's not in writing and you specifically want to have it put in, ask. And we find even large corporate entities. are really willing to make changes and to put things in writing. And the biggest problem that people face, and we had a case very recently, was where someone agreed to something, whether it's having your dog in the ceremony or free use of an extra room, all of a sudden that person you worked with is not there anymore. And their successor is like, what are you talking about? We don't do that.

Leah Haslage:

Which I didn't have a legal issue, but that did happen to me when I was getting married. The girl that had been helping the whole time decided to go out of the country, and so another person came in last minute. And they were wonderful, but they hadn't been a part of the whole process, so they didn't know all the things that we orally had said about, and that wasn't in the contract. It worked out for me in the end, but that is a real thing y'all need to be aware of.

Shari Rivkind:

And can I tell you, this is one other thing that I, that we're sort of seeing more of. Vendors are not your enemy. Most people who get in the wedding industry, they do it because they love what they're doing and they love sharing the joy of someone's day. So people either, often they're the types that it's like, you know, oh, I trust them and, you know, I'm not going to worry about contracts or the opposite where, you know, they're out to, you know, steal my money and get away with this. We find it is so untrue. Sometimes it's due to the vendor's own ignorance that they have a contract they copied for someone else. So it's an unfair contract, but it's because of their ignorance that they should have a real contract.

Morgan Weil:

Absolutely. And for that matter, just to reel us back into some of the things that need to be noted in a contract, we find, for example, with a venue, that they give you all these like lovely brochures and it's so exciting and you're like, oh, I can get this package, this package, oh, I can get married during the winter and I'll get this like, you know, these additions.

Shari Rivkind:

Hot cocoa with them.

Morgan Weil:

Yeah, hot cocoa bar. But if you don't note that brochure, or that document in your contract, it's not legally binding. So we really urge people to be just so specific. Every little nuance. Note it.

Leah Haslage:

They're not going to consider you being a bridezilla, if you will, for doing it. This is just to protect both of you. Because the vendor wants to be protected and you need to be protected.

Shari Rivkind:

And can I tell you, that's what the vendors say to us more than anything, that they want their clients to know exactly what's in the contract and to read it.

Leah Haslage:

Well, they want the guest to be happy, right? The client to be happy, because then they get more referrals.

Morgan Weil:

Right. And their reputation, you know, continues on. And it's a great partnership. It's supposed to be a joyous experience. But you do, you want to be as clear as possible. So it's a harmonious relationship.

Leah Haslage:

You mentioned something I never would have ever considered, but like if you want your dog in the wedding or the extra room. So what are some common disputes and oversights that couples like don't consider and mistake?

Shari Rivkind:

Well, it's like Morgan's going to tell the story, the dog provision she actually had added to hers.

Morgan Weil:

Yeah, and it was a message to my contract. And, you know, it was just off the cuff. I brought up that, you know, my sweet Jezebel, my little long hair Chihuahua, and my mother's Yorkshire Terrier, Felina, because I'm getting married at the Felina. These two superstars are going to be walking down the aisle, going to be my ring bearers. You know, of course I'm just talking about this when I'm touring the venue, but I never actually, and you know, silly me, I know I'm ashamed to say it. I didn't include it in the contract. And when I was touring the venue again, you know, after we signed the contract, I'm like, Ooh, actually, can we put that in? And she's like, yeah, send me an email. And, you know, she sent me a contract that day. So. you know, they're willing to work with you. It's not a guarantee, but you know, don't be shy.

Leah Haslage:

So what are some other common things that we need to consider?

Shari Rivkind:

Well, I think one of the common things that we see is where the process of preparing for the wedding isn't really detailed. So in other words, you know, the contract says you'll have a tasting three months before you'll have this, you'll pick your menu and the like. And again, this is just for the venue. And then you sign the contract. And then it's quiet for a long time and you hear nothing. And you're then told that, well, three months before we do the tasting and then the tasting, you're picturing this private dinner for you and your spouse. And instead they're like, no, you're going to come. It's a big banquet for everyone who's getting married those two months. And you're like, But then again, if you looked at the contract, it just said a tasting. It didn't detail. So I think it's a lot of these little things where the question isn't that there's a problem with the vendor or a problem with bride and groom. It's a problem with expectations. And it's because we all have visions of how these things should work and they're not spelled out in the contract. So that doesn't mean they're going to work the way you envision.

Leah Haslage:

No, I'm so glad you said that because that's something that I have noted that I want to talk about with you. Are there legal steps to take if a vendor doesn't meet contractual obligations? And this comes to your whole expectations versus reality, because some people think, well, you didn't live up to the contract, but to the vendor, it's like, but you didn't say the specific thing, right? So where's that line?

Shari Rivkind:

Yeah, it's it's it's crazy. It's one of these things that to a great degree, there's a lot of trust. Let's move on to florists. You usually go to a florist and you'll give an idea, you'll pick some flowers, you'll talk about how many tables, how many bouquets, you know, and that kind of a thing. They then often give you, you know, a board and it'll show exactly how things are. They may show where things are, but it's really sort of a general, it's a vision. The exact things you're going to get is sort of left very much up in the air. And some of that is because the availability of flowers can change. So we find usually florists will have a specific provision saying there's no guarantee. They'll try to get a similar price point and similar flower, but there's no guarantee it's going to be that flower. And there's a lot more of this sort of very detailed that goes into it where you're trusting this florist.

So number one, and I tell the entire universe this, wedding and no wedding, the number one thing to do, and the most important, is who you pick. Because you can have the greatest, most airtight contract in the world, but it's only as good as who you're contracting with. Otherwise, you have a great contract, buys you a better lawsuit, and we don't want lawsuits.

Leah Haslage:

Wise words.

Shari Rivkind:

Right? And I think that that's where you really have to trust in these people, know their work, you know, because I'm telling you, you do, you get a lot of artistic people, whether it's florists, or even people who make signs, the photographers especially, where you know, they’re artists, you know, contracts and that that's not their thing. Some of them, we had one situation where the photographer got offended that they felt it was too much going into the contract. Do you love my work? It's my vision.

Morgan Weil:

This is my life's work. You know, how can you question, you know, my profession? And we did, you know, advise our bride, you know, for that particular case to really look elsewhere for her own benefit.

Shari Rivkind:

Because there was no protections. The other crazy thing that I think people really have to consider, in many of these cases, you're putting down deposits a year in advance. So there's a lot of sort of fly-by-night things. And when I say fly-by-night, I don't mean they're purposely fly-by-night. Talent is talent. So you can have the best photographer in the world. And he happens to be a fisherman who this is his side gig, right? It doesn't have to be that he is this notable big name photographer. He could be the best. But maybe he gets tired of it and wants to go back to fishing next week. You know, if he doesn't have a real corporation, you know, you get into these situations where you have to be really careful with who you're putting deposits down.

Leah Haslage:

And make sure to say you can get your money back if they decide to end.

Shari Rivkind:

And you have to have good clauses regarding the return of funds. You understand that vendors want deposits because they're reserving the date. And by reserving that date, they can't take others. And depending if there's a cancellation at a very last minute, the chance of them replacing it is limited.

Leah Haslage:

No, that actually is so good. I'm so glad you said that because it's going to segue to something else. And that is how can couples protect themselves financially from an unexpected vendor issue like a vendor, a venue closing, which happened to my best friend. My best friend, Doug and Nicole. This is pre us meeting and becoming friends. They've been married for 20, over 20 years now. They were sending the invites to the printer. This is months out from the wedding and the venue closed and them and like four other couples got screwed and they had to scramble and find a last minute venue. And I don't think, I don't think they got their money back. I have to go back and ask her.

Morgan Weil:

But we actually covered this in a YouTube video in a blog post. What to do if your venue shuts down. And we do advise our clients to, you know, what insurance is your friend?

Shari Rivkind:

You know, it's really the best guard against it. We had a really big, very unique venue called the Art Factory, which was in Patterson, New Jersey, which was a big, big venue at the time. And to make a long story short, they ended up by a bankruptcy court order shutting down.

Leah Haslage:

Oh, my gosh.

Shari Rivkind:

Little to no notice to a lot of brides and grooms who were then left scrambling.

Morgan Weil:

And this just happened.

Shari Rivkind:

So there's the two things to it. Our biggest advice to everyone, it can happen to anyone. You never really know what's going on with your venue. And you see that from like big entities that file bankruptcy. You're like, what you mean Bed Bath & Beyond is in bankruptcy? I love that place. I'm there every week.

Leah Haslage:

You know, right. Like, aren't I funding it? Yeah.

Shari Rivkind:

So the bottom line is the best guard against it is really to get wedding insurance. And if there's one thing we harp on, it's wedding insurance. And our big tip on wedding insurance has to do with the fact that get it from the get go. When you do that first venue, which we tell everyone, venue first, you know, it really sets the stage.

And the bottom line is you will find that a lot of your different vendors will basically require you to have insurance and if you take one policy from the get go. You're better off than taking individual policies because a lot of the vendors offer you to take individual policies.

Leah Haslage:

So it's better to say have your own from the front than taking theirs?

Shari Rivkind:

Well, yes, because in other words, you're paying, you know, 600 here, 300 there, this, this, this. You can have one big policy and you can take and add on as you want. Oh, I want my gown covered. They have gown coverage. And the basic coverage is liability and cancellation. And, you know, again, we get into a lot of questions regarding liability if something happens, a slip and fall.

Leah Haslage:

Yeah. What if like grandma's getting down to the cupid shuffle and like falls and breaks her hip? Like who's responsible? Is it on you as the couple or is that on the venue? Or is that just like, sorry, grandma, like it's your fault for getting down like. Who's responsible?

Shari Rivkind:

It's actually decently common. And this is terrible to say, the picture out of my entire wedding that we are most fond of is my mother slipping on the dance floor. And it's a still picture, but it shows that moment because she was having so much fun and going a little wild.

Leah Haslage:

So your grandma literally did fall. So then who is responsible? Does it factor in your contract or your insurance coverage?

Shari Rivkind:

This is the thing, and it's another thing. When you're doing a contract, number one, make sure that if it's a venue, that they have the liability insurance. Your caterer to have liability insurance. Especially caterers, believe it or not, because there's a lot of different things. where they're hiring people, there's labor laws involved, and you've got to make sure they properly cover and pay people. Weird laws get into play. Let's say you have a Massachusetts caterer come to New York or New Jersey. They have to abide by New Jersey's state labor laws, which they may not be familiar with. And, you know, there's all sorts of craziness involved. So make sure each and every vendor has the appropriate liability insurance to cover their field across the board. Down to your musicians, their liability might be having proper licenses and copyrights for music.

Leah Haslage:

Yeah. Very true.

Shari Rivkind:

So there's things like that.

Leah Haslage:

There's some venues that insurance is mandatory, which I didn't realize until I was going through the process and touring places. Because museums and botanical gardens and places like that that have fairly important and rare items, they don't want you having like your groomsmen get hammered and puking in like a very rare orchid bush. You know what I mean? So keep that in mind with some of these places. It's going to be mandatory for you to have like a million dollar insurance policy.

Shari Rivkind:

Exactly. And, you know, especially like they say, like parks and public places, it's just required, you know, for everyone's best interest. You know, we get back to the question, who is liable? Yeah, it depends, you know, if somebody slips and falls, you know, whose fault is it if it's on the dance floor, let's say, and the normal answer is, ultimately, it seems like it would be the venue and their liability policy would cover it. However, it's not necessarily the truth.

Bottom line is, we all know we have a very litigation happy world. it is quite possible that not only would a person who was injured sue the venue, but they might sue the bride and groom too. And even if they didn't, the venue might include the bride and groom in the lawsuit. So it's really important to have liability coverage.

Leah Haslage:

So what does a couple do if a vendor decides to back out last minute? Let's circle back to that for a second. Like if it's the day of or day before and like…

Shari Rivkind:

With Art Factory, what I thought was really great was that the Internet community came together like it was so wonderful. It really was. And, you know, I was really on top of this at the time and people were asking me questions and on Facebook groups, you know, Instagram everywhere. And the venues, because, you know, this was in northern New Jersey, the venues they offered up if they had availability.

Morgan Weil:

And they offered it at a discount, which was so generous.

Shari Rivkind:

Really, it showed such a community effort. So I think if you, number one, what we tell everyone, as to each and every vendor, you go have a backup plan. And I don't care if you have the fanciest florist in the universe, if you can't find like some other options, you go to Trader Joe's and you get your bouquets there. You know what I'm saying? It's one of these things, have a backup for anything that could go astray.

Leah Haslage:

Oh, thank you for saying that, because I am a plan B person. And so I co-sign on that. always have a backup.

Morgan Weil:

And a lot of people don't want to put in the effort in plan B, but it really is, it's so crucial.

Leah Haslage:

Do you think people assume they won't need it, or do you think it's a fear that it's gonna actually happen and they have to go to plan B?

Morgan Weil:

I think they think they don't need it. So many people feel invincible.

Shari Rivkind:

Yeah, I agree.

Morgan Weil:

I really, and it's like, it's not gonna happen to me.

Leah Haslage:

Well, too, it also takes a lot just to find that top person that you want. That's so much effort. So then to have to consider a plan B is, feels like so much more work. You know what I mean?

Shari Rivkind:

I think at the end of it, though, you really have to realize, you know, it is what you make it. So things will go wrong. They just do. And whether you let them get to you or not will decide whether it's still a wonderful day. And you can make it wonderful no matter what happens. And you just got to have a, we can do this.

Leah Haslage:

Speaking of which, something that people don't like to talk about or think about or think that they don't need, but is a really great idea, is prenups.

Morgan Weil:

We love prenups.

Leah Haslage:

I'm for prenups. My boyfriend and I, we've been dating over a year now, but we were like four or five months into dating and we had the prenup discussion.

Morgan Weil:

That's awesome. We already knew we were going to be together and talking finances, it just kind of came up, you know?

Shari Rivkind:

See, that's great. That's unusual.

Leah Haslage:

It is unusual. But we're also in our 40s and have been both divorced. So like, we're not shy about it, you know?

Morgan Weil:

You have the experience and you know better.

Leah Haslage:

Yeah, I wish I would have had a prenup. It would have made things slightly easier in my divorce, I think. But you don't go into a marriage thinking you're going to get divorced. But whether it's a divorce or death or something like you should have some kind of protection because you don't know what's going to happen.

Morgan Weil:

It acts as insurance. And we love when, you know, we do a lot of wedding shows and we do get a lot of brides and grooms coming to our booth and they say, Oh, you know, cause there's a lot of misconceptions as to prenups. A lot of people think it's only for the wealthy, you know, what is yours is yours and what's mine is mine, but it really is not about that. What it is about is to have an open conversation about your financials and how you want to plan your future together. It does really create a wonderful roadmap as to how you're going to live your lives together. And if things don't go, you know, they go south, you're both protected. You both know your rights. and your financials are, you know…

Leah Haslage:

An example that comes to mind is everyone remembers Nick and Jessica, right? Newlyweds and how big Nick Lachey and Jessica Simpson were at the time. And when they got married, Nick was more famous and had more money. Jessica didn't have her fashion line yet, right? Once they did the show, their careers catapulted them as a couple, you know, became this big thing. Then she started getting her fashion lines, stuff like that, and then she became the breadwinner. Next thing you know, they got divorced, but they never had a prenup because she was talked into not signing one and he let it slide. And so guess who ended up getting more money at the end because they didn't have the prenup?

She had to pay up because she made more and there was no protection there. You don't think you're going to get divorced, obviously, but if you, you know, make a lot of money or if you decide to stay home and watch the kids and you're not making an income and, you know, and once you get children involved, that becomes a whole other thing with custody and stuff. So if you have multiple properties, if you have businesses together or separate, you need to consider all those things, right?

Morgan Weil:

Absolutely. And we both promote people having the conversation about whether or not to get a prenup because first of all you should have the discussion and then secondly you need to both see if you are going to proceed with a prenup that you're doing this during a time where you love each other, you want to do the fair thing by each other. It is a document that is supposed to be about fairness and it has to be reasonable in order for you to sign it. And you do have to hire independent counsel in order to review it.

Shari Rivkind:

It's funny. We actually produced a Bridelawyers prenup planner workshop.

Leah Haslage:

Awesome.

Shari Rivkind:

With a workbook. And the reason is because a lot of people, what we're finding and keep in mind, this is not how you, Mr. Layperson or Ms. Layperson should write your own prenup. This is just what you need to consider, how the law applies generally to basic things. And it's, it's one of these things when you talk about what you should consider, it's not just divorce. Right. It's also if someone gets disabled, if someone dies, you know, what's going to happen once there's children, you know, and people don't think that, wait a minute, we're both working, maybe we're equally contributing, but then suppose one spouse, you know, decides they want to change a career or one spouse wants to take a maternity leave or whatever, what then?

So it becomes a roadmap for your entire financial future of things to consider. Along with saving money in the event of divorce. Because attorney’s fees and costs go crazy. And a lot of people think your prenup is, just what you owned before is yours and what I own is mine and it's just it can be so much more than that. And there's a lot to consider that people don't. We’ll take a typical example where, okay fine you own properties beforehand and you own businesses and I own mine. Yours is yours and mine is mine.

The problem becomes that at law, there's this concept of commingling. So basically, you have separate assets that are separate, and they can be what you want to be separate. And most assets before the marriage are separate. But a lot of things have a way of, number one, growing. And if there's a claim can be made to the growth in that asset. In addition, you guys are making incomes, we would hope, right? And if you're making income post marriage, That income is marital income. So I can say to you, your student loan debt that you're going to hang on to for the next 20 years, that's your debt. But how are you going to pay for it? We would assume you're going to pay with it for post-marital income. And right there, you're commingling.

Leah Haslage:

It's like the specifics like in your wedding contract, you have to have it in your prenup, too.

Shari Rivkind:

You do. And people don't think of… And that's why, like, you know, they have like these online services and things where it's just fill in blanks and they think they're being covered. Sometimes things like that, entering an agreement that you don't know what you're agreeing to and that's incomplete can actually hurt you more than it can help you.

Leah Haslage:

Did you ever see “When Harry Met Sally?”

Shari Rivkind:

Yes.

Leah Haslage:

It makes you think of the Billy Crystal line when he's triggered after seeing Helen, his ex-wife, and he's at his best friend's like moving in, happy occasion. And he is like, do yourselves a favor, put your names in your books, because one day you might be going through the legal fine of that's mine, this is yours.

Shari Rivkind:

I have had people fight about all the following. Bono albums, when nobody was even playing them anymore. I had a huge case, and it's my favorite case, and it was about a dog support case. We had two champion Samoyeds. It was the couple's children. And when the wife, I was representing her, really pushed and pushed for me to get really dog support. I was like, who knows, you know, the judge may be a dog lover. We ended up settling and getting the dog support.

Leah Haslage:

That's awesome. How can we have this conversation as a couple about prenups and let it strengthen the relationship as opposed to creating all this tension and like, oh, we're going to be fighting about all these things when it's like.

Morgan Weil:

Right. There's such a stigma with prenups. And we really urge, you know, our brides and grooms, even before they even talk with their significant other for them to talk to us first as attorneys and for them to know their rights. Because so many times, um, our brides and grooms, they come to us and they're like, well, I already conceded to that point. Um, and once you have that expectation there, it's really hard to back down and get it revoked. So we really do urge our brides and grooms, please talk to us. We are here to help, you know, give you the information you need to know in order to decide what's best for you and both of you in order to proceed.

Shari Rivkind:

The big thing about a prenup that couples need to understand is, you know, you're working on it together. In the event something happens, you right now, you're in love, but heaven forbid something happens. How can you both be taken care of in the best manner. And, you know, when you get into an actual divorce, the couples, they're fighting. You know, it becomes a power play sometimes. And couples do terrible, terrible things as part of that power play.

And here, while you're so in love, you know, and thinking from a good place in your heart, you know, because when it comes to a prenup, there's always a very even place that this is a fair agreement and ultimately a court. will not enforce an agreement if it was unfair at the time that it was written. It's one of the standards. It has, you have to have independent counsel or have waived it, meaning say, nah, I don't need an attorney. Opportunity, not been under duress, which means you can't, you know, hold a knife to someone's throat or, you know, things like that. And then full disclosure and the agreement needs to be fair when written.

Leah Haslage:

What are some other ways you want to debunk the myths that prenups are this scary thing that's setting you up for failure?

Shari Rivkind:

I don't think they really set you up for failure. You know, they say the biggest reason for divorce is financial matters. And I think it has you have a healthy discussion. Number one, the mere fact that you are doing disclosure. So if you have that little hidden credit card debt from your little shopping addiction, and you're talking to shopping addicted people. You have to disclose that. And at the get go, you're going to have a discussion about it. I think like a lot of people, sometimes at the honeymoon, I'll tell you my honeymoon story. So my mom was collecting envelopes of checks at the wedding and handed my ex-husband at the time, he hands, you know, he demands the checks at the end of the night. Believe it or not, we go on this very lengthy honeymoon in Hawaii and we blew all the wedding money, blew all of it. We bought artwork, you know, flew over volcanoes. I mean, you know, we had a great time.

Morgan Weil:

And we do not recommend this to any couple.

Shari Rivkind:

Leave those checks at home. But the bottom line is it was sort of there for the first time I started to get inside to some of the spending habits of his. By doing a prenup you're getting a clue at the beginning and you're gonna see where you guys stand so that's number one.

You're also gonna learn a lot about each other, in what you think is fair and what you don't. And you can have discussions around it to approach things, you know, you get into a lot of these issues with professional practices where, you know, and we're lawyers. So, you know, we went through a lot of long years of law and we really built up a practice and this and that, and that has value. And it may be, you know, no, don't come near it. You know, this is mine. You can't touch it, you know? Um, but there's considerations regarding that. I used to say that, you know, in many ways, our old fashioned notions of marriage are just so different than those of today. Where, you know, and it's funny because as women, I think we still complain. We don't feel we have true equality, but we have a lot more than we used to. And it's therefore a different world. So in the past, where your standard prenup scenario was usually the wealthy man with the gold digger. He had to protect himself, you know?

Leah Haslage:

I think that is the first stigma people think of. It's either celebrities or the rich guy with the young chick. Those are the two things you think of, right?

Shari Rivkind:

But today you have so many couples marrying later. They've acquired real assets.

Leah Haslage:

Or have children from previous relationships.

Shari Rivkind:

And that is a huge area. And it's funny when you talk about those children from previous marriages, we have a lot of situations where couples aren't even getting married. They're living together. And that becomes something that may be ripe for not a prenup agreement, but a cohabitation agreement.

Leah Haslage:

Yeah. I want to ask you about that. I saw that on your Instagram. Tell us about that.

Morgan Weil:

So it's for couples who live together and they want a contract to be in place, but they're not getting married and it can cover everything from, you know, property, um, that they share to what else, Shari?

Shari Rivkind:

What I think it could cover the same things that a prenup does. But where it really becomes crucial is that a lot of, um, couples who are a little bit older who may have children from previous marriages, they're choosing not to get married. And we recently had people bring to light. One of the big considerations has to do with even older couples who may have social security benefits coming in that they would lose due to remarriage. or other considerations and where they want to protect their assets for their own children.

Leah Haslage:

Oh, that makes so much sense.

Shari Rivkind:

And in those cases, it's really important to either have a cohabitation agreement or to set up by way of trusts and different things like very complicated estate matters. where you can actually set up a system that will protect your assets for your own family at a much later point.

Leah Haslage:

So would you recommend that if a couple's living together, and they do want to get married, but it's going to be a few years, so they're living together, would you recommend getting that before the prenup? Or if someone that's listening right now, maybe they already got married, but they're still listening to this for advice and ideas, or they know someone getting married, would you recommend a postnup? I know that was a thing for a while. There was a cohabitation, probably a better option.

Morgan Weil:

No, absolutely. We do get some couples who, you know, doing last minute tidying up before the wedding and they're like, oh, we really want to get a prenup. But, you know, we literally have like only a few weeks left and we recommend them, you know, after they get married to come to us for a postnuptial agreement.

Shari Rivkind:

You know, generally they say that a court of law will more closely scrutinize a post-nup agreement. Because you're already married. There's this weird sort of concept called consideration in law that you're sort of giving and giving up things as an equal bargain for exchange. And when it comes to you're already married, what's that exchange? So they'll look at it more closely to make sure that it's fair and that everything's adhered to. But, you know, you bring up an interesting thing. If you've been living together and maybe you want to get married, maybe you never want to get married. What point in time should you consider a cohabitation agreement? We had, unfortunately, even a weirder circumstance where a couple is planning on getting married. but it's maybe a year down the line or two, and they sign an apartment together. And then what happens once they break up?

Morgan Weil:

And cancel the wedding, which happened.

Shari Rivkind:

And cancels the wedding. And the question is, you're both legally liable to that landlord, but more likely than not, the way you signed the lease, if you both signed it, you're what we call jointly and severally liable, which means you're both liable for the whole thing.

So we had a circumstance where the groom refused to pay for the apartment. The apartment was bought jointly with the concept they'd both be contributing. So now the poor no longer bride was left with the entire financial obligation. And the question becomes, can you sue each other? And legally, It's a little dicey. It's really dicey. You would think it's automatic that, wait a minute, we both did. But that's just giving your obligation to the landlord.

Leah Haslage:

So what happened with this case? I'm fascinated.

Shari Rivkind:

That's not regarding your obligations to each other. And it's almost, it becomes this trust, well, he'll do the right thing and this and that. Bottom line is in the situation where you are co-mingling funds and are spending money, which you're jointly responsible, where it's more than you think you could handle on your own, if forced to, that's a situation where you really should get some kind of agreement.

Leah Haslage:

So since they didn't have one, what happened? Did she have to pay up everything and he got off the hook or is it like an ongoing lawsuit that you can't talk about?

Morgan Weil:

They were left with the lease and he happened to move back to his hometown and she was left with the lease.

Shari Rivkind:

And he paid up a little bit of it, but not what he should have.

Morgan Weil:

It wasn't sufficient.

Shari Rivkind:

Which can get us to another crazy issue. What do you do when you have these venues, right? And you have a legal claim, but it may just be sort of a smaller amount because we all always talk about, well, she could have sued him or maybe she could have, you know, and the thing is, while in many situations you have the ability to sue, it's not always worthwhile.

Leah Haslage:

It's going to cost you more in the end to go through the suing process.

Shari Rivkind:

Lawsuits cost a lot. There's, you know, special civil part is the lower end. There's also small claims courts. If it's under a certain amount and you can handle things yourself. And it's funny because in New Jersey, for different levels of courts, depending on the amount of dispute, they actually have a requirement that if a company is a incorporated company, Uh, they're actually required to, to hire a lawyer and they cannot represent themselves in court for a corporation. Is that weird? Um, but the bottom line is lawsuits are very expensive.

You know, I read a lot of Facebook groups all the time to really keep my fingers on what's going on out there. And I'm always seeing people in different, you know, brides to be telling each other, oh, you could sue them, you could sue them and hire an attorney and you can get, oh, this should be a class action.

Attorneys don't work that way, you know? And it's one of these weird things that everybody is very used to a world where they hear that attorneys will take thing on a one third contingency. OK. And this is sort of common for slip and fall accidents and things like that. It's also common for some types of collection suits. But when you have a contract dispute, that is not a collection suit. That is going to be a disputed thing. And it's going to be very difficult to find some attorney who would take it on a one third if they win sort of basis. They really won't.

Leah Haslage:

There's so much more to unpack, so don't miss part two of our discussion with Morgan and Shari.

Thanks for joining us today! Be sure to subscribe wherever you get podcasts so you never miss an episode. Give us a follow on social media and visit thebridechilla.com. To leave a question you'd like to hear answered on the show, head to speakpipe.com/bridechillapodcast, also linked in the description.

Bridechilla is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. Thanks to our producer and engineer, Gray Sienna Longfellow, and our executive producers, Brigid Coyne and Gerardo Orlando. And of course, a special thanks to Aleisha, our OG bridechilla, and Meghan Ely of OFD Consulting. I'm your host, Leah Haslage. Until next time, Chillas!