Ben 00:02-00:05

Mariana, welcome back to Crime Capsule.

Marianna 00:05-00:07

Thank you. Thank you for having me again.

Ben 00:08-01:33

So as we said last week, your book has so many different kinds of sites and cases across Staten Island. And everywhere you travel, there's something new to discover, and there's something interesting to unearth or explore. And one of the sites which you write about is It's powerful for a couple of different reasons. Some folks may have only come into awareness of it after what happened 20 years ago, but you write that the Fresh Kills landfill actually has a much longer history than when it became a resting place for the debris from the Twin Towers after 9-11. I was so grateful that you included Fresh Kills in your book because it really did feel like a way of honoring another part of that story as to what happened after 9-11. But would you just tell us a little bit, we'll come to that moment shortly, but would you just tell us a little bit about kind of the deeper history? It was founded in the 20th century and it actually had kind of a really unusual trajectory before it rose to national prominence in that way.

Marianna 01:34-07:22

Mm-hmm, of course. Well, Staten Island during the early 1900s was basically the country. People went to Staten Island to recover, to rest, to use the beach. I remember my mother during the 1940s when she came from Italy telling me they would take the ferry over to Staten Island and visit people in the country. But after World War II, the population began to grow a little bit, slowly. But the western shoreline remained rural. So the Fresh Kills Landfill was actually established in 1948. And I have to tell you, Ben, I never knew it was called the Fresh Kills Landfall. To me, it was always the dump. And that's all we ever knew it as the dump.

Okay, I didn't know it had a name actually until probably 20 years ago, sorry to say. But anyway, it became the dump and it primarily handled household garbage from New York City. And it was the largest landfill in the world, believe it or not. And at its peak in 1987, Fresh Kill received up to 29,000 tons of trash daily and employed 680 people and about 150 million tons of solid waste across four mounds. So there were these four mounds of trash and you could actually see them from the road and you smelled them from miles away. So every time you went to New Jersey, you knew you were approaching Staten Island by the dump.

And it was definitely a deterrent. People hated that smell. People were buying houses, but the big complaint was that it was by the dump and it smelled. And unfortunately, there were very high cancer rates as well. And that's been documented. So anyway, by 1996, A state law mandated that the landfill stop accepting solid waste by 2001. So there was that period of time, and two of the mounds were closed and covered. And the last waste was actually December 31st, 2001. So, but the actual, the last barge of garbage arrived on March 22, 2001. So if you're following the timeline, you'll see where we're going for that. Right. With that.

Okay. So, on 9-11, Obviously, there was ground zero and there were definitely efforts to recover as many people as we could and to get as much information that we could at the time. After 9-11, the Governor Pataki amended the closure order to allow the handling of the World Trade materials to be received at fresh kills. And of course, It's a little emotional for me because I live here and my husband was a police officer and he passed away of 9-11 cancer. So while all this was going on, it was emotional. So there were recovery efforts over a 10-month period. Workers screened and sifted through 1.2 million tons of World Trade Center material. And they made sure that anything identifiable was retrieved for identification and safekeeping. And they really did the best they could. I mean, they found so many things from stores, like a barber pole and, you know, fire hydrants, but there was a tent set up by the FBI and they had these sheds and tents and bones and anything that could have DNA remains were separated and sifted through. And they made a great effort to return anything that they could to the families of the people that did not survive. So that's what was going on here in 2001 at Great Kills, at our dump. It's a remarkable… And it was interesting, they wanted to change the name. They felt that Great Kills wasn't a great name anymore for this place. But actually in Dutch, I believe the word kills means water, river. So they left it, you know, because we have Arthur Kill Road. and this was Great Kills, it's commonly used. And that was in 2001. And since then, there's been a tremendous renovation, restructuring, they're making it a beautiful park, and I think they even give tours and it's… I don't have all the statistics, but it's projected to be a beautiful park by, I don't know what year, but soon, hopefully. And I'm sure they'll have a memorial area as well.

Ben 07:23-09:39

Yeah. You know, it's a remarkable story. And first of all, I mean, this goes without saying, but I do just want to say it explicitly that, you know, how grateful we are for the life of service and sacrifice that your late husband gave to the city. I mean, absolutely. And, you you know, his story just reflects the absolute best, right, of what people give, you know, to others and how grateful we are for that. You know, I think one thing that you write about in your book, which I think is really important to understand here, is this question of scale, right? I mean, the site is enormous. It is massive. You write that it's three times the size of Central Park, And if anyone out there in Radioland can just imagine how big Central Park is already, triple that, and now we're starting to talk about the area that you're describing. here. And so for you to, we'll come to the haunting aspect in a moment, but, you know, for you to detail the afterlife of what had effectively been, you know, a toxic waste environment, right, is a really special part of the story of Fresh Kills. And I was just so grateful that you included the detailed account of the remediation process that is taking there. How easy would it be to just let it, let it fester, you know, and, and, you know, we're, we're better than that, right? I mean, you write, you write that we're better than that. And so, um, really appreciate your including all of that. Now you do, we are, we are in our spooky season and you do write that There are some curious incidents going on on that part of the island, right? And I'm thinking of a passage on page 88 of your book where you describe a couple of different things that have happened there. I was wondering if you would maybe treat us to just a quick Quick reading. I'm thinking of the paragraph that begins while at the site an nypd officer. Okay, sure That's a good one. I got me. I've got a little I gotta warn you mariana. I got a little tingle on my spine.

Marianna 09:39-11:17

So That's about sergeant frank mara, right? That's one, that's the one. Okay. While at the site, an NYPD police officer, retired NYPD Sergeant Frank Marra, 48, claimed he saw the ghost of a black woman dressed in white like a Red Cross worker from the Second World War. He claimed he saw the specter while going through the debris from the World Trade Center attacks at Fresh Kills Landfill in Staten Island between September 2001 and February 2002. The ghost, he said, held a tray of sandwiches and always stood more than 50 yards away before vanishing. Mara claims that at first he thought she was trying to help, being a first responder. He saw her only a few times and always from a distance, more than 50 yards away each time. But he recalled that the apparition looked like a person. And while these were rare sightings, Mara stashed them away as memories until about a year later when he spoke to a retired crime scene detective who mentioned the ghost. The detective asked him if he had ever heard stories about the old Red Cross worker trying to serve sandwiches and coffee out by the sifters, which brought Mara's memories of the woman rushing back. However, Sergeant, do you want me to continue?

Ben 11:18-11:19

Yeah, one more short paragraph.

Marianna 11:19-11:47

Frank Marrow was not the only one who saw the specter, who, as a psychic medium explained, could have been a soul collector. A soul collector is a person who guided people to the afterlife. Along with the Red Cross worker, cops and volunteers witnessed other things in the landfill, from shadows to large black masses. And Marrow wrote a book about it.

Ben 11:48-12:17

I love this. I love this because it speaks to what we were talking about last week, that sense of multiple independent witnesses, you know, who saw something very similar and they had not talked about it beforehand, they had not collaborated on a story, you know, before they met. You just, here you have two guys, two different times, two different beats, but they saw the same thing and they don't have an explanation for it. That's kind of spooky, right?

Marianna 12:18-12:19

Sure is.

Ben 12:19-13:44

Yeah. Well, it's a remarkable chapter, and just this wonderful, comprehensive book on Staten Island. Now, I want to turn to something kind of fun before we begin to wrap up. There's a couple things in here which folks may not know at all about Staten Island, and our regular listeners know. that I am a sucker for animal stories. You know, I just, you give me a dog or a bear or a wombat or, you know, something, you know, with wings at night in a West Virginia forest and I'm just all like, gravy, baby, let's go. So, you have a great addition to that list. And I was wondering, Will you spook us a little bit with tales of, now you call it The Ghost Dog, and I have to say, The Phantom Dog or The Ghost Dog, just for purposes of clarity, this is not a film starring Forrest Whitaker, which is a great film. It's one of my classic films. Oh, it's amazing. Classic, classic, you know, sort of 90s homage to Japanese samurai films. But anyway, this is not about Forrest Whitaker. This is about Staten Island. Take us to Victory Boulevard.

Marianna 13:45-16:06

Okay, so the Phantom Dog on Victory Boulevard. Now, throughout history, cultural significance of dog has been part of human culture and mythology for thousands of years. I mean, they've been used as, served as hunting companions, protectors, and pets. But in Staten Island, Before the Revolutionary War, where the woods were dense and very sparsely populated, it was believed to be haunted by ghosts, witches, and the devil. So the fear of these ghosts, witches, and the devil was in these people who basically would go out drinking and encounter them. The Signs Crossroad was a notorious haunted location. It was in an area called Bull's Head, and this area had tales of a tall, dark figure with fiery eyes who would haunt taverns and follow those who caught his attention. So it starts out as a man with fiery eyes. Now, near Victory Boulevard and Signs Road, a colossal black dog with glowing red eyes was said to roam the area, howling mournfully and striking fear into the locals. The dog was as large as the horses that used to frequent the roads, but he moved gracefully like a shadow, and he left a lasting impression on those who encountered it. In other words, he scared the heck out of them. Yeah. Kind of scaring the heck out of me right now. One man attempted to confront the ghostly dog with an axe, but the dog vanished. rendering his efforts useless, leading to continued sightings of the creature. So this oversized dog became a symbol of the supernatural tales in the area, leaving questions about this mystery. Now, throughout history, dogs and wolves usually represented protection and companionship, but in this case, I think they were going for the devil.

Ben 16:08-16:27

I've always wondered, when you have a supernatural dog, phantom dog, ghost dog, what do you feed it? Where do you get, like, phantom dog treats? You know, if you wanted to just, you know, how do you get that spectral water dish full? You know, I mean, if you just want to show a little hospitality to the critter, I don't know.

Marianna 16:27-16:28

A gesture on their own.

Ben 16:30-18:27

I guess so. I guess maybe I shouldn't ask these kinds of questions because I might have the pleasure of finding out. Okay, so you have in your book, our last figures here are deeply, deeply important to American history and folklore. And I will confess, I learned so much in your last chapters when things I'd never heard before in my life about two people who we all know by name, okay, but who, as you write, had parts of their story that have been, how do I say this, more or less like subsumed by popular culture, right? So, it's like you have two historic people who, what we get on the back end, 200 years after they both lived, is a collection of kind of American myths, American folktales about them, right? It's like our pop culture now with these two guys. But part of the argument of your book is that there are actually much more substantive portions of their lives which never get told, okay? And that is fascinating because it kind of rewrites part of the story that we are fed as school kids in George Washington and Cherry Tree and that sort of thing. It's that kind of thing. All right. And these two figures – I'm not trying to bury the lead. I'm just trying to set the context. These two figures are Ichabod Crane. I know everybody's going to know that name, even if they don't remember why. And Aaron Burr, who, of course, has come back into some prominence with the Hamilton musical. So, they both have these startling Staten Island connections, and they're fascinating. So, you bring them in at the very end. How did you come across them and what's the deal?

Marianna 18:28-21:47

Well, I have to admit, like you, all I knew about Aaron Burr was that he had a duel with Alexander Hamilton. That's all I remembered from school. And I guess I taught it a little bit during my fourth grade teaching years. But what I learned that Aaron Burr was a very interesting character. And actually, after the duel, he wasn't even arrested. Even though he murdered him, it was fine. I mean, I guess if it's consensual, it's OK. That's how it went. But eventually, he was brought up on treason, because what he did try to do was start his own country. Okay, so he was trying to, I guess, collude with Spain. So that's where he got in the most trouble. And that's when he had to flee to Europe. But before that, he was a pretty prominent figure in politics. He was really a politician. He was first a New York attorney general. He declined a seat on the Supreme Court. And he ran on the presidential ticket with Thomas Jefferson. And he was actually vice president when he had that duel. And then he just shot him dead and went back to work the next day. But there was a lot of tension. People were not happy that he killed Alexander, but they had a long running fuel for years. But anyway, he lived in Europe for a time and during that time he had a lot of tragedy as well. his grandson died and his daughter disappeared and uh supposedly his daughter actually is a ghost at one of the seaports and people say claim that they see her but there was a lot of scandal and um he like i said he attempted to start his own nation And he had a wife, Eliza Moral-Jamel, and apparently his ghost is in that, I guess he travels, because his ghost is in that mansion as well. And he didn't get along with his wife. They were only married for about four months, and then she kicked him out. But she filed for divorce, and apparently it took several years to get a divorce in those days. And by the time he was supposed to sign the divorce decree, that was the day that he died. So she never actually divorced him. So she went around saying she was the widow of the vice president. She liked that status better than being his wife. So Aaron Burr actually died in a Staten Island boarding house. The name later was called the St. James Hotel, where guests could stay in his former room. So they definitely capitalized on that. But his final days were filled with loneliness and minister visits, and they made a death mask of him after he died, which was very common at the time. Antonio Meucci has a death mask in the Garibaldi Meucci Museum. So that was the story of his restless spirit that still haunts various places. Let's see, what else did I know?

Ben 21:47-21:59

And the St. James Hotel you write, I mean, that structure is now no longer, that was later demolished and there's something else in its place. But the spot is still marked, is that right?

Marianna 21:59-22:06

Yes, yes. There's probably a plaque up there. Staten Island's famous for plaques.

Ben 22:06-22:09

There you go, there you go. We've got to tell people where the ghosts are.

Marianna 22:10-22:25

Yeah, right? I mean, another story, I'm not going to get into it, but unfortunately, a shopping plaza was built over a cemetery and by the time it was discovered, it was too late to do anything, so they put up a plaque.

Ben 22:26-23:17

I mean, have these people never seen a John Romero movie? I mean, there's just some things you don't do, you know? I mean, of course, here in New Orleans, the famous Curse of the Saints was that the Superdome was built over the Girard Cemetery, and that's why they couldn't win a game for, or a Super Bowl for, you know, 40, 50 odd years before. before the curse was finally broken. Just don't do it, guys. Just don't do it. Okay, so Ichabod Crane. Now, Ichabod Crane is a fascinating one because And, you know, we'll, I want our readers to have the pleasure of really reading your account because it is compelling. But here's the, well, do this. Tell us, tell us who he was and tell us who he wasn't because that's what's the most important thing is who Ichabod Crane was not.

Marianna 23:19-25:23

Okay, so if you remember from your school days or whenever, he was a fictional character. He was the protagonist in Washington Irving's The Legend of Sleepy Hollow. He was a schoolteacher and he was in love with Catherine von Tessel and he's portrayed as a tall and lanky schoolmaster, but he's highly superstitious and he strongly believes in supernatural phenomenon and he believes in the legend of the Headless Horseman. So he attempts to court Katrina Van Tassel, who's an heiress, but he faces competition from Abraham, I think it's Abraham Brombones, Van Brunt. So after allegedly proposing to Katrina, Crane is chased by the headless horseman on his way home. The horseman throws a pumpkin at Crane, leading to his mysterious disappearance. So basically, he was a superstitious fool and kind of a buffoon and really portrayed that way in the short story. Now, Washington Irving took liberty with the fact that he met a man named Ichabod Crane. He actually may not have met him, but they were in the army at the same time. And he heard the name and was fascinated with it. And he decided to use it as one of his character names. Now, the real Ichabod Crane was born in 1787 in Elizabeth, New Jersey, and he was a seasoned military officer, not a timid schoolmaster like Washington Irving's Legend of Sleepy Hollow. His name, he served his country bravely for 48 years, and he participated in the War of 1812, the Black Hawk War, and the Second Seminole War. So this was really a seasoned veteran hero.

Ben 25:24-25:45

He was a soldier's soldier. I mean, this guy had, he was as decorated as they. Yeah, you know, and you write that he was muscular and that he was cut for, you know, fit for duty and none of this nervous ninny kind of thing that you get in the Washington Irving story. So yeah.

Marianna 25:46-27:04

And his family had a history of distinguished service as well, and they were involved in the Continental Congress, the Revolutionary War, the Civil War. Unlike the fictional character, Crane lived in Staten Island and he died of natural causes in 1857. Now, he lived on Victory Boulevard. Unfortunately, his home was demolished in 1989, even though they tried to preserve it, which I'm surprised because they've preserved so many lesser homes, in my opinion, and moved them all to Richmond Town, but I guess funds were low that year. So despite his achievements, Crane was remembered more for the fictional coward name and his cowardice than for his bravery. And he was so embarrassed by the name because this was the man was alive. He was walking around. And when he told people that he was the real Ichabod Crane, they said, oh, like. like Washington Irving, and he was like, no, not like Washington Irving, I'm the real deal. So he was really angry about it. And there's probably a plaque where his house was. So that's the real story behind Ichabod Crane. It's a shame.

Ben 27:04-27:43

You know, you mentioned Victory Boulevard. There's no known record of him fending off any ghost dogs, you know, or possibly befriending them. But interestingly, the story does come full circle in a really pleasing way, which is that you write that his great nephew, Stephen Crane, also became an author. And most folks will, a little bit later in their American literature classes, read a very famous novel by Stephen Crane called The Red Badge of Courage. And here you have, yeah, here you have kind of a reversal of the Washington Irving portrayal, don't you?

Marianna 27:45-27:56

Yeah Yeah, I guess somebody had to get a better story out there To bring the crane name to the forefront again there to correct the record.

Ben 27:56-28:30

Absolutely Well, it's fascinating and I tell you one of the things that I love about your book is Mariana, is that you just see how densely populated Staten Island is with stories. You know, there may have been a time when it was not densely populated with people, that has since changed, but it is absolutely just crammed full of all of these fascinating accounts and legends and tales, some of which are spooky, some of which are simply intriguing, but they are all just as rich as the day is long. And I was so happy to get to spend some time there through your book. So, thank you.

Marianna 28:30-28:32

Thank you. Thank you.

Ben 28:32-29:02

It was a pleasure. I do have one tiny little question for you before we get out of here. And you probably have seen this coming. You've probably been wondering, why hasn't he asked me this yet? And I'm going to do it. I have to do it. Because if I don't do it, I'm falling down on the job. Are there any ghosts associated with the Staten Island Ferry? And I'm not talking about Billy Joel. I'm talking about the the boat that doesn't run anymore. Are there any legends, any folktales, anything with that ferry?

Marianna 29:02-29:59

Well, I did a lot of research on the ferry and I really couldn't find anything that would stick, to tell you the truth. There was something I wrote about, because there were many ferries. It wasn't just the one that exists now. So, over the years, you know, Staten Island wasn't really connected by bridges years ago. So, I think I wrote about one of the ferries and the area which it connected in New Jersey and there might have been a little bit of a ghost story there. But as far as the Staten Island Ferry that we all know, I really couldn't find anything substantial to write about. I'm pretty sure I tried. If you read the book, you will find something about one of the other ferries. I don't remember which one right now, but I do remember there being something.

Ben 30:00-30:16

Well, you never know whether we, you know, it's possible we are living in the age in which the legend is being born, right? I mean, maybe something will happen that gives rise to a legend years from now and we can look back on that.

Marianna 30:16-30:43

I mean, there were incidences on the ferry. I mean, the Westfield blew up and people died. So there were definitely spirits floating around the water, possibly. I mean, that's all I could think of right now. And there were accidents, yeah, in the last century as well. So maybe those spirits will rise. I like to think so.

Ben 30:43-30:57

I mean, it's spooky season, so let's just go ahead and say that they will. I love it. I love it. I love it. Well, this has been such a joy. Now, tell me this, where can folks get a hold of this book or any of your previous books? Where can they find your work?

Marianna 30:58-31:30

All of my books are available on Amazon. And some of them are in Barnes and Noble. And I'll actually be in Brooklyn this week at the Bookmark Shop. They sell my book. And you could go to my website. It's Mariana-Randazzo.com. and you could order them right off of there, but mainly right through Amazon. That seems to be the easiest, quickest way to get a book these days, or through the publisher.

Ben 31:32-31:51

Absolutely. And that's Arcadia Publishing or History Press. So, well, this has been a joy. The book is brand new. It is hot off the press and it will leave your spine cold to the touch with all of its chilly ghost tales. And it is such a joy. Mariana, thank you so much for joining us. This has been a blast.

Marianna 31:51-31:53

Thank you, Ben. It's been terrific.