E5: It Starts With Us: Workplace Pt. 2

Speakers: Marlene Harris-Taylor, Leah Hudnall, Ramat Wiley & Angela Neal-Barnett

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

In January of 2020, Bloomberg CityLab published an article about a new study from Pittsburgh researchers naming the best and worst cities for black women.

Among cities with at least 100,000 black women, Cleveland came in dead last in terms of livability. In this city with a nearly 50% black population, this news drops like a bomb, and reactions were mixed.

[Music Playing]

Do you think Cleveland is really the worst for black women? And what do you say?

Female:

“I say …

Female:

“It depends on the person they ask. When I dropped it in one of my black girl group chats, the emojis were just eye rolls.”

Female:

“I'm not surprised. Not even a little.”

Female:

“It’ s heartbreaking and also embarrassing.”

Female:

“Is it like this everywhere? Is it me?”

Female:

“This city will make or break you.”

Female:

“City of black women that are looking around at their outcomes, their future, their past, and saying, this city makes me anxious.”

Female:

“If anybody's out there listening in Cleveland, please get out.”

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

On Living For We, we talk to Cleveland's black women from all walks of life, from the CEO of one of our major healthcare systems to self-starting entrepreneurs, judges, lawyers, doctors, artists, students, and mothers who've experienced loss.

We share stories from these women as change makers and architects of their own futures, celebrating their victories, challenges, and personal growth along the way.

So, is it really true what they say? Is Cleveland deserving of the least livable title? And what can we do to make lasting improvements for black women in our city?

I'm Marlene Harris-Taylor, and this is Living For We, a project of Connecting the Dots between Race and Health, from Ideastream Public Media.

We're sitting in front of the movie theater. Tell me the story of the significance of Shaker Square to your career.

Leah Hudnall:

So, when I got my first full-time job out of college, I was working as a development assistant for a arts nonprofit called Young Audiences. And their offices were above the movie theater, and that was my job.

I don't know which one of these windows was mine. But I had an office, so it was my first office. I was out of cubicle life, so I felt like I had graduated.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

You had made it; you were out of cubicle life.

This is lifelong Cleveland resident Leah Hudnall. She's taking us back to where she had one of her first professional jobs here in Cleveland. As we continue exploring black women's experiences in the workplace, in this episode of Living For We.

Leah's dream job was to work in philanthropy because she wanted to make a difference in people's lives. She had just landed an entry level role at this nonprofit about 10 years ago that she thought was going to be a positive start for her work journey.

Leah Hudnall:

I was a development assistant, but later on I found out that other members on the senior team were led to believe that I also supported them as well. And you know how you talk to your boss versus those who are just your colleagues.

So, I will say, “Okay, I'll get to it.” But that doesn't sound good from the lowest peg on the belt telling you she'll get to it. So, that situation came to a head with one of the employees at the nonprofit coming into my office. She closed the door, put her body over the doorknob, and started yelling and berating me verbally and told me a whole bunch of curse words and I need to do what I'm told, and she's tired of my attitude.

So, I stood up and tried to leave the room, and she doubled down on being over the doorknob. And I was like, “Please let me out. Please let me out.” I knew at that point that I could not respond in a way that I was taught, if someone closes you into a room, you knock them out. I couldn't do that. But I-

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

You were like let me be professional in this situation.

Leah Hudnall:

Because what was happening to me was not what people had prepared me for what professional life looks like.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Well, how were you feeling in that moment?

Leah Hudnall:

I felt humiliated. Everyone was staring at me and as I recall, I was sitting in my office. I don't know what I could have done that rose to the level of that type of response.

I remember the next day or two days later, that used to be a Dewey's coffee shop.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Where?

Leah Hudnall:

Across the square. So, they asked me to walk with them to have an intervention between me and this employee.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

The one who had just verbally abused you?

Leah Hudnall:

One that verbally abused me, plus the executive director and the development director. And we sat at a four-person table, and they allowed her to say things like shit or get off the pot, you tricked us in your interview. You're not who you've portrayed yourself to be.

And after that, it was announced to the staff that she was going on a sabbatical. It was never expressively said that that was wrong. We don't accept this behavior. She's being terminated or we're going to go back through training or anything. She was going on a sabbatical.

I'm in an abusive relationship with Cleveland's nonprofit and civic sector. I am, because I have been taught the game. It is not that people haven't said, “Well, if you do it like this, you might be …

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

You could play the game. You know how to play the game if you want to.

Leah Hudnall:

I don't want to. And I'm a very confident person. I always have been and very direct in my communication. I was never raised to cower to white folk. I had this like moment where I was like, you really want to do this work, but this work doesn't want you. Why do you keep chasing something that has clearly told you you're not welcome?

What a lot of people don't know about this nonprofit work in Cleveland is you have to sit in rooms where people continuously disrespect everything that you stand for. And the moment that you decide you want to speak out, you're combative, you're difficult, you're hard to work with, you're angry, you're emotional. This may not be the line of work for you.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Give us a peek into that world. What were the kind of things that people would say that you found just totally disrespectful and out of line from people who were supposed to be there to help other folks?

Leah Hudnall:

There was a community program that was rolled out, and at this point, I have a young son, one of the officers of the institution comes and says, “This is going to change your son's life.”

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

What kind of program was it?

Leah Hudnall:

It was, Say Yes Cleveland. So, my response to that was (I can't believe I said this), at this time, you cannot use Say Yes scholarships to go to Howard. And so, I don't know how it's going to change his life.

A lot of what this business is, and Cleveland is white saviorism and they want you to thank them. And I don't thank people for doing a job they get paid $200,000 to do.

So, maybe they adopt said person of color or they provide the scholarship or they build the school, or they send the water to Flint, or they create the nonprofit program that changes the life of your six-month old son, so-

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

And you weren't sufficiently grateful?

Leah Hudnall:

No, I never am.

[Music Playing]

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Cleveland is a strong foundation town.

Leah Hudnall:

Yes.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

I've heard that from so many people and I've experienced that. We're sitting here because of foundation money.

Leah Hudnall:

I have worked for them, they have paid my bills and-

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

And they do good stuff.

Leah Hudnall:

Yeah.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

That was big pause there. But anyway.

While Cleveland nonprofits and foundations may have paid her bills, that doesn't mean that they actually valued her voice or her insights, despite the fact that much of their work aims to serve people who look like Leah, her family, and the people from her old neighborhood.

Leah is very proud that she grew up in the Lee-Harvard neighborhood in a home built for her family. A rare feat for many black families back then.

Leah Hudnall:

You have a equity meeting today that you want me to attend. This is what I want to put forth. You keep wanting to abuse me for my experience and my identity. I want you to honor it today.

When you have to look in the face of the people that you had some control over, that's a very hard conversation to have.

There are so many very important people in Cleveland who do not catch the bus, who have never sent their children to Cleveland schools. Who don't shop in Cleveland, in the city of Cleveland, many of the people who work in Cleveland's nonprofit sector don't live in the city of Cleveland.

Most of the people that make decisions on what these people's lives will look like do not live in Cleveland and have no plans to move here.

The one foundation I worked for, we had a commitment to three majority black neighborhoods, but I was the only black program officer at the time.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

What?

Leah Hudnall:

Now what's wrong with this equation?

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

What's it like being the black woman in that situation where you've got a voice, a little bit of a voice?

Leah Hudnall:

And I turned the dial up.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Did you? And what happened when you turned dial up?

Leah Hudnall:

I don't work there anymore.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

I see a pattern here.

Leah Hudnall:

Well, trust me, if you wanted to find the anti-Leah club, you need a larger room.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

So, what does that do to you when you have to do this delicate dance to be able to look yourself in the face? What does that do to you over the years in terms of your health and your wellness and your mental health and your physical health?

Leah Hudnall:

You fight to stay healthy to fight, if that makes sense. I don't want everything to be a fight. I want to be in rooms where I feel seen in value. I'm fighting for the power of community because I know it saves lives, because it saved my life when I've been fired from jobs and thought I was never going to get over the humiliation. I'll never be able to walk outside again.

Or you see someone that harmed you in the workplace, be named as the leader of the year. And all of these different things that are just not my story. These are stories of all of us, black, white, whatever in this work.

There's a culture of silence in Cleveland civic sector where the way I put it is like the, you'll never work here vibes are very real in Cleveland. You can get blacklisted. It is a thing. People that are in power try to act like they don't know. But it's a thing.

What I have tried to do is figure out whether I want to be at the dance. If I'm going to be at the dance, what dance am I doing? And who am I dancing with and who's all going to be there and when am I leaving?

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Since her time at that first nonprofit, Leah has worked in many other similar spaces, but she found it was more of the same. And that led her to start her own nonprofit, The Legacy Perspective.

When asked about the study that ranked Cleveland, the least livable city for black women in America, Leah said she was thrilled to finally have data to affirm her experiences.

Leah Hudnall:

No one believes you until someone from outside of Cleveland affirms what you already know. And we had data that no one is going to debate.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

It wasn't a surprise.

Leah Hudnall:

To me, no, it wasn't a surprise.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Because you were living it.

Leah Hudnall:

Yes. And my mother had lived it and her sisters had lived it. My grandmother lived it and my great-grandmother lived it.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

That Cleveland people discover it, that landed like a bomb.

Leah Hudnall:

For some.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Okay. Too much. That's too much, not a bomb.

Leah Hudnall:

It landed like the fairy in my front yard when I got it in my group chat. So, it was like ping, ping, ping, ping.

[Music Playing]

Ramat Wiley:

The biggest challenge for me was burgers, because there's so many layers to a burger. So, you …

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

This is our next guest, Cleveland resident Ramat Wiley, who's sharing with me what it's like working as a food artist. The people who make food look so good and tantalizing in magazines and commercials.

Ramat Wiley:

You got to dry your meat.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

You got to dry it off.

Ramat Wiley:

You got to dry it off.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

But still keep it glistening.

Ramat Wiley:

Keep it glistening. Lots of mashed potatoes in the background, on the back of the burger to make sure that everything stays in place.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

So, the mashed potatoes hold the burger up, but they're like invisible sort of?

Ramat Wiley:

So, we split the burger in half in the back to open it and make it look as big or even bigger than the bun. And we stuff mashed potatoes in the middle.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

In the middle.

Ramat is a woman of many talents. She's always on a quest to find her dream job. And she is not afraid to reinvent herself.

But she's had some bumps and bruises along the way. Her journey into the world of food began after years of working as a 911 operator in East Cleveland and Cleveland Heights, where she led a movement to unionize the women she worked with. She ultimately succeeded and a union was created, but she was understandably burn out and ready to make a change.

But at some point you got tired.

Ramat Wiley:

I got tired.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

And you like, look-

Ramat Wiley:

My husband said I got mean. He's like, “So, you ready to go back to school because you getting mean.” And I was like, “Oh, I don't want to be mean.”

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Were you taking that out on the hubby?

Ramat Wiley:

At the time he was my boyfriend and it was like-

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

And he still wanted to be your husband?

Ramat Wiley:

He still wanted to be my husband, apparently.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

You got a good one.

Ramat decided it was time to go back to culinary school to pursue her lifelong interest in becoming a chef. But when that started to disappoint her as well, she found a more specific passion in the culinary world.

Ramat Wiley:

So, I was on the line as a pantry cook and also doing assisting as a food stylist part-time.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

So, were you working in the kitchen to pay the bills, but the food styling, was it becoming your passion?

Ramat Wiley:

It was becoming my-

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Because went to school to become a chef.

Ramat Wiley:

Yeah.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

So, you started changing your mindset.

Ramat Wiley:

I started changing my mindset on the line.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

How did that happen?

Ramat Wiley:

There was a lot more discovery in food styling than there was working in a hot kitchen full of men who don't care how clean you keep your station. They're going to mess it up anyway.

So, I could be as particular about things that I wanted to as a food stylist. It got me more work on the line though, because I was asked by banquets all the time to plate all of their salads before I left. Why is there more work being put on me? Because you do it, you do it so well.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Right. Here you were, you had left your job to go to school to become a chef and then you find yourself in the kitchen.

Ramat Wiley:

It was not different from culinary school itself. The kitchen is definitely a boys’ club. I was the only woman on the line. So, I would also be given more work there. I'd have to prep everything from my station and then plate desserts. I'm running from one end of the kitchen to the other.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

So, how are you treated in the boys’ club?

Ramat Wiley:

They tried me then they knew when I was there that I demanded my respect.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

What do you mean they tried you?

Ramat Wiley:

They would mess up my stuff on purpose, putting a French fry in my freshly cut radishes.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Do you think they would've treated a guy like that fresh out of school?

Ramat Wiley:

No.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

On the side though, food styling was still an outlet that was giving her creative freedom.

Ramat Wiley:

It was making me see things that I've never seen before. I was like, this is cool. If I can travel for work and I can dine in the best restaurants and we'll take clients out to dinner and I can curate the entire dinner. This is really cool. This is nice.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

It was opening up a whole new world for you.

Ramat Wiley:

A whole new world. But I was the only one that looked like me in it. Once I left the kitchen, I would work 12 hour days, do it over and over and over again. I'm like, “Okay, I really like this. This is really cool. The money's great.” I'm making money I've never seen before as well, but it got kind of daunting when I saw other people being put on a pedestal.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

So, you were still an assistant at this point?

Ramat Wiley:

I was still an assistant at that point.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

But it sounds like you were loving it. You were-

Ramat Wiley:

I was loving it.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

You were traveling. Passion. You found your passion.

Ramat Wiley:

I found my passion.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

So the 12 hours, probably didn't feel like 12 hours.

Ramat Wiley:

It didn’t.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

At the same time, she was trying to ascend the ladder at her job, she noticed folks around her moving up while she stayed in place.

So, what was the difference between what you saw other people doing and what you were doing?

Ramat Wiley:

They were given chances to style on other sets. Also have different opportunities than I had.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

And why do you think that was?

Ramat Wiley:

I'll say it is because I'm black. I wasn't the thin, beautiful white girl who can style, but she also is just gorgeous. I wasn't relatable.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Did you say anything?

Ramat Wiley:

No, I didn't want to mess up what I had going. I started questioning myself. Maybe it's just because I just graduated. Maybe that's why I'm not a part of this. Or maybe I haven't been here long enough.

I had so many different excuses that I was giving in my head.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

And that's what happens. And so, you saw these people who you felt were your equals, they weren't below you or anything.

Ramat Wiley:

Mm-hmm (negative).

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

It was like, why am I not in that group?

Ramat Wiley:

Yeah.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Maybe I'm not good enough.

Ramat Wiley:

Maybe I'm not good enough. But are you coming to this client dinner? Okay, we need you to go ahead and pick out the menu.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Ramat was relied on to provide great work and she did just that. But when she wasn't being included in important meetings and career advancing projects, she felt that she was being taken advantage of and she was not standing forward anymore.

You said, I'm out.

Ramat Wiley:

I'm out. I'm going to go do a few more freelance gigs and I'm out.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Did you have a plan?

Ramat Wiley:

No, because I didn't know the pandemic was coming. I thought I would just continue to work as a freelance food stylist until I figure out what I want to do next.

And then the pandemic hit and I was like, well, and so I was sitting at home and reading and crying and meditating and trying to figure out what was next. And I was just like, “What would you do if you can do the biggest thing you wanted to do?” And I was like, “Huh.”

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

What is that?”

Ramat Wiley:

I was like, “I've always loved spices.” Whenever I travel for work and when we traveled for our honeymoon to France, it was spices and finding out different cuisines and was like, “Huh.”

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

That chef in you came back.

Ramat Wiley:

And I was like, I would open a spice shop, but I don't know how to do all of that. And I was like, well it seems like I got space and opportunity at this point, so I'll figure it out. I had also come across a space.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Where was the space?

Ramat Wiley:

Van Aken Market Hall.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Wow. That was pretty audacious.

Ramat Wiley:

Yeah.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

What gave you the courage to do that? That's pretty cool.

Ramat Wiley:

It's funny because that was actually the word of the year with my church was audacious. We would say we're going to pray audacious prayers, we're going to do audacious work. And I didn't think anything of it at the time. I was just doing what I felt I needed to do.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

But that was sinking into your spirit and your pastor, well, he declared it the year thinking audaciously.

Ramat Wiley:

She, yes.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

She, she. Okay.

Ramat Wiley:

Yes.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Alright, she. Let's get that straight. She declared, this is the year of thinking big.

Ramat Wiley:

“So, welcome to Adun Spice Shop. We're going to start over here in our blend section. So, on the blend wall we have a few of our very signature blends. The favorites are the citrus, garlic, our Maple Cajun.”

Our mission is to source quality spices, fair trade from single source farms, organic, organically farm. And we also give back to the community. We give monetary donations to people who are feeding people in Cleveland. I call it doing the work.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

How did you finance it?

Ramat Wiley:

My husband gave me $300.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

$300.

Ramat Wiley:

$300 is what I started doing spice-

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Yeah, $300 and dream.

Ramat Wiley:

But no. Once it grew to what it is now, KeyBank, I had a whole national commercial with KeyBank.

Female:

“Like Ramat, a chef in creative entrepreneur who didn't let a pandemic stop her from starting a Adun Spice Co, where she curates spices inspired by her heritage.”

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Ramat’s big break with KeyBank was partially arranged by a friend of hers, another black woman.

Ramat Wiley:

It's my duty to make sure that I provide that information for other black women who want to do the same thing, who want to start their businesses, I want to make sure that they have the same knowledge of what's available to them. Because there are other black women who want to make sure that small businesses are funded in Cleveland.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

How did you get here? How did that journey happen to get you to this wonderful place that you are now?

Ramat Wiley:

I think it was sitting at home during that time, at the beginning of the pandemic. I also think it was going to therapy. If I'm not supposed to be doing this, I would not be affirmed by myself and so many others. That's what keeps me motivated and going.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Because so many black women stay in spaces where they're not being affirmed out of fear.

Ramat Wiley:

Fear, big fear. What's going to happen if I leave? Am I enough? I meet a lot of women who want to start their own businesses and are terrified of what will happen next. And they're like, “How did you?”. I'm like, “I have no idea.” I had to step out on faith. I had to, it was either this or what? Go back to doing something for somebody else.

There's a reason why I've gone through so much. I have to be triumphant on the other side of that. And I think that's what really, really drives me.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

One of the things we are striving to do through the work of many organizations like Project Noir, is for black women to find solutions for black women.

Ramat Wiley:

Yes. And we have to support one another. It can't be, oh, I see her doing that over there. And I don't want to support her because I don't like her. I want to see us work together more.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

So, maybe the answer for making Cleveland a more livable city for black women is for us to see each other.

Ramat Wiley:

Yes. There is a way that we can all work together and utilize our individual skills collectively.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

So, the answer is us.

Ramat Wiley:

Us, we all work together.

[Music Playing]

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

We've been exploring what the workplace is like for black women. In part one, we spoke to three women who broke barriers in Cleveland. And in this episode we spoke to two younger women who are carving out their own paths to success despite it all.

Now we're bringing back our expert to talk about how we can all cope with a sometimes rocky world of work for black women.

So Dr. Angela Neal-Barnett, welcome back to Living For We.

Angela Neal-Barnett:

I’m glad to be here, Marlene.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

So, we're talking about the workplace now, the last episode and this episode. And we hear some common themes from the women about the issues that they face and the struggles in the workplace. So, what that tells us is that there are a lot of black women in Cleveland dealing with these same issues.

You're saying that black women should think about being in therapy.

Angela Neal-Barnett:

I think therapy is very helpful. It's someone to say this, this, this is happening to me. And it's a way to build action plans for yourself. It's also a way to give yourself grace. And the kind of grace that Aretha sings about. It's an amazing grace. And to learn how to recognize that and then deal with it is always a good thing.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

And just to have somebody to say what you think you're experiencing is real.

Angela Neal-Barnett:

Is real.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

It's true.

Angela Neal-Barnett:

It is true. It's happening. It's not a figment of your imagination. You're not delusional. You're not paranoid.

Black women are always told when they're inappropriate, they're angry, they're aggressive, they're scaring people. And when white women do it, not a peep. Even Leah's case is a prime example of that.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

And who was aggressive and scary in that situation. She was not too long out of college. She's fresh, she's idealistic, and she comes into this workplace and faces this trauma and she's like, “Oh, my God.”

When you're older like me and you've weathered some storms, you find some coping strategies. But when you're young like that you face this reality for the first time.

Angela Neal-Barnett:

It can make or break you. That's where I think women like us our age, are so important. When we are functioning as mentors, what we want to teach these women is that we are here to protect your spirit. Even if you have this really bad experience, this failure experience, again, you know you can rise.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

In our last episode, we spoke to three dynamic black women at the top of their game and deep into their careers. Ramona Robinson, news anchor and author.

Ramona Robinson:

“When I want something, I never give up. I always believe in a better day.”

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Ariane Kirkpatrick, CEO of the AKA Team and Harvest of Ohio.

Ariane Kirkpatrick:

“I just want to be a part of the team that makes a difference here. Oh, it's the worst place to live. Well, let's change that.”

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

And Cleveland Housing Court Judge Mona Scott.

Mona Scott:

“I just remember saying, I want to be somebody that determines fairness. That's the only way I could express it.”

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Dr. Angela had thoughts to share on their experiences as well.

Angela Neal-Barnett:

What we have to remember as black women is that when we are good at our jobs, there's a whole bunch of white men and white women that we are making angry. And if we know that going in, that kind of helps us.

Last time we talked, you talked about your theme song being Ain't Going to Let Nobody Turn Me Around. And all the women that we've talked to are women who said, “The micro aggressions almost became too much for me to bear. But I knew I was living my purpose and I had come too far to turn around now.”

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

We definitely heard that in Ramona's story and I loved how she talked about don't settle. Don't just sit there in a job for 10 years where you're being treated bad and think, well, it's probably not any better anyplace else.

Angela Neal-Barnett:

Sometimes we do that because remember, this is the worst city for black women, right?

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Mm-Hmm (affirmative).

Angela Neal-Barnett:

If that's what the data says, where are we going to get better? Or if we are the primary breadwinner, it's on us to keep the roof over our baby heads. Do we stay?

But what the research says is that if you are a woman and you are in that kind of job, it's worse. It creates more stress for you. It creates more stress for your babies. Our children do better when we are working at a job that we love and that allows us to thrive.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

So, nobody's saying go out and quit without another job.

Angela Neal-Barnett:

No.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

But don't settle.

Angela Neal-Barnett:

Don't settle. And that's why many of us are entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurship is actually born out of, for many of us, micro aggressions and racism.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

That's an interesting point. So, we just decide, I'm just going to go out and do my own thing.

Angela Neal-Barnett:

Do your own thing, do your own thing.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

But even when you do that, as we found an Ariane’s case that she started this business, it's thriving. She is really at the top of her game. She's getting all kind of accolades from people in the business world. But then there's that other side.

Angela Neal-Barnett:

The jealousy.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

The jealousy.

Angela Neal-Barnett:

And the jealousy comes from both within the race and from outside of the race.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

One of the devastating sides of Ariane’s story despite her wonderful success, it's really impacted her health.

Angela Neal-Barnett:

Yes, stress impacts her health. And black women face more stressors than just about anyone else in this country. The old saying is, black don't crack. And so, when you look at black women on the outside, they look fine.

But when you look on the inside, all of these factors create what's called weathering. So, while black don't crack on the outside, on the inside, we are aging faster, quicker than anyone else.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

And we also feature many women in these episodes who are breaking barriers.

Angela Neal-Barnett:

Yes.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

There's always this little extra scrutiny. Black women, when they break these barriers, I even think on the national level, like our vice president, Kamala Harris and Michelle Obama when she was First Lady, when black women go into these spaces, it's rough.

Angela Neal-Barnett:

It’s incredibly rough. Several of the women talk about having therapists just to deal with how rough it is. Being a black woman, first of all, is not for the faint of heart to begin with. And then to break barriers just makes it even more difficult. And the ability to remain hopeful, that allows us to rise, to soar.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

One of the things I love about Ramat's story is how she is just so persistent in pursuing her dream.

Angela Neal-Barnett:

Yes. And she has support. She talks about her husband. She talks about her therapist. That support and the wisdom of the ancestors and what happened in her life propels her towards her dreams. And to those higher levels.

They're the ones who say, “Come on baby, you can do this. This is what you've always wanted.” And we all need an Amen corner or a cheering section somewhere in the background willing us forward.

[Music Playing]

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

In our next episode, we start the conversation about black women in Cleveland's medical system. The good, the bad, and the ugly.

Female:

“There was another woman having major migraines, another woman of color screaming at the top of her lungs, and I'm bleeding out and neither one of us are being attended to.”

Female:

“Why me? Like, why my baby?”

Female:

“When black women walk into a healthcare provider's office, they're not walking in there with dollar signs across their forehead. They're a black female walking in a door.”

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

We've been enjoying listening to your voicemails about your experiences as black women in Cleveland. We have another message this week from one of our listeners.

Female:

“Born and raised here. Lived here my whole life. It sucks. The healthcare sucks. I'll say if you can find a black female doctor, then the healthcare is not so bad usually.

But yeah, it's pretty bad. Especially if you need any kind of mental healthcare.

Education, decent. But good luck getting a job that will pay you a livable wage. And if you do get one that pays your livable wage, good luck being treated like a human once you get there.

I feel like we've been failed, not just by our government, but just by literally anyone who's in charge of anything around here. Good luck trying to date. Good luck trying to exist as someone who's not a white person.

I've fought to make a good life for myself. I think I'm doing okay, but it's not because of anyone else. So yeah, 0 out of 10. Wouldn't recommend.”

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

If you want to leave us a message, our number is 2162-238-312. That's 2162-238-312. You may just hear yourself on the podcast. We look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks for joining us. You can find more episodes of Living For We on ideastream.org/livingforwe and wherever you get your podcast.

This past week, we celebrated being included in Apple Podcasts, new and noteworthy section. Thank you for helping us get there by leaving us such great reviews and for sharing the show.

Living For We is part of the Connecting the Dots between Race and Health initiative from Ideastream Public Media. Produced by Evergreen Podcasts and made possible by generous support from the Dr. Donald J. Goodman and Ruth Weber Goodman Philanthropic Fund of the Cleveland Foundation.

The Living For We Team includes myself, Marlene Harris-Taylor host and executive producer, Hannah Rae Leach as our lead producer. And Hey Fran Hey, as producer and creative director. ChiChi on camera and Bethany Studenic of Enlightened Solutions are our researchers, data analysts, and community partners.

We get production help from Stephanie Czekalinski, original music, including our theme song is by Cleveland artist, Afi Scruggs. Our mix engineer is Sean Rule-Hoffman. We'll see you soon.

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