Leaders as Humble as They are Successful

Refreshingly candid conversations with some of today's most humble leaders. Adam Kaufman dives into topics often left unexplored. His guests’ challenges, fears, and motivations show what it takes to become a humble leader.

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Baker Mayfield: Humble Over Hype

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Baker Mayfield: Humble Over Hype

In this episode of Up2, Adam sits down with Heisman Trophy-winner and Cleveland Browns quarterback, Baker Mayfield. The former #1 draft pick reflects authentically on family; on goal-setting; and on handling the pressures of life in the NFL. Special appearances by his wife, Emily Mayfield, and entrepreneur Bobby George, make this a rare conversation you won't want to miss.


TownHall (CLE, OH)

Dave Douglas: Hi, welcome to another episode of Up2. Eight years ago, Up2 started as a live event series, showcasing leaders who are as humble as they are successful. The humility piece is extremely important as we identify leaders who can inspire others. We try to focus our interviews on the non-business aspects of their lives, and in doing so, have found there is a real thirst to explore their hearts and minds in atypical ways. We have another unique episode for you today. We're recording on location at the restaurant TownHall, one of our show's sponsors. We're here for an event centered around giving back to the community. TownHall's teamed up with the NFL football team, the Cleveland Browns, and they're here serving meals to those in need. We'll hear from the quarterback of the Cleveland Browns, Baker Mayfield and his wife Emily Mayfield, about their expectations of Cleveland before arriving and if the city has surprised them in any way.

Dave Douglas: We'll talk about their families, and we'll even hear a little bit about how they met, and Baker will tell us which football player he looked up to and wanted to be as a kid. We're also going to hear from town hall owner Bobby George. He'll talk about his sense of responsibility to help others and how that has led to the event that we're attending today. Both Baker and Bobby will tell us about their views on leadership and dealing with the pressures that come along with it. You're listening to the Up2 podcast. We'll be right back.

Adam Kaufman: Hello, my name is Adam Kaufman and I'm thankful you're joining us today on the Up2 podcast. I want to tell you about a group that I'm grateful for and that is TownHall, Cleveland's most popular restaurant, and one that I can say is the only place my wife tells me she can eat every meal, breakfast, lunch, and dinner. TownHall was the first all non-GMO restaurant in the U.S. a few years ago and they're now expanding into Columbus, Ohio soon. I'm also very selective about who we choose to partner with for this podcast and it was with open arms that I embraced the idea of partnering with Bobby George and TownHall. To learn more about what they're up to, you can visit townhallohiocity.com

Dave Douglas: Welcome back to the Up2 podcast. Let's listen in as our host Adam Kaufman starts the conversation sitting down with the owner of TownHall, Bobby George, and the quarterback for the Cleveland Browns, Baker Mayfield.

Adam Kaufman: We are so excited to be here at TownHall for Feed the Need, your biggest event of the year, and we have a special guest today that we'll introduce in a moment. But first, I wanted to thank you, and it's a time of year when we're all giving thanks, so we're especially grateful to have Cleveland's probably most public figure with us today, Baker Mayfield, thank you for being with us.

Baker Mayfield: Appreciate you having me.

Adam Kaufman: You're still somewhat new to Cleveland, what are the biggest surprises, positive or negative about being here? Do you have any impressions ahead of time or expectations?

Baker Mayfield: So I have a buddy that I played in college with, his name is Joe Palange, he grew up here, went to St. Edwards.

Adam Kaufman: I have two kids at St. Ed's.

Baker Mayfield: Yeah. So he kind of gave me the rundown of Cleveland and the football town that it really is, and I'd be lying if I said I truly believed everything he said about Cleveland.

Baker Mayfield: You know, as good of a town as it is, a sports town, everybody's involved, and if you're from here and you live here, you take pride in it. And so, it makes you feel right at home.

Adam Kaufman: People are welcoming you.

Baker Mayfield: Absolutely.

Adam Kaufman: Awesome. And I got to know your lovely wife, Emily, a little bit. She said she's made some friends too, and it's a very authentic town. So that was good to hear.

Baker Mayfield: No, it's great. And she's from Omaha, so that Midwest feel of the family culture and aspect of it, it's been nice to have.

Adam Kaufman: Similar ethos in Nebraska and Cleveland probably.

Baker Mayfield: Yes it is. I think.

Adam Kaufman: Well, you mentioned family, talk about your family for a little bit, like what type of family were you born into? I like learning about people's upbringing a little bit.

Baker Mayfield: Very close family. Just one older brother. My parents were planning on having more, but they said I was a number two, three and four. We were always getting handled. I was a bad baby. A good kid though. Good kid. But we were, we were very close. Grew up in the same house until I was 17, we were very routine oriented, goal-oriented, they pushed us to do everything we possibly could. They're still working now and they've just always led the way and paved the way, by example a lot of the time and just being there for us, challenging us in every way.

Adam Kaufman: Will you be able to see them or any family during Thanksgiving?

Baker Mayfield: No, we're going to have them come up a little bit earlier for Christmas.

Adam Kaufman: Oh, that'll be nice.

Baker Mayfield: Having the home game with the Ravens that late in the year and having them come up earlier in that week, but just giving thanks from afar.

Adam Kaufman: We'll you have a lot to be grateful for.

Baker Mayfield: Exactly.

Adam Kaufman: Speaking of that, how did you meet this character, Bobby George, Cleveland's biggest risk-taking successful entrepreneur. How did you get connected with Bobby?

Baker Mayfield: Through recommendations, asking people where to go eat, different places to go explore, and then as soon as we came to TownHall, welcomed us in with open arms. Just showed us the ropes and has treated us with nothing but respect and anybody that comes in for games he always takes care of. So I mean, we're very thankful for that.

Adam Kaufman: That's awesome.

Bobby George: Yeah. He came in like a regular customer one day when the Indians were in the playoffs and-

Adam Kaufman: Just showed up.

Bobby George: We had a wait and he left. He didn't say, "I'm Baker Mayfield". One of my employees recognize him. Said "I think someone just denied Baker Mayfield a table" I'm having. My manager ran out and grabbed him and just said, "Hey, if you ever need anything", and then he came back and that's how we met.

Adam Kaufman: Well, I've loved, Bobby, how you have integrated your fondness for sports into your business, whether it's having folks like Baker dine here or otherwise. How did you come up with the idea for feed the need? This is, I think the seventh year of a real successful event, but how did you come up with this idea?

Bobby George: Well, I've always believed in the biblical principle to whom much is given, much is expected.

Adam Kaufman: Amen.

Bobby George: And I've been super blessed. Everything I've done has been successful and I said, "I got to utilize my resources to do something great". My resources that are my financial resources in my relationships with leaders and guys of influence like Baker. And I said, if I can unite them to serve, we can draw more awareness for St. Augustine's who does this 364 days a year outside of today. Sister Creed, who is 85, serves three meals a day to anyone and everyone that shows up.

Adam Kaufman: And you're going to serve 4,000 today?

Bobby George: We're going to serve 4,000, but that's great and it's important, but what's more important is that she does every other day of the year. She's a modern day Mother Teresa. She's 85 years old, she's down there on her feet, she won't sit down all day.

Adam Kaufman: It's really inspiring. Baker, I had Bobby on a separate episode of the podcast and it's still the most downloaded episode. Folks are really interested in what he has to say. I think he's a bit of a role model. Do you ever think about who you're role modeling for? I mean your work is a very public work.

Baker Mayfield: Yes.

Adam Kaufman: Do you ever think about who you're role modeling for?

Baker Mayfield: I do, often at that, just for kids, I remember, you know me growing up and looking up to certain athletes and role models of, who they are-

Adam Kaufman: Who did you want to be? We all used to pretend we were somebody on the playing field, who were you?

Baker Mayfield: Brett Favre.

Adam Kaufman: You were Brett Favre?

Baker Mayfield: Yeah. Running around-

Adam Kaufman: The Gunslinger.

Baker Mayfield: Having fun, loving the game and just, he was always himself on the field. He has his flaws and he knows that, but, he wasn't ashamed of it. He is who he is and he was proud of that, and so, that's how my parents raised me. Even so I just, I know I've made mistakes and I know certain things I do, or I wouldn't condone.

Adam Kaufman: We've all made mistakes.

Baker Mayfield: But you live and you learn from it. And I think it's always, whether it's adversity, it's mistakes. How do you learn from it? How do you grow from it? And so that's, that's who I try and be.

Adam Kaufman: Have you been able to meet Brett and have you told him that you wanted to be him when you were little?

Baker Mayfield: I haven't had the chance of actually meeting him in person, but I've talked to him over the phone.

Adam Kaufman: Bobby, can you arrange that? Can you just get them together please?

Bobby George: If he wants it done, I'll get it.

Adam Kaufman: I know you could, by dinner tonight.

Baker Mayfield: Exactly. He probably could handle that.

Adam Kaufman: Yeah. Well I'm sure he would love to hear that, but I think it's a funny way to talk about it. But you are role modeling for a lot of people and I think all of us in work, I interview a lot of business people usually and they are less public figures but they have pressure from employees or from investors. How do you cope with pressure in life? Like do you try to avoid it or do you just deal with it a certain way? I always like to know how do successful people deal with pressure.

Baker Mayfield: I embrace my role. I wouldn't necessarily say that there's pressure when it comes down to it. I think there's a lot within my job every day, day to day life that I have to do and I have to be responsible for and accountable. And I wouldn't say that's pressure, it just comes with the territory and I have to do my job, I have to have a singular focus of the task at hand, and doing the work, being on time, being very detailed, making sure everybody's on the same page, communicating well. But then also, having a big picture mindset at the same time, being able to put it all in perspective to make sure you're always headed in the right direction.

Adam Kaufman: So there's some leadership coming out of there too. It's not just dealing for pressure, you look at yourself as a bit of a leader. There's some responsibility that comes with being a leader.

Baker Mayfield: Absolutely. Especially in my role being a quarterback of an NFL football team.

Adam Kaufman: Bobby, you're also a leader. I mean, how do you think about leadership and do you have to compartmentalize pressure from employees or competitors or how do you think about that part of being a leader?

Bobby George: I don't know. I've always operated out of fear. I'm always scared that what my competitors are doing and I want to stay ahead.

Adam Kaufman: Only the paranoid survive as a [inaudible 00:09:15].

Bobby George: There's a saying I live by. If the rate of change on the outside is greater than the rate of change on the inside, the end is near. So anyone that knows me knows I'm pretty anxious and always concerned and always about my business. But I also, we do in our organization, servant leadership is what we live by-

Adam Kaufman: Absolutely.

Bobby George: And what we've reached so.

Adam Kaufman: And that's obvious in the employees of yours I've met, they love serving.

Bobby George: And I feel like if your employees love you and you love them, when things do go bad, they'll stick with you and you'll figure it out.

Adam Kaufman: You both lead teams, different types of teams. And I sometimes say, boy, it's such a curse, everything I get involved in I seem to lead, but someone corrected me once, it's actually a blessing to be a leader. Is that how you think about it? I see you nodding.

Baker Mayfield: No, I truly believe that. And it's a blessing to be in the position I'm in. To have people that look up to you, however you look at it, it could be a lot on your plate, it could be the added pressure, but if you really think about it, I've been so blessed and fortunate to be in this position. So, having eyes look at me and trying to be a role model for people, is something I'll never take for granted.

Dave Douglas: You're listening to the up to podcast. We'll be right back.

Adam Kaufman: One of the aspects of podcasting I enjoy the most is the ability to delve into long form discussions without any interruption other than a periodic commentary about one of our partners. I'm grateful that Calfee, Ohio based law firm, has agreed to partner with us. They have offices throughout Ohio and also in Washington D.C., in New York, and Indianapolis too. They are a full service firm, every type of legal need. One example I'll share right now because so many of our listeners are entrepreneurs is not too long ago, a friend of mine sold his company to a public corporation and with that came some restrictions and ramifications on his future employment and to navigate through that properly, he asked my advice, and without hesitation I recommended Calfee because I knew they'd have the right type of specialist to help him with his particular needs and my friend continues to rave about that experience and I'm very grateful that Calfee has agreed to partner with Up2.

Adam Kaufman: So whether it's selling your own business or the more routine needs of creating your first will or anything in between, this firm can really do it all in terms of legal needs. Once again, the firm is Calfee, you can find them at C-A-L-F-E-E dot com, or on the Up2 foundation website.

Adam Kaufman: During the first season of the Up2 podcast, I had several companies and entrepreneurs approached me about potential partnerships, but I'm really selective before choosing to do something like that. One choice we did make happily is to partner with VividFront, a full service digital marketing and website design agency based in Cleveland, that works with both local and national brands. They've built their entire client base on referrals and they've won a lot of awards, including the 2019 Inc. Magazine, top 5,000 fastest growing companies, North Coast top places to work, and several others. They're known for their talent, they're known for their creativity, they're known for their culture. A firm I liked before we agreed to partner together for this show. Check out vividfront.com or you can email me and I'll introduce you to their dynamic leader, Andrew Spott.

Dave Douglas: Welcome back to the Up2 podcast with Adam Kaufman, guests, Baker Mayfield, Emily Mayfield, and Bobby George.

Adam Kaufman: One question that I ask every one of our guests is if you could go back and talk to the 21 year old version of yourself, what advice would you give? But that doesn't really apply here because that's only a couple of years ago for you.

Baker Mayfield: That's what I was just going to say, only three years ago.

Bobby George: You got to give him credit for his leadership at this age.

Adam Kaufman: That's true. You forget the youth when you are so poised and mature sitting here, but maybe let's go back a little bit further. What advice would you give maybe the 16 year old, younger self, the younger Baker Mayfield?

Baker Mayfield: I think, there were certain things that I handled emotionally just right off the bat instead of taking a second to really think about it. I'm taking a deep breath, compartmentalizing, and then trying to react in the way that I'd be proud of.

Baker Mayfield: So I think there's always moments that you can act instinctively and just, it's harsh and in the moment, but just taking a second, take a deep breath and trying to handle it the best way you can.

Adam Kaufman: I always try to say that to myself. Everything we do, we do better relaxed. So if you could just take a breath before you respond to a text or, I mean, in your day job, you don't have a lot of time sometimes to react, but everything, if we had the time, we probably do better relaxed, right?

Baker Mayfield: Exactly.

Bobby George: Yeah. But not too relaxed. The one thing,

Adam Kaufman: You're never relaxed. I want you to relax a little more.

Bobby George: But the one thing,

Adam Kaufman: Right Baker? He's intense.

Baker Mayfield: He's a little intense.

Bobby George: But what I want to say about Baker that's, he's authentic and I think the reason he has so much passion, he's got so much love and that's why the city loves him. That's why he fits in Cleveland.

Adam Kaufman: Yeah, the city does love you. Even beyond statistics, they seem to really, I don't know if it's the commercials that you've done as well as the on field.

Baker Mayfield: That's probably Emily in that, that they really love.

Adam Kaufman: Well I've really enjoyed talking to Emily before you arrived, so I'm grateful to have that time with her. One of the things I was going to ask, speaking of your wife, is we have Thanksgiving upon us and we have a lot of chores at my house right now, getting ready for Thanksgiving and my big task tomorrow, I need to be away from my wife and get out of her hair. That's my biggest assignment. So do you have any assignments like getting ready for Thanksgiving or any chores that you really look forward to doing?

Baker Mayfield: I got to look at the game plan. I got to see what,

Adam Kaufman: Talk to the boss?

Baker Mayfield: I have to do. Yeah. I got to see what she has planned out for me and just not ask any questions after that.

Adam Kaufman: Just yes ma'am. Right?

Baker Mayfield: Yes, yes. At that point.

Adam Kaufman: You're young, but you've probably learned a happy wife, happy life, correct?

Baker Mayfield: It's a great saying.

Adam Kaufman: Yeah. Well there's two of us here at this table who are married, so one more to go maybe in a few years.

Bobby George: No pressure.

Adam Kaufman: No pressure at all, but I know you do have some pressure with time today so I don't want to spend too much of it, even though I'd like to spend more time with you, but we're just so grateful that you gave us a little bit of your time today, Baker, to Bobby as well. Congratulations on the successful event. If you allow me to, I'm going to bring Mrs. Mayfield on for a minute or two if that's okay.

Baker Mayfield: Of course.

Adam Kaufman: And get the power couple of Cleveland on Up2 for a few moments. [inaudible 00:15:54] Now, it's a real VIP session.

Emily Mayfield: [inaudible 00:15:57].

Baker Mayfield: Trash is on Mondays.

Adam Kaufman: Trashes on Mondays. At least he knows his assignments. So we now have Emily with us from Nebraska and I loved hearing that. You found some similarities between Cleveland and where you're from an Omaha.

Emily Mayfield: Yep, I did, the people are very similar.

Adam Kaufman: Tell me what you've been up to lately. I saw a little bit on TV about you, enough about your husband, but I know you're developing your own personality on air.

Emily Mayfield: I'm trying. Yeah. Recently I became a correspondent with WKYC, so just trying to steal the spotlight from Bake.

Adam Kaufman: Are you succeeding in that goal?

Emily Mayfield: I've got a long ways to go.

Baker Mayfield: She is.

Emily Mayfield: I'm trying.

Baker Mayfield: She started out and she said it was to challenge herself, but I wasn't so sure about that because she seems so natural when she goes out there. I said it wasn't as much of a challenge and if it was for her then she handles it well. So I'm proud of her.

Emily Mayfield: Thanks babe.

Adam Kaufman: Well, what have you found about Cleveland that has been either the most surprising or different than you expected in terms of moving here? I know you were in the Midwest, but you also were in LA after that. So what has Northeast Ohio been for you so far?

Emily Mayfield: I think the biggest surprise is there's so much more to do here than we expected. We actually used to joke, Oh, what if he gets drafted to Cleveland? What are we going to do in Cleveland? And there's so much more to do than we thought. The restaurants are great.

Adam Kaufman: It's a great food town.

Baker Mayfield: Food is unreal.

Adam Kaufman: Tough on the waistline, but it's great.

Emily Mayfield: Unless you're at TownHall.

Adam Kaufman: Oh that's right.

Baker Mayfield: This is also true.

Adam Kaufman: Well, I was planning on bringing that up, actually on a serious note, like how important is nutrition to the both of you? Is that something you talk about much? I know in your generation it's much more than in my generation, front of mind. So do you guys think about nutrition that much?

Baker Mayfield: We do. I wouldn't say that we're extremely strict on it, but we recently hired a chef, with how busy she's been with the extra jobs on the side and she's doing, have somebody to take that off of our plate, and just eat healthy, and if we're eating out, you don't always get the right stuff that you really need, and just paying attention to what our bodies really need, and just to feel good. I think just physical health is directly correlated with mental health.

Adam Kaufman: Absolutely.

Baker Mayfield: And so just making sure that we have all that in line. We think about it more now than we probably used to.

Adam Kaufman: That's good.

Emily Mayfield: We both naturally are kind of like junk food addicts.

Baker Mayfield: I mean I'm from Texas, I love my queso and margaritas, I'm not going to lie to you, but you know, having somebody that is cooking for us and we feel like we need to be there for her. She's doing her job, we need to do ours and enjoy it as well.

Adam Kaufman: And during the off season, are you able to maybe spend a little more time cooking because it's not as busy, you're not traveling as much or I know you go to Texas, I think, in the offseason.

Emily Mayfield: Yeah, this year we're going to Texas. Seriously, last year we thought we're going to have so much free time in the offseason and it's not as,

Baker Mayfield: We were back and forth everywhere.

Emily Mayfield: So I want to say yes, we'll have more time, but I don't know. We'll see.

Adam Kaufman: Do you set any goals for yourself? He and I talked about goals, like how do you think about goals? Are they short-term, longer-term?

Emily Mayfield: I'm probably more of a short-term goal setter, which,

Baker Mayfield: She already brought up a New Year's resolution last night. So I wouldn't necessarily say she's a short-term.

Emily Mayfield: That's fairly short-term.

Adam Kaufman: Are we able to share on Up2 what that goal is?

Emily Mayfield: Sure, do you remember it?

Baker Mayfield: No.

Adam Kaufman: He just remembered that you had one.

Emily Mayfield: It's the, okay, so yesterday was his grandfather's birthday.

Baker Mayfield: Oh yes. She wanted to be better about birthdays in the family.

Emily Mayfield: I want to send birthday cards for everyone in the family next year, because I'm terrible.

Adam Kaufman: It's a lot easier than it used to be. We can put it all into our phones and put it on repeat annually. You still have to go and get the cards or I guess you could order them online.

Emily Mayfield: But it means so much more when you get a physical card for your birthday.

Adam Kaufman: Absolutely.

Baker Mayfield: And the handwriting on it. I've always been one to keep the cards. They mean a lot.

Adam Kaufman: It's a good goal.

Emily Mayfield: Thank you.

Adam Kaufman: Good luck in achieving it.

Emily Mayfield: Thanks.

Adam Kaufman: Do you have any goals longer-term?

Baker Mayfield: I think the big picture for whatever size family that we'll be fortunate to have, setting an example right now. We don't have a large family right now, but setting an example and having that in my head throughout everyday life.

Adam Kaufman: That goal won't change. I have three teenage kids and I still think about that. So I love hearing you say that at your age right now because, and I'm sure like our parents would say that even at their ages too. So I think that's a never ending goal to be good examples for others.

Baker Mayfield: Exactly.

Adam Kaufman: You have one brother, right?

Baker Mayfield: One older brother, yes.

Adam Kaufman: Okay. And do you have any siblings?

Emily Mayfield: I do. I'm number two of four, so I have an older sister and two younger brothers.

Adam Kaufman: Are y'all close?

Emily Mayfield: We are very close.

Adam Kaufman: That's fun.

Baker Mayfield: They're extremely close.

Emily Mayfield: Baker's my youngest brother's age, so.

Adam Kaufman: Baker's your youngest brother-okay, great.

Emily Mayfield: His brother's-he's between my sister and I, so we all are just clumped together. Everyone's super close. Then it makes it fun.

Baker Mayfield: It makes it really fun when we all get together.

Adam Kaufman: One more question that I have you both here, maybe we could talk about if that's okay is, is it true you guys met via social media? You hear so much about people meeting online or an online. Is that how you guys met?

Emily Mayfield: Kind of sort of. You want me to take this one?

Baker Mayfield: Go ahead. I'll make the corrections.

Emily Mayfield: We always have different stories on this. We had a mutual friend who was from Nebraska and went to Oklahoma with Baker and he had been trying to set us up for quite some time. Both Baker and I were in denial about it and I'll make this a shorter story.

Baker Mayfield: He was the first guy I met when I got to the University of Oklahoma.

Adam Kaufman: Okay.

Baker Mayfield: So small world.

Emily Mayfield: So he tried setting us up, we weren't having it. Baker eventually was sliding in the DMS.

Adam Kaufman: DM for my older listeners, is direct message. Okay.

Emily Mayfield: And then it just, we started talking and one thing led to the next, started dating,

Baker Mayfield: I got rejected for awhile. It wasn't one thing led to the next.

Adam Kaufman: It's very humbling, isn't it?

Baker Mayfield: Yeah, exactly.

Adam Kaufman: Well, the theme of our show is leaders who are as humble as they are successful. So you were humbled there.

Baker Mayfield: I was. Very much so.

Adam Kaufman: We all need that.

Baker Mayfield: Had to be persistent and determined.

Adam Kaufman: That's beautiful. Came out, you set a goal.

Baker Mayfield: Came out victorious on the other end.

Adam Kaufman: That's good.

Emily Mayfield: Very quickly. You'll appreciate this, he wears a wrist, when you said the humble thing, he was a wristband from Oklahoma, that's "humble over hype". It's kind of right in line with what you guys do.

Adam Kaufman: That's spectacular. I mean, look at the card, it says leaders who are as humble as they are successful. And so your bracelet, our card, I mean that's seriously. That's terrific. Thank you for your time today. This period has gone very fast. 30 minutes and I promise to leave it at that. Would love to have you back, good luck in your various goals you've set for yourself.

Baker Mayfield: Thank you so much.

Adam Kaufman: You've got a whole community rooting for you.

Baker Mayfield: Thank you very much.

Emily Mayfield: Thank you so much.

Baker Mayfield: Appreciate it.

Adam Kaufman: Boy, reflecting back on our time with Baker Mayfield and his wife Emily, I was really pleasantly surprised with how authentic he was. I didn't want to assume he was any certain way, but often these public figures are rather guarded about how they speak publicly. But I loved how genuine he seemed and how self-reflective, he definitely was talking about some of his early years. So, I'm so glad we were able to do that. Interviewing somebody like Baker who works in the public eye is quite different than even really large business leaders who aren't on television nationally every Sunday. So, what a thrill that was.

Adam Kaufman: And it's mailbag time. As I've said repeatedly, we accept all forms of feedback and I'm choosing today's letter. I think appropriately having just completed an entire episode where we talked about me, I too need to be humbled, especially on this show about humility. So this letter came from someone I do not know in France, named Jacques, who said to me that he wished I spoke less when interviewing Philippe Bourguignon, the former co-CEO of the Davos World Economic Forum, and board member of eBay, and Neiman Marcus. He literally wrote "the host talked too much", so thank you, Jacques, merci, we all need to be humbled from time to time. Up2 is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. A special thanks to our producer and audio engineer, Dave Douglas. I'm your host Adam Kaufman, and thank you so much for listening to the Up2 podcast.

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