Myths About Peer Pressure: Raising Kids Who Resist the Pressure

Speakers: Susan Borison, Stephanie Silverman & Phyllis Fagell

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Susan Borison:

Welcome to Your Teen with Sue and Steph. I'm Sue.

Stephanie Silverman:

And I'm Steph. We are the co-founders and owners of Your Teen Media, the resource for parenting tweens and teens.

Susan Borison:

And today, we're talking with our good friend and recurring podcast guest, Phyllis Fagell, about the impact of peer pressure on our teens.

But before we talk to her, we're going to talk about our upcoming event. This is our third year for doing Destination College, an eight-week summit that helps answer the questions parents have about college admissions. And it's a great program. We get really, really wonderful feedback.

And I'm going to tell you my favorite quote. “My mind and heart have shifted from worried and anxious to inspired and excited. Thank you a million times.” And this is from Leigh S. who came to our program last year.

Stephanie Silverman:

There are so many great sessions. And a few that I really love having gone through this process three times, is how do you even pick the colleges that your kid is going to apply to? So, how do you come up with that list with your kid? Such a great session.

Also, how do they write their essay? That's one that if I think back to when we were going through the college process, so different today. So, he helping them write that great essay.

And then I think this question, because college has gotten so costly, is how are we going to pay for it? And can we even negotiate the cost of a college?

So, two great sessions focus on paying for college. To register for Destination College, bit.ly/DC-2023. You can also go to our show notes to register.

Susan Borison:

And now, we're going to move on to our stories about peer pressure before you get to hear the wonderful Phyllis Fagell.

It was hard for me to think of times where I felt like there was an experience of peer pressure, I mean, that I can reflect on, because it's already a long time in my life.

But one thing that bubbled to the top for me, which I really, really always bristled at, (and I don't know if I'm alone in this, I doubt I am) but when a kid was having trouble with another kid, they might try to get like a team approach to it and then I'd hear this, “We all think they're such and such.”

And to me, that is really like maybe peer pressuring, maybe bullying, maybe just social exclusion. Whatever it is, it feels like it only happens with that peer group. Like it doesn't happen by yourself that you can have that power, that strength. But it does happen when you can collectively get a group of people and either join it or be the one to get joiners.

Stephanie Silverman:

I can even remember that when I was a teenager.

Susan Borison:

Well, there's so much power in that because people might be looking at some kind of relationship glitch and be thinking, “Well, it's both of you.” Like that's naturally what we think. But now, if you can get more people on your team, now, it feels like the burden is off of you because clearly it's the other person.

Stephanie Silverman:

Yes. Oh, that is a really good one. Yeah, no, I love that, I love that. It's funny. So, my head went in a totally different direction and mine, I was thinking about this with all three of our kids where they were doing something, going somewhere (like fill in the blank there) where they didn't realize how transparent they were that they knew it was a bad idea.

And it's so funny because I can think of each of them, they would be telling me or me and Todd something and I'm thinking, “Wait a minute, you don't even think this is a good idea.” Like the way they would be presenting it to me, it was like you could feel their struggle that they wanted so badly to go and yet they also knew it wasn't a good idea.

And I was thinking about this last night and I was laying in bed and I'm thinking to myself, “Oh my God, that is so funny.” It was like I wish I have a video in my head of it. I can picture so many of these scenarios. I wish I could sit down with them and show them their younger selves struggling with it.

And it just made me think about like even when they are trying so hard to fit in and there is so much pressure and now, with social media, et cetera, that they too in those moments are literally wrestling with it.

Kids were all meeting up like at a local playground and even as the kid is telling me the story, (like you can walk to it from my house) and like, “Yeah, a bunch of us are going to go there. And yeah.” You know when they just they just go, “Yeah.” Like that's the whole sentence or the end of the sentence. “Yeah, yeah, I think we're going to leave here around 11:30.” This is like 10:00 at the time. “I think we're going to leave here around 11:30. Yeah, I'm not really sure who else is going. Yeah.”

Susan Borison:

So, they've set the stage.

Stephanie Silverman:

They've set the stage for my total discomfort. I mean, it's so laughable that now, but even at the time I remember thinking, “You know this sounds ridiculous.” And like watching the kid go up and down the stairs, a backpack going up and down the stairs, hearing them go down the basement, which is like where we kept our alcohol. Just the whole picture was so ridiculous.

And yet, I think they think that we were clueless. Also, thinking like, “You kind of want me to say no right now.”

Susan Borison:

Yeah. That's what happened in my house. They were looking for no.

Stephanie Silverman:

Yeah, exactly.

Susan Borison:

This story is like a communal peer pressure. Like the kids in our neighborhood all went to the same overnight camp and my fourth kid didn't want to go back a second year. Like she went one year because all the other kids went and she didn't want to go back again.

And the three older kids said to her, “Why aren't you coming?” And she said, “I didn't really like it.” And they said, “We don't like it.” And I was like, “Well, why is no one's saying that? Like why do you go to a four-week overnight camp that costs money and you don't like it because everyone else is going?” That is the ultimate-

Stephanie Silverman:

Oh my God, that is really funny.

Susan Borison:

The ultimate in peer pressure.

We just had an adult peer pressure, an adult like crowd bullying where we were in LA, we went to a comedy show. And the MC was very funny and he said, “Who's from out of town?” So, Dan raises his hand. He said, “Where are you from?” “Cleveland, Ohio.” He says, “What do you do?”

Dan says he's a doctor and the guy is just couldn't be more delighted to pick on a doctor. But he's very funny. So, that's all going very well.

The next guy, the first comedian up is not funny at all. I mean, not at all. And he decides as it's going very poorly to go back to the doctor in the audience. And so, he says to the doctor, Dan, “So, you're the doctor, right?” And he is like, “Uh-huh.”

And he goes, “So, how much money do you have in your wallet?” So, Dan's like, “I don't know, $20.” And he goes, “Any teachers in the room?” And the guy raises his hand and the comedian goes, “Okay, give him the $20.” Now, what do you do in that situation? Like it's so uncomfortable.

Dan couldn't win. He takes the $20, he passes it to the guy, then the guy keeps it.

Stephanie Silverman:

Oh my God.

Susan Borison:

That is peer pressure.

Stephanie Silverman:

That is so funny.

Susan Borison:

Well, yeah, it wasn't at the time to Dan, he was like, “What should I have done?” And I'm like, “You should have done exactly what you did because there was no way out.”

Stephanie Silverman:

Totally.

Susan Borison:

Literally no way out.

Stephanie Silverman:

Totally.

Susan Borison:

Yeah. So, I mean, when we were talking about anything that our kids did, trying to brainstorm, he said, “How about my story?” And I'm like, “You know what, what it shows is how hard it is to go against a crowd no matter how old you are.”

Stephanie Silverman:

That's a great line. It's so true. It's so hard. It makes me think about … and obviously, our guests will hear this with Phyllis Fagell. We talked very specifically about this especially right now, where there is so much pressure on these kids for everything, but also, to do the right thing.

And if I think back when I was their age, I think the kids today are so much braver, are so much better equipped. I think they do such a fantastic job of advocating and really speaking their minds and I can't imagine how hard that is today.

Susan Borison:

Okay, up next is our conversation with Phyllis Fagell.

Stephanie Silverman:

We can't wait for you to join us.

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Susan Borison:

Phyllis Fagell is a licensed clinical professional counselor, a certified professional school counselor, a frequent contributor to Your Teen Media and author of Middle School Matters. She's a school counselor, therapist, speaker, and consultant on issues relating to parenting, counseling and education.

Phyllis, thanks so much for joining us.

We all know the term peer pressure. I mean, it existed when we were kids and before we were kids and it continues to exist. But is there like some definition that you live by of what is peer pressure?

Phyllis Fagell:

I think when I was growing up, I remember Nancy Reagan’s Just Say No campaign, just say no to drugs. And we found out that it didn't work for obvious reasons.

But I think I grew up with this understanding that peer pressure meant that you are going to be coerced into doing something you don't want to do or that you're not comfortable with. And you're going to have to have refusal skills.

And it's not that you don't need to be prepared to say no if somebody is pressuring you to do something, but much more commonly, a peer is going to be behaving in a way near you and that is what's going to influence you.

So, it's really peer presence more than peer pressure or behavior contagion that will influence how you behave.

Stephanie Silverman:

Is behavior contagion the same as social contagion and is that the same as peer pressure? Are we using those all interchangeably?

Phyllis Fagell:

So, peer pressure is behavior contagion. I think one of the other misconceptions about behavior contagion or peer influence is that it's always bad. So, I do want to point out that sometimes peer pressure can be leveraged for good. So, sometimes you're around people making good decisions and you're more likely to make good decisions.

Another piece of it is that behavior contagion is even more complicated than you might think. So, we think about how we often tell kids you are who you're with. And while that's true, it's not that simple.

It's not just who they're hanging out with, it's also, what the kids in their social network who have the capital, who have the popularity, who have the ability to influence the culture. So, it's not only who their friends are, but what the popular kids in their network are doing and what people in the culture who they admire are doing.

So, we want to be really mindful of who we're celebrating and who they're surrounded by.

Susan Borison:

It's a little funny because peer pressure is so pejorative, it's like the thing you don't want your kid to fall prey to. But on the other hand, the solution is to find another group that influences your kid's behavior, which is also, peer pressure, right?

Phyllis Fagell:

Yes, a hundred percent. And so, I think for parents, one of the things that's really frustrating is that we might be able to see in a nanosecond that they're hanging out with kids who are more likely to get them to make decisions that are maybe not in their best interests or that will get them in trouble or that will lead them to do things that go against your family's values.

And we can't make them shift gears and hang out with other people. We can ask them lots of questions to get them to be thinking about whether or not they are making good decisions in the presence of those particular peers.

But we're going to have a lot more luck if we, number one, educate them about what peer pressure is or what peer influence really is, so that they can really start to understand what their vulnerabilities are.

Like have they noticed that maybe they're making these decisions when they're trying to impress a particular friend? Or maybe it's when they're really tired, or maybe it's when they are trying to make somebody laugh and they do something really silly that backfires.

So, we want them to be mindful of when they're in situations where they're likely to make these decisions and we want them to be surrounding themselves with people who are making good decisions.

And while we can't pick their friends, we can encourage them to hang out with kids who prioritize things like healthy choices and a balanced life, but achievement oriented or hard work, whatever it is that we as parents value ourselves.

And maybe that means that they're getting involved with volunteer work or they're on the newspaper or they're in the orchestra. Or even if they're surrounded by kids making poor decisions in their immediate environment, maybe they're doing something outside of school that exposes them to a different set of influences.

Susan Borison:

I think it's so interesting what you just said that we can't pick our kids' friends, but we can influence them. And I have this lingering feeling that the more I didn't want them to be friends with somebody, the more enticing it was to stay in that relationship.

So, like what does it look like to influence our kids' friend group?

Phyllis Fagell:

So, some of it is asking lots of questions so that they are maybe exercising some more flexibility in how they're approaching their friends. Helping them recognize that maybe they really want to be popular and so, they're doing what they need to do to get that status in their social group.

Or maybe we've noticed that when they're with one particular friend, we're always getting a call from the school to let us know they cut class and what do they think that's about?

Rather than saying, “I don't want you hanging out with that kid.” In which case they're probably going to either sneak around or twist themselves into a pretzel to prove that we're wrong. We want them to be coming to those conclusions themselves without feeling judged by us because as soon as they feel judged or criticized, they're likely to shut down.

And kids really rise to the level of our expectations. So, we want to be talking to them with a lot of respect and we want to be talking to them as if they're a little older and more mature than they are. And letting them know that we think they're capable of making good decisions and that we are there to help them and support them even as they make these mistakes along the way.

Stephanie Silverman:

Let's talk about gender for a minute. Does that impact a kid's reaction to peer pressure? How does that play in?

Phyllis Fagell:

It's really interesting. I think one of the things that really sticks out for me in the research … and the research uses binary language talks about boys and girls and so, that's why I will as well. But one of the things that researchers have found is that boys are more likely to make poor decisions when they're in the presence of same sex peers than girls are.

They're more susceptible to that, they're much more competitive, interested in dominance and things like that, which lead them to make those poor decisions more often than girls when in the presence of same age, same gender peers.

Susan Borison:

I think you spoke about how peer pressure and hate speech are kind of connected. Can you explain what you mean there?

Phyllis Fagell:

So, I was talking to a researcher about hate speech. It was around the time that everything was going down on Twitter, when Elon Musk had taken over and there was suddenly this huge increase in hate speech. And I found it so disturbing and depressing.

And when I was talking to a researcher about it, he said that when you look at kids' behavior or adults' behavior, what you find is that they don't necessarily, in fact, they often don't subscribe to the belief system and that in fact they will go out of their way to prove their authenticity, to prove that they belong with whatever that subgroup of people making hateful comments is doing.

Because in their world, that is the subgroup that has the social capital. So, they're really doing whatever they can to prove that they belong because they're afraid that they will be kicked out of that group.

So, that's both depressing and reassuring. I find it reassuring that probably fewer people than we might think, actually a spouse, will believe those hateful views. But also, shows the power of behavior contagion, the susceptibility that not only kids but adults have to making those kinds of comments, whether it's online or offline.

Susan Borison:

How do you get to the bottom of hate speech? Like if there's an incidence at school or in the home, will a kid answer like a basic question of, “Do you actually believe what you just said?” Is that like a good approach?

Phyllis Fagell:

Yeah, I think so. I think really talking about your own values and giving a kid a broader understanding of what they've done and the harm that they've inflicted on someone else building their empathy is helpful.

But what I'm really interested in from that behavior piece is how do we get other kids in that moment to stand up and speak up when there's so much social risk involved, you run the risk that you'll be targeted, you run the risk that you might be ostracized. And so, it takes a lot of bravery in that moment.

And one of the things that I think parents can do is give kids the language, even if it's just to quickly say, “That's not okay.” And jump in and speak up in that moment, that in and of itself can be powerful and kick off a ripple effect.

Kids really do want to do the right thing and they want to be good people, but often they get tongue-tied or they get stuck. It's like analysis paralysis. And so, I always tell kids, you can go back later and circle back to the person you wish you had said something to, even if you missed the opportunity in the moment.

It's not only going to be helpful to the person who is targeted, but it's a way for the child to build their own courage muscle to get used to speaking up in the moment. And maybe they have to start with smaller steps.

In my community, not that long ago, there was an incident where there were a spade of different anti-Semitic acts, including a sign put outside the local high school that said, “Jews not welcome.” And a lot of kids were really horrified by this and didn't expect it. There's a sizable Jewish population in this school.

And when some of the students took the lead and organized a walkout to really show support for the Jewish students in this school community, hundreds of kids walked out.

And one of the people who spoke to the group of students when they did that walking out was a rabbi from a nearby synagogue who had the kids in real time practice saying things in the moment. And had them rehearse turning to the person next to them and saying, “I have your back, I'm here for you and I know you're here for me or hope you're here for me at least.” And then practicing things like, “That really offended me when you said that.”

Something very simple and straightforward, but just giving kids that simple set of tools so that they can respond when it's happening.

Stephanie Silverman:

So, it's interesting. Our next question has to do with middle school. And I'm curious if there's a difference between what you were just describing. Can middle schoolers do that? Because our question is around, is middle school the height of joining due to peer pressure? Is that the sweet spot, if you will?

Phyllis Fagell:

Yes, there's definitely an increase in that sense of the imaginary audience that everyone is scrutinizing and judging your every move. The spotlight effect is real for everybody, but it's really something that middle schoolers are acutely aware of.

Which doesn't mean they can't do all of the things we're talking about, but it does mean that it's harder and they're still figuring out their own identity. So, they're more vulnerable to worrying about what people will think about them and however they identify, whatever salient parts of their identity, they hold close to them.

And so, it's scary to stick up for someone else and run the risk that you might be targeted as well, which is why it's so important in the middle school years in particular to make sure they have things like affinity groups or opportunities to get together with other kids who share their identity.

Because the more secure they are in themselves, the easier it is for them to stick up for other people and to also, be really authentic with them to say, “We recognize that this is scary, we recognize that this is hard.” And to give them examples of people who stood up anyway, even though it was hard.

And to really tap into the social capital of the kids in the community who could be the leaders, the ones who using the whole idea of peer influence and the idea that the kids who have the social capital drive the culture and drive how everyone behaves.

I think adults and teachers, schools can do a lot to leverage those kids to get them to be behaving in the way that we want them to behave, but also, to be really celebrating anybody who is an upstander, anybody who is doing the right thing.

The contrary to popular belief, the way you stop negative acts or negative behavior isn't so much related to who you punish or how you punish them or what the consequences are. Kids are paying a lot of attention to what you're celebrating, what's valued in that community. And so, we as adults can be very mindful of celebrating and honoring and pointing out when people are doing the right thing.

Susan Borison:

All of this is a little bit connected to bullying and this whole sphere of social angst that kids live with like on a regular basis. And you behave badly because you're hoping to not be the one who's the brunt of it. So, if it's all about bolstering good behavior, are there schools doing it well?

Phyllis Fagell:

I think this is something that a lot of schools are really working hard to get right, especially right now, when kids are more sensitive and they're having a harder time resolving conflict, they're having a harder time assuming positive intent in their peers, which leads to more understanding, more physical fights.

We're seeing it in the form of more racist language, more swastikas, more homophobia. And I think that no matter what we do, it's never going to be enough. We're always going to be having to step it up a notch and keep working at it.

This is work that we've been doing since — we've always had to do that kind of work in schools with students because they're empathy is still developing and they're so acutely sensitive to being excluded or feeling like they're on the outs and they're so interested in popularity.

And so, if we're in an environment where being popular has something to do with being hateful, it's a lot harder to get those kids to behave the way we want them to behave. So, some communities have to work harder than other communities and we really have to be mindful of actually using the students in the schools to do this work.

It's not enough to just have a one-off advisory lesson or have somebody come in and give a talk on what it was like to live through the Holocaust. These one-off visits or comments are just not going to do it.

This is work that has to be ongoing and baked into the culture, baked into what we're rewarding, baked into how we're holding kids accountable, how we are giving kids an opportunity to make things right. If we are only punitive, they get stuck in shame and that doesn't serve us either.

But we do have to really let kids know when we're disappointed and when they have wounded someone and help them find a way back to doing the right thing, which can take a lot of work on the part of schools.

Susan Borison:

I just love that the rabbi had them turn and practice the language. Like to me, that's the biggest hurdle, is getting your mouth around words that you've never used before that are so hard. So, I love that part of it.

And you also said something about peer influencers, which can go for good or bad, but we're talking I think from the parental perspective of good.

And that takes us into this whole conversation of social media where influencer is the word of the day. And we often hear about these viral challenges that go out on social media and probably started by these social influencers.

Some of them are terrible, but some of them uplift and change things. Like how do we raise kids in a time where you can go so right and so wrong at the same time?

Phyllis Fagell:

So, again, I think it has to do with do with who you're celebrating. Are you talking about kids who are in the news because they maybe have a learning difference or a physical disability and they are making TikTok videos about how they've overcome that disability and they have been a champion for disability rights?

Or are you celebrating the person who's in the news for doing something really hateful and even calling attention to them over and over again as opposed to using that time instead to be really talking about other people who are doing good things.

Are you challenging lyrics that are hateful when you hear them on the radio? Are you pointing out when there's an article about misogynistic locker room talk or something along those lines? Are you having conversations about what it must feel like for someone who has been targeted and helping them get outside their own experience. Which is also, so hard for kids to do, especially in the middle school years as you mentioned.

Stephanie Silverman:

Okay. So, let's take a scenario. And I think many of us as parents have been there. Your kid is following the quote “bad kid”. Can parents reverse that trend? What influence do we have, don't have?

Phyllis Fagell:

Yeah. I always love the question here, do you think you are your best self? And putting it back on them because if we make it all about how we are disappointed, then we are giving them something to rebel against.

So, we want to drop the rope and make them wrestle with these decisions that they're making. Is this who they want to be? How do they want to show up in the world? Having conversations about the things that they most value.

I do an activity with students where I give them a scenario. I have them imagine that they are invited to a sleepover of somebody, a classmate who doesn't have a lot of social capital, but they're a nice person. Your child likes them, but it's not somebody who is considered popular.

And for the week leading up to the sleepover or the weeks leading up to the sleepover, the friend keeps asking your kid, “What kind of snacks do you want? What movie do you want to watch?” And so, your child is very aware that this is a big deal for that kid, that they're really excited.

And then you get invited to a sleepover birthday party that your best friend is having with five of your other closest friends, all of whom are much more popular. And then I say to the kids, “I want you to make a decision. What would you do if you're in that situation?”

And I say to them, “You can decide what is in your interest, but I want you to also factor in what you think is the kind thing to do or the nice thing to do. So, if you're factoring in (I call it interference) all of the emotions jumbling through your head, what decision would you make?”

And nine times out of 10, they come back with a way to justify bailing on the first sleepover. And often it might be something like, “Well, it's more important to be at your best friend's party than at a sort of friend's sleepover.” So, kids are going to find a way to justify making the unkind decision if it's in their best interest and truly believe that they are doing the right thing.

And then after I do that scenario with them, I give them a list of values. I use Brene Brown's Daring Greatly values, or the Values Card Sort is another set of values. And I tell them to have their kid choose the top 10 values, the things that are most central to how they want to show up in the world and the kind of person they want to be and the kind of people they want to surround themselves with. And I do that independent of that scenario.

And then I go back to the scenario which they're not expecting, and I say to them, “Remember that scenario we just talked about with the sleepover? I want you to puzzle through it again, only this time, I want you to forget what you think is kind. I want you to forget what you want. I want you to forget anything that has to do with thinking. And I want you to look at the top 10 values on the list that you chose and make the decision that is most closely aligned with the values.”

And when you do that, many of them change-

Susan Borison:

It's so mean, Phyllis, it's so mean.

Phyllis Fagell:

They change their mind. And then I ask them, “How many of you think you'd be more comfortable in the long run with the first decision or the second decision?” And they generally choose the second decision. They kind of get it.

And I explain to them that when you're in a quandary, when you're not sure if you're doing the right thing, it's a good way to do a gut check. You may still end up … they're middle schoolers or high schoolers, they're probably still vulnerable to making the less kind choice, but at least they're pausing long enough to ask themselves if they would make the same choice and do that gut check. And they're less likely to have regrets if they do that.

And the reason it works is because you strip away all the interference. Their core values are so much more stable than FOMO or FOPO or worrying about impressing peers or missing out on fun. And so, it's a way to kind of get around that. And I think we have to understand that that's what we're up against. Every single time a kid is making a decision, they're up against themselves.

Susan Borison:

What is FOPO?

Phyllis Fagell:

Fear of other people's opinions.

Susan Borison:

This whole conversation to me speaks to the social hierarchy of being an adolescent. And we see kids, we know kids who are desperate to be in the popular group. And parents suffer when their kids are not in that group.

And it's like I had someone tell me recently, “I just wish they could find a different group, but they only want to be in that group.” What do we do as parents? How do we change that perspective for that kid?

Phyllis Fagell:

You can't change your child's feelings. You can validate that they want to be popular and then you can talk to them about whether the pursuit of popularity is serving them or if it's making them feel worse.

And sometimes you might have to say to them, “This doesn't have to be a forever decision, but I want you to have right fit friends for right now.”

Because if you look at kids who really feel like they're on the outs, it starts out with trying really hard to be nice and to fit in and they're bending themselves, again, twisting themselves into a pretzel to do whatever those people want them to do so that they can fit in.

And then the next step when they feel like that's not working, might be to lash out and do things that are not pro-social in order to try to get that inclusion any way they can. And then the last stage is really to withdraw and often feel ostracized, depressed.

So, it's really important that we're directing kids toward people who make them feel good and having those conversations with them without dismissing that desire to be popular. That's part of the phase.

And if we try to talk them out of it, we're just going to lose their buy-in because we're going to lose our authenticity. We have to acknowledge that that's important to them and that it's not working out quite the way they wanted to.

But for those who are listening, one of the things that I share with kids to help them deal with the disappointment and is that the kids who are the most popular often are not the happiest because the research shows that as kids scale the heights, they're stepping on the heads of the people below them to get that popularity.

So, the closer they are to the top of the heap, the more likely they are to be surrounded by fair weather friends in frenemies, so sort of disloyal friends, which doesn't feel very good or stable.

And there's a lot of research showing that if you are around people who are getting popularity or you are getting popularity through deviant means or meanness or power aggression, you have pretty poor long-term outcomes. You're not developing the interpersonal skills you need to be successful as adults.

So, this stuck with me ever since I interviewed a researcher in California many, many years ago. He was looking at social maps to figure out who was popular and what the implications were. And at the time, he had had a baby daughter.

And he told me at the time that his worst fear was that his daughter, this like little baby who was maybe 18 months old at the time, was going to grow up to be popular because he knew that that did not equate to good outcomes or happiness.

Although one time I said to a middle schooler, “Just so you know, the kids who are not the most popular are not necessarily the happiest. And there's a lot of research that shows that.” And he looked at me and he said, “No offense, but I'm going to have to see that so-called research.”

Stephanie Silverman:

What about the argument from our teens, “But everybody's doing it.”

Phyllis Fagell:

So, that's another really interesting point because parents can really challenge that. And one of the ways you can appeal to middle schoolers in particular is to tap into that desire they all have to not be duped.

And the media, and social media, TV, music, all of the forms of entertainment and pop culture that they're exposed to give them this idea that everyone is doing it. And it could be the it, could be drinking or vaping or sex.

And if you actually look at the data, in reality, everyone isn't doing it. In fact, very few people are doing it. 75% of tweens are not drinking and have never had a drink. And depending on the region of the country, somewhere between 2.7 and 12% of kids have engaged in sexual intercourse, which again means the vast majority are not.

And so, we can really alleviate that pressure that they might be feeling because they have this faulty belief that everybody is doing it and that in and of itself can deter them from making some of these decisions that are not good for them at that age.

Stephanie Silverman:

Alright. So, we're going to wrap up with the question we ask all of our guests. What is the biggest myth about raising teens?

Phyllis Fagell:

Oh, my goodness, there's so many. I think the biggest myth is probably that it's this horrible phase to dread. I say this as the parent of two teens and the recent teen who's entered his 20s now. And I have so enjoyed this phase of their life.

And getting them through middle school and high school, I won't say it's easy. There are definitely some interesting moments and some interesting phone calls and lots of teaching moments, lots of opportunities to coach them. But kids are so funny and it goes so quickly and they're so fun.

So, I would really recommend that parents try to focus on the fact that they have so much influence during these years, even when it doesn't seem like kids are listening and really use this time to forge close bonds, to allow their child to be who they are and to not subscribe to that myth that the tween and teen years are this awful, awful time that you just have to somehow grin and bear. I think they're really fun.

Susan Borison:

Phyllis Fagell, first of all, I just want to start with the tone of your voice. It is so soothing. So, it's like if I want to be a better mother, I just have to listen to the gentle way you talk and then use some of your words because they're so, so helpful.

So, thank you so much for being here with us and for coming back again and again. Thanks so much.

Phyllis Fagell:

Thank you for having me.

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Stephanie Silverman:

Thanks for joining us today. If you have any topics that you want us to talk about, let us know on our Facebook page or email [email protected]. You can follow Your Teen on Facebook by searching Your Teen for Parents and on Instagram and Twitter @YourTeenMag.

Susan Borison:

Okay, so, we're two moms who share everything. We read an article and we go like, “Oh my God, my friend. My friend has that same story.” We listen to a podcast and we think to ourselves, “Who can we share this with? It was so good.”

And we're hoping you're the same. We're hoping you're listening to our podcast, Your Teen with Sue and Steph, and you're so excited by what you're hearing that you're sharing it with a friend.

We’re so grateful in advance for you doing that because that changes our whole story. We get much more exposure and we want everyone to hear what our fabulous, talented experts have to say to help us raise our teenagers.

Stephanie Silverman:

You can find more from us at yourteenmag.com and listen to all our episodes on evergreenpodcasts.com or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Susan Borison:

Your Teen with Sue and Steph is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. Special thanks to executive producer Michael Dealoia, plus, our favorite producer, Hannah Leach and audio engineer, Gray Longfellow.

Stephanie Silverman:

We'll see you next time.

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