Hosted by top 5 banking and fintech influencer, Jim Marous, Banking Transformed highlights the challenges facing the banking industry. Featuring some of the top minds in business, this podcast explores how financial institutions can prepare for the future of banking.
Inclusive and accessible digital experiences are more important now than ever before.
61 million adults in the US live with a disability and the average American reads to a 7th/8th grade level. Are your digital platforms, content, campaigns and social media posts easily accessed and understood by all? Or are you excluding huge portions of your online audience?
We are very fortunate to have James Deignan, Inclusion and Accessibility Specialist at Texthelp and Jeff Wissel, Director of the office of customer accessibility at Fidelity Investments on the Banking Transformed podcast. We will discuss the rationale and benefits of ensuring that websites, social media and customer engagement are accessible and inclusive.
Texthelp are leaders in digital inclusion and accessibility software with products used by over 40 million users. ReachDeck offers an all-in-one solution to help financial organizations improve the accessibility, readability and reach of websites and online content.
For more information or a free scan of your website visit our website.
Jim Marous: Hello and welcome to another Banking Transformed Solutions Podcast. I'm your host Jim Marous, owner and CEO of the Digital Banking Report and co-publisher of The Financial Brand. Inclusive and accessible digital experiences are more important now than ever before. 61 million adults in the US live with a disability and the average American reads to a seventh or eighth grade level. Are your digital platform's content campaigns and social media posts easily accessible and understood by all?
Jim Marous: Or are they excluding a huge portion of your potential online audience? We are fortunate to have James Deignan, inclusion and accessibility specialist at Texthelp, and Jeff Wissel, director of the Office of Customer Accessibility at Fidelity Investments, on the show. We will discuss the rationale and benefits of ensuring that websites, social media, and customer engagement are accessible and inclusive. Inclusivity and accessibility are concepts that have an increasingly important role in financial marketing.
Jim Marous: Beyond creating content that is sensitive to differences in race, gender, or cultural background, inclusivity and accessibility in communication means much more. Marketers must take into account age, disabilities, socioeconomic status, sexuality, employment type, language, geography, and other dynamics that can make communication less accessible to segments of the population. Failing to do so can have a negative legal and financial impact. Being aware of diversity in the marketplace, however, can have a significant upside.
Jim Marous: As mentioned earlier, we have two guests on the show today. First off, we have James Deignan, inclusion and accessibility specialist at Texthelp, a leader in digital inclusion and accessibility software. We also have Jeff Wissel, director of the Office of Customer Accessibility for Fidelity Investments. To start us off today, can both of you introduce yourselves and give the people a quick overview of what you mean by chatting about digital accessibility and online inclusion? James?
James Deignan: Thanks, Jim. I appreciate you having us on the show today. My name is James Deignan. As Jim had said, I specialize in promoting inclusion and accessibility in the workplace. I myself am also neuro diverse. I have ADD. That should provide some context on how I can relate to accessibility in general.
Jim Marous: And Jeff?
Jeff Wissel: Hi, Jim and thanks for this opportunity. On behalf of Fidelity investments, we're honored to be here. I'm Jeff Wissel. To give an audio description on myself, I'm a middle aged Caucasian male with very short light brown hair. I'm proud to say I'm a user of assistive technologies, as I have a degenerative eye disease called retinitis pigmentosa. I'm legally blind, and I'm dependent upon screen reading technology.
Jeff Wissel: When I refer to digital accessibility and online inclusion, it's really about being intentional about our development and design to ensure that all of our associates and customers can fully participate. Online inclusion is really ensuring that we're meeting our customers where they are, and that our content is more of a kaleidoscope view as opposed to a single lens that everybody must fit within.
Jim Marous: It's interesting, because as I get older, I'm realizing how important it is to have screens that are easier to be read that I don't have to adjust or communication that's... We sometimes get into jargonese. Often we talk about inclusion and diversity in banking, but some of our listeners may not be familiar with how this impacts communication or why this concept should be important. James, can you discuss the why?
James Deignan: Absolutely. Inclusion and diversity are obviously hot topics currently being discussed with many organizations across the United States. I think what's often overlooked when thinking about accessibility is... Jeff had alluded to it before, but meeting our customers where they are and making sure that they have the necessary resources to have a customer experience that is applicable to everyone, that is inclusive and equal across the board.
James Deignan: A lot of brands I think think that they're inclusive, but they really miss the mark when you're looking at web accessibility specifically. When we recently did a white paper where we scanned 30 of the top financial institutions in the nation, of the technical accessibility, let's just say that a lot of it needs improvement. But a surprising fact that we'll get to a little bit later on, the average reading age across all 30 those of those sites was 19.
James Deignan: Just to put that in a little bit of context for people, what most people do not understand about the fact that the reading age is 19 across all these websites is that the average reading age in the United States and Canada of a typical adult is between the ages of 12 to 14. Let that sink in for a minute. We're providing content and services that is described and written at a grade level that is five grade levels higher than what the average American can understand.
Jim Marous: Wow! Jeff, if we talk about that and we talk about just the reading accessibility, what would you say to bankers who claim that the majority of users and customers don't have accessibility needs?
Jeff Wissel: For me, Jim, I would say that this type of claim is formed by the lack to proximity. 70% of disabilities are invisible, and 70% of disabilities are formed by, and I'm using air quotes, "the glorious aging process." When we say one out of four people throughout the world have some form of a disability, it's hard to imagine because we can't see 70% of them. I think therefore it's critically important for those of us who are directly impacted by disabilities or indirectly impacted by disabilities through a spouse, partner, family member, or friends, to really share personal stories and bring that proximity. I think about Fidelity.
Jeff Wissel: We have our employee resource group called Fidelity Enable for associates with disabilities. We have over 5,000 active members and many of them self-disclose various disabilities. We have thousands of comments from our customer base where they self-disclosed various disabilities and how that impacts their ability to do business with companies. For me, that claim is really more of just not seeing it. It's there and it's up to all of us to make it present and bring that proximity to senior leadership and everywhere that we can, because it is there.
Jim Marous: Sticking with you, Jeff, sometimes we see accessibility and readability into websites and communications is seen as optional. Maybe because we're so used to just have represented and having the person themselves have to make the adjustments. It's certainly not easy to accomplish. Why is this important at Fidelity?
Jeff Wissel: I would say this is extremely important to us at Fidelity. At Fidelity, I mean, we are fortunate to be one of the world's leading providers for 401(k) and 403(b) retirement services. Tens of millions of employees are counting on Fidelity to help them with their retirement planning. We have millions of customers who count on us to help them with their personal investing needs. We have over 55,000 associates who work tirelessly on being customer obsessed.
Jeff Wissel: We simply want to make sure that everyone of our associates has what they need and how they need to use our technology in a way that helps them and all of our customers fully participate in our products and services. We place a tremendous amount of focus on enhancing our accessibility capabilities. We're also requiring that of our suppliers. We procure thousands of products and services and we want to make sure that we are asking before we buy, because we don't want to exclude anybody. I mean, who wants to exclude 15% of a potential customer base?
Jeff Wissel: We feel that everyone counts, everyone matters, and everyone needs to be able to be involved, especially with finances, which is very personal.
Jim Marous: James, when we discuss the need for inclusion and accessibility, especially accessibility, we often reference the Americans with Disabilities Act. Can you explain a little bit about the legal obligations around accessibility and inclusion that our listeners should be aware of?
James Deignan: Absolutely. Yes. When it comes to the Americans with Disabilities Act, or ADA, in 2018 basically, the DOJ said that your website is an extension of your storefront. Like making physical accommodations for your storefront, the same thing needs to be done for your website. Under Title II and III of the ADA, you are required by law to make sure that your website is compliant. Now, in order for a website to be complaint, you need to adhere to the WCAG 2.1 guidelines. Now, WCAG stands for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines.
James Deignan: They were created by the World Wide Web Consortium. What the goal is of WCAG is to create a standard structure which allows users to engage with your website. Now, this is particularly important for customers who use assistive technology such as a screen reader. Now, this is a big issue across the entire globe, but specifically here in the United States. Some big names that have been hit hard by digital accessibility are Domino's, Netflix, Amazon, and Beyonce are just a few names that have already incurred digital accessibility lawsuits.
James Deignan: It's really important not only to follow the WCAG structure, but also make sure that the content is readable so that it can be understood by your entire audience. That is what we mean when we say digital accessibility from an ADA perspective.
Jim Marous: James, when banks and financial institutions focus on improving the experience of their customers with disabilities, they have to go beyond that, don't they? They have to go beyond the ADA and go beyond technical accessibility. What should organizations do further and where should they start?
James Deignan: That's a great question. Technical accessibility is a great starting point because it's clearcut. It's either meets WCAG or it doesn't, right? When we recommend going beyond technical accessibility and the structure of your website, we're talking about content creation and readability. We bring this up because it's often one of the most overlooked pieces when looking at web accessibility. The analogy I think of for the two parts of web accessibility is the building of a house.
James Deignan: You can create a sturdy frame and an external set of walls that really holds up your structure. But if you don't fill in the walls and the weathering and if they're not done correctly, you're going to have a sturdy house full of holes. Readability in a web accessibility standpoint are currently the walls and the weathering. It's unknown to many businesses that they already have large gaps in what they see as a whole and complete structure.
James Deignan: By filling in those gaps, you'll be able to have your customers not only understand your content better, but they'll have a better user experience that they'll pass onto other users or return for future business.
Jim Marous: Jeff, we're talking about going beyond the basics. Could you discuss some of the ways that Fidelity went further than what was required to meet the needs of those who have difficulty with traditional communications?
Jeff Wissel: Absolutely. I want to piggyback off of what James was saying. One of the things that our employee resource group did in the past two years with our properties group, we did a walkthrough with a lot of associates who had various disabilities, visible, invisible, and so forth. Going above, as James mentioned, if a door has a five pound per square inch push/pull ratio, technically "it's accessible."
Jeff Wissel: But for an individual, an associate, or an individual who uses a manual wheelchair for mobility and upper body weakness, maybe cerebral palsy, trying to back up and pull that door open, instead of five pound per square inch push/pull ration, that easily could be a thousand pounds to that individual. Technically it's accessible, but it's not "usable." I think that really ties into a couple of examples that I'd like to share from a technology standpoint. In our personal investing business unit, we actually have an accessibility help desk.
Jeff Wissel: For customers who are navigating our websites and mobile apps, if they're using assistive technology and running into any type of accessibility barriers, this team provides that extra level of assistance. They have the software on their computers and so forth to provide assistance while they're using our products and services. Another example, our learning and development team. We have 15 functions of learning and development throughout our enterprise.
Jeff Wissel: There's an accessibility champion on each of those L&D teams, learning and development teams, and they've put together a lot of inclusive programs, trainings for our phone associates and our branch associates. Again, bringing that proximity to the table. And really, how do you best interact with someone who shares with you that they're deaf, hard of hearing, blind, low vision, and so forth?
Jeff Wissel: We want our customers to feel like they found their people. A big part of that is just providing the training and the awareness and creating every experience with empathy as a beginning point. I think one of the last examples, we thrive on customer feedback as it pertains to accessibility. If there are any pain points or accessibility barriers that our customers encounter, we have the ability to get that feedback directly to the developers and designers of that product or service to really help prioritize the remediation efforts.
Jeff Wissel: Those are just a couple of examples of how we try to go above. There's still so much more we want and need to do, but accessibility is certainly a journey as we all know.
Jim Marous: Jeff, you mentioned that a lot of these disabilities are invisible. And being invisible, two things happen. Number one, from my perspective is number one, how do you find out what barriers there are that don't come out right every day? It maybe a minor segment. It maybe something that you don't realize that this disability may have this impact, anything from blindness, in your case, to Alzheimer's, AIDS, all these other items. How do you find those micro segments where there is a disability that makes it so your site is inaccessible?
Jim Marous: And on the other side of that, how do you make it so consumers with these disabilities find out that you fixed, at least tried to fix, that problem for them?
Jeff Wissel: It's a great question. There's multiple ways to answer that. I want to share I think two examples of how we find the different segments and uncover the various communities, disability communities, and so forth. I mentioned a kaleidoscope lens earlier. I think about my eye disease and the lens that I look at life through. That's just my experience. There's so many other individuals who share the same eye disease who have totally different symptoms and characteristics of it.
Jeff Wissel: Really finding as many viewpoints and use cases as possible is one of those key areas that we find this in. We realized that accessibility is a journey and every company and organization is... They're at various stages of this journey. We follow the philosophy that when we share best practices with other companies and organizations, it ensures that when one of us wins in the accessibility space, we all win.
Jeff Wissel: I think our friends at JP Morgan, we've done several conference presentations with them, and one of the titles that we used is competitors in business, collaborators in accessibility. No one has this all figured out. But when we share, we learn and we all improve and get better together. There's a phrase that is very common out there. Nothing about us without us. That's one of the key ways too, Jim, that we find out about the various segments.
Jeff Wissel: The other thing I want to share too, oftentimes large companies and organizations have policies that were created a long time ago and are still in place today. When we evaluate our policies and procedures, we try to look at the various use cases that our customers have shared with us about barriers that they may have encountered and so forth. We look at those policies and procedures with that lens in mind to think, okay, we're doing this for cybersecurity and risk and fraud and all these things, but is it causing barriers unintentionally?
Jeff Wissel: What we find is when we find an issue like that and we fix it, it fixes it for not only the accessibility use case, but for everybody. A lot of things that we find are customer satisfiers for many segments not just the disability segment.
Jim Marous: James, we've talked about a lot of different things that Fidelity has done. Could you share some examples from some of your other clients?
James Deignan: Yeah. In terms of solutions that other customers have implemented in terms of implementing web accessibility or accessibility across their organizations, one initiative that Jeff had mentioned that I've seen elsewhere implemented by customers is the implementation of a customer accessibility help desk. This is really important in providing an option for users that may just need a little bit more help.
James Deignan: One of the features of a tool set that Texthelp actually offer is called ReachDeck is our tool bar and how customers have implemented that on their website. It provides a set of tools that are premium feature for navigating a website where somebody might just require a little bit of extra help. For example, it does text to speech. It can do translation in over a hundred different languages, with 50 of them being spoken back in their native tongue.
James Deignan: To answer your question, the solutions that I've seen really work is providing an outlet for customers that feel that they might not have a voice or an avenue to finding a solution, as well as providing technology that's going to ultimately empower self-service to get over the hurdle.
Jim Marous: James, I know you mentioned earlier in the conversation that you conducted some research into the accessibility and readability of websites from some of the top national and community banks. Can you talk a little bit about the findings and was it a positive picture or negative?
James Deignan: Yeah, that's actually a great question. We did scan 30 of the top financial institution's websites for not only technical accessibility, but the readability piece that I've been harping on. I don't want to detract from the businesses, but it was not really a positive picture when you look at the technical accessibility of these 30 websites. 15 of the websites were national retail banks and 15 of them were community banks. We wanted to look at both of the retail sides of the banking, pardon me, of banking.
James Deignan: Now, what was found was close to 150,000 WCAG single and double A errors across the 30 sites. Now, that breaks down to about 4,900 errors per domain, which is quite a lot when you think about it. Just to put it into perspective what web accessibility might be for somebody or a challenge or WCAG issue or guideline that might come up is alternative text, for example. Most people, although we provide options for alternative texts in lots of our programs, including all of G Suite, Word, whatnot, most people don't know what alternative text is.
James Deignan: Alternative text is providing a description of a picture or an image that cannot be read by a screen reader. For somebody that has low visibility or maybe legally blind, it provides them context of what that image is trying to describe, because they don't have the ability to see it. Now, most people aren't aware of what alternative text is. Just by taking a few moments to add meaningful alternative text can really make a difference on somebody's overall experience on the website.
James Deignan: The last thing that I had mentioned before in terms of what our scans found, but I found to be really important or an eye opener is that the average reading age across all of these sites is 19 years old. Now, I said it before, but average reading age is 12 to 14, yet content is written to 19. When you're going to buy financial services, you really want to understand exactly what you're buying or planning for in the future.
James Deignan: My question to a lot of these retail banks is, how are you really communicating what you're going to provide in terms of a benefit if your end users can't understand what you're saying?
Jim Marous: On that topic, Jeff, we discussed a lot about physical disabilities up to now. As we become more digitally post-pandemic, there are user groups that we're cognizant of that have been impacted. In other words, there's a lot more older customers using digital technology that hadn't been used before. Also, maybe those with lower literacy. How have you addressed lower literacy areas and older customers as segments that you have to get better at communicating with?
Jeff Wissel: Well, Jim, this has actually been an area of focus for us for many years. Like many financial organizations, our client base skews towards the 60 and over segment. What complicates things, being a highly regulated industry, there's a lot of regulatory jargon that we're subject to, a lot of disclaimers, legalese, and so forth, which makes just inherently the content harder to describe. It's similar to the healthcare industry in that matter.
Jeff Wissel: Our corporate communications group and government relations has been working with our regulatory organizations to try to find ways to simplify some of the terminology. Our corporate communications team and our learning and development teams have been working on creating language that's clearer, more concise, definitely more inclusive in everything that we do, whether it be a newsletter, a website content. Like James mentioned, really trying to... How can we take a lot of critically important information...
Jeff Wissel: Finances are one of the most personal things that we all have to deal with in our lives. We need to make sure that all of our customers, regardless of age for that matter, can fully understand, comprehend, participate, know what decisions they're making and how that decision is going to impact their livelihood and so forth. Lots of focus on the content and also working with regulators and regulatory industries on this to see how we can make this different. The other thing I wanted to share too, it's also learning styles.
Jeff Wissel: One bit of content and one fashion, again, that one lens, doesn't fit for everyone. Can we do things like take a prospectus and almost make it like a podcast or have an Audible version of it? All these different ways of thinking about it because we all learn differently and we all comprehend differently. It's a multifaceted approach. It's a journey that I think we're all on as well.
Jim Marous: Well, I'll tell you what, this is a wide scope. I go back to the old days where people came into branch, picked up brochures. We didn't do very well back then. But with all these new ways to communicate, all these new channels, as you mentioned, Jeff, the different ways to use different channels to help address a need out there is enormous. James, with your engagement with clients at Texthelp, what are some of the some common challenges you see with organizations as they try to address this massive area of communication?
James Deignan: Well, there's a couple large challenges that face businesses across the board. I think it's knowledge and understanding of what the actual problem is. I don't want to call it ignorance, because I don't think that brands don't care. I think it's just not knowing often. By listening to discussions such as this, working with corrective technology that will...
James Deignan: Assistive technology that will correct some of these issues I think bring a lot of the information to the forefront, where companies maybe were slightly aware of it in the past, but weren't aware of the depth and the technical understanding that is needed within their own ecosystem or website. They don't know what those requirements are. I think that's one of the largest challenges is not knowing. I think sometimes it's also referred to and the definition is more encompassing is ableism.
James Deignan: And that us as a society, we often look at the general population. As Jeff had said before, 70% of disabilities are invisible. We make judgments just by visual inspection often. We can be way off. If businesses just take the opportunity to understand the requirements of customers and take the time to ask, it's often easier to really overcome those challenges.
Jim Marous: Jeff, it's interesting, we discussed today just a lot of information. Financial institutions have a lot on their table right now just to get through the regular day. When you look at accessibility and inclusion, this is a whole new level of intensity and impact that can be made. It's really hard to get a team behind all this, unless like at Fidelity, you have a team that actually does. But it's very clear that even at Fidelity, the importance of partners that are going down this process as specialists in the industry are pretty important.
Jim Marous: Would you agree that if an organization really wants to make an impact, wants to make it quickly, wants to make it effectively, and wants to not leave anything on the table, that it's important to partner with organizations that go down that path as part of their daily job, as opposed to trying to do it entirely internally?
Jeff Wissel: I would say in a lot of ways yes. I think one of the key things that any organization or corporation can do is to create a culture for the associates that empowers them to embrace, in this case, their disabilities as a strength and not a weakness. When that happens, and speaking from personal experience, when you embrace a disability as a strength, it's empowering. You start to bring your authentic self to work each and every day. A disability can create a diversity of thought that is so critical to, as I say, the proximity.
Jeff Wissel: Especially today, companies are agile, the agile business methodology. An average team size might be six to eight associates. If their six to eight associates aren't thinking about disability or use cases for vision, hearing, mobility, cognition, neurodiversity, all the different areas, it's going to be an inferior product or service. A big part of that is internal. A lot of it started and is enhanced through employee resource groups.
Jeff Wissel: But absolutely, partnering with other companies, other organizations, the disabilities communities, listening to podcasts, presenting on podcasts, finding information and building that network. No one has this figured out 100%, but all of us have pieces of the answer. And when we share best practices with each other, and I quote Microsoft Jenny Lay-Flurrie and Megan Lawrence all the time, they say, when one of us wins in this space, we all win. It is so true. We all win when...
Jeff Wissel: We're better together. Absolutely. Collaborating, sharing best practices, and making mistakes along the way is a critical part of the process as well. We have to test new things and listen to what customers and associates have to say with various lenses.
Jim Marous: It's interesting, Jeff, you make it very clear, especially at Fidelity and some of the other companies you mentioned. This is a cultural shift. This is not just a communications plan. This is not a project. This is not something that is simply an outward facing technology or outward facing mentality around what you do for customers. You've made it very clear throughout this entire podcast that this is really about a culture shift and embracing differences, diversity and accessibility for people internal, as well as external.
Jim Marous: It becomes a major cultural issue that helps the organization become stronger. Finally, if you both had one piece of advice to give our listeners who are keen to take on the action on accessibility, as difficult as it can be, what would your suggestions be where they start? I'm going to start with you, Jeff.
Jeff Wissel: I think James and I can probably talk on this for an hour each and not cover everything. I truly believe acknowledging that we are where we are in our companies and we're going to be on an accessibility journey that might be very young in its maturity in some aspects or other companies might be farther along. There's organizations out there. There's awards that you can participate in for accessibility, disability, inclusion, and so forth. When you see companies receiving 100% and you look at the surveys and you think, oh, what would we score? We're so far behind.
Jeff Wissel: Whatever the case is, starting today and looking for those resources, there's many organizations out there that help with this. They help to raise the level of conversation around accessibility and diversity and inclusion to the senior most levels. There are roadmaps out there. Find one of those roadmaps. Disability:IN is one organization that comes to mind. Start asking those questions with leadership. Everyone of us is a mentor and a mentee.
Jeff Wissel: At Fidelity, it really started organically, first through our employee resource group, and then we launched this Office of Customer Accessibility and a procurement accessibility program. It wasn't something from senior leadership on down. Every individual has the ability to impact change, and we have that ability to impact change today. Like running a marathon, it starts with that first step, but there's organizations and there's information out there to help get started.
Jim Marous: That's great. James, what's your take on where an organization should start?
James Deignan: Jeff said it pretty well. First and foremost, understanding that it's a journey and that it's not one size fits all, and that there's no silver bullet to accessibility. That it's going to be a work in progress and it's going to take hard work. In terms of how brands and what a business can do in terms of understanding their current ecosystem and what they can offer from a digital accessibility standpoint I think is acknowledging that disability and accessibility is about experience and perception.
James Deignan: And that it's in the eyes of the experience of the end user, and that often you might not be able to understand some of these challenges. And that you really need to ask not only your customers, but your internal employees as well. It seems that organizations such as Fidelity Investments are already making great strides at this. But as Jeff said, there's going to be organizations that are behind the curve.
James Deignan: I think being patient and working your way through is not only going to be better for your customers, but ultimately your brand in the long run, as all your content and everything will become not only more accessibility, but understandable by everyone involved.
Jim Marous: Gentlemen, I will tell you that one of the biggest benefits for this podcast for me on a very selfish basis is the education I receive. I have to admit, this is a big education for me on what's possible, what's being done out there, what isn't being done. I think this is a great example of an area that many times may not got prioritized, but is extraordinarily important not from a legal perspective, as much as from a cultural perspective.
Jim Marous: Jeff mentioned and you did too, James, that within the organization, employees will know if you're doing something to the community that's helping accessibility and diversity and beyond simply nice comments on those statement of condition or the quarterly review or annual review. I think it's important for people to understand there are companies out there that can help you in this journey, that can make this very big thing that you have to do become easier and break it into parts.
Jim Marous: Texthelp is certainly an organization that focuses on the technology needed to provide better accessibility and diversity in the marketplace. Also, if I'm not mistaken, James, you offer a way for organizations to reach out to you and actually have your website and digital presence reviewed with regard to accessibility. Correct?
James Deignan: That is correct. Yes. We're offering a free consultation for your website to understand what the current challenges you face from a web accessibility standpoint and also a readability standpoint. As I had said before, these are really important because in this case, ignorance isn't bliss. It really takes away from your customers, the community, everyone involved when the website is not accessible. Reach out to us.
James Deignan: We are happy to do a consultation of your site and put together a plan on what that journey might look like in terms of really enhancing your digital accessibility.
Jim Marous: Again, thank you to both of you for being on the show today. I really appreciate what you've discussed today. As I said, I got quite an education here and I'm sure our listeners did as well.
James Deignan: Thank you.
Jeff Wissel: Thank you, Jim.
Jim Marous: Thanks for listening Banking Transformed Solutions, a new banking podcast that focus on innovative solutions for financial institutions. We like to thank Texthelp for sponsoring this show. If you're a solution provider wanting to discuss how you can help bankers and credit unions solve a major marketplace challenge, drop me an email. We're keen to help. This has been a production of Evergreen Podcast. A special thank you to our producer Leah Longbrake, audio engineer Sean Rule-Hoffman, and video producer Will Pritts.
Jim Marous: I'm your host, Jim Marous. Until next time, remember, not everyone consumes content in the same way. Don't miss opportunities caused by misguided communication.