Biju Appachan

Stephen Dorsey:

Hello, welcome back to Black & White, a rallying place where we come together to learn and hold everyone gently to account, a podcast for the ally in all of us. I'm your host, Stephen Dorsey.

Black & White is recorded in Toronto, Canada, on the traditional territory of many nations; including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinaabeg, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wendat Peoples, and now, home to many diverse First Nations, intuit and Metis people.

My guest today is Biju Pappachan. Biju is the Executive Director of POV Film, which was founded in 2007, which offers a first point of entry for young creatives from traditionally underrepresented communities into the film, TV, and advertising industries.

Biju and I met last month at the alumni gathering of the Governor General's Canadian Leadership Conference hosted by 2022 alums. I'm an OG alum myself from 2008 conference, and we'll talk a little bit more about that.

We had a great chat at the time at the event, and a week later, the Biju invited me to a meeting at POV Film at the amazing Artscape Daniels Launchpad where we're sitting today in this recording studio. It's located in the Toronto Waterfront.

Through our tour and our discussion, I saw firsthand how young aspiring visual media professionals and audio media professionals are able to practice their trade, network with other emerging talent, incubate projects, and most importantly, network with industry people who can provide access to opportunity.

We'll get into all of that today and more with Biju. Biju, welcome to Black & White.

Biju Pappachan:

Wow, thank you. Thank you. I'm really, really happy to be here, Stephen.

Stephen Dorsey:

Awesome, awesome. I'm glad we can make this work. And I know the commute for you to get here was very long down the hallway.

Biju Pappachan:

That's right, yeah.

Stephen Dorsey:

So, thanks for being on time.

Biju Pappachan:

I had to take the subway and a couple street guards to get here, so-

Stephen Dorsey:

Amazing. I mean, by the way, I just wanted to touch, I believe you're the chair of the board and who actually help found this was Edie Weiss.

Biju Pappachan:

Edie Weiss. That's right, yeah.

Stephen Dorsey:

So, for those who are not in Toronto or Canada, Edie is essentially an icon and a force in the ad industry, marketing industry in Canada for more than 30 years. Someone I'd had the privilege to collaborate with more than a decade ago when I had my agency down in Portland with another partner.

So, not surprised that she's championing … my impression of her when I met her was how supportive she was of the industry and the people in it. So, great that she's part of this amazing program.

Biju Pappachan:

We're very lucky to have her. She's the head of the Radke Film Group, which is a very large and prominent commercial production company across Canada. And the access to networks and resources that she has, has been able to amplify the efforts that we've been able to put out in the last little while.

She was also recently inducted into the Marketing Hall of Fame.

Stephen Dorsey:

I saw that.

Biju Pappachan:

So, I just wanted to give her a congratulate shout out on that as well.

Stephen Dorsey:

A well-deserved congratulate. Like Radke, she told me the story of how she came to be the owner and the CEO all those years ago after an unfortunate — obviously, the original passed away, but Radke’s undisputedly one of the largest/one of the most respected production network of companies in Canada.

Biju Pappachan:

Absolutely.

Stephen Dorsey:

Alright. As I mentioned at the top here, we met at the Governor General's Canadian Leadership Conference, alumni cocktail party.

Biju Pappachan:

That's right.

Stephen Dorsey:

Which is great because what I like about these events is it brings the alumni. So, just to orient our audience as to what that conference is about, maybe I'll let you explain because you just participated this year in 2022. So, tell us a little bit more about what that is.

Biju Pappachan:

I'm the rookie, you're the OG, so I hope I can do it some justice here, Stephen.

Stephen Dorsey:

Exactly, go for it.

Biju Pappachan:

I think it's meant to bring together 250 leaders from across sectors, across the country, in order to be able to talk about the challenges that are facing Canadians today.

Oftentimes, I think we don't get a chance to have discussions with folks that don't necessarily share our views, and this platform really provides an opportunity for folks to come to be themselves in a safe environment, while also challenging each other's opinions about how communities exist across Canada, about how the economy functions across Canada, about what leads innovation in tech in Canada, and the type of connections and networks that we can create in order to be able to build sustainable partnerships that can put Canada in the forefront.

So, really exciting opportunity. You know, we were all given a study group as part of our training during those three weeks, I like to call. And the whole purpose of that was to give us an opportunity to learn from the people from the provinces that we visited, what their individual challenges were, instead of us making those assumptions about it, while also living and eating and playing like they do.

And it was just a really eye-opening experience. Now, the accommodations were at times a bit tough. I hadn't been out in a bunk bed in about a decade, and my legs were hanging out. But this was all part of that challenge that they put forward to push yourself outside of the comfort zone.

Stephen Dorsey:

Yeah, and so the conference is, I believe, it's pushing on close to 40 years. Traditionally, happened every four years. As you said, my year brought 275. They call it Emerging Leaders of Tomorrow to go into those communities.

I went to the Yukon, which was quite amazing. I I believe you went to Saskatchewan, right?

Stephen Dorsey:

Quebec City.

Stephen Dorsey:

You went to Quebec City, amazing.

Biju Pappachan:

Yes, which is beautiful.

Stephen Dorsey:

And our conference was about community and leadership. And I bring this up because it's going to lead into our conversation today. I was in the Yukon in 2008.

So, as you mentioned, you go — I think we spent 10 days in communities a lot within indigenous communities and talked about what was going on. Was at the same time as the apology that was happening from the government of Canada to indigenous people in regards to residential schools.

And I remember thinking, I'm not quite sure what they're talking about with the residential schools. And our plenary took off in Banff, was in Banff, Alberta. People who have ever been in the Rocky Mountains, it was beautiful.

And all these major speakers were invited to speak there. And one of them was the Chief of the Assembly of First Nations, who at the time, Phil Fontaine, and all of them were speaking to us about leadership. But Phil Fontaine in front of 300 of us said, “I'm not going to talk to you about that. I'm going to talk to you about my residential school story.”

And I'm going, “Okay.” And then he started telling us, and I'm not going to take the time, but it was a devastating testimonial to listen to. There was not a dry eye. And I actually, I had to leave the room and go outside in the cold air of Banff and collect myself with all these feelings of shame about the fact that I knew nothing about this, and that anger that my country that I love so much had done this, et cetera.

But the good thing is I got to talk to Phil Fontaine after, and I said to him how moved I was, and that now, that I knew I was going to do the work and learn and become more aware.

And then fast forward, and you know from our program, it's about what you're going to take from the conference and move forward. And all these years later, I wrote a book this year, as you know, Black & White, and it's informed by the learnings that I did and my perspectives of what change could look like for all people who have traditionally been marginalized in this country.

Biju Pappachan:

And I'm happy to say in my cohort, the Governor General is actually a woman from the indigenous communities, as you know, the Honorable Mary Simon, who had put a call out through this cohort of delegates to go out into these communities that we come from, and to really push that message, about doing the work for reconciliation, and not just making it a performative one.

But what does that mean as individuals in positions that are coming as leaders? What do we do in these leadership positions to ensure that these stories are being told? That the history that's been hidden for so long is being shared, and that we're learning from these messages so that this stuff doesn't happen again.

And so, really, a really powerful and as you know, a very long-term impactful experience.

Stephen Dorsey:

Amazing. And then because we're going to get into this with you about networks and access, but that conference is part of that.

Biju Pappachan:

That's right.

Stephen Dorsey:

Which is why we're actually here today because we met through that, and it expands our networks and connections. We have past alumni who were mayors and former actually political leaders and corporate leaders and so on. So, it's amazing.

And that's really going to be the crux of our conversation today because your personal background, which is what I want to talk about, and your family background, and then all the things that you've done and you have an impressive CV and you've really focused in terms of trying to make an impact in community in all the roles.

I went through your CV, working for CivicAction, which is an organization tied to the city of Toronto, the Canadian Center for Diversity, the Toronto District School Board, again, where you were focused on, on youth, the YMCA and today, POV Film.

So, when we're talking about leadership and what you're bringing forward into your current role, what drew you to this work? And I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I'm assuming your family and personal cultural background kind of informed the choices that you made along the way that brought you here.

So, maybe tell us a little bit more about that background and how it informed who you are today.

Biju Pappachan:

Yeah, maybe I could begin a little bit … I'm an immigrant that came into this country. I'm of Indian descent. I'm from a small state in India called Kerala. I’m a Malayali which again, is a member of the Indian community. But again, not a lot of people know who we are.

We're Christian, my parents were raised Christian, they raised me Christian. But I was born in a Muslim country with a very sort of Hindu culture. So, right from the onset of my birth into this planet, I think I was exposed to the diversity of religion, diversity of culture, and diversity of perspectives and views, which have continued to shape the kind of choices that I've made since I began.

As a young immigrant, when I moved here from the Middle East, we came from a very conservative community where Islam was the religion and we were not Muslim. And so, there was a lot of disparities that we faced as a result of being a minority community in a Muslim country as Christians.

So, fast forward, 13 years later, and now, we're in Canada, all of a sudden, we're Christians, but we're immigrants. We're in a community where racialized folks haven't been gaining as much momentum or success as we do see now, thank God. And it created this sense of identity crisis for me; what we at that time referred to as bilateral identities.

And I think as young people of color, and especially, as young immigrants, a lot of people probably can resonate with this message of being one way at home, being another way at school, and being another way with your friends. And having to sort of reconcile your identity during those times, especially as a young teenager, was very challenging.

And what I quickly found out is, there isn't a way to direct those energies and those thoughts, on those conversations to folks who've gone through those experiences, is very hard for those young kids to be able to relate to that.

And I didn't have anyone that I could relate to. At that time, I was very lucky to have a guidance counselor, a Dominican guidance counselor, Mr. Destiny, who's no longer with us, but he was very quick to remind me, “Look, you have this opportunity here. You have to make the most of this.”

And he was the one that directed me in a way where I felt like, okay, I have some level of accountability, some level of trust from somebody that's not my family or my friend who sees something more in me than what I see for myself. And that was the first time — and it's no coincidence that it was another immigrant that did that for me, where I started to realize there is a sort of bigger piece to success.

Because I think for me, as a young immigrant, I had four options: be a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, or an accountant. If I wasn't any of those things — film, TV, and charity work, are you kidding? This wasn't even in the perspective of my imagination.

So, having somebody like Mr. Destiny see that in me, kind of gave me a notion, “Hey, look, here's a guidance counselor. He's not a teacher or a doctor or a lawyer, engineer or an accountant. But he's making these really impactful changes in these young men and women's lives that he's been interacting with in his role as a guidance counselor.

So, that sort of tipped me into the world of social services and community work, because that was all very new to me. As you know, this isn't something that every country does. Usually, first world nations have the privilege of being able to do this type of work, and having resources committed to doing that work. And in Canada, I think there's over 1.2 million people across the country who work in nonprofits.

Stephen Dorsey:

Isn’t that amazing?

Biju Pappachan:

Incredible the amount of work and the diversity of efforts that go into making Canada what it is known around the world as.

So, what an exciting opportunity for me to jump into it. But I didn't get to it until much later. I went to school, finished school and kind of went into the typical corporate world, did a bit of work with a big brokerage company for a while, and did some analysis.

And I was doing some technical analysis for a big commodity straighter, predicting trends, forecasting trends of commodities, really exciting stuff.

Stephen Dorsey:

But I expect there's still the tempus within you (and I'm just speculating here), where corporate money, success that is traditionally seen as success versus this burning need to know that you can apply your brain and your passion to paving the way for others like you, but in a different way, in a more successful way.

Biju Pappachan:

And you’re very intuitive in picking that up. And I think when I looked for someone like that, that I could replicate, I couldn't find that person because again, everybody's idea of success was equated to those four professions that I mentioned earlier.

And so, while I was in this role, it really pushed me to a crux where I had to make a decision about what I wanted at a very young age. And at that time, I was fortunate enough to be able to live very minimally with very little.

And I felt this is a good opportunity for me to make that jump. And so, I moved from the corporate side into the sales side in the retail world, and that's when I really discovered that I love interacting with people; interacting with people from different backgrounds, from different classes, different economic systems, and just to see how they interact with the world also gave me a perspective that I hadn't had up until that point.

Because I’m from a lower middle-class family that struggled a lot. My parents' education wasn't recognized when they moved here. So, they had to begin from the beginning. They didn't have networks, they didn't have connections, they didn't have the access that was required for me to have any meaningful success.

Stephen Dorsey:

Well, the stories, in Toronto, I remember when I moved here in the nineties, and you experience it in other places as well, but getting and having an amazing conversation with a taxi driver. And I always ask where people are from, and they explain it.

And of course, I realized that there's probably much more to them. And they say, “Well, I'm an engineer back home. I was a doctor, I was a PhD in this.” And of course, we're making some promises to try and fix some of that credential stuff now. But the reality is these highly-educated, smart people have to make a living for their family.

Biju Pappachan:

That's right. And they have to lay the foundations on which … I'm not even first generation — where my kids can maybe benefit from. And when we think about the type of access that other groups have had in Canada and over generations, and then you try to compare your own success with theirs, it's an inequitable way to compare success.

But you don't have that knowledge because it's not something that young people are taught. Young people are taught, you both start evenly at the same place. And so, if you don't succeed, it's something that you didn't do right. And so, that's what I thought for a very long time.

Until I finally got this big interaction within the retail world where I was in sales and working with different people. And I remember this woman came to me, she wanted to buy something for her son, and I was just about to hit my sales targets for the month. And that came with a thousand dollars bonus, and that meant I met my monthly sales quotas, and all of these things.

And she came and said, “Look, I'm coming to you because my son is about your height and size, and I feel like you have some decent clothes here. Can you help me find something? I'm on a very strict budget.” And she was very kind of candid with me to say, “I can't afford anything more. So, like, please help me do it.”

But me, the sales guy wanted to close that sale and get that bonus. And so, I did. But what happened when I went home was, there was an emptiness that I felt for the first time. And I was doing well for that age. I think I was making decent money, my commissions were good, I was living downtown Toronto, like it was great.

But something then showed me that I sacrificed my values to make that sale. And that just came to me in a way where I almost saw my mom's face in that woman's face. And I saw someone else doing this to her, and I was like, “Well, I can't believe I'm doing that.”

But that's how we all end up getting pulled into it. Like we chase this success, we try to do good for our family, but are we thinking about who we hurt along the way to get it? Are we thinking about how we're benefiting as a result of all of the things that we've had as privileges that we're using to then, succeed, which is then taking away from somebody else?

Because the reality is capitalism equals … time equals labor. And your loss is my gain. That's just how capitalist societies work. So, for me, to succeed, someone has to lose. And that was something that I couldn't reconcile fully.

Stephen Dorsey:

But the positive side here is that you're having an epiphany around your conflict. And then you actually decide to do something about it.

Biju Pappachan:

Absolutely. And that was the day I quit my job, and started volunteering at the YMCA, actually. And I ended up at a newcomer center, which was helping newcomers that were coming into Canada, orient themselves with employment opportunities, social capital networks, connections, but also, for their kids to have a space to like meet other friends and meet other folks.

And I was just blown away by the fact that this job fit me to a T. This is exactly my experience up until that point. I have a lot of knowledge up until that point, because I had been in the country now for over a decade. I know exactly what these folks were going to go through.

Stephen Dorsey:

You had the lived experience.

Biju Pappachan:

I had the lived experience, and here's a chance for me to actually use something and do something for folks so that they didn't have to go through what my family and I did. And that began sort of this journey into the nonprofit side.

Now, I'll tell you, I think that job paid me $21,000 a year, which when I tell people now, they're like, “How did you survive?” And I don't know how I survived, but I loved … like I was volunteering. I was volunteering eight hours a day to the point where one of the managers in the office said, “You're here more than our staff. Like do you want a job here?”

Stephen Dorsey:

You actually got an increase of $21,000. See?

Biju Pappachan:

That's right. I was working for nothing. And I was like, “Okay, $21,000 in less than six months? Hey, this is pretty good.”

Stephen Dorsey:

There you go. That's a huge increase. Thank you for that. I think it's important that your story, because of the work that you're doing today. But essentially, you started the paid job at the YMCA, and I’ve noted that you've progressed. And really, it was always about community, it was always about making an impact.

And one of the things you and I have been talking a lot about since we met, was this whole notion of access. I think you must have said that 20 times during our conversation. And I said, I know what you're talking about because I've been talking about this with others, in regards to not only the need to create these pipelines of opportunity for people that come from traditionally underrepresented communities; black people, people of color, indigenous people, and others.

But it's the access to networks – and I was just talking to someone else about that, which is knowing people. I saw this stat the other day; 80% of people get jobs through a network; 80%. And I know. I think I've only applied to a few jobs in my whole life and gotten them.

I'm talking about when I needed to go apply for work – all the jobs I've been referred to, projects, clients, et cetera.

So, when we come back, I want to talk about access and what that really means, what is that and why it's important. And I want to talk about POV Film and how this entire program and talk about the program, and how it provides access to young people looking to get into the media business.

Biju Pappachan:

Looking forward to it.

[Music Playing]

Stephen Dorsey:

Welcome back to Black & White with my guest, Biju Pappachan here at POV Film. Biju, we're just getting into talking about access to opportunity and networks. And I know it's a major focus here at POV Film. We'll get into that.

I think this is an interesting topic because access to network specifically, we're talking about, these are intangible assets to build careers, livelihoods, social mobility, and future generations of wealth, which is the connections to the people who can offer internships and mentorships, and open the door, your first job — considering you for a raise or for the next stage in your career, or someone that has another opportunity, you're looking to pivot and go somewhere else.

And I know this is like really at the core of what you're doing at POV Film, but what I want to understand from you is, what are the realities, the historical realities in regards to access that you've experienced, that you've seen in the work that you do, and that made you want to lead here and change that?

Biju Pappachan:

Yeah, that's a big question. I'll try to answer that the best I can using some of my personal experiences.

A lot of it, I think, has to do with this notion that if you work hard, you're going to succeed. I think whenever someone doesn't succeed, the automatic thing that people tell them is, well, you're not trying hard enough or you're not doing the right thing.

And I think especially for folks that don't have that access to social capital, they think, yeah, I need to do something else. And oftentimes, they go out and make their own way of breaking in and succeeding.

And so, the further up you go, the less of us you see — and then you start to ask the question, well, if there's so many people at the beginning, why are only one or two making it all the way to the top? And then why did they then become the example of how the rest of that community needs to fight and struggle to get there?

Stephen Dorsey:

You made it.

Biju Pappachan:

You made it. Stephen, you made it, so we should all make it.

Stephen Dorsey:

You obviously worked hard.

Biju Pappachan:

And that’s not to take away effort and hard work that folks have put in. But I think it's too bad that we have to leave it up to luck and good fortune for us as BIPOC folks, but also, as other communities who are diverse and underrepresented to make it. It shouldn't come down to luck and opportunity, and being at the right place at the right time. How many times have we heard that phrase? It shouldn't come down to that.

So, I think for me, it was really from a very young age, evident that it wasn't just about hard work and I needed to kind of figure out how to get into the rooms where I wasn't in, or people like me weren't in. Because when I was like, hey, I want to become an executive director, I couldn't really look at anybody around me who was doing that, who looked like me, who came through, like especially an immigrant.

Like if there were folks there, their families have been here for multiple generations or they were born here, and so they had access to some of those networks, maybe not as much as others, but I had none of it. And so, it didn't just come down to good marks and high grades, all of that. It came down to the connections you had, the networks you had.

And so, I spent some time throughout my career building that and trying to understand it. I wasn't able to articulate it as well as I just did with you now. I've had some good fortune of doing some work on this and really trying to understand this issue.

But at that time, what I figured out was you needed to have other people kind of champion for you. You needed other people to open those doors for you if they needed to stick their foot in so that it could stay ajar and I could squeeze in, then you needed folks like that.

It didn't just come down … because I saw people around me who were at my level or less than my level in terms of skill and competency. And yet, they were progressing so much quicker and faster and gaining more money than I was. And that was the other thing that kind of made me ask this question, well, what is it that I'm doing that's stopping me?

So, there was clearly this invisible factor that was preventing. It wasn't just hard work and effort. And as I started talking about that to others, they started to relate and they're like, “Oh my God, yeah. And it just so happened, this happened, and it just so happened this person said this, and that's how I got this job.”

And I'm like, “This is so ambiguous. There's got to be more to career development and success than just a good person feeling fortunate one day to say, ‘You know what, Stephen? I'm going to help you out.’”

Stephen Dorsey:

Yeah. And in my book, Black & White, I mentioned I've had those people. I've had headwinds, but yeah, I’ve been lucky enough to also come across good people in the right situations at the right time, which I've sought out as well.

Biju Pappachan:

Yeah. I think that's how you build it.

Stephen Dorsey:

And also, I was prepared. I put in the hard work. As I say, I don't think I had worked twice as hard, but I definitely worked very hard to overcome … my thing was I never want to give them a reason to say no.

Biju Pappachan:

Exactly. Because if they said no to you, then everyone that looks like you, that comes after you, is also going to hear that.

Stephen Dorsey:

I didn't want “This document's not good enough, you didn't write this well enough.” Whatever it was, I just wanted them to … at the end, they would have to make a decision on the merit, even possibly, put aside their prejudice or their bias.

Biju Pappachan:

Absolutely. And I think being able to recognize that this is something that existed and prevented folks from moving ahead really made me want to ask this question. And in our work at POV, we're focused on trying to help young diverse talent from across the country break into TV, film, advertising, AR/VR gaming and the digital media worlds or what we call the wider creative sector.

And the creative sector, as you know very well, Stephen, is very exclusive. It's very gig-based. It's based on you're as good as your last job. If you're not part of those networks, you're not going to get in and it's going to be very hard for you to break in.

And so, we wanted to begin by asking the question, well, what is this ambiguous thing that everyone keeps talking about? The right networks, the right connection. There's always something, the “Here's how you approach, here's your five-second elevator pitch.” There's a whole bunch of industries that have been set up around this very notion of developing-

Stephen Dorsey:

Well, one industry, when I was living in Vancouver in my twenties and stuff, and the film industry was really taking off with Canal Films and I actually was in 21 Jump Street. I did a lot of extra work to pay my way through college and stuff.

But I know people that were getting it and just to get into the union where you have to actually get sponsored in. So, if you're coming from a community where people aren't traditionally working in that industry and aren't part of the union, how are you supposed to get sponsored in? So, I hear what you're saying.

Biju Pappachan:

And it's a challenge that I think people have figured out waist around, but not, it's not easily accessible for everybody. And so, we wanted to take a crack at figuring out what this thing is. We did some research. And this is by no means a term that we've coined; but we landed on this idea of social capital.

And what social capital looks like is, yes, it's networks, it's relationships, but it's also spaces that allow for any BIPOC folks to be able to enter and understand what is going on. There's a complexity of navigating careers that we are not … no one sits down and says, “Here's how you become a successful director. Like here's where you begin, here's where you go, here are the things that you do.”

Everyone just kind of does something. And then bam, now, they're this big famous film star, film director. Yes, there's hard work to it, but there's all these other intangibles.

Stephen Dorsey:

Well, it's interesting. I remember seeing the Steve Jobs story. Again, one of the smartest people around and stuff, but when you really start dissecting, you go, “Oh, he grew up in Southern California. His parents and stuff, they just live down the street from the Xerox or IBM labs?”

Biju Pappachan:

Yes, that's right.

Stephen Dorsey:

They had access to secondary computer parts, and blah, blah, blah — just keeps going.

Biju Pappachan:

Even simple things as the resources to be able to do what he wanted without worrying about, “Hey, where am I going to get food? Where am I going to live? Where are my clothes going to come from?” Just that alone-

Stephen Dorsey:

Yeah. Am I going to get shot on my way to my fancy high school?

Biju Pappachan:

Exactly. Would give you the freedom and the opportunity to explore. And more recently, and on the flip side of the Steve Jobs coin, look at what's happening with FTX and Sam Bank Friedman, and you know, how does a 30-year-old man like him get access to wealth in the billions, lose it all, and still sit there, not arrested, attending conferences. Now, imagine that was me or you, Stephen.

Stephen Dorsey:

There’d be a marine team landing in the Bahamas, extricating me.

Biju Pappachan:

We wouldn't be having this podcast, that's for sure.

Stephen Dorsey:

No, no.

Biju Pappachan:

I mean, that just amplifies to me how social capital — and his parents are both Princeton professors, lawyers at that. And so, you would think that this guy would know. But if you look at the rooms that he was in, if you look at the type of people that got behind him; we're talking about celebrities, but also congress folks.

He was there as a representative of the crypto sector, despite all of these other POCs that have been working in the space for a long time. He was in there making the rules, setting the … but that's the kind of thing that you can do when you have access. And that's what made me sort of ask this question as we did this research, what if we shifted this issue?

And I think for the longest time as society, we've done a good job of addressing the issue of diversity through the lens of representation, to say, you know what? We need to bring people into the space who are black and brown and indigenous and from other communities that are underserved, so that we can look more like how everybody else looks like.

That's great for the one or two people that get there. But the reality is the issue that is preventing diversity from thriving still exists. And that's access. So, what we're doing is flipping this problem and shifting it from problematizing diversity to problematizing access. It does one of two things.

One, when you say it's a diversity issue, you're putting the blame on individuals and organizations, and not many people like to be called out on these things, and it makes them less hesitant to want to do the work. And it's just a practical matter of how do we resolve this issue of diversity by recognizing the realities of what's on the ground.

I'm not talking about the advocacy and aspirational work that happens. There's definitely a lot of room and space for that. But when we move beyond it and we start to say, how do we now fix this issue? We needed to shift it from individuals to the system, organizations to the system.

And what that, again, the second thing that it does is, it shifts it from me to a system, and I'm much more willing to get behind fixing the system than fixing my company or fixing me as an individual even though those things are important.

So, by shifting it from problematizing diversity to problematizing access, what we now encourage is by increasing access, diversity becomes the outcome.

Stephen Dorsey:

And to me, this is key. So, actually, my last conversation I had, we talked about, I guess, two schools of thoughts.

“Ugh, it's so hard to change the system and I'm tired, and why do I have to do all the work?” And I get it. I'm tired too. But then they say … well, some people are saying, “Well, we should just start our own system from scratch and have our own system and build it all within our strong community,” which I think you need to have a strong community.

But I think the future is about the reforms of the systems, and how do we do that? And I think that's what you're suggesting, is that part of the answer is by changing access.

Biju Pappachan:

And we heard about it all throughout the last couple of years during the BLM Movement, the MeToo movement, the OscarsSoWhite Movement. We heard what happens when diversity isn't prioritized. We see it firsthand what happens when you don't address the issue of access.

And so, we need to come at it from a perspective that is a little bit more tangible from a day-to-day. But the real big picture piece here is how do we do advocacy work and do the problem-solving work? And can one entity, person, a group of individuals, can they do both of it?

Because how do you go into somebody and advocate while then still try to meet them where they're at and try to problem solve?

Stephen Dorsey:

If we're going to have change, systemic change, reform, we need everybody at the table. The white people in North America still hold most of the levers of power (that's the reality), but amongst that, there a, I would say a majority of white people who actually want to be part of the change.

But many are unaware of historical issues, some are unaware of current realities, and then there are some who are aware and are already on the path of learning and understanding truths, and wanting to be part of the reconciliation. So, there's so many different types of people.

But I think you need to have everybody at the table eventually, to try to reconcile around the realities, and then together, work on the reforms.

Biju Pappachan:

Absolutely. And how do we then build back better? We kept hearing that. Build back, and as all of this sort of slogans and phrases are fading into people's memories now because of other realities that we're currently facing — I just want to go back to reminding your audience and listeners that we did make a commitment to build back better.

And that's not throwing up a black square on Instagram. That is like you said, dismantling existing oppressive structures and colonial structures that have been built by colonizers in lands that even you and I are occupying outside of … we're not natives of this land. Like we have land to go to.

Putting that indigenous worldview and that framework into the new systems that we want to build will be a critical component of what it looks like to do this work in Canada.

Stephen Dorsey:

Absolutely. I've had the privilege to be … I spoke with Cassidy Caron, who's President of the National Council of Metis people. Manny Jules, who used to be the former Chief of the Tk'emlúps First Nation is now the Tax Commissioner for First Nations in Canada and others.

And we keep getting back to truth and reconciliation. And you can't get to reconciliation until you acknowledge the truths and come around the table to acknowledge them and recognize them, and then reconcile around those truths.

And if you can do that, then you can get to the change. So, it's a process that is going to take more time and energy and effort, but I think that's what we're talking about. So, I'm with you a hundred percent.

Let's go back where the rubber meets the road.

Biju Pappachan:

Yes, sir.

Stephen Dorsey:

We're here. So, tell me what happens here at POV Film specifically, and how are you doing the two things you're talking about? Actually, taking tangible steps forward to get to access and doing the advocacy at the same time.

Biju Pappachan:

Wonderful. And when I began at POV about five years ago, funnily enough, even the way I got that job was just another example of how social capital and networking comes into play.

My Board Chair and my former CEO both happened to own a cottage on a lake, and one was in the other having a campfire, and one told the other, “Hey, we're looking for a new Executive Director.” And the other said, “Have you thought about Biju?” And now, here I am. So, when we're talking about social capital networks, it really is this big critical piece.

At POV, our work is around championing diversity and inclusion in the creative sector. The way we do that is by collaboration. We partner with government, industry, unions. And again, by shifting the focus from these individual stakeholder groups, the system at large, we were able to come to sort of a consensus on the underlying issue of access.

And so, then we began the process of how do we increase access into the unions? So, for example, with one of the unions, we looked at their policies and recognized one of the bylaws says, you have to be a part of the union (as you mentioned earlier) to refer somebody into the union.

So, we said, “Look, if your union members are all from one group, let's say straight white men, it's most likely that their networks are going to probably reflect their own identities.” Like that's a pretty-

Stephen Dorsey:

It makes common sense.

Biju Pappachan:

Common sense. And if it requires you to get people from your communities into the union through referrals of people that are already in your union, then what exactly did you think was going to happen?

Stephen Dorsey:

Yes, exactly.

Biju Pappachan:

And it wasn't something anybody-

Stephen Dorsey:

Self-fulfilling prophecy.

Biju Pappachan:

That's right. And if you go even further back to the last pandemic when the Spanish flu hit and the theaters and film theaters were established, a lot of those went through the same thing that we did this year where everything shut down and certain people came in and consolidated and bought all these theaters.

And so, all of these groups of trades folks got together and said, we need to like protect ourselves so that we are getting equitable wages, et cetera. And these unions were created. And so, these policies were put into place to protect the folks who've been kept out.

Funnily enough, fast forward a hundred years later, these very same policies are keeping people out. So, hey, isn't this an opportunity for us to look at this and say, “Why don't we shift this issue and increase membership by providing access to talent who hasn't been in these programs?”

So, we built a training program where the hours that those young people do in our training program, counts towards hours to the union, and we give them direct opportunity into the apprenticeship program. We also remove any economic barriers folks may face.

Training to be a creative is expensive. Going to film school is expensive. Going to ad school, going to … I don't want to name any schools, but going to any of these training schools, it's expensive, and it's a gig-based industry.

So, you need the freedom of economic empowerment to be able to like actually do this job in this industry. So, that by itself, eliminates close to 80% of the Canadian population who are living paycheck to paycheck, who can't take that risk, who can't pay for their kids to go to a film school —— fail, try again, fail again, try again, fail again, and then finally find their break.

Because they need … like immigrants like me, our parents counted on me to have a second job after school so we can put food at the table. So, that was not an opportunity that was ever given to me. Not because I didn't want to, or not because I didn't think I'd be good at it, because I didn't know it was a viable path for me, an economically viable path-

Stephen Dorsey:

And also, your priority was to the family.

Biju Pappachan:

Absolutely.

Stephen Dorsey:

So, your programs here are fully funded?

Biju Pappachan:

They're fully funded. And this is where the government comes in and we say, look, there's a talent development shortage that's happening right now. There's a labor shortage in an industry that's booming.

During the pandemic, what was very clear was people love consuming content. And so, there's a real space here, I think, as Canadians for us to include a lot of diverse talent from across the country to be a part of that economic success. And that boom that we are facing, I think that was close to a 1.15 million square footage of studio space that was being built in Toronto alone.

Stephen Dorsey:

Yeah. Well, this is the thing. So, for those who are not in Canada; in the eighties, into the nineties, Vancouver basically became Hollywood North for filmmaking, television-making, huge amounts of investment, not only in infrastructure, but in talent, production talent where foreign film companies could come in and actually just hire the people locally.

Toronto was having the same thing, especially in commercial, and now, Toronto is essentially on fire.

Biju Pappachan:

Yeah. We have Netflix coming in, we have Unity coming in, I think Amazon's going to open up soon.

Stephen Dorsey:

It's like the amount of content, they’re being created in each city. And then there's the other part, which is content creators that can now, live remotely from our far north and all parts of Canada and the world.

Biju Pappachan:

The digital media side, the interactive digital media, AR/VR gaming, all of that is going to really open up, I think the way we even interact with it. We’re at the precipice of it.

So, what we've done in TV and film is partner with the government to say, look, there's an emerging opportunity for you to address this diversity issue using workforce development as the tool, and that'll actually contribute to economic development.

So, when I talk about practicality and problem solving in the type of systems change that I've been involved in in the past, well, this is the type of step that makes it sustainable. Because it's not just doing the good thing because of the moral imperative. You need to tie in the economic imperative to it as well.

And especially if you're going to engage systems level stakeholders, they need to know that it's going to be sustainable. And so, now, the unions have interest in wanting to contribute to this issue. Now, the government has interest in wanting to invest in this issue. The industry has a mandate and a priority because they're losing business to other cities around the world who've already got this figured out.

And Canadians are well far behind a lot of other countries. I'm ashamed to say the UK is so much farther when it comes to skills development in the screen industries than we are. The U.S., you know, Atlanta, LA, New York.

Stephen Dorsey:

And because also, there's a number of factors playing in. So, first, you have capacity; yeah, you can have Instagram, but you need actual people that are skilled at the level, especially as things start … VFX, all kinds of crazy filmmaking and content making. So, you have that. And a lot of these organizations are starting to make more of a commitment to diversity.

So, if you don't have diverse … I know some people, they were working on a film, which the subject matter is really at the center of the film, it's a black story and it basically was developed by a white person, and who is very talented also.

But they realize they need to be more diverse as a team to bring this project to fruition. But if there isn't that talent, what are you going to do?

Biju Pappachan:

And if you're a client, and if you're a company, and you want to penetrate into a new market, and you want to start to talk to the communities that live there, you want to make sure that the folks that are developing your campaigns and your marketing and your content look like the communities that you're serving. It's a very basic understanding.

And I think for the longest time, the industry was allowed to get away with it. Now, the clients are saying, “If you can't do it, we'll just go somewhere else.”

Stephen Dorsey:

I was speaking to a very successful advertising agency, and I did a speaking engagement with them, amazing people, super talented. And they asked a lot of great questions. And one of the things that everyone could say when you're looking at television, especially here in Canada, is that you go, “Oh, that ad’s …” all the ads are coming up, you go, “Wow, that's a black man and an Asian woman and biracial kids.”

And the next ad, it's two women, LGBTQ community and adopted children because one's black, whatever. You're visually seeing it. And I guess they were asking what I thought about that.

I said, well, it's good. I can see it's more diverse. But I said, I think we need to go a little further than that. I think when a client and an ad agency are working together and they want to embrace diversity inclusion, they actually have to engage the communities to understand it authentically.

Biju Pappachan:

That's right. And not just in front of the camera, Stephen.

Stephen Dorsey:

No, exactly.

Biju Pappachan:

Also, behind the camera. And to build on the example that you brought about a white creative talking about black narratives; there's so much harm that can happen from that because of a lack of lived experience and connection that that white artist may not have like a black artist would from a similar community.

And if you look at how this then amplifies across our country in terms of forming opinions about community groups — and we think about why does the public at large think about groups this way? Why do they see black and indigenous communities as less than, and not as good enough or as resilient as the white population.

Stephen Dorsey:

Yeah, and this is what I say to people. It might not even be intentional if you don't know. And of course, there’re talented directors and cinemaphotographer … it's not about their level of talent. It's about taking the time to really understand. And that's where the inclusive part comes in. It's not just being there, you need to be inclusive of understanding.

Biju Pappachan:

I'll push it a bit further and say, inclusion is inviting somebody to the dance. Inclusivity is asking them their song and playing it at the dance. And I think we've done a good job of including, so we invite people to these conversations, but their opinions don't form any of the policy or systems design work that's currently happening. So, it becomes a performative thing.

It becomes, everybody comes into the room to dance, but all of the people that were invited are on one side and all the people that weren't, are on the other side. That's not inclusion. Sure, they're “included,” but that's not inclusion-

Stephen Dorsey:

Those were the dances I went to in grade five.

Biju Pappachan:

That’s right. Oh, those were fun ones.

Stephen Dorsey:

But I actually went over there to the other side.

Biju Pappachan:

And I think that's what some of the BIPOC folks do, some of the diverse folks do. Like you can I can tell we're very social. We’re not going to let somebody's discrimination stop us from moving forward. But why should that be expected out of everybody? Not everybody's a Stephen or a Biju.

Stephen Dorsey:

No, exactly. That's-

Biju Pappachan:

And it shouldn't matter to be honest. It should be that if you are wanting to succeed, it should just come down to merit, like you began this conversation with. It should come down to merit. It shouldn't come down to this idea that I need to do this or that and do extra stuff on the background, because then, it leads to things that we saw over the last couple of years.

Especially now when there's such a disparity of views and opinions about folks and people, everyone is just taking the red flag or the blue flag now. It's just like we're getting to the point where conversation isn't even occurring.

So, it's important that narratives that are being told about communities come from those communities because that's what then helps to inform the wide mass and the wide population's understanding of those communities. So, it's a really crucial part.

I was at a roundtable with Heritage Canada a few weeks ago, and they're beginning this fund called Changing Narratives with that intention. Like it's a small drop in the bucket. But even if you look at the cultural funding that goes out, like most of that funding goes to ballets and operas, and the theater.

And these aren't spaces that are occupied or where BICOP folks necessarily are thriving. Where they are thriving is things like music and film, and yet, they get the least amount of investment. So, it's a systems change that we need to make because we contributed massively to the GDP, the film industry last year. We're talking billions of dollars.

Stephen Dorsey:

Yeah, of course.

Biju Pappachan:

But who's benefiting from that? And it's not the communities where those films are made. It's not the communities where that money's going. So, we have an opportunity, I think, to connect some of the dots.

And at POV, we're doing that. We're saying, let's bring the government, let's bring the industry, let's bring the community folks and build training programs. Not just because it's the right thing to do, but it is the economically imperative thing to do to make the industry competitive.

But also, it gives young people the opportunity not to feel like they're this sorry case. “Oh, poor Biju, let me give him a chance. It's, “Whoa, Biju has an amazing talent. All I needed to do was give him some opportunities to like stretch his creative muscles and bam, he's on his way.”

Stephen Dorsey:

Amazing. Well, it's interesting. I usually leave the last word and ask if you're hopeful, but I think you just answered it.

Biju Pappachan:

Yes, you’re right. I am almost to a fault, I'm hopeful, Stephen.

Stephen Dorsey:

Well, I hear it and I feel the passion and I'm excited for you. I'm excited for POV Film. I'm excited for the young people that you're supporting. So, hey Biju, thank you so much.

Biju Pappachan:

Stephen, thank you.

Stephen Dorsey:

I look forward to many more conversations on and offline. So, thank you to my guest, Biju.

Biju Pappachan:

Congratulations on this amazing podcast. Really, really happy to be here, thank you.

Stephen Dorsey:

Thank you.

[Music Playing]

Thanks everyone for listening to Black & White. If you've enjoyed today's conversation, please be sure to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app and take the time to rate our show.

Black & White is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. Special thanks to my producer, sound designer and engineer extraordinaire, Noah Foutz, and our executive producer, David Allen Moss. We also had a guest engineer, Slim, big shout out here in Toronto

A reminder that my book, Black and White: An Intimate, Multicultural Perspective on "White Advantage" and the Paths to Change is available at your favorite bookstores across the U.S. and Canada, and online at Amazon and Indigo Chapters.

You can find me on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn, or visit my website at stephendorsey.com. I'm Stephen Dorsey, reminding all of us that we can all be better, do better, so that eventually, we can all live better together.