White Advantage,
Systemic Inequality,
and the Paths to Change
Stephen Dorsey delves deeper into racial discourse through conversations with insightful guests who have their own take on what’s at play. Because it’s time to Be Better, Do Better, Live Better, Together. Presented by Flatiron Wealth Management.
Dr. Mayann Francis
| S:2 E:10On this season finale of Season 2 of Black & White, we're honored to share Stephen's conversation with Dr. Mayann Francis, the first Black, female Lieutenant Governor of Nova Scotia. Dr. Francis has spent a lifetime challenging the racial and gender barriers challenging Canadians today, as a human rights advocate, and published her memoir Mayann Francis: An Honourable Life in 2019.
She and Stephen speak about her upbringing in Whitney Pier, her relationship with the late Queen Elizabeth and her time as Lieutenant Governor, Viola Desmond, and much more.
To learn more about Dr. Francis and her memoir, click here
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Special thanks to our Producer, Composer and Sound Designer Noah Foutz, Audio Engineer Gray Sienna Longfellow, and Executive Producers Gerardo Orlando and David Allen Moss.
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Stephen Dorsey:
Hello, welcome back to Black & White, a rallying place where we come together to learn and hold everyone gently to account, a podcast for the ally in all of us. I'm your host, Stephen Dorsey.
Black & White is recorded in Toronto, Canada, on the traditional territory of many nations, including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinaabe, the Chippewa, and the Haudenosaunee, and the Wendat peoples. And now home to many diverse First Nations, Inuit and Metis people.
My guest today is a true Canadian pioneer, the honorable Dr. Mayann Francis, the first black Nova Scotian, and only second woman to be appointed lieutenant governor in Nova Scotia's 400 year history.
Dr. Francis was born and raised in Whitney Pier in Sydney, Nova Scotia of Antigen and Cuban descent. She graduated from St. Mary's University and began her career with the Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission in 1972.
Dr. Francis has received so many prestigious awards that it would truly take me most of this episode to go through them, but I'll note a few here.
She has her honorary degrees from Mount Saint Vincent University, St. Mary's University, York University in Ontario, and Dalhousie University.
She received medals for Queen Elizabeth's Gold, Silver, and Platinum Jubilee, and the BBPA Harry Jerome Award for Professional Excellence.
Dr. Francis memoir titled Mayann Francis: An Honorable Life was published in 2019 by Nimbus Publishing, just happened to be the publishing house that published my book, Black and White.
Again, I've only touched the tip of the iceberg of the amazing record of accomplishments. And so, please let's welcome the honorable Dr. Mayann Francis.
Mayann Francis:
Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be with you today.
Stephen Dorsey:
Thank you so much for making the time. I know you're very busy. And by the way, happy Black History Month. We are in February.
Mayann Francis:
Yes, we are. Happy Black History Month to you as well.
Stephen Dorsey:
Yes. And I've been somewhat busy here in Ontario spreading the word about the importance of black history. I'm sure it's been a busy month for you so far. What have you been up to?
Mayann Francis:
So far, I have been I wouldn't say as busy as I normally am when it comes to Black History Month, and I'll tell you the reason why. Because I have to make major decisions about my history, and it was interesting because my thinking about my history and my success was very, very interesting. I've been thinking about it for several months and it hit this month even more.
So yes, I have done a few things here, but my thinking was always about, I have to do this because I want people 20, 30, 40, 50 years from now to be able to look at what did she do, why she was successful, especially during a time when racism and discrimination is alive and well. And it will still be alive and well.
So, the reason why I feel it's important to make sure there's a legacy about me, it's important because I want it to inspire people, especially black people, but people of all colors, all background to look and hear and read about what I did and how I became successful and how I manage it through this whole time.
And why I said it was interesting how I've been thinking about it for several months because since 2020, I wanted it to be done, and I've been so busy, I have not been able to reflect on it and do it because it's a lot of work.
But it was interesting when I saw the theme for this month here in Nova Scotia was all about our history and generations. And I said, “This is why I need to do it.”
So, this has been a very interesting, exciting month, and I've made some decisions already, which are very, very important, which I will not talk about right now. But my goal is to try to have the legacy all written up and given out to places hopefully by the end of the year.
Stephen Dorsey:
Well, I know it's a tremendous amount of work because you've had such a career, and we're going to touch on that today.
Interesting enough, I've had many conversations, especially over the last few weeks for some reason, specifically about black history. And one of the things, as you know, Dr. Francis, is that here in Ontario, for example, black history, which is 400 years of Canadian history on this territory is still mandated as part of the education curriculum in Ontario. Can you believe that?
Mayann Francis:
Mm-Hmm (affirmative).
Stephen Dorsey:
And I remember saying to people, “I've had several conversations with Dr. Francis offline, Senator Donald Oliver,” which will touch on a little bit. And I said, “How do I not know these people from history books, from recent history books?”
Mayann Francis:
Right.
Stephen Dorsey:
So, I think the work you're doing is really important and we'll get into that a little bit more during our conversation today.
Maybe we can just take a minute and you can tell me, obviously Queen Elizabeth passed away last year, and obviously you were her representative in Canada. Maybe just a few words of your thoughts of maybe a personal recollection. And also, what you believe her everlasting legacy will be for the world and for Canada particularly as part of the Commonwealth.
Mayann Francis:
Well, Queen Elizabeth will always be in my heart, always. And when I was asked to be the lieutenant governor, I was very nervous about the question because I said, “I'm a black person, who's going to accept that in Nova Scotia if I say yes?”
But in any event, in 48 hours, I gave my answer as yes. And it's interesting and I'm so happy that I did, because, let me just go backwards a little bit because when we talk about history, my parents were strong supporters of royalty.
And before her majesty became queen, my parents were invited to meet her when she was visiting Cape Breton, and they were there to be at the hotel where she was a guest.
And also, what I remember is I was about, I don't know, five or six at the time, or maybe seven-years-old, but in any event, when both her and her husband were driving up the street towards where they were going, he was on the side of where I was standing, and he waved.
And then all of a sudden, she leaned over from the other side and she waved and I said, “She waved at me.” But anyhow.
Plus, my middle name is Elizabeth and my sister's middle name is Victoria. So, that demonstrated my appearance dedication to royalty.
I felt that I had a very good relationship with her Majesty. When I met her for the first time in 2007, because all lieutenant governors, and I'm pretty certain governor generals as well, must meet her. And so, just meeting her in England I brought my sister with me and just to have a conversation with her and was like, “Oh, my gosh, I can't believe I'm standing here. I can't believe I'm talking to her.”
Stephen Dorsey:
Exactly. Must be surreal in many ways. Right?
Mayann Francis:
It was so respectful. And then her last trip to Nova Scotia, her last time was in 2010. And here I was still lieutenant governor and once again, had my relationship with her, intelligent woman, caring person, so smart.
And I felt great, and I kept thanking God for this opportunity to be with her again. And it gave you learning because this was somebody, she had the greatest respect for all sorts of people, regardless of color. She spent time with the indigenous groups of people. She was at the military, she was everywhere, youth, schools, people just love her.
And she is somebody who is a very dignified person. She's an objective person, but she's a kind, wonderful, intelligent woman.
Stephen Dorsey:
Obviously, her reign was so long, and she was part of history, so many moments in history. But what do you think her legacy going forward, what do you think that she'll be remembered for from your perspective?
Mayann Francis:
From my perspective, she'll be remembered for, first of all, her intelligence, her dignity, her objectivity, her caring, her love for people. And she was somebody who just demonstrated she cared for everyone. And that's what I really liked about her.
And you think of the example when her daughter-in-law was killed in the car accident. The queen bowed when the casket was passing her by. And that wasn't something that anybody would expect, but she did.
And that's why I love her because I said, that just goes to show, she'll show you when I was wrong. And that's what she did and-
Stephen Dorsey:
Interesting.
Mayann Francis:
And she just keeps her dignity because remember she wasn't saying much or wasn't around when — she just stayed in the back, but she was with the grandchildren at the time. But then she came because when she heard all the public complaints and everything else about it, she stepped forward. And it was with such dignity that she did it and shown her love for the loss of the young lady.
Stephen Dorsey:
Well, I think, I remember that moment and I thought it was a big moment.
Mayann Francis:
Absolutely.
Stephen Dorsey:
So, thanks for sharing with that. You've written and spoken a lot about Whitney Pier, the small town where you grew up in Nova Scotia. And you talk about how multicultural it was, the community made up of people from all over the world and cultural backgrounds.
And really, you talk about in your memoir that you didn't really feel that different being black in that community, which I found kind of surprising. Maybe you can share a little bit more with us about that community where you grew up and why it was so special.
Mayann Francis:
Right. Well, I'm glad you mentioned it and ask it, and I keep saying, I'm not saying that we were perfect. I'm not saying that at all. I'm not saying that there weren't some ooh, little things somebody might have said, called me a name or whatever. Yeah, I'm not saying that.
But what I am saying is that in that community where there are people from all over the world, from Ukraine, from England, from Ireland, from Indonesia or maybe one person there from Russia. There are people from all over, and the Caribbean and other parts that I'm not even mentioning, not that I don't want to mention it, but there was just all of us, all over the world.
And in areas we just cared about one another. It didn't matter if your skin was white or black or brown, we just cared about one another, either with food or with clothing, or just with chatting, whatever it was. But everybody stressed education. Everyone stressed education.
Yes, there were some challenges there, but I never ever felt that I was not going to be accepted as a black person. And yes, whenever we went maybe over town, we always call that over town. We realized that, “Oh, we're poor and we're different.”
But when I left the Pier to study to be an X-ray technologist in Halifax, and let me tell you, just getting up there, I realized, “Oh, my gosh, I'm treated differently.”
Stephen Dorsey:
So, this is really interesting because you and I have a parallel experience. When I was a little kid growing up in the suburbs of Montreal, I was just little Stephen having fun and having friends. But it was other people that started, as your world became more than the corner of the street where you are from-
Mayann Francis:
That's right.
Stephen Dorsey:
You started feeling that wow, there is something. And I got older and realized it. But one of the things you talk for those obviously not as familiar with Nova Scotia, when Dr. Francis says, “Going into town,” she means Halifax.
And you actually moved there in the 1960s to go to school and you detail in your memoir about trying to rent an apartment.
And so, this is the 60s and another interesting parallel for us, an experience I had in Montreal in 1991, and moving and trying to rent an apartment with my then girlfriend who was white and it was the old days, you circled the ads in the paper, and then you called, and you made an appointment and we made like 12, 14 apartments. And by the time we got there, they were all rented. When they saw-
So, please share your experience, which it happened in the 60s, that's almost 30 years before. But it's funny how things didn't change, but what was your experience like and how did that make you feel? All of a sudden, your differentness, your blackness really started to cause some challenges.
Mayann Francis:
But you know what? Why I always talk about being raised in Whitney Pier, because it gave me a foundation to know that I was important. You understand what I'm saying?
Stephen Dorsey:
Yes.
Mayann Francis:
So, even though I face racism and still do in different parts, the foundation kept me strong. I still love myself based on how I was raised and some of the teachings that I learned in Whitney Pier, I never felt discouraged about going far and being successful. It didn't bother me.
But yeah, did I become annoyed? Absolutely and I said, “I'm going to fight this.” But here it is, you see an ad in the newspaper, you say, “Oh, I'm going to get that apartment.” And you go there, it's gone. “Well, what do you mean it's gone? I just called you.” “Oh, no, no. Somebody did and …
That type of line. Then when I started working at the Human Rights Commission, then we started plans to really get and sue these places who were lying like that. And when I worked first at Human Rights Commission as a human rights officer under George McCurdy, the late George McCurdy, who was an absolute leader in terms of having a very strong human rights commission. And that's what he did. He's a perfect example.
And I wish someday that people start talking about him, about his history. Because he was actually out of Ontario, but he was in Nova Scotia, head of the Human Rights Commission. And if it wasn't for him, that also gave me another aspect of success in looking at human rights and the analysis, because I call him my mentorship as he was a part of my mentorship as well, in terms of working on human rights matters.
Stephen Dorsey:
You said it takes work to not have your spirit broken. Courage, love of self, confidence in my abilities. I know, obviously from having read your memoir, that part of that is rooted in family. Part of that is rooted in your spiritual beliefs.
For those who have also faced adversity and anti-black racism, and we're talking about the 1960s, a very different time than today, but some things are the same. Is that just something that was inside you or it was modeled to you? How did you have that strength within you?
Mayann Francis:
I would say the strength within me was there for my faith in God. My father was the clergy of the African Orthodox Church and my mom obviously was a very active member in the church as well. And we would have church in the morning, Sunday school, church at night.
So, that was it, all Sundays. And for me, that was just life. That was the meaning of life. And I always prayed, and I still do pray, and when anything negative that happened to me, I just automatically pray.
And so, that came as a result of my growing up with a father who was a clergy. I never looked back. And I'm not going to say that I was perfect. I did some things that should not have been done, but in terms of self, it was my faith in God. That's what kept me going.
And that's what kept me to fight any type of discrimination. Because even today the challenges are still there, but they might even be greater. And I tell people, you have to have your faith in yourself too.
Stephen Dorsey:
We're going to take a little break, but when we come back, I'd like you to share with us some of the important people who positively impacted your life along your journey. And we're also going to touch on how you paid that forward as a mentor and role model to others. So, we'll be right back with Black & White.
[Music Playing]
Welcome back to Black & White, with my final guest of season two, the honorable Dr. Mayann Francis, the 31st lieutenant governor of Nova Scotia. I always have to catch myself, lieutenant/lieutenant, but I've heard you say lieutenant, so that's going to be the way I say it for the rest of my life.
Dr. Francis, just before we went to the break, we were talking about role models and mentors, inspiring youth, and I know you had incredible people that supported you along the way.
In my book, I talk about headwinds that I faced throughout my career. Some people say they had to work twice as hard and like I say, I'm not sure if that's — but I definitely had some headwinds, which added to the challenges of trying to succeed.
And I know that you had them and you handled them with grace. You share stories about the good people who supported you, encouraged you in your personal and professional career, including non-black people.
So, maybe you could share a couple stories with us or a story of someone that really had an impact on you and helped push you along or encouraged you at the right time in your life.
Mayann Francis:
If we had about another 20 hours, there's so many things that I would want to talk about. So, I'm quickly going to start thinking about some folks and I'm going to talk to you about when I received my bachelor's degree.
My bachelor's degree was paid for by a white person. And that person was from Nova Scotia in Cape Breton. And I'm going to tell you why I want to share that story with you.
When I finished off being an X-ray technologist, after I was working at that and I loved it, and then I said, I really want to go to university. And when I mentioned to my family, my mom and dad, I said, I don't know about the money. I'm going to get a loan. And daddy said, “Yes, get a loan and it will be great for you to go to university, et cetera.”
So, just by chance, when he was talking to a very wealthy person in Cape Breton, who was a very dignified man, and he just said to my father, “Do you know anybody who I can help go to university?” And my father just said, “Pardon?” It was just out of the blue.
But it wasn't only me, this person was also providing funding for other people whether they were indigenous, whether they were brown, whether they were white, whatever. The bottom line is this person, his only thing he said is that nobody was mentioned my name. And I still to this day have never talked about him, paid everything, every single thing. And so, that person I give my credit to for my first degree.
Stephen Dorsey:
What a great story. And-
Mayann Francis:
Isn't that something? Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
Stephen Dorsey:
White people in Canada are asking how they can be allies, how they can bring about change and take some action.
But it just goes to show you who would've … this gentleman who couldn't have predicted who you would become, but provided you the entry into higher education, which created a foundation for your future success, all the way up to a regal position, which is in Canada that very few people attained. What an amazing story.
Mayann Francis:
Yep. And I did find his son maybe about 10 years ago. And the son said, “Remember, you're not supposed to tell, my dad.” I said, “No, no, I'm not going to.”
But he said, “But I followed you.” And he said, “You became lieutenant governor.” And you know what I'm saying? So, that to me is like a lot of credit to the father and to the man who was very nice. I only met him maybe a couple of times, but he was very close to many people in the community. And I always say again, that's God's blessing.
I also looked at our history a long time ago. I'm looking at Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, those are the people that I looked and read about what they're doing.
And then I also had people in Whitney Pier who've been very successful. We're talking about Clotilda Yakimchuk, we're talking about Campy Crawford, we're talking about Tom Miller. These were all black people who've been so successful. And so, just watching and observing.
And then a very close friend of mine, late Beverly Mascoll, as I say her name, I know people in Ontario will know about her. And she was also a very close friend and a mentor. Very close and a mentor.
And she's the one when we were chatting one time and she was saying how she was influenced by reading and knowing about Viola Desmond. And I looked at her and I said, “Who's Viola Desmond?” And she looked at me and said, “Excuse me?” And then she educated me. So, can you imagine that's the negativity of history not being taught.
Stephen Dorsey:
Exactly. Well, this is part of what we were talking earlier, and I've been having this conversation. Let's talk about Viola Desmond, because there's, again, a full circle story that has you in it.
So, I'm just going to orient our audience for those who don't know. Viola Desmond was/is considered one of the biggest activists really in the black community, all the way back to the 1940s. And she was a entrepreneur in the beauty business.
And an incident happened where she went to a movie theater, and she was told that she couldn't sit in an area that was designated for white people. This is Canada. In my book, I talk about this mythology of race that many Canadians live in, which is, well we didn't have slavery or segregation, it happened all here in Canada.
And anyways, she was arrested for this move. And I believe fined. And I'd let you tell a little bit of that story.
And then all these years later, more than 50 years, more than that, 70 years later, you as lieutenant governor of Nova Scotia were able to provide her a free pardon.
So, maybe tell us a little bit about that story from your perspective. Who Viola Desmond was just briefly, and what she means to the black community and what she should mean to Canadians and why you took this action seven decades later to rectify her run.
Mayann Francis:
She has a big history, but wasn't told. Now it is. But she was on her way in 1946 to Cape Breton to expand her beauty business. And even before she became somebody in the beauty business. She was also a school teacher. And even during the days of discrimination, she had to study to be a teacher by reading and by doing it online.
Not online, I call it online now, but there was no online then. But she had to be doing reading. And so, but then she wrote a provincial test and she passed and she was teaching in Preston area and so forth.
But anyway, she became influenced, she was influenced by the successful black businesswoman in the United States. And in any event, she decided I want to do something like that. And that's what she did.
So, her career in Halifax in terms of the beauty business, was excellent. She had a school, she had various areas within the beauty business. She made makeup and everything, so it wasn't just about her doing people's here and everything. So, she was smart.
So, on her way to Cape Breton, her car broke down in New Glasgow. And when she took it to get it fixed, they said, “Oh, we're going to have to keep it for a couple of hours and so forth.” She decided to go to a movie theater. She goes into movie theater because she had poor eyesight. She decided to sit close to the screen and they told her, “You can't stay here because you have to sit upstairs.” And she said, “No, I want to sit down here.”
“Well, you have to pay extra.” “Well, here's my money.” And the extra was one penny. They wouldn't accept it.
So anyway, they called, had her arrested, she was dragged out, thrown into jail, and she was also injured.
So, the bottom line is she was convicted for defrauding the government of one penny, which was wrong because they wouldn't accept her money. And I'm just giving — people can do more research on this, but I'm just-
Stephen Dorsey:
Sure, sure.
Mayann Francis:
Giving you a little summary of that.
Stephen Dorsey:
Yes.
Mayann Francis:
So, in any event, she went back to Halifax. She did not continue on to Cape Breton. And maybe within about a year or so, she decided to stop, and she moved off to the United States, took a course in Montreal, and then moved off to United States to start something different. Very intelligent woman.
And her sister Wanda fought for her after her death and unfortunately she died young, as far as I'm concerned, her early 50s. And I would say what she went through had an impact I think, on not only her mental health, but physical health.
Because when I said to her sister Wanda, “Why did she not keep expanding her business?” And her sister said, “She was tired.”
So, you think about that, there's a lot of research about the effect of discrimination and racism on people. And it talks about the psychological effect. I'm not saying that's what happened to Viola, but it's a possibility. We don't know that. Because when she died at the age of 50 or 51 with some internal problems that she had, and her body was found in the apartment in New York.
But her sister, Wanda, even at this stage in life, and Wanda unfortunately died last year, she insisted on the government to free her sister because she was convicted for something she did not do.
And so, in any event, when the new government came in, when I was lieutenant governor in 2010, NDP Government, they did accept and decide, “Yes, this is what we need to do.” And a high recommendation to me as lieutenant governor because the only person that can give free pardon is royalty or royalty’s representative. And at that time, I was the rep.
So, the royal prerogative of mercy was granted to her on April 15th, 2010. And as a result of that freedom during the speech I gave, I knew that this was going to be her name, her history, her people debating and understanding who she was. It's going to be gone forever. And here we are, she's on our $10 bill.
Stephen Dorsey:
Exactly.
Mayann Francis:
There's some streets named after her. There's some schools named after her. There's many monuments, there's scholarships and so forth. And you know what, that's going to go on and on and on because of knowing who this person was and also the effect that racism had on her and on our communities, our country, and our world. And that's important. Yeah.
Stephen Dorsey:
It's such a great story, again, that took a lot of effort to have it put into the public domain, if you will. Broadly for Canadians. Every time someone goes to pay with a $10 bill, they see her and tell her story.
Mayann Francis:
Exactly.
Stephen Dorsey:
But she is just the tip of the spear, if you will, because there's so many other people that have not been celebrated who should.
And just as a final point, it must be so incredibly humbling and satisfying that you as a black woman, a Canadian black woman, you were the one that was able to make this happen because of your achievement in ascending and reaching this post. That must have hit you.
Mayann Francis:
Well, it did. And again, for me in my faith, I said there's a message here, God's message, that I would happen to be the lieutenant governor at the time to be granting freedom for a black woman who was innocently put in jail because she was black.
And so, that's gives a big story and a big history of things. And so, when you look at it and say, “She happened to be the lieutenant governor at the time,” and don't forget, Viola was on her way to Cape Breton. And I'm sure she would've ended up in the Pier.
Stephen Dorsey:
There you go. There you go.
Mayann Francis:
And so, when I look at it like that and say, “Okay, there's a strong message in here and I will always be connected to Viola now until forever, even when I leave this earth.” The connection, “Well, who freed her?” “Well, it was Mayann Francis,” that type of thing, that will be there and that's going to stay forever as well, when I get it done.
Stephen Dorsey:
I want to pick up on something you just mentioned about Viola Desmond, which was she's an entrepreneur and as you know, Dr. Francis, there are still some Canadians and I would say even some government leaders that continue to push back on the existence of systemic racism and inequality in this country.
And they point to accomplished black people like yourself, Senator Don Oliver, Wes Hall of Kingsdale Advisor, who's also on the Dragons Den, as examples of how hard work pays off for black people, for those that choose to pull themselves up from their bootstrap. That saying is a little bit offensive in many different ways, but I'm not going to delve too much into that.
But as we know, these often cited examples of black success in Canada are more unfortunately exceptions rather than a general pattern. Because we know that there's … for those who don't know these figures, but black people in Canada make up about three and a half percent of the Canadian population, but less than 1% of corporate executives and leadership roles and even less on boards. And that's been in the media a lot in the last couple years.
So, all this to ask you, what do we do? What do we say? How do we engage those who are still pushing back on believing what the data actually confirms is real about systemic inequality and what more needs to be done in your mind and from your perspective on how we need to address this?
Mayann Francis:
Well, racism and discrimination is still alive and well, unfortunately. And what's so important, and I keep emphasizing, is that everybody must understand the impact that slavery has had on the world and the negative impact in terms of if you're going to be looking at policies in your organization or even your own attitude, you need to have to understand systemic discrimination. You have to look at and understand microaggression. You have to understand unconscious bias. You have to understand covert overt racism.
You have to understand all of that because if you understand that including white privilege, that is all as a result of the history of slavery. And don't forget, some Canadians were saying, “We didn't have slavery in our country.”
Well, that's not true. We had it. And if people were to really go back and start looking at the history of so many black people, you might be very surprised at what — if you weren't so discrimination and or even just looking at what they have, what they suggest or what they're doing. You may have a better world.
Those things are there, but people just refuse because they still have in their heads the negative aspects of black people. And that's the piece that is alive. And it is well.
And I also think that it's so important that we as black people, and I encourage many of our young people, look at everything, first of all, love yourself. Look at education, very important. Look at education in the health industry. Look at education in environmental issues. Look at education in doing plumbing and look at education in doing sports.
There's everything, music, that we can be everything. Do you understand what I'm saying?
Stephen Dorsey:
Sure.
Mayann Francis:
And I encourage people to be that way and be excited. And I tell them, love animals too, special animals, like I love my cats. I got two, they're my little pets. It's important. And it's all about respect.
And you would be surprised to see how it's all there and when people say, “Yeah, but you were successful.” I said, “Yes, I'm successful and I want to make sure that there's followers.” I don't consider myself to be better than anybody else. I just consider myself to be able to do what God asked me to do.
And I do believe this was all God's call. And even now as I want to make sure that I have my legacy left behind, I always say to God, I said, “That's a lot of work you're asking me to do now, even at this stage of my life.” But I think it's important because I like my legacy to not only just be for black people, but for people who are not black.
Whether they're brown, whether they're white, whether they're immigrant, whatever, to just feel, let me understand this, let me study this. Let me feel that I have positive actions going down the road. Because as I said, I think about Martin Luther King, I think of Nelson Mandela. I think of all of those positive people.
Stephen Dorsey:
Well, I think it's a great way to position it to others. And from an inspirational standpoint. Speaking of calls, you've had lots of accomplishments throughout your career in life, but obviously becoming lieutenant governor of Nova Scotia, the 31st Lieutenant governor of Nova Scotia is a major milestone.
And I'm always interested as to how these things come about. And I know we've talked a little bit about this offline, but tell me what it was like to get the call from the Prime Minister of Canada asking you if you would serve.
And I know there's a whole protocol on how you have to meet in person and so on. Can you tell us a little bit about that story?
Mayann Francis:
Well, it was interesting because when the phone call came, it came when I was CEO of Human Rights Commission. And the person called my assistant and said they wanted to speak to me. And my assistant became very nervous because he knew it was the Prime Minister's office. And he accidentally hung up the phone on them and he came flying into my office and he said, “I just hung up the Prime Minister's office.” So, I said, “Sure you did.” And I just ignored him because I thought he wasn’t telling the truth.
So anyway, I said, “Well, that was probably somebody just making a false phone call.” “No, no, no, it was.” Anyway, he ran back in, called, and then I heard it and I said, “Oh, my gosh, there was the call from there.”
So, in any event, the person questioned me a lot and I said, “Can you tell me why you're calling?” “I can't,” the person said, “But I will get back to you and I might have you come up and meet with the Prime Minister.”
And I remember saying to my two, office staff at the time, I said, “You know what? I don't know. Did I do something wrong?” I said, “I always pay my taxes, so I don't understand why would they want me?”
Couldn't figure it out. But to make a long story short, I did have to fly there. And when I was asked to go there, I always sit on the aisle seat on a plane. But this time I decided to sit by the window because I knew there were going to be people on the plane I knew and I didn't want them asking me, “Where are you going? Why are you coming to Ottawa?”
Stephen Dorsey:
Yeah. Because you have to keep it under wraps until it's official.
Mayann Francis:
Exactly. That's right.
Stephen Dorsey:
Exactly.
Mayann Francis:
When I did get there and meet with the Prime Minister, and I was frozen too. And then of course, when I was asked, I just was blank because I said, this can't be happening. But in any event, it was.
And as I said earlier, in 48 hours, I gave my answer. But when I reflect on the year 1999, and I remember when there was a party at two friends place, and I talk about in my memoir that they asked us to write down what we would do when we get to year 2000.
I wrote down saying that, “Oh, when I become lieutenant governor,” don't ask me how I said that. But anyway, I was lieutenant governor.
So, in any event, the bottom line is, is that when I did say yes, I was prayed about it. And that's what I think God told me, “Say yes.”
And when I did decide to say yes, then I started praying about I want to do the right thing because of my respect and love for the Queen. And also, I want to make sure that there’ll always be a number two, a number three, a number four, a number five, a number six, and much more.
Stephen Dorsey:
And I like that this is what the legacy and the passing forward to the next generation is wanting to make sure that you dotted the I's and crossed the T's and performed and modeled success for others. Right?
Mayann Francis:
Absolutely.
Stephen Dorsey:
Right. So, to break down potential barriers that may erect based on if you had failed, right?
Mayann Francis:
Mm-Hmm (affirmative).
Stephen Dorsey:
With people waiting for you to fall. So, I commend you for that and of course you represented very well in all of the roles that you had.
Mayann Francis:
Thank you.
Stephen Dorsey:
We're getting to the end of our time close almost here, but I just want to bring it back to today. As we said, it's Black History Month, it's 2023, it's almost three years since the Global Reckoning on Race, since the murder of George Floyd. I did a lot of interviews this past week and people asking me, “Have we made progress? What more needs to be done?”
So, I'm going to ask you the same question. Do you think we've made some progress in Canada in regards to anti-black racism, systemic racism? And what do you think we need to do more of?
Mayann Francis:
Well, I would say that we've made some movement, short and small. But one area that I've noticed a lot of is when I'm watching television and I'm noticing more black people on particular areas and so forth. And I'm saying, “This is all very interesting. Wouldn't have seen this before.” Which I'm happy about because it shows that we're able to handle things as well in particular roles that we might be asked to be in.
In any event, there's still a lot more to do. I still feel that people do not understand the impact of slavery, on why there is systemic discrimination. People do not understand their policies and see that their policies have racist attitudes in terms of policies, et cetera.
I'm not saying that they don't want to do it. Well, some people don’t, and some people just say, “Oh no, we're doing it now.” But they don't fully understand the analysis of it. Because I think unconscious bias is another role that plays a very active role in there.
And I still get followed when I go into some stores. So, you see what I'm saying?
Stephen Dorsey:
Sure, yes.
Mayann Francis:
That attitude is there. And then when I tell that to close friends who might be white and they say, “But I don't understand how they don't know who you are.” I said, “That's not the point.” It's not about knowing that I was the lieutenant governor. Don't follow me. It’s not about that.
Stephen Dorsey:
No, no. You're a black body.
Mayann Francis:
Exactly. And that's what it is. The assumption is well, follow them because you don't know what they're going to be doing. And it's very frustrating. So, that's still there.
Then you still have some challenges in terms of police officers and so forth. But the bottom line, I'm not saying that they're not trying to make change. They are, but they have to fully understand, I think as leaders, you have to understand that you know the impact of what slavery has meant, even though it was a long time ago, it brought about changes.
And you have to understand the full meaning of white privilege. And that's not to say that you're not supposed to like yourself. No, I'm not saying that whatsoever.
And I remember when somebody read my book and they're white and they came and they said, “You know what, I'm really ashamed of being white.” I said, “Are you, why?” And so, they looked at me and I said, “I'm not telling you to be ashamed of who you are, I'm asking you to understand what it means.”
And then we had a long chat on that. And so, I said, “As long as you like yourself, I'll like you too.” And so, we just laughed and joke about it and I said, one of the ways that you can make changes is how do you teach your children?
Because we need to have histories in school. We need to have more understanding of the history of black people, the history of brown people, the history of indigenous people, definitely indigenous.
But I think so much we need to have our history there. And people did not know who Viola Desmond was. People did not know about other strong Canadian black people who've done exceptionally well way back when and are still doing exceptionally well. This is important.
Stephen Dorsey:
Exactly. So, a couple things you were mentioning, and I'm with you is because I speak about this as well, about the reforms we need in the systems and institutions, right?
Mayann Francis:
Yeah.
Stephen Dorsey:
And I was asked the other day and I said, well, when we're talking about there's the awareness, which is definitely increased. There's people moving towards a greater level of understanding both citizens and some leaders. But most of the systems and institutions were created by white men for white men.
And so, the only way that you're going to change that is through reform and actually getting back and reanalyzing, like for example, education. As I mentioned before, in Ontario, black history, 400 years of history is not even mandated.
The Black Historic Society of Ontario hired a big ad agency here in Toronto and did a 6O second spot that shows a great eight textbook and it's 255 pages and they've blacked out all the pages that don't have anything to do with/or mentioning black history at all. And that only left 15 pages, unaltered. Seriously.
Mayann Francis:
Yeah, yeah.
Stephen Dorsey:
So, just goes to imagine. So, I'm with you, so I'm glad we're on the same page and hopefully through people reading your book and other books and trying to do their own learning, we can take a few more steps toward that.
And I think black history is important to at least focus people for 30 days on black history, but hopefully it extends throughout the year.
Mayann Francis:
Absolutely. And we have good history. And I just think it's really good to know it and understand it because then that gives you a different feeling about people who are black today.
Stephen Dorsey:
Absolutely. And I know you've written something and maybe instead of answering this straight off, maybe you could share a poem that I know that you wrote specifically for Black History Month with us. And I think this might kind of sum up kind of your view of where we are and how people should maybe think about the future.
Mayann Francis:
Well, thank you so much. I definitely will share it, but I did not write the poem for Black History Month. I wrote it when I was given a speech about two months ago.
And when I was looking at something the other day and I looked and I said, “Oh, my gracious, this poem really fits for our history here for the theme for Black History Month.”
So, I'm glad to be sharing it with you. Again, I always say God has me do things and then when he has me look at it again, because the speech was over weeks ago, months ago, and I just happened to look and I said, “This fits in good for Black History Month, but it also fits in for my advice and my recommendations to African Nova Scotians.” Do you want me to read it?
Stephen Dorsey:
Yes, please.
Mayann Francis:
And by the way, I'm not a poet, but all of a sudden sometimes I find myself writing poetry. The title is My Beliefs for African Nova Scotians:
Hey, education is top of the line. Why not continuous learning? Oh, yeah. Books, humans, stories, talks, movies, films, plays, songs.
Love yourself and love your community. But don't forget to love all of God's creations. Cats, dogs, fish, humans.
Strategic thinking. Communicate, communicate. What does that mean? Positive outcome? God, my advisor, internal and external human advisors, females and males, help for climbing over the fence, climbing over the barriers, and climbing up the ladder.
Compassion, honesty and caring makes one feel good. Strong spirit cannot be broken. Truth sets one free. God's love. God's call.
Forgiveness? Yes. Anger, depression, overcome. Ride the course of faith for strength. Standing on top of the mountain, remember humility is down below.
Selfless? Yes. Selfish? No. Leading the cause for goodness. Why not? Inclusivity, determination? Why not?
Ancestors, thank you. Next generation. Black leaders, black women, black men, black youth. God's call. God's purpose. Faith in God. Amen.
Stephen Dorsey:
Thank you so much for sharing. Dr. Francis, it's been an honor. Thank you so much. Wish we could look forward to until we do this again.
Mayann Francis:
Well, it's been quite an honor to be here with you, Stephen. And I hope that you'll travel to Cape Breton or Halifax, so that I can see you and meet you.
Stephen Dorsey:
I look forward to the time, so-
Mayann Francis:
Good.
Stephen Dorsey:
Thanks again.
Mayann Francis:
Thank you.
[Music Playing]
Stephen Dorsey:
Thank you to the honorable Dr. Mayann Francis, the 31st lieutenant governor of Nova Scotia.
I encourage all of you to pick up Dr. Francis’ memoir, Mayann Francis: An Honorable Life, and her beautiful children's book, Mayann’s Train Ride, and One Summer in Whitney Pier, both available at your favorite local bookstores on Amazon and Indigo Chapters.
Thanks everyone for listening to Black & White. If you've enjoyed today's conversation, please be sure to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app and take the time to rate our show, please.
Black & White is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. Special thanks to my producer, sound designer and engineer Noah Foutz and our executive producer David Allen Moss.
A reminder that my book, Black and White: An Intimate, Multicultural Perspective on “White Advantage” and the Paths to Change is also available at your favorite bookstores across the U.S. and Canada and online at Amazon and Indigo Chapters.
You can find me on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn, or visit my website at stephendorsey.com. Send me a note. I'm always interested to hear your perspective and feedback.
I'm Stephen Dorsey, reminding all of us that we can all be better, do better, so that eventually we can all live better together.
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