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Steve Pierson: How We Win

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Steve Pierson: How We Win

Steve Pierson is an activist and organizer who has trained thousands of canvassing volunteers. He also co-hosts the podcast How We Win, where he interviews fellow activists, politicians, and insiders about what is happening on the front lines.

You can find Steve on Instagram and Twitter @BluesBoySteve.

Ken Harbaugh:

Burn the Boats is proud to support VoteVets, the nation's largest and most impactful progressive veterans organization. To learn more or to join their mission, go to votevets.org.

Steve Pierson:

We have a serious hill to climb. It's only gotten harder because of all of the legislation that's been passed, the gerrymandering, the voter restrictions. But you host Burn the Boats right? We don't have an option. The boats are burned. We're going to keep working even if it feels Sisyphean. Even if the boulder rolls back on us, we have to keep pushing it up that hill, because we have no other choice.



Ken Harbaugh:

I'm Ken Harbaugh, and this is Burn the Boats, a podcast about big decisions.

My guest today is Steve Pierson, an activist and organizer who has trained thousands of canvassing volunteers. He also co-hosts the podcast How We Win, where he interviews fellow activists, politicians, and insiders about what's happening on the front lines. Steve, welcome to Burn the Boats.

Steve Pierson:

Ken, thank you for having me. It's great to be with you.

Ken Harbaugh:

How are you feeling about 2022 politically?

Steve Pierson:

Getting right to it. We're not going to have a little small talk first before we go into the existential crisis facing our country?

Ken Harbaugh:

I'm nervous. I'm nervous. I like your optimism and I hope it is infectious, but November is right around the corner and some of the fundamentals are worrying.

Steve Pierson:

Yeah. Okay. Well, to actually answer your question, there is a lot of consternation. There's a lot to worry about. Because this isn't hyperbole. As you know we are once again facing the most important election of our lifetime, and the stakes couldn't be higher. I'm not a big one into looking at historical precedent. There's been a lot of pundits making a big deal over the party that comes into power in the presidency usually loses power after that in the midterms and all that.

We are truly living in unprecedented times. And we overcame so much to win in 2020. In the middle of a global pandemic we had to rework and just figure out new ways to reach out to voters, to campaign, to do it virtually. And it resulted in the largest turnout we've had for a presidential in our history. And so there's a lot to look at.

If you want me to be optimistic, which I truly am. I truly believe we can win in the midterms. We had some recent polling that showed a pretty massive, about 11 point shift, in the generic ballot between Republicans and Democrats. 11 points in the Democratic favor. But once again, I'm not a big poll guy because I know that the way that we win elections is by reaching out to voters and everyone getting involved.

And so what I really like to look at as sort of a bellwether for what's going to happen, is what the volunteer energy looks like. And that's where, for good reasons, I've been a little despondent. Because not just 2020, like people showed up for Georgia in a huge way for that special election as well. After that people took a big step back and they needed it. They were exhausted and were feeling the mental toll of the coronavirus and all of that on our families.

So people took a big step back and I hadn't seen a lot of volunteer energy really getting back going. It was sort of a slow ramp. But with this recent draft SCOTUS decision, it has blown up. People once again realized that their very rights and autonomies are under attack by a Republican party that's only real platform seems to be one of fascism. And so I'm very encouraged with the amount of engagement that I've seen in recent weeks. And primary season's here. It's here we go. So we need to all get involved right now.

Ken Harbaugh:

You referenced 2020, a few times. And we did carry the White House and you had a lot to do with that. But it wasn't an unambiguous victory across the country. I mean, we lost ground in quite a few places. In my home state of Ohio, Trump won by more in 2020 than he won by in 2016. I bring it up because even though I want to share in your optimism, I also want to be realistic about the headwinds.

Steve Pierson:

Well, you're right. I mean, it was a gut punch. I remember November, I'm sure we all do, 2020 very, very well. Because we, first of all, didn't have the overwhelming victory that we knew we needed to immediately squash what was clear was going to be a false narrative of voter fraud and disparaging the results of the election. And then it was just a big gut punch to see how many people in our country still voted for Trump, and still voted for his platform of hate and blame, and just the disaster that he's been for the country and for the Republican party in general, too. And if you are a person of color in this country, especially women of color in this country, the fact that so many people, so many White people and suburban White women still voted for Trump, it was devastating.

And so I think that's something that, like you said, you can't ignore and gloss over. We have a serious hill to climb. It's only gotten harder. See, now you've gotten me all negative. It's only gotten harder because of all of the legislation that's been passed, the gerrymandering, the voter restrictions. But you host Burn the Boats right? We don't have an option. The boats are burned. We're going to keep working even if it feels Sisyphean. Even if the boulder rolls back on us, we have to keep pushing it up that hill, because we have no other choice.

And I do believe that we can do it together because this is a minority, a very vocal and one that unfortunately has been able to seize a lot of power in our country. But they are the minority. We are the majority. And if we come together, I do believe that we can win in November, expand the Senate, maybe even make Sinema and Manchin less relevant in the Senate.

Ken Harbaugh:

The minority you are referring to is still, when you look at the presidential vote, 70 million Americans. I'm wondering how you think about persuasion and the challenge of winning over some of them, or if as an activist and a trainer and someone who believes in the power of canvasing, if your main thrust is get out the vote, is making sure to mobilize the Democratic voters to actually show up. How much thought do you give those 70 million Americans who pulled the lever for Donald Trump?

Steve Pierson:

Well, that's a great question. And we think a lot about persuasion, and who we're reaching out to both strategically and just socially for the sake of our country. Because we need to come together more. I mean, when you're talking about 70 million Americans, that's not one person with one set of values and one set of beliefs, right? That's an incredibly diverse 70 million Americans that spans the political spectrum to a certain extent. Even though they voted for a Republican, maybe they're lifelong Republicans that just couldn't stomach voting for a Democrat, but they don't support the MAGA Republicans, the White nationalist fascist wing that has taken over the Republican party.

So to answer your question about persuasion, I believe first and foremost, what we need to do as Democrats and what we need to do to win, is build power locally and support the organizations on the ground in these important states that have been there for years and have strong ties to this community. And that's mostly led by people of color, by organizations like Georgia's classic example that everyone is familiar with and likes to give, Fair Fight and Stacy Abrams and the kind of work that she's done for over a decade in Georgia to build what took us over the top in Georgia right after the 2020 election.

I believe that when we reach out and truly invest in those communities, that's how we build our voting base. There's a lot of people that are considered by campaigners as low propensity voters, so they get overlooked. Or maybe a campaign will swoop in and make a lot of promises to the community and say vote for me, I'm going to do this and this and this, because I'm the Democrat and I've got your back. But once the campaign's over, those people are not necessarily remembered. I don't like to call them low propensity voters. I like to call them high potential voters, because these are the people that we need to reach out to and engage with and just help lift up their lives, make their lives better. That's how we build the foundation of the Democratic party and that's who we are as Democrats anyway. That's who we're supposed to be at least. So that's really where my focus is.

Now you talk about Ohio, which it has, and I mean this with all the love that I have. It's nothing negative about Ohio, but it is a flummoxing state politically, and it has been for a long time, which is interesting because you know you do have a lot of people who were repelled by Trump. You have a lot of voters who voted for Obama, and voted for Trump. And those people need to be reached too. I think that they're reached by, like you talked about really talking to them one-on-one. I mean, there's no substitute for canvassing, for going door-to-door and having those personal conversations because that's when you can really find a common bond and find something that we have that's similar. We've done a lot of experiments on something called deep canvassing, which has been incredibly effective for gay marriage. It's been effective in other issue-based canvases as well. And we've been applying it to political campaign work because there's a lot that binds us together. But when you just go with phone calls, or you're just reaching out to someone on blanket issues, we're so tribal. Even if you come armed with the facts, most Republicans who are in the safety of their tribe have a hard time accepting facts, breaking out of that tribe because the repercussions are terrifying. Like if you are swayed and go against what all your friends and neighbors believe, then you're on your own. You're isolated. And we have to recognize how hard it is for people to break out of that. So we weren't able to do it in the pandemic. We're still facing the coronavirus. It hasn't gone away, but there is a safe way for us to go out and canvas and reach voters. And I really believe that's going to be the difference in the midterms.

Ken Harbaugh:

Does your approach depend on where you are? Because in hearing you talk about Fair Fight versus deep canvassing, they strike me as two very different attitudes towards voter engagement. Fair Fight, on one hand is primarily, as you said, about building the base and making sure your voters turn out. Deep canvassing in a place like Ohio is about getting the Trump voter to switch sides at least once. And that takes a very different mindset, a very different set of messages, a very different strategy. Are you able to deploy those at the same time?

Steve Pierson:

It's a great question. I will say I have an aspirational desire as a human, as a member of this society, to be able to bring us together more and to be able to heal the rifts that divide us. I don't have a lot of faith in the ability to do that right now in the climate that we are in. So if I'm speaking as a human, I want to really scale up deep canvassing programs all over the country, reach out to Republicans, have forums where we can all talk about what's important to us.

But as you said, we're months away from the midterms and speaking as a campaign person, I don't believe that's the best use of our time everywhere. In some places, absolutely. But to your point, I really believe what I started with, building our base, reaching the voters that believe in the same issues that we believe in, and that are under attack, that are under attack from the Republican party. I believe that's where we need to keep our focus.

Now, another thing that I didn't bring up is relational organizing, which is really powerful and has been a big part of how we won in 2020 and before. And that's where we really rely on people (hint, hint, your listeners) and everyone else to reach out to their networks, to their friends and family and make sure that they are the trusted messenger that brings people to the polls. And you'd be surprised if you go through your contacts, how many people you actually know in red states that you maybe haven't reached out to in a long time. Old college friends, old high school friends, and people like that. There's great tools like Outreach Circle, which is an app you can download and reach, which are relational organizing tools that make it easy for you to make a significant impact in these races.

So I don't know, that's kind of convoluted, maybe a slight dodge of your question, because I would like us to be able to heal some of these divides we have between our parties, but it is so wrought now and difficult for me. Like if you're giving quarter or even turning a blind eye to White nationalism, I don't have a conversation with you. I really don't have time for that right now.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, I don't blame you for the dodge because the conclusions can be really, really depressing when you consider the fact that maybe persuasion isn't going to work in an environment like this. We often assume or used to assume that the problem with the other side is an information deficit. That if we could just educate and inform, then of course, no one is going to vote for a fascist. They don't want that for this country. But back to Georgia, you look at a district like Marjorie Taylor Greene's, right? It's actually not that gerrymandered and she's hugely... Well, I don't know if she's hugely popular, but she raises a ton of money and will keep getting elected there.

Steve Pierson:

Yeah, there is a narrative. There is a woman named Anat Shenker-Osoria, who is one of the best communication experts that I know. We talk about her a lot. We've had her on our podcast a few times. She, along with Heather McGhee who wrote the fantastic book, The Sum of Us, has put together a race-class narrative. It's a way of talking to people across political spectrums, with things that we generally agree on. I would encourage your listeners to go to ASO Communications, which is Anat's website and check out the tools that she has, because she leaves them up for everybody. They're free and available.

It's basically no matter who you are, who you love, what's in your wallet, we can all agree that we want autonomy for our children, for our wives, for our daughters. And we want them to be able to make healthcare choices that protect their health. There is a group of 1%, corporate-led Republicans who want to take away your rights for their own power and for their own interests. Right? I just butchered it. She's so much better than that. But it's basically taking something that we could generally agree on. I probably shouldn't have picked abortion, because that's maybe the worst issue to try.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, there's actually huge middle ground there. There's huge middle ground.

Steve Pierson:

There is. There is. Republicans get abortions too, and it's now it's now about an 80% issue for support of Roe v Wade. So anyway. So race-class narrative does a better job of anything that I've seen in really bridging those divides, and so I encourage people to check that out as well.

Ken Harbaugh:

And that is at the heart of, you called it relational, organizing, but it's basically go talk to your mom.

Steve Pierson:

Go talk to your mom. Yeah. Like when we're knocking on doors, the thing that we try to do is become a trusted messenger. So there's language that we use in the scripts that allow us to build trust with the person that we're talking to. Usually it's like I'm your neighbor. I live over here or whatever. You know? And it can be hard to be that trusted messenger when you're literally a stranger that they've never met, you're knocking on a door.

But if you're somebody that is even a distant friend or someone that you know of through someone else, you're already that trusted messenger. And especially if you're like a non-political person, people really respond to that because sometimes when you're an organizer or a podcast host like us, they see us coming a mile away. They know that we're about to lay into them about who they should be voting for, what they should be believing, what values they should hold, because we're, quote unquote, the experts.

But when it comes from a true trusted messenger, someone that they know, it's really powerful and very, very effective. So there's another group called Vote Tripling, which does a great job of this. And that's a very simple concept of bringing three people to the polls with you. And if we did that, you don't have to be a mathematician to see how that would put us over the top.

Ken Harbaugh:

Let's talk about the other side of messaging because the trusted messenger approach is so positive and so optimistic. But one of the critiques, at least among the talking head class of the Democratic approach is that Democrats don't hit hard enough. There's this mantra in politics on the left that when they go low, we go high. Right? But there surely has to be a place or a time for punching below the belt.

Steve Pierson:

Yeah. I mean, the biggest area where we got in trouble was back in 2016 when we just didn't take Trump seriously. Like we didn't define the terms of the debate, so to speak, because we thought that the issue before us was so ridiculous and so repugnant that surely nobody would respond to it.

When I say define the terms of the debate, I'll use a really geeky example of when I was in high school on the debate team. When you do competitive debate, I don't know if you've ever done this, Ken, or any of your listeners have, but you have the affirmative and the negative. And the affirmative is responsible for defining the terms of the debate. And I was doing, the term was a Thomas Jefferson quote, "A little revolt every now and then is a good thing." And I prepared all these arguments about like the French revolution and revolts that ended in tyranny and destruction and death and all that, and whatever, because that was on the negative. The positive defined revolt as throwing up. Right? As like actually vomiting, and then did this whole argument about when you vomit, you're getting rid of harmful bacteria if you'd eaten some bad mayonnaise or something. It was ridiculous. It had nothing to do with the quote. It had nothing to do with Thomas Jefferson's intention. I didn't even engage with it. And I lost the debate. And the judge for the debate said, if you had just addressed their precept, even just once, I would've given it to you, because it was ridiculous. But you didn't do it. And that's what we didn't do in 2016.

We didn't come out right away and talk about what Trump was doing. The trumpet that he was blowing, how he was pulling out all of this hateful White nationalism, cozying up literally to David Duke and dismissing the endorsement of the KKK in his campaign. We didn't do that then. And that allowed this to metastasize in our country. And it had always been there. It'd always been underneath the skin, but now it was loud and proud.

So that's one thing that we need to do, is not ignore what is in front of us, and call it out. How we deal with that, I think that Democrats actually are dealing with it substantively in very important ways. But how that reaches people is the bigger problem in this media ecosystem.

Ken Harbaugh:

So you don't worry that calling out these behaviors and these outrages give them more oxygen in a way?

Steve Pierson:

No, I mean, you don't always want to just negate something. You want to talk about what you're for too. So like if you negate something to go back to the Trump campaign, like one of the slogans that Hillary had was Love Trump's Hate. Well that literally has Trump in the name. Right? And we know from the way that people process information, that the first words and sentences with our brain are actually more powerful than the ending. So people subtly remember Love Trump and the Hate kind of disappears. And that's the way that our brains work. So when we negate something, and like you said, even if we do it with facts. Like there was the big push against Islamic terrorists. Right? And calling Islamic terrorists. And then the negation to that is, not all Islamists or Muslims are terrorists. All the brain really takes away from that is those powerful words of terrorism. So Islamic terrorists. It actually works to reinforce that when you negate it.

So you don't want to always go negating it, but you have to call it out. You have to be clear about what the Republicans are doing. And then you have to talk about what you are doing, what Democrats are doing, what we stand for, because we have done a lot and we stand for a lot, and we are only getting started here. It's frustrating as hell that the Senate is so jammed up right now and that we can't get through it. It's why it's so important that we take away some power from Manchin and Sinema and expand the Senate so we can actually get all this great legislation that the House has been able to pass, codified.

Ken Harbaugh:

Do you buy the narrative that at their core Dems are just bad at messaging?

Steve Pierson:

No, I don't. I really don't. I mean, that's such a fun narrative to dig into. I mean, look, these campaigns have done some really terrible things. You know, there's some laughable messaging gaffs and there's some really strong messaging too. But I think, as I said before, the more important issue is how people are getting those messages. And our media ecosystem is in such chaos and turmoil right now. People aren't reading newspapers. They aren't even really watching the news. They're getting snippets of news, and therefore snippets of messaging from social media feeds, from someone else in their circle.

Again, now we're into that tribal bubble that keeps propagating the same messages over and over again because that's all people get in their algorithm and from their community members. So dealing with how people consume media, I believe is the much bigger problem. And trying to figure out better ways for the messages to get through to people is the much bigger problem than the message itself.

Ken Harbaugh:

Let me posit a theory.

Steve Pierson:

Go on.

Ken Harbaugh:

Which starts with the premise that at a campaign level Democrats are no better or worse than Republicans at messaging. But when it comes to unifying themes, there is a difference, and there is something really lacking in the left's ability to construct a coherent narrative. I see that all the time, but what I read into it is a fundamental feature of Democratic politics, and the challenges of diverse viewpoints and a big tent, as contrasted with the other side, where the penalties for straying are severe, where the thought police are incredibly active, and the rigidity of thought is all-encompassing.

Steve Pierson:

Yeah. I mean, I don't disagree with that. I mean, for sure Republicans are famously great at falling in line. And we see it now as they've gone further and further to the right, how moderate-ish Republicans have now gone to the extreme right because that's where they have been told to go, and that's where their dear leader has led them. And Democrats are a diverse coalition, and I think really reflect our diverse country in wonderful ways. But that does make it harder for us to all fall in line and follow the same talking points. I mean, God, Republicans are absolutely great at that.

I'm hoping that some of that changes. Certainly abortion rights has been one thing that Republicans have really held onto. Abortion rights and the Supreme Court have been two things that have really galvanized Republican voters, and the Republicans have been very disciplined on. And Democrats have not fought as hard on those issues. I think now it is impossible for us to ignore how important both of those issues are, and I think that it's going to really be a galvanizing force come the midterms. One that is going to really hurt Republicans and favor Democrats.

Again, we have a few months to go and a lot can change in a few months. We have sadly very short memories, which is evident by every shooting that we see where everyone's up in arms, and then nothing happens on legislation even though 90% of the country favors strong and sensible gun legislation. But I remain optimistic because, once again, I'm looking at the volunteers on the ground, the people who are stepping up, donations who are coming into our funds, and I'm encouraged

Ken Harbaugh:

At the beginning of this conversation, you mentioned that 11 point swing in the generic Democrat, Republican ballot, which I attribute to the leaked SCOTUS opinion. It's all about Roe, right?

Steve Pierson:

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I mean, every campaign likes to likes to lead with what I led with, and that's that we're facing the most important election of our lives. And I really thought I wasn't going to get away with saying that line after the presidential election, which clearly was the most important election of our lives. But when we see what is happening, and the candidates that are running right now. I mean, Mastriano in Pennsylvania who is literally going to change the outcome of the presidential election if he is elected. Our very democracy is under attack. And the upending of a law that has been on the books and a right that people have had for 50 years, is something that people probably should have seen coming. A lot of us saw it coming, but now it's impossible to ignore. And voters are pissed. Women are pissed. Women of color are really pissed. They carried it for us in the 2020 election. And I believe that they're going to keep doing that important work.

We have to support them. I'm a straight white man, and I believe that I, and all of us, have a responsibility to step up in this moment. We cannot be silent. We have to get to work.

Ken Harbaugh:

You recently wrote this on Twitter: Campaigns are sometimes shy about sharing positive polls because they think it will curb people's sense of urgency. The opposite is true. People want to join the winning team and no one wants to board the Titanic. Great sentiment. But how do you balance a sense of urgency with your instinct for optimism? I see them as in fundamental tension.

Steve Pierson:

Well, I appreciate the sentiment of optimism and I don't want to come off as totally Pollyanna. This actually comes from research, and this is what we know about how people respond to phone calls, to when you knock on the door and talk to them. The gloom-and-doom scenario feels like the fierce urgency of now for us, and I relate to that. Like I am freaked out. Like there is so much. I mean, we didn't even talk about the climate. That's the scariest thing of everything. Right? There is so much work that we have to do, that is so pressing that I get like the boat's sinking, we need everyone to bail. We're in deep trouble. But what that really does psychologically, what we know from the research on reaching out to voters, is it makes people pull the covers up over their head and bury their head in the sand because they think, "Well, if we're all so doomed, what good is my vote? What am I possibly going to be able to do?" But when we talk to people in a positive way about how engaged their neighbors are, how engaged everyone is, people are really stepping up: "I just talked to your neighbors down the street. And they're really excited about voting in this election because they know the stakes. They know that their rights are under attack. They know that if we don't codify Roe v Wade, that Supreme Court's going to take away women's autonomy. So they're really excited to vote for Democrats in this election. They're really excited to participate in our democracy."

Make it a party. People want to join that. People want to do what their neighbors are doing, what their communities are doing. They don't want to get left out of the party. And so it's not just about being optimistic. It's about giving people something to join because they want to do that. That's what our psyche wants us to do.

Ken Harbaugh:

I'd like to think the best evidence for that approach is what is happening in Georgia right now, where you have had this wave of laws that are designed to suppress votes that are designed to intimidate voters. You can go to jail for passing out water in a line of people to vote, for obvious reasons. And yet, the numbers at first glance belie the concerted attempts by the Republican legislature to suppress. And you have historically high turnouts in early voting. What do you make of that?

Steve Pierson:

It's exciting and I'm not surprised. I'm not sure when this interview's going to air, but the Georgia primary is tomorrow, and we have seen a model for organizing in Georgia that has expanded into other states like Texas, certainly in Arizona, and all over the country, really. That, like I said, begins with community groups and building coalitions with the Democratic party in those states and campaigns, and everyone working together across, as you said, diverse opinions and diverse priorities. But a common goal of lifting each other up and helping each other win.

You know, that's how we do it. We saw the same thing happen in 2020 with overcoming enormous obstacles, and the obstacles are even greater now. So it's really great to see that. I don't want to say I'm not surprised. It's what I had hoped to see. And it's going to be really interesting to see the rest of the primaries unfold. If that trend continues, then let's all join this party and volunteer together to make sure that we push back against these egregious voter suppression laws that have been passed in this country. They're so anti-democratic and have no place in our republic.

Ken Harbaugh:

But hopefully they have provoked the kind of Democratic antibodies that you need to stop the kind of infection that the Republican party, especially in state houses, is spreading.

Steve Pierson:

I love that. Yeah. Unfortunately change takes a long time, especially within our system of government, especially when we have a Senate that is truly not representational. It's not a reputational body. And it's hard not to get impatient. It's very difficult not to get despondent when you have spectacular voting rights legislation that gets squashed in the Senate, and you're not able to pass the Build Back Better agenda because of one Senator. It's hard not to get despondent about that, but this is just the beginning. We have just come into power. It takes a while, and we need to build on the momentum that we have.

You think about the women's health legislation that got passed a long time ago, actually. Right? The beginning of their term from the House. And people forget about that. People forget about a lot of the legislation that got passed through the House. This is what we have to look forward to. This is the case that we need to go out and make to our friends and neighbors, that we need to build on what we have already achieved, and give the kind of majority to Biden for the next two years of his presidency that will really create transformative change in our country.

Ken Harbaugh:

Are you willing to venture any predictions for 2022?

Steve Pierson:

I honestly don't think I have any insight that anyone else hasn't talked about. There's cases to be made on a lot of different races. I'm here in California. Once again, California seems to be ground zero for the House. We have a lot of really important House races that we must win in order to hold onto the House. The early voting in our primary has shown a huge Democratic favorability there. It's just the early vote of what's come in from our vote-by-mail system. We in California have an open primary, which can give us a lot of information about what's going to happen in the general too, because everyone can vote for whatever candidate they want, whether it's a Republican or a Democrat, and the top two move on. So that's really encouraging. We're seeing great participation and great Democratic participation across California. So I hope that's a good harbinger. We've got a great candidate running in Pennsylvania now. I think Fetterman is a really exciting candidate. That's a must-win state for us, and so I'm hopeful there.

I'm not going to prognosticate because that's not really my job or what I'm best at, but I will say what I saw happen in 2018 with volunteers showing up and going to campaign offices and knocking on doors and making phone calls and writing letters. What I saw in 2020, which blew that out of the water, the thousands and thousands of people we had on phone banks, stepping up, being part of our democracy, doing the work of citizens. That's what I expect to see from people in 2022, this year, this November, in this most important election of our lifetime. So I remain optimistic because I have seen that play out in the last few elections, and I believe that's the trend that we're on.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, I hope you are right, Steve. We shall see. It has been great having you on. Thanks for the insights.

Steve Pierson:

Thank you so much. We really appreciate being here. I really appreciate being here.

Ken Harbaugh:

Thanks again to Steve for joining me. Make sure to check out his podcast, How We Win.

You can also follow him on Instagram and Twitter @BluesBoySteve.

Thanks for listening to Burn the Boats. If you have any feedback, please email the team at [email protected] We're always looking to improve the show.

For updates and more follow us on Twitter @team_harbaugh. And if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to rate and review.

Thanks to our partner, VoteVets. Their mission is to give a voice to veterans on matters of national security, veterans care, and issues that affect the lives of those who have served. VoteVets is backed by more than 700,000 veterans, family members, and their supporters. To learn more, go to votevets.org.

Burn the Boats is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. Our producer is Declan Rohrs, and Sean Rule-Hoffman is our audio engineer. Special thanks to evergreen executive producers, Joan Andrews, Michael DeAloia, and David Moss.

I'm Ken Harbaugh, and this is Burn the Boats, a podcast about big decisions.

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David Gergen: Passing the Torch to Gen-Z

Burn the Boats | S:1 E:78
Former Presidential Advisor David Gergen discusses leadership, passing the torch to younger generations, and his new book, Hearts Touched with Fir...
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Lecia Michelle: The White Allies Handbook

Burn the Boats | S:1 E:77
Lecia talks about her new book, The White Allies Handbook, and how white people must use their voices to actively dismantle racism....
Listen to Lecia Michelle: The White Allies Handbook