Meaningful Fact Based Feedback

Sara: Welcome to Can I Offer You Some Feedback? My name is Sara, and this is the podcast for those who have a complicated relationship with feedback and are looking to hear from real people across levels and industries with their ideas, perspectives, and best practices on feedback. Before we dive in, I'd like to introduce our guest on the podcast today, Courtney. He's a program developer and manager at a nonprofit offering inclusive camp programming for individuals with Down syndrome. Welcome to the conversation today.

Courtney: Thanks for having me.

Sara: Awesome. Well, let's kick things off with the main question of the podcast. When I say the phrase, can I offer you some feedback? What's your gut reaction when you hear that?

Courtney: Well, my initial gut reaction is, uh-oh, something critical is going to follow. I often think of feedback in the sense of like a two-way radio. And when there's that static or when you're on the wrong channel, you get that noise, that feedback, a sound that comes through that kind of creates a lack of communication or understanding. And so, I instantly prepare myself for what's next. What is this person about to tell me about myself? What did I do wrong? And so it seems to come from a deficit mindset usually. And usually very worried about what usually comes from the individual who's about to give me some feedback.

Sara: I love that metaphor of a two-way radio because even when you think you're communicating clearly into that radio, it's impossible to hear on the other side. Even the best ones. It's hard and like, I don't know where the person's going and I don't know what the message is. I love that metaphor. I think it's really accurate for kind of how we're in these conversations. Somehow the telephone is a lot easier because we can get that nonverbal or like that Mm-hmm. Yeah. Where like you can't do that on a two-way radio. You say your thing and then I say my thing. I really like that. When you're thinking about feedback and you're structuring it, are you someone who prefers to be the giver or the receiver of feedback?

Courtney: I think I prefer to give feedback. I feel like most people prefer to give feedback in some way because we all have our observations. We take in a lot of information from our environment, from those people who are around us. And with that, we often are ready and prepared to share that information to help if we can. I always think about my favorite restaurant or my not favorite restaurant and the reasons why I prefer that restaurant over why not. And if I had the opportunity to share with them, like, here's what you do well, or here's what you don't do well. I would easily just jump in because I've had that experience. I've walked into that. On the receiving end, it tends to be a little bit different.

Sara: Yeah. Well, you don't know. I think we're definitely primed, especially with restaurant as a great example, to offer our feedback, to make suggestions, whether or not they care is another thing. But we're definitely primed to give a rating, give a reaction, like tell us what we thought of the experience, but they really only want the positive feedback. But I'm sure it's not surprising. When you're thinking about, and I know you work on a team and you've worked on lots of teams in prior organizations, when you are acting as the giver, how do you open up the conversation or set the stage to give someone else feedback?

Courtney: The main objective is to be empathetic. I tend to try to meet people where they are, understanding that feedback has to be given in a timely manner and that the timing of that feedback is also just extremely critical. I mean, you can think of so many situations where someone could be dealing with just life in general, life likes happens, and how if you give them feedback in a space where they don't feel safe or they don't feel like they can receive that feedback, it can fall on deaf ears and actually not really set that person up for success.

So often I try to think about from an empathetic standpoint of what is it that this person needs? Where are they currently? Are they in a head space that they can receive it? Did they have a bad day this week and now I'm about to give them a bad performance review? Or something to that nature. So yeah.

Sara: And I think it's really important. I hear you kind of saying, I need to know the person a bit before I'm just offering it. And we don't always have that opportunity to really know where people are at and what they're thinking and what they're feeling. But I think in some ways it's both easier and harder to give feedback to those that we know really well. Because, yes, we know them and we have that context and we have a lot of data, but we also know them. And so it's hard and you have to see them tomorrow. It's tricky on both sides and that empathy is a nice way to kind of wrap it and think about it and provide it in the right way for that person.

I'm curious, sometimes when we talk in feedback training about, well, make sure the feedback you deliver is meaningful. What does that mean to be meaningful feedback? I know you touched on empathy a moment ago, but I'm just curious, when you think about meaningful feedback, what comes to mind, other than empathy?

Courtney: For me, it's definitely a strength-based focus. It has to be focused on things that I do well. I like the sandwich method. If somebody is giving me some feedback, but I do prefer strength-based. It's really hard for me to hear a list of things that I didn't do well or a list of things that I could be doing better, but not hear all the things that you've accomplished.

I think about being on sports teams. When my coach says, "Hey, you did this well. That free throw you did, you had a good form." I was always more receptive to that and more likely to duplicate that behavior than when I got a negative remark that was like, oh, don't do that. Or you need to do this better. Without the coaching that comes along with that, it doesn't necessarily set you up for the same success. So, a strength-based focus has always been what's most important to me and has always been, for me, what set me up for success through receiving feedback.

Sara: I think that the strength-based focus, so it's hard to say that, is a really nice framing. Some people struggle with it. Because you're right, we are trained to be deficit-oriented. What's wrong? What's missing? Where's the gap? How do we fix it? Rather than what's working and what could be good and what might be another approach that we might use or how can we use what we already have to build upon that.

And I think that I always challenge people to think of when we talk about constructive feedback, it should build on like a construction project. It's not destructive feedback. We specifically picked constructive, and so how is it supporting, and how does it aid, and how does it build on what that person already has? But that can be really tricky, again, if we're so focused on what isn't working and what's not good and what needs to be improved. And I really appreciate that that seems to work for you and thinking about that framing.

I'm curious, sometimes people resonate more with a bit of an example, is there a time where you can think about either you received meaningful feedback or you saw someone else delivering it, or maybe you were the person delivering it, but you wouldn't know necessarily if it was meaningful. Just to hear a little bit about how you've seen it in action.

Courtney: Oh, absolutely. So currently, working in a remote space, the transition is not as smooth as one might think. Like from working in an office where you can high-five people, pat people on the back, roll up your sleeves, and kind of jump in and support. In a virtual space, sometimes that is not as easy through a Zoom room or a breakout room or something, or a Slack channel. So, I have received feedback that my management skills were not necessarily translating the same way that they were in person in the virtual space.

And so, in that experience, it was tough to hear it because most people have been like, "Yeah, Courtney, you're a decent manager and you meet people where they need to be met." In the virtual space, it required a different level of skillset and a different level of connection to someone who's not sitting right across from you in an office space.

And my boss really did a really good job of providing that feedback in a way that it was digestible for me, in a way that was like, but here are your strengths. Here are things you do really well and here's how I'm going to continue to push you in that direction. However, I do want you to focus on this set of skills that will help you better connect with the project management piece of your work. Because project management seems to be the bigger focus in this virtual space.

And so I was able to really hone in on that. It's a construction. You mentioned it is a work in progress. I am still working on it. But definitely set me up to be like, okay, I haven't knocked the ball off the park yet, but we're getting some base hits and we're getting all base.

Sara: And I love that you highlight that remote transition, it isn't the same, obviously it's not the same. But if you were in an office and you were passing by people's offices and saying good morning, how was your weekend, et cetera, it's a casual conversation. It's a friendly check-in, it's empathetic. But if every morning my remote boss messaged me, good morning. How was your day? I don't know if I would read it the same. It wouldn't have the same feel. I think I would default to they're checking in on me rather than it's just a walking-through. Because it's not the same.

If you're someone who makes connections and builds relationships that way, it's different when you're not co-located, not that you can't adjust to it and not that you can't adapt to it, but it's not the same and you can't say good morning the same way. And that's a big difference. And a lot of people are like, oh, okay, I just walked across my hallway and now I'm in my office and I don't see anyone or it's just me and the cat or me and the dog and it's different.

And that is a huge shift again from how do we connect and interact with each other, just to again, build rapport, which is a lot of management. Building rapport, building understanding so that I can ask the hard thing or ask the different thing. But if I don't have opportunities to do that and build the connection, then what? It's just asking without having invested that upfront.

Courtney: Absolutely.

Sara: I'm thinking about, and you give feedback in a number of different settings, not only on the program side, but also to your teams and colleagues. If there was one thing that you wish folks could do better regarding feedback, and like I'm in the business of granting wishes, what is that one thing that you wish folks could do differently regarding feedback?

Courtney: I wish that folks would remove their bias. I think often we hold on to our biases, they protect us. And so those biases, one that I see often is anchoring bias. That one feeling you have about this individual has now anchored every single bit of feedback that you're going to give to them as if you're trying very hard to push them to do that thing or to solve that problem that you are just kind of stuck with. They may not solve it. They might not get there.

However, you also see the halo bias where someone is very much like, this person is a godsent and we're going to promote every single thing that they do. And it may not necessarily mean that everything they do is grand. But I think checking your bias and being facts based with feedback has always been a practice that makes sure that what the person is getting has substance that is actionable for them, that they can utilize whatever tools that they have in their toolkit to be able to successfully overcome whatever the challenge is.

But also, for those good things that they get, the good feedback, that positive reinforcement pushing them forward so that they know, hey, I'm on the right track. I'm doing these things right. I think that with that, if we all could just be a little bit more empathetic, if we all could just try to check our biases at the door, I think the feedback loop would be so much more better because more people would be less defensive and be more willing to open the door and say, "Hey, come on in and tell me what you think.

Sara: Right. And I love that you defined those few biases. I think that the first step is being aware that you have the bias.

Courtney: Absolutely.

Sara: And a lot of people are like, well, I don't know what it is. I just get along better with them and I'm like, well, I'll tell you what it is. There's something there. Maybe you went to the same school, you were raised in the same community, you have the same interests. I don't know what it is, but there's something. There's something that's making it easier. You feel like it's easier to connect to this person. And I just don't know if you know that other person well enough yet to know whether there is something there that you can connect with them with, and something there you can have a connection with.

It's normal to have bias. It's normal to feel something and identify it and maybe not have the name for it. But I think what I'm hearing you say is to check it, right? Check it at the door, acknowledge that it's there, and then answer the question of how is that bias changing the feedback I'm providing? Right? Like, do I have some presumption about how something should be done because of X, Y, and Z? And is that really necessary? Like, is it getting done? Fine. Then maybe I don't even need to give the feedback.

Or perhaps it's, yes, and I think it's important in this context because. Because now the other person can understand, okay, I think that our, let's say, donors care about this, this, and this because of this. What do you think about that? Or what do you notice about our donors or attendees or participants? I think that that we don't talk about it. We just say, well, I know what I'm doing or it feels right. Tell me what the feel is though. What's that intuition? What is it saying? Because I know it's saying something but share it so we can talk about it and we can acknowledge it and we can see whether it feels accurate for everyone else.

Courtney: Absolutely.

Sara: I'm wondering, in your position, obviously you're a manager and you oversee some programs and I'm sure you have other folks who don't technically report to you, but also you have to influence them. When you're thinking about feedback, again, either checking the biases or showing up with empathy, how do you encourage your team to give feedback to each other? Not just having you do it all the time or escalating it to a different boss. How do you encourage folks to share with each other?

Courtney: Well, I've always been a lead by example type of manager. I've mentioned earlier, roll up your sleeves. And so I think that having that open door policy to be able to go directly to someone and say, "Hey", and I that in and I mean that in a virtual space, obviously. But going to someone and saying, "Hey, here are some things I'm noticing, or here's this product we're working on. Let's get on the same page about it.

I think showing that example has allowed for other people to feel like, "Oh, I can do the same thing. I can share that same connection with one of my colleagues.

It's basically how I've learned and I'm not saying it means that everyone learns the same way. But where I may have struggled with project management or some aspects of that, I have learned from my colleagues because of their example. And so, I'm like, well, if I put it out there and when someone comes to me if I practice all the things that I've mentioned, if I practice that empathy, if I practice removing my bias or at least trying to check it as best as I can, now, the hope is that when they go into those conversations with their colleagues, that they will do the same thing. That they'll say, "You know what? I've seen this in practice. I'm going to try my hand at it as well.

And hopefully, we can create a culture around, where you're checking your bias before you go in and provide feedback, where you're thinking empathetically about how someone else might be receiving the feedback. Before you're just thinking about how you're going to give it.

Sara: I think that sometimes we're so focused on the delivery rather than the content because the delivery feels awkward. But the person is hearing the content. I mean, they're also observing your delivery. But they're hearing the content of what you're saying and if you're so nervous about how you're doing it rather than what you're saying, and is this the right thing to share, and is this the right time... It muddies the waters quite a bit, and it changes the focus of what you're trying to get across to that person because of your own issue or struggle with that information. So I really like that example you provided. Well, for our last question in our time together, Courtney, can I offer you some feedback?

Courtney: Please.

Sara: Hopefully that wasn't a gut drop. What'd you do wrong? What kind of moment?

Courtney: Oh, no. I appreciate it.

Sara: One of the things, and you and I've known each other for a few years now in an unusual remote and then in person and hybrid and different project setting, one of the things I've kind of observed and really appreciated about you is you're, I want to call it, it's not relentless but it's a really directive focus on the things that you want to accomplish. I remember when we were talking, again, years ago, you were like, this is what I want to do. This is how I want to do it. And this is the person I found to do it. And I'm going to talk to them and here's the opportunity. And I'm going to chase this. And I was like, what do you mean?

It sounded so like, nope, this is what's going to happen. And this is how I'm going to do it. And this is what it's going to work. And I'm going to figure out a way. We were talking about you moving to another state with your whole family and pursuing an opportunity that sounded awesome. And obviously, there were other benefits of moving for your family as well, but it felt so like, yeah, Courtney is going to do it.

And we were catching up a little bit before recording this. And you're like, yeah, I've been here a couple of years and I've accomplished it. And I'm looking for what's next. Not necessarily that you want to leave, but you're looking for what are the new things that I can accomplish? What are the new goals that I can attain? And I've got no doubt that you're going to get them done and do that very quickly because there's this focus of, here's the goal. I'm going to work the goal, and then get it done.

And you do it with such a calm strength, I guess is the best word that I really love. And every time I'm thinking about like, okay, I got to do the thing, just like work the situation and get it done and figure out the objective. Courtney did it. So, I'm just going to think like that. So, I just wanted to thank you. It's been really fun to see, and I know we've been trying to catch up and connect a bit. But I really enjoyed having seen that and it's a reminder that just work the plan, take it step by step, work the plan, go after the thing you want to do and it'll happen. So I wanted to say thank you for that.

Courtney: And I want to just thank you because it's folks like you who have checked in and kind of like, well, what's your progress on that? Asking and providing the opportunity for me to kind of put where I'm at with it and to share my thinking on it. That's is accountability. And for me, that type of accountability is what keeps those ideas, those goals, those moonshot things in view so that they can be attainable. And I think that that's what ultimately helped me get to where I'm at. And I always am looking for what's next on that list of things that are, what can I go and reach for?

Sara: I talked to a lot of folks who are like, no, no, no, I'm going to hold myself accountable to this goal. And I was like, you're already in the goal. Not that you can't try and hold yourself accountable, but when it's hard at 8:00 p.m., who are you going to talk to? When it's rough at 6:00 a.m., who is going to be that like, you got this today? You need people other than you in those moments to be, as you were saying, like, what's the progress? How are you moving to this? It doesn't sound like you want to do that. What are you hesitant about? What do you want to explore? What isn't working? You need other people.

And again, it doesn't have to be hundreds of people, but you need some people to also participate in accountability. So I always encourage folks, I have some action planning that I typically do at the end of sessions and folks are just like, no, no, I'll do it myself. And I'm like, I hear you, but who else is going to talk to you about this if you really want to get it done and if you really want to make a change, so.

Well, Courtney, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me, and thanks to you for joining us in another episode of Can I Offer You Some Feedback? You can reach me at [email protected]. We would love to hear from you on your thoughts on feedback or any other perspectives you'd like to hear from next. As always, give us a quick rating on your platform of choice and share this podcast with a friend. And I'm hoping that tomorrow you take a chance and offer some feedback when it's needed most.