Gone in a flash with Kristin Loesch

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Adam Sockel:

You are listening to Passions & Prologues, a literary podcast where each week, I'll interview an author about a thing they love and how it inspires their work.

I'm your host, Adam Sockel, and today's guest is Kristin Loesch, author of the new novel, The Last Russian Doll. It is a dual timeline story that is set mostly in Russia in the early 1900s and then close to present day.

And it follows two strings of a story that ultimately weave together in very, very unexpected ways. It's the story of the Russian revolution of a woman trying to figure out her place in the world, and her place in her family, and the mysteries that her mother has left her with these keys inside of a Russian doll that she discovers after her mother's untimely death.

There's a little bit of what feels like a ghost story attached to it, but ultimately, it is a story of emotion and heartbreak, and all sorts of things that I really loved. I'm a fan of Russian literature, so obviously, I was drawn to this and my discussion with Kristin only made me want to read the book more, which it did not disappoint when I was able to do it.

Our conversation today is all about Kristin's found love of flash fiction and experimental fiction. If you're unfamiliar, we obviously, get into it a lot in the discussion, but it's basically these small types of stories that you can write in a few sentences, in a few hundred words.

There are all sorts of flash fiction locations you can find on the internet, and it's something that Kristen discovered during the pandemic. I often find myself thinking when authors are in between novels, what do they do to keep themselves sharp, and well, flash fiction is one of those things.

I think you'll really enjoy this conversation. It's really interesting. And also, if you are a writer or someone who is looking for an outlet or just something to do to feel a little bit creative, flash fiction is a perfect way to dip your toe in without feeling like you have to figure out a way to write a hundred thousand word novel or anything of that sort.

Before we get into this discussion, I want to give you a quick book recommendation. I am just about finished with the book of Form and Emptiness by Ruth Ozeki. It is a long story about a boy who was suffering through some mental illness after the untimely death of his father.

A lot of untimely deaths in this introduction. His name is Benny Oh, and he hears voices that belong to the things in his house, whether it's a sneaker or a broken Christmas ornament or a piece of food. He hears voices all around him and he's not really sure how to deal with it.

Along the way, we learn that his mother is also going through some mental illness of her own, and Benny meets a cast of very interesting characters that sort of guide him along the way on his early teenage journey as he tries to find himself while also dealing with these mental health issues.

So, I really am enjoying the story. It is sometimes hard to read, but it is very relatable for someone as myself who’s struggled with mental health aspects in my own life. So, I really think you'll enjoy it, especially if you are a fan of books about books, of discussing mental health, or of kind of broken and then found family stories as well. So, that's the book of Form and Emptiness by Ruth Ozeki.

If you'd like some additional book recommendations from me, you can always email me at [email protected]. Love it if you left me rating or review wherever you listen to your podcast, whether it's Spotify or Apple or iHeart, it does help people find me just a little bit more easily. So, really appreciate that.

And if you send me an email with the things you are passionate about, I'm giving away a bookshop.org gift card once a month randomly to any listeners who do that, I'll pick one. I just love reading the things that you guys are passionate about.

I've heard cereal and going for walks and people telling me about their passions that are similar to past guests. So, anything is just like hearing from you guys. That is everything. I'm going to let you get to this episode of Passions & Prologues podcast with Kristin Loesch, author of the last Russian Doll.

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Okay, Kristin, what is something you are super passionate about that we're going to be discussing today?

Kristin Loesch:

So, we are going to be talking about my interest in writing flash fiction and experimental fiction.

Adam Sockel:

Ooh, I love this. Okay. So, first things first, when did you discover you have this interest?

Kristin Loesch:

That is a great place to start. It really began for me during the pandemic, during the lockdown. And while my novel was away from me, so it was with my agent, and I suddenly had this kind of creative void and didn't know how to fill it. And had only just started kind of using social media, looking at the writing community, and I stumbled across the flash fiction writing community, particularly in the UK where it's a really, really big deal.

And I saw well, people are publishing writing stories and publishing stories that are just gut-wrenching and they're only like a hundred, 200 a page long. And I was really bowled over by that and thought, okay, I'm going to give it a try. And I became quickly very obsessed.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. So, for people who might not be familiar, can you kind of describe what like flash fiction is? Because like you said, that's sort of when I became really familiar with it too, is during the pandemic when we were all just like honestly Google scrolling.

So, can you kind of sort of describe people what the definition of flash fiction is, so they have an idea what we're kind of diving into here?

Kristin Loesch:

Sure. So, there's no specific kind of agreed upon definition, but if you think of a novel as kind of between 80,000 words, maybe a 100k, and then a novella kind of maybe between 20,000 to 50,000 words, and then a short story, I would put between 3,000 and 10,000.

And then for flash, I would go between 1,000 and 3,000 words, and anything under a thousand would then be called micro fiction. It would still count as flash fiction, but it would be a different category. But I know people would disagree with me on that. So, to those people, I'm sorry.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, you're right, it is so fascinating because with every type of like book length as a writer, you have to think about what you can do with that story structure. So, like for a novel, you can sort of let the book unfurl and you can unpack the world and all these different things.

Novellas, obviously, things happen much quicker. I always think of, actually speaking of the pandemic, for short stories, there was this like event that Neil Gaman and Marlon James were talking about short story writing. And so, I was like, yeah, sign me up, whatever. I don't know how much money I paid to watch that.

But they basically talked about for short stories, it's like if you imagine a book has 40 chapters, the short story is like chapters 38 through 40, and you just kind of have to trust, like you don't have time to talk about those other chapters. You just sort of build it into this existing world more or less. But for flash fiction, like how do you approach it? Like what do you think makes a good flash fiction story?

Kristin Loesch:

That is a great question, and flash is so variable, there's so many different styles, there's so many different ways you can do it. You can write a very kind of traditional story that just happens to be very, very short, or you can really push the envelope in terms of format and form, which is really my preference.

So, I've written quite a few flash fiction stories by now. Also, micro fiction and short stories. So, I've experimented a lot with length. But what I really love to experiment with is form. So, you can write a flash fiction story as a grocery list, you can write it as a diary entry.

In my recent novella in flash, which was published in the UK last year — sorry, I should tell you what a novella in flash is. I'm getting carried away, but it's basically a longer book. So, I think that one is about a hundred pages. So, definitely not to the length of a novel but it's a longer story that is written in individual flash fictions.

So, it's made up of tiny stories that could each individually be read as stories in and of themselves, but together, as they appear linked in the novella, they're part of a larger narrative.

And so, in that novella in flash, I mean there's like a Wikipedia entry, there's kind of stories made up of bullet points. There's a miniature biography, there's an interview format, really, I love kind of the variety of form. I could go on about that for a while, so I’ll stop here.

Adam Sockel:

I have to imagine, I have to interview you as a writer, that's where a lot of the fun comes in, is getting to dive into these different types of formats, right?

Kristin Loesch:

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think especially when you're writing a novel, novels are wonderful, and you really lose yourself in them. The world becomes real, the characters become real, but it's often just drudgery, it's looking at the same piece of work over and over again. And the endless scrolling, I mean, you're going through thousands of words, all these chapters, you spend hours upon hours.

Whereas flash fiction, it's really like you don't have very much space to work with. You have so few, that in a way, it's constricting, but then it also feels like freedom because you could do anything. There's no sense of you have to adhere to the rest of this 80,000-word tone. There's nothing limiting you but the actual space on the page, and that's exhilarating.

I mean, I always say that it kind of feels, it's like flying, whereas like novel writing is like pushing a boulder uphill and you're getting there, and there's a huge payoff at the end for sure. But it's a very different feeling as you're writing it.

Adam Sockel:

It's like the difference between being like Hermes versus Sisyphus, like you're flying through the air.

Kristin Loesch:

Oh, I love that.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, but I know what you mean. So, I'm querying a novel right now, and I'm like slowly wrapping my head around what I want my second one to be. And like you're right, when you think about a novel, it is like this idea of being like, okay “Today, I'm going to try and write 800, 1,200, 2,400 words, whatever it's going to be.” And you're like, “And that's going to be the next chunk. And then I'm going to get to the next part of the story.”

Whereas like there is something exciting. I feel like this is kind of like even like journaling too, like with flash fiction, it's like there has to be something exciting with that thought of like, I don't know what I'm going to write right now, but in 90 minutes, I'm going to have a completed thing. Whether you put it out in the world or it's just for you. Like it has to be really exciting so you can sort of do anything.

Kristin Loesch:

Yeah, it's scary in a way because you're always kind of on the edge of your abilities as a writer. You're always kind of pushing yourself and thinking, well, it's not about what I need to do as, as it often is in a novel, it's about what I could do, and I could do anything.

I think a big difference is that in a novel, the reader has certain expectations, of where the story is going to go. And that especially in more commercial fiction, I think in true literary fiction that there might be a difference there. But definitely, in most mainstream fiction, the reader is thinking, okay, this story is going to come full circle, certain questions are going to be answered, certain things are going to be resolved, and you're going to get that feeling of closure at the end of the book.

And whereas in writing flash fiction, in writing short fiction, there's often none of those expectations from the reader's end. And so, from the writer's end, it becomes less about writing for the reader and more about writing for yourself.

You're not burdened by any reader expectations. There isn't a specific place that you need to get to and you could go anywhere. And I think that's been one of the things that's been most exhilarating for me.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. It's almost like when it comes to a novel, it's like you enter into an agreement, which is a weird way of saying it.

Kristin Loesch:

Yeah, yeah.

Adam Sockel:

The reader, if they're buying it, the reader's going to pay 28.95, whatever the price is for a hardback new release, and they're going to give you 12, 14, 20 hours of their time depending on how quick they read. And you're going to give them, like you said, like a fully realized world and story with closure.

But yeah, like when it comes to flash, like it's almost like reading a tweet if it were actually well-written. It's like, I'm going to spend a few minutes with this and like if there's not a payoff at the end, it's like, okay, well, this wasn't for you to have your world changed and like hold on to this.

Kristin Loesch:

Yeah, absolutely. But I would say that the best flash friction can really kind of grab you by the jugular, and really in a super short amount of words and space, it can say so much. So, it doesn't necessarily end, obviously like a novel does in the sense that this character went through this specific arc or whatever it is.

But definitely, it ends in a place where you feel that kind of gut punch and you're like, “Wow, like what is it that I just read?” And often, the words have multiple meanings. The sentences have all sorts of layers to them. So, yeah, it’s an interesting thing to do.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. Well, and so for you, you mentioned having like a piece of work published that is a series of flash fiction stories that kind of became something a little bit more expansive, but they can also be read individually.

Like when you started approaching flash fiction, was it something (we were all just trying to pass the time during the pandemic) you were just like, “I just need something to pass the time?” Or were you submitting these to things?

I guess, like what was your, I don't want to say end game because writing doesn't have to have like a, an end game for anything. But like what was your why for why you were doing these flash fiction experiments?

Kristin Loesch:

Yeah, so it started out just as kind of a way to flex like the creative muscle because I wasn't working on my book, and I didn't want to look at my manuscript while it was with my agent because that's just a rabbit hole you don't want to go down.

So, I needed to find a distraction that still kind of felt like I was still writing. Because I love writing, I love writing just for the sake of it, even writing that will never be read. And when I discovered flash fiction, I was like, oh, and I can do this in bites and pieces.

I have three kids, so especially during the pandemic, they were all at home with me all the time. So, I really only got really short snippets of time in which to write and to do things for myself. 15 minutes here, half an hour there, and flash fiction is something that you actually can write in those tiny moments of time that actually fit. And that's how I really got into it.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. You also mentioned at the very beginning, experimental fiction?

Kristin Loesch:

Yes.

Adam Sockel:

Can you kind of explain what you meant by that a little bit, and how that's connected with your flash fiction experiences?

Kristin Loesch:

Right. So, I will say that I do a lot in short fiction that I would simply not do in a novel, that's probably the easiest way to explain it; is that you can get away with much more in flash fiction. You can really push boundaries in a way that you can't so much in a novel.

And that's partly because of genre expectations as we talked about reader expectations. And I think one way in which I really like to be experimental in flash fiction is kind of from a lexical kind of language, playing with words, playing with how things look on the page and kind of the way that you actually see the design of the words and moving them around.

There's slash fiction that has been written as crossword puzzles. I mean, really you can kind of aesthetically in a way, do anything, and I really love that aspect of it.

Adam Sockel:

So, for people just to kind of understand, I'm trying to think — there's that very famous horror book that it's about a house that's bigger on the inside than on the outside.

Kristin Loesch:

I know which one you mean. House of Something-

Adam Sockel:

House of Leaves.

Kristin Loesch:

House of Leaves.

Adam Sockel:

And so, when you said like experimenting with where the words are on the page and things like that, that was the first thing that came to my mind. And the reason I bring that up is like that is a book I've read it once. I feel like if anyone's ever read it, they read it once. Because it's just like “Oh, you the people who have read it like a hundred times trying to find like the hidden meaning in it.”

But the reason I say that is it's sort of like reading War and Peace (something I've also done) is like it's the thing you want to tell people you've done or are doing, like “I'm currently reading War and Peace.”

Kristin Loesch:

Yeah. And everyone's like, whoa-

Adam Sockel:

Exactly. Yeah, it's like I'm currently reading House of Leaves because people who know that in the book world, like they know it's like an endeavor, but if it's piece of flash fiction, it's like, okay, I can approach this.

I feel like it makes it a much more approachable story because if you were to tell me, like, “I wrote a really creative thing with like the way that the font is built out and the way the words are on the page, also, it's 1,200 words.” I'd be like, “Okay, alright. That’s much more approachable.”

For those examples, like where the words are on the page and things like that, are these ones that you would like hand write out first? Or do you tend to type stuff out like that?

Kristin Loesch:

I tend to type stuff out. I'm not big on actual pen and paper. Just my hand gets very tired and it's very slow. And as I said, in order to kind of maximize efficiency around the kids and everything, I usually type things out.

So, it has to work for me on a typed page. But there's stories that I've kind of written vertically, almost like poetry. There's stories where I've written half of it is crossed out and the words that are not crossed out make a separate story in and of themselves if you just read those words versus if you read every single word from start to finish.

So, there's just lots of little things you can do. And I mean, it's only the tip of the iceberg, but it's really interesting.

Adam Sockel:

Oh yeah. Have you thought about building out like a full-length novel like this? And the reason I ask, there's a past guest on the show, a friend of mine, Dawn Kurtagich, she writes Young Adult Horror. I feel like every book I'm thinking of it as like unique type piece and stuff is all horror.

Kristin Loesch:

I love horrors, no problem.

Adam Sockel:

I'm a big horror reader. So, she has a couple books, and one of them is called The Dead House and it's very epistolary and it goes back and forth, but there's a lot of stuff that is like blacked out that specifically, you don't ever see what those words are. And I asked her once, I was like-

Kristin Loesch:

That's awesome.

Adam Sockel:

And I literally asked her, I was like, “Did you type the words and then black them out?” She's like, “Yeah, absolutely.” She's like, “There's a story under there, you're just never going to see it.” And like, A, that drove me crazy. But B, it was such a creative way to approach-

Kristin Loesch:

Oh, my goodness, what's her name?

Adam Sockel:

Dawn Kurtagich. So, her books are very psychological. There's The Dead House, there is And the Trees Crept In. And then there is a third one is … oh man, I'm drawing a complete blank, sorry. But I'm going to literally Google while we’re talking.

Kristin Loesch:

That's okay. I am 100% going to look her up because that sounds amazing.

Adam Sockel:

Her third book is Teeth in the Mist, which is also, it's very like feisty and creepy.

Kristin Loesch:

Ooh, great title.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. She's really good. But like have you thought about building out a full-length novel like this? Or is it something you're still just-

Kristin Loesch:

I have not yet. I admit that I'm intimidated by that idea. I think I really like to take risks as a writer, so I like to think that I will do something like that one day and that I'm just not ready yet. Like maybe I need more experience in flash.

Maybe I need to read those books like the ones that you just mentioned. Because that would give me a lot of courage, I think, to see what other writers have done with it. But I mean, I love the idea.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. Well, and so this can kind of like get into your novel, The Last Russian Doll. I told you before we started recording, like I love it so much. It's this mix of Russian history and Russian like literature and Russian fairy tales, which is like all right up my alley.

But the way that I kept thinking about it while I was reading it is one of my favorite books ever is The Starless Sea by Erin Morgenstern. And her book is like these stories within stories within stories, and she trusts the reader. Like we're talking about kind of like having this partnership between reader and writer.

And I feel like you did such a wonderful job with that, with like The Last Russian Doll, like “Just keep going. Trust me, this is all going to pay off and it's all going to come together.” And so, for you, like what was your initial kernel of an idea for writing this novel? Like did you know you always wanted to do multiple timelines.

What was the initial thing that fascinated you, whether it was your experience with Russian fairy tales or just the history of the space? Like what was that initial nugget for you to be like, “Okay, this is what I want to wrap my brain around for 8 months, 18 months, however long it was?”

Kristin Loesch:

Oh, it was long, trust me, yeah. But I think for me, it was multiple things. It was kind of an academic, I have a background in Slavonic studies and studying Russian history, so I wanted to draw from that for sure. I knew I wanted to do more reading and write about Russia. And that was definitely part of it.

And I was inspired by a Russian fairytale, which involves kind of Cinderella esque figure who's advised by a little talking wooden doll. And I really liked the idea that this doll that was kind of nondescript was actually so clever, and kind of helping around. And it was just much more than it seemed. And that was probably part of the inspiration as well. I love Russian fairytales.

But really, it started out kind of, I knew that the love story was going to be the thing that threaded it, kind of the strand through the whole book that it all kind of comes together through that. And that's where it started.

Adam Sockel:

And then I'm going to have you describe the book in just a second, but I'm always curious about books that have multiple timelines. Did you write this sort of from start to finish or were you kind of like grabbing different things? You're like, “Okay, I know I want to put something about this here, like this timeline's going to go here?”

Like did you sort of write it in that timeline or was it kind of like scatter plot?

Kristin Loesch:

On the first writing, I did write it from start to finish, but it became a very different thing by the end than it was at the beginning. So, I think probably around the halfway point, things just really started to change, especially around Rosie's storyline in particular, in the way that the two narratives of the two female main characters intersect.

And then I had to go back and then I had to kind of make the whole beginning of the novel, first half of the novel cohere with the second half, and that was quite a monumental task for sure especially with the multiple subplots and different strands of the book.

Adam Sockel:

And so, when we're recording this, is the day after the release of the book, people may not have gotten their hands on it yet. So, can you sort of introduce my listeners to like the sort of the plot of the book and like the sort of structure of it?

Kristin Loesch:

Sure. So, it is a dual timeline historical novel set in Soviet Russia that unfolds over the lifespan of the whole Soviet Union. And it opens with a young woman in England who decides to travel back to Moscow, to her homeland to solve the mystery of her family's murders from many years before, which she is still very much haunted by.

And in the beginning of the story, she doesn't have a lot to go on besides a key left to her by her mother, and some creepy porcelain dolls. And so, that's her storyline. And that takes place in 1991, shortly before the collapse of the Soviet Union, obviously.

And the other storyline, the other main narrative is another female character called Tanya. And she is living in pre-revolutionary Russia shortly before the end of the imperial regime. And she's the kind of wealthy young wife of an aristocrat. And big things are about to happen in her storyline as well. And over the course of the novel, we see how these two narratives interact.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. And I have to say, like I said, I love a novel that has multiple timelines. I feel like it also builds up like as a perfect — like from a structure standpoint as a reader, you always get to the like end of the chapter, it's like, “Oh, it's about to happen.” And then it's like, “Hold that thought.”

And honestly, I know a lot of people get mad about that stuff, but for me, I like I love that structure. And so, I would say for you, when you're reading books, do you like things that are kind of like twisting and sort of-

Kristin Loesch:

Oh, yeah.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah?

Kristin Loesch:

Oh, absolutely, 100%. Like twisty, unexpected, I like to be surprised. I think if I'm going through a book and things are happening, but all those things are things that I foretold or somehow saw coming, but I don't need a twist that kind of like totally rips the rug out from under me. It doesn't have to be like the whole thing is upended, but just something that I really didn't see coming. Something that really sheds the whole book in a new light. That's what I'm after.

Adam Sockel:

I know exactly what you mean. I had a conversation with an author recently about this where I was like a book that's mysterious doesn't have to have like a massive twist at the end, but it has to have something that kind of ties it all together.

And like you said, like I know people always are like, “Well, I guessed all the different things that were going to happen.” And my response to that is always like, “But did you enjoy like reading it?” Like if you enjoyed the story still-

Kristin Loesch:

Yeah, that’s a big question.

Adam Sockel:

But you're right, it gets back to my point about like that agreement of like just trust me as a writer. Like you do have to pay it off by having everything tied together.

Kristin Loesch:

Yeah, absolutely.

Adam Sockel:

So, now, for people who may not be aware of like the literary world, like you talked about how like during the pandemic this book was with your literary agent, and like how long it takes to do these different processes.

So, are you working on another novel now or are you still in like the flash fiction area? Like have you been able to wrap your head around like you did another 80,000, 100,000, 120,000 word book?

Kristin Loesch:

I am totally writing a second novel right now, so I'm in the middle of revisions and it can be a slog, but I'm really enjoying it. This is another historical dual timeline and it's set in 1930s Shanghai and 1950s Hong Kong.

And it's partly inspired by my own family history, my grandfather's early life in northern China. So, it's really exciting and really, really interesting to research.

Adam Sockel:

And are you still adhering to … like are you still doing like flash fiction and experimental fiction stuff sort of in between as like a mental break? Are those things that you're still-

Kristin Loesch:

Yes. In fact, whenever I need a break, whenever I feel like this is becoming a bit too much, my brain needs space to breathe, then I turn to flash fiction.

Adam Sockel:

So, for people who are interested in this space but may be discovering it for the first time, like where do you find … because I know like a lot of times people are like, “Oh, I would love to do something like this, but I never know like where to find prompts.”

So, for you, where do you like seek out prompts or ideas? Or even if it’s like … I know a lot of these are like contexts, but just like where do you seek out the ideas that you want to write about?

Kristin Loesch:

Usually, they come to me spontaneously, typically as I'm kind of walking or driving, doing something that doesn't require too much intense thought on the task and kind of … I don't want to say that my mind drifts while driving. That would be terrible.

But inspiration can come from all places, often the very, very mundane. But for anyone who's interested in flash fiction, I would look up the literary magazine SmokeLong Quarterly because that is some of the best flash fiction out there. I mean, that is just absolutely amazing. So, a shout out to that magazine. I

Adam Sockel:

I love that. That's fantastic. And then like you mentioned loving like reading these types of stories. Like what are the types of books that you're drawn to as a reader personally? Like is it the twisty, mysterious things or like are there specific types of books that you find yourself being like, “Oh, I want more of this specific thing?”

Kristin Loesch:

That's a great question. I read widely across genres. I would say historical fiction obviously is up there. I love historical. I also love thrillers. I think especially if it’s an idea that I haven't seen before, because there's a lot of recycled ideas out there.

But when you come across something new, then you're like, “Ooh, okay, I have to check that out.” And I do also enjoy romcom, especially if I feel stressed, too busy. I'm like a great romance is a lot of fun.

So, I read a lot of things, but definitely, if something is twisty, I love horror. Horror is probably up there with historicals, and historical horrors, that's the best.

Adam Sockel:

So, interestingly, you're talking about both like thrillers and historical horror. I just earlier this week interviewed Alma Katsu who writes both of those things.

Kristin Loesch:

Oh, I'm such a big fan of hers.

Adam Sockel:

A, she's wonderful. Just an incredible human being. And something I found out about her, because two of her most recent novels are like spy thrillers. I found out that she quite literally, she had a 30-year career in the intelligence world, and I had no idea.

And so, I know exactly what you mean. She basically said, she told me after the fact, she's like, “Yeah, sometimes I want to write these like thrillers, like my historical horror novels.” She's like, “But they don't really go together.” Like they keep you on the edge of your seat and-

Kristin Loesch:

Oh, that's interesting. Oh, I got to listen to that episode, I love her. I love her most recent horror book, I think it was The Fervor.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah.

Kristin Loesch:

A good one. Such a good one, yeah.

Adam Sockel:

Absolutely. Okay, so I always ask one last question before I let the author go. Just what is something you would recommend people check out? It could be a book, it can be a TV show. I've had people recommend just go for a walk or I had somebody recommend a protein powder.

Like what's something that you want to recommend that you really enjoy that you think more people should know about?

Kristin Loesch:

Oh, that's a great question. I'm really enjoying The Last of Us on HBO. I am really, really enjoying that show, I have to say. I don't really usually like zombie shows, but that is a great one. So, that's what I'll go with.

Adam Sockel:

I think that's perfect. And honestly, it's so interesting the way that different like forms of zombie content have sort of like cycled through, and there was like a brief respite during the pandemic because everyone was like … and like now it seems to be kind of like back, but it's in a more creative way.

Kristin Loesch:

Yeah, it’s really, really interesting.

Adam Sockel:

Well, Kristin, like I said before we started recording, I absolutely loved your book. There's rarely been a time when a publicist has sent me a pitch that I like responded to faster. It is so good-

Kristin Loesch:

Oh, thank you. That's so nice to hear.

Adam Sockel:

Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Kristin Loesch:

Thank you, it's really been a pleasure.

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Adam Sockel:

Passions & Prologues is proud to be an Evergreen podcast and was created by Adam Sockel. It was produced by Adam Sockel and Sean Rule-Hoffman. And if you are interested in this podcast and any other Evergreen podcast, you can go to evergreenpodcasts.com to discover all the different stories we have to tell.