The Artist's Way with Anna Pitoniak

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Adam Sockel:

You are listening to Passions and Prologues, a literary podcast where each week I interview an author about a thing they love and how it inspires their work.

I'm your host, Adam Sockel, and today's guest is Anna Pitoniak, author of the brand new book, The Helsinki Affair.

This is a classic, phenomenal spy novel, all about a main character whose name is Amanda Cole. She's a brilliant young CIA officer, following the footsteps of her father, who was also a spy during the Cold War.

This is an amazing story. We get into the plot a little bit during the conversation, so I'm not going to spoil that here. What I am going to spoil slash preview is the discussion that we had for this episode.

It's all about The Artist’s Way, and this is something I am very familiar with. It's actually something that I sort of implement in my daily life as well.

But basically, what it is, is it's a process and a book that many, many people have used to kind of get out of their own heads, and spark creativity, and stop being so precious about the process of creating new things. And just getting into a daily exercise of really doing the work.

And it's a really, really interesting process, and it's something that we get into it a lot during the conversation, and Anna took it very, very seriously during the pandemic, and it helped her write this new book.

So, really love the conversation. Again, it's something that I use every day, not even from like a writing standpoint, but just as a way to help me be more creative in my daily job as well.

And along those lines, I want to give you another book recommendation. A book that came out in 2018 by Keiko Agena, and it's called No Mistakes: A Perfect Workbook for Imperfect Artists.

So, it is similar to The Artist’s Way, but it's kind of like a workbook where you go through and there's all these different interesting kind of brainstorming activities, and little worksheets, and different things that prompts and stuff that you can use to just again, like spark creativity and ingenuity and get yourself thinking and creating.

I wanted to give that recommendation on top of when we talk about The Artist’s Way in this episode, because we're releasing this on November 21st. We're getting close to the end of the year. I know a lot of people like to think about New Year's resolutions and just things that they want to change in the coming year.

And a lot of people like to think through how they can be more creative for themselves, whether it's painting, or writing, or learning a new language or whatever it might be. These are two books that I think are really dynamic tools that can help you kind of get in the right mindset.

And if you are waiting, thinking through any of those things, I highly recommend checking out The Helsinki Affair by Anna Pitoniak. It is a wonderful story.

If you would like to get ahold of me, if you'd like some book recommendations, if you'd like to get updates about my dog, if you'd like to see me talk about my Boston Marathon training and fundraising, you can do all those things by following me on TikTok and Instagram, Passions and Prologues on both of those.

And you can always email me and reach out at [email protected]. I love hearing from listeners there as well.

Alright, that is all the housekeeping. I am going to shift seamlessly into this conversation with Anna Pitoniak, author of The Helsinki Affair on Passions and Prologues.

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Okay, Anna, what is something you are super passionate about that you want to discuss today?

Anna Pitoniak:

So, Adam, I'm so excited to be here talking to you today, and as we were chatting a bit in the pre-roll before the interview started, I love the format of this podcast and the idea of getting into stuff beyond just the description of the book.

So, I was thinking to myself when getting ready for this podcast, what is the thing that I'm passionate about that has also had an impact on my writing practice?

Because there are a lot of things I enjoy. Like I like cooking, and I like going for walks, and I have very ordinary hobbies, some of which are connected to writing.

But the thing that I'm really passionate about that had a very direct link to this new book that we're about to publish, The Helsinki Affair, is The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it or if many of your listeners might be, but you're nodding so I'm-

Adam Sockel:

So, I am, but I was going to have you kind of explain it for my listeners who might not be. So, go ahead.

Anna Pitoniak:

Cool. Yeah, for sure. So, The Artist’s Way by the writer, Julia Cameron, is a 12-week program that anyone can do. You could be a writer, you could be a painter, a musician, you could be a lawyer who has a knitting hobby and wants to lean more into it.

But Julia Cameron self-published this book back in 1992, and it became this massive word of mouth hit, and it's gone on to sell millions and millions of copies.

And the basic idea behind The Artist’s Way is that we all have an inner artist of some kind. Some of us really live into our artistic expression and maybe even make money from it.

But we all have this inner artist, even if you're day job is involving spreadsheets and corporate paperwork and all of that kind of thing.

And the program is designed to help you work through some of your, what she calls art scars or blockages that might be preventing you from reaching your freest and most liberated artistic expression. And it's really beautiful idea.

Each week has a theme around recovering some aspect of yourself, so recovering a sense of safety, recovering a sense of power, all of that kind of thing.

And the work involved in doing The Artist’s Way is primarily and probably most famously morning pages, which is the most non-negotiable part of doing The Artist’s Way.

She asks you to spend the first 30 minutes of your day as soon as you're up, maybe even before you've made your cup of coffee, writing free hand in a notebook, any kind of notebook, and just get onto the page whatever comes through you. It doesn't have to be good. It doesn't have to be coherent.

And at the end of the course, you're going to throw those pages out or burn them, you're never going to read them again.

So, it's really good for just getting the gears moving and clearing out the mental clutter so that later that day when you sit down to maybe work on the novel that you're working, or work on the painting that you might be painting, or whatever it is, you've cleared out a lot of that blockage, internal noise, mental clutter that can get in the way of you really stepping into that channel through which creativity passes.

So, that's sort of the long-winded description of what The Artist’s Way is.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. And so, I love it because I feel like the hardest part (this is such like a cliche, but it's true) of starting a creative venture is starting. It's this idea like whether as a writer, I'm also a querying, hopefully future novelist.

Like the hardest part wasn't writing chapter nine or the ending, or figuring out character arc. It's like staring at that blank Word Doc or Google Doc, and you're like, “Oh, yeah, okay. How do I start eating this elephant?”

And the thing like I always think of when I think of The Artist’s Way, which randomly it's from Seth Rogan, who is a funny person to think about from like an inspirational standpoint.

But when you start to see the breadth of work that he has done, whether it's acting, creating, directing, producing, all these different things, he had this thing where he basically said, “At the start of every single writer's room or partnership, we write a hundred ideas down.”

“And we write a hundred ideas down because 89, 95, 99 of them are going to be garbage. But when you put them all down on a piece of paper, you stop glorifying the process. You start doing the stuff.”

So, like you said, you can kind of like clear out your brain and say like, “Okay, what do I actually … like I've got all this stuff floating around here.” We all have like at least a little bit of ADHD going around in here. “How can I center my focus?”

So, I love it so much. I think it's extremely powerful. But I'm curious for you, you're someone who has been in the literary world for a long time. Like what was your first experience with The Artist’s Way?

And I guess also when did you decide like, “Okay, I'm going to actually use this as a tool,” to execute your own creative endeavors?

Anna Pitoniak:

Yeah. So, I started off my career as an assistant at Random House. That was the job I moved into right after college. Actually, briefly, I worked in subsidiary rights at Penguin before moving to editorial.

But I worked at Random House for many years and loved being an editor. And in many ways, it was the best possible training I could have received for eventually turning to writing, because you really hone in on what makes a story work and how those pieces get assembled.

I don't have an MFA, I never attended an MFA program. But it feels like, to me, my equivalent thereof. It was just a masterclass getting to work with these writers.

But I also, had the urge and the itch to write my own fiction, to have my own creative outlet. So, I started writing the novel that ultimately became my first book, The Futures, in the mornings before work.

And it took a long time, but I eventually finished that book. I found an agent, I found a publisher. And meanwhile, I was still working at Random House. I wrote my second novel Necessary People, while also working at Random House.

And eventually, it became a little too much to try to juggle both things. So, about five years ago, I left my job in publishing to focus on writing full-time. And then I wrote my third novel, Our American Friend.

And at that point, I had a sense of I know what I'm doing here. I'm a writer, I've had a few books published. And the idea that I might have some kind of blockage or obstruction in my creative practice just felt anathema to me. It's like, “I don't have writer's block. I've written three books.”

Adam Sockel:

“How could I?”

Anna Pitoniak:

Yeah. I'm like, “I'm great. I don't need help. Like this is self-help and it's for other people, not for me because I'm beyond the help.”

And that of course, it was not true at all because we can always grow and expand and get better as artists and as human beings. And life is just full of change and unpredictability.

So, it was in late 2019, early 2020 as I was wrapping up work on Our American Friend, that a friend of mine, this very wise woman who's very much like a mentor kind of teacher to me suggested, “Have you ever done The Artist’s Way?” I was like, “No, I haven't even heard of it.”

It's interesting to me, just as a sidebar, when I talk to other writers, tons of writers have heard of The Artist’s Way, tons of them have done it. When I talk to friends in publishing, no one's heard of it. Which is so interesting.

So, I hadn't even heard of it. And when she told me what it was, I thought, “Well, I really don't need this. Like I'm good, I'm fine.”

And then it's early 2020 and it's March, 2020, and lockdown arrives. And originally, my husband and I had been planning to spend a year backpacking around the world. We were both sort of taking a little sabbatical from our jobs. Mine is a writer and he works in tech.

And we literally were supposed to leave, we were supposed to fly to Madrid on I think March 25th, 2020. Obviously that trip didn't happen and the whole world was turned upside down and inside out.

So, we wound up spending the first several months of the pandemic with my parents up in Rhode Island.

And I was in this really interesting place as it became clear that lockdown was going to last more than two weeks. Which was this trip around the world wasn't going to happen. I had mentally budgeted not to spend that year writing. I thought, “I'm not going to write a novel this year, because I'll be traveling.”

And I also had this idea that had been planted in my mind from my friend about The Artist’s Way. And I thought, “Well, I'm kind of doing nothing else right now. I'm just sitting around.”

And her idea was, “Oh, maybe this is a thing you might want to do while you travel because it's kind of a nice grounding structuring practice.”

But instead, I was just sitting there in my parents' living room with a little card table propped up in the corner. And I thought, “Okay, I'm going to give this a shot. Like I'll try it for a week, and I'll see.”

And as soon as I began engaging in the exercises, and writing the morning pages, and working through those themes, I thought, “Oh wow, this actually does resonate with me. Maybe I do have these same blockages, and hangups, and just tendencies towards self-censorship or self-judgment that so many of us struggle with.”

So, I began The Artist’s Way, I think it was like March 30th, 2020, a few days after I was supposed to theoretically be traveling around the world. And it was so liberating instantly.

What it really does, this program reinforces for you that writing or any form of creativity is a form of play. You're trying to just reconnect with your childlike self. The childlike sense of imagination and creation.

So, that was really powerful for me to sort of tap back into that mindset, which I'd maybe just let slip by the wayside in the preceding years.

Adam Sockel:

I have so many questions. One, we were talking about before I started recording, you mentioned you listened to the Jenny Jackson episode of the podcast. She also, obviously very heavily involved in the publishing world, and especially from like an editorial side.

And I apologize to everyone listening. Anytime I get to talk to someone who's in the literary world … I spent 11 years in the literary world, so it's very inside basebally for me.

But I'm always curious for someone who … like The Artist’s Way I think of it as this like cheat code to removing the self-doubt, like you said, and like just kind of opening up your creativity and your imagination. And it lets you say like, “Okay, I can do this even though I've never done it before.”

And like I think what I love about being a querying novelist, like having written my first manuscript that I want to try to get out into the world is it's like going back to when I did first graduate from college and I was working, (and I work in tech) and I was unsure.

And so, I would have like when people would gimme feedback, like I wasn't super self-confident because I had never done it before. And now, I've been doing it for 17 years or whatever it is. And I'm like, I know what I'm doing and I feel confident to say like, “This is my recommendation.”

And this is a long-winded way of saying, as someone who was in the editorial side of things, was there ever that self-doubt when you're like, “I am giving this author, oftentimes probably a published author, editorial notes on content.”

Like was there ever that feeling in your mind of like self-doubt, and then is it similar or different to how you feel as someone who is writing your own work?

I know that's very long and an amalgamous question, but really, I'm always curious about that dichotomy between like being an editor and then being a novelist as well.

Anna Pitoniak:

Yeah. It's a really interesting question. And the short answer is that usually no, I didn't feel a great deal of self-doubt when I was working with an author and giving them my editorial feedback.

And I think it's probably true for a few reasons. One is that I'm just less attached to the work, to the novel that I might be editing, to the biography or work of narrative nonfiction that I might be editing because I'm not the creator of the work.

So, I may be able to stand back and be a little bit more objective about what's working in the book, what's not working in the book. I don't have that sense of attachment of, let's say, “I spent six months writing that chapter, how could you possibly ask me to cut it?”

I'm able to more easily access the perspective of the future reader of the book, which, and the future readers thinking, “This part's moving really slowly,” or, “I don't understand what you're talking about here.”

And maybe you're more easily able to access that instinctive sense of what's right, what's wrong, what's working, what's not working when you don't have your own ego caught up in the project.

And it's not to say that my suggestions were always received. They certainly weren't. And often the writer would have their own instinct about what the book needed.

And sometimes our instincts were in alignment, sometimes they weren't. And at the end of the day, it's the author's book, so they get to call those shots.

So, I usually felt pretty confident actually in delivering that feedback. And always tried to do it with a measure of kindness and humility too. Not just blazing in and saying, “This is terrible. Cut it all.”

As a writer … yeah. Sorry, go ahead.

Adam Sockel:

I'm sorry. I was going to say, I imagine it has to do with like preciousness. Like you don't feel like … that's how I feel about my career now. Like I'm much less precious with the stuff I create. So, if someone gives me edits, I'm like, “Yeah, okay. Let's just keep it moving.”

So, I apologize, I cut you off. As a writer … you were talking.

Anna Pitoniak:

No. But as a writer, when you're initially involved in that act of creation, it's so hard to keep yourself separate from the words on the page because they just emerged from you, so they feel like part of you.

And so, when it comes time to critique and edit your own work or to receive that critique and that edit from someone else, whether it's a friend or an agent or an eventual editor, you have to learn to separate yourself from the work somewhat.

It's this very interesting dance where the work … I think initially in my earlier works, as I was beginning as a writer, I thought, “Oh, the work comes from me. It's a reflection of me. It's a reflection of who I am.” And so, when I receive feedback on it, it feels like a little ding to your ego.

And what really gets emphasized in The Artist’s Way is that you're more of a channel for the work than you are the ultimate end creator of the work.

So, there is definitely a strong woo woo spiritual element to The Artist’s Way, which I love. And I know some people probably feel some type of way about.

But I do think it's good to go into The Artist’s Way with an open mind, even if you don't consider yourself into that more spiritual or woo woo realm because there is so many practical exercises that emerge from it.

But when you start to view the writing as something that comes through you, rather than from you, you can hold the writing a little more lightly and treat it as play and it's fun as opposed to something you have to so rigidly keep your hands on.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. It's actually something I was talking about was in a recent episode with somebody. We recorded this in early November, so I don't want to say like recent and like say like last week because it won't be when people hear this.

But we were talking about the fact that when you get them with a writing session, if you go back and you read like a paragraph there oftentimes where you'd be like, “Oh my God, I don't even remember writing that.” It is like the whole like through you situation. And I love that concept.

And so, I want to ask to tie this to your latest book, like thinking about the timeline and understanding how the publishing timeline works, I'm guessing The Artist’s Way experience that you had basically preceded The Helsinki Affair, like writing the latest novel. I assume those two are connected.

Anna Pitoniak:

Yes, exactly, exactly. So, I had so much fun writing The Helsinki Affair in a way that I hope I'm able to replicate further on in life. But I do think that there was some sort of special confluence of circumstances that allowed me to start writing this book.

So, to rewind the tape to March, 2020 again, I was up at my parents' house. I was starting to do The Artist’s Way. I had mentally allotted not writing for the year. I had no pressure on myself, no pressure from my agent or editor to get a book done in the year 2020 or 2021 because I'd be traveling.

And yet I had nothing else to do because I wasn't traveling, I was just sitting there at home. And prior to starting The Helsinki Affair, I'd always really loved spy fiction. It's my favorite genre to read.

I'm just nuts about John le Carre, Graham Greene, Alan Furst, other writers in that, especially the sort of international spy fiction realm where there's a strong literary component to the storytelling beyond just maybe chase scenes and action scenes.

And I had elements of spy fiction in my prior novel, Our American Friend. But I'd always felt a little bit shy and hesitant about launching full bore into the genre because maybe it was a little bit of imposter syndrome. Like I've never been a spy. What do I really know? Can I really tackle this genre?

But within a few weeks of starting The Artist’s Way and just getting a little bit more in touch with that playful, imaginative, childlike side, and at the same time really feeling the doom and gloom of the world around us. I was very lucky, I was with my family, I was safe. I didn't get COVID, I wasn't a frontline worker.

But at the same time, I had family members with COVID, friends with COVID, people who got very sick and, in some cases, passed away from it. There was this sense of the world is a frightening place right now, and it kind of feels like this is the apocalypse, honestly.

There were field hospitals being built in Central Park. There were mobile refrigerator trucks in New York City for the bodies that were overflowing from the morgue.

I remember this very specific day when Dr. Fauci told all of us to start wearing masks. And that was the same day that I found out that a family member was very, very sick. And I thought, “This might be it. This might be actually the end of the world.”

And what came out of that feeling in the days that followed was, “Well, I don't give a shit if I'm not qualified to write spy fiction. I'm just trying to entertain myself right now. So, like fuck it.” Sorry, I don't know if I can swear.

Adam Sockel:

You're good. Yeah, you're good.

Anna Pitoniak:

“Fuck it. I'm going to write this novel that I feel like writing.”

And I had this idea for an opening scene, which is that a Russian defector walks into an American embassy and says, “I know about an assassination attempt that's going to happen tomorrow and you must listen to me and stop this from happening.”

And I had that idea, I had no idea where it was going to take me. I had no idea what plot would ultimately unfold from that. And in the past, I'd always gone into writing my books with a sense of what I was driving towards.

A sense of this is the ultimate conflict, the ultimate conspiracy. I don't know where I'm going to begin the book, but I know where I'm going to end it. And that gave me a sense of enough confidence to start writing because I had some control over the book.

In this case, I had no control. It was like, “I have this idea, I don't know what's going to happen, but screw it, the world might be ending. I might not be here in six months. It might be that no one ever reads this book, so let me just write it.”

And my God, I had such a good time writing that book. I was just making myself laugh, and cry, and feel all kinds of things.

Adam Sockel:

Listen, a while back, Alma Katsu was on the podcast and she got known for writing horror novels, but she spent 30 years in the intelligence world. Like literally that was her life.

And she told me like when we got done recording it beforehand, because she also, has written several like spy novels and she says something so funny to me. And like she's like, “You can repurpose this if you want.” So, I feel comfortable sharing it.

She was like, “The shit that I have seen in my real life, none of you would believe anyway. So, it doesn't matter what you put in a spy novel, as long as it's entertaining. Because trust me, crazier is actually happening than anything you can put on the page.” And I was like, “Oh my God.”

Anna Pitoniak:

I love that.

Adam Sockel:

Makes so much sense. Yeah.

Anna Pitoniak:

I love that. It's so true. There's that feeling sometimes when you read fiction that's too closely based on real life. You're like, “It doesn't feel real. I don't actually buy this.” And you have to be able to buy it. So, that's so great. I love hearing that.

Adam Sockel:

So, you mentioned you had this opening scene, like there's this Russian defector and there're like, “There's going to be this assassination. You got to listen to me.” And then like this isn't a spoiler. It happens. It's in the description.

Anna Pitoniak:

It happens in chapter one. It’s definitely not a spoiler.

Adam Sockel:

I was going to say, not only does it happen in the description of the book, it happens very quick in the book itself.

So, you have this initial, like you're like, “Oh shit, this is how it's going to start.” Like you said before, you've always kind of known where you were going.

What was your artistic process? Did you eventually, like while writing being like, “Oh, this is where it's going to go.” Or did you kind of not know how the book was going to end until you arrived at the end and you're like, “Okay, actually I do have to wrap this up now.”

Anna Pitoniak:

I would say that the process of writing that book was very much like that famous E.L. Doctorow quote about what it's like to write a novel, which is that writing a novel is like driving a car at night. You can only see as far as the headlights illuminate. But you can make the whole journey that way.

I'm sure I butchered that quote, but it's a quote that everyone says because it's a really, really good metaphor.

And that's exactly how it was for me. It's not like every single second of the process was just that pure flow of, “I don't even know what's happening. My fingers are moving and it's coming out of me often.” I did have a sense of, okay.

And then next, Amanda Cole, who's the heroine of the story, the ambitious young CIA officer who does actually take this defector warning seriously, even though her bosses don't, I often had a sense of what Amanda was driving towards, or what she was hoping to accomplish next. But I didn't often know the specific beats of the scene as the scene was unfolding.

So, it's like I always had a sense of what I was pointing towards. And sometimes I would jot down some notes, which is, “Okay, I think after this she's going to have to fly back to Langley and meet with her bosses and explain to them what her suspicion is.”

But the way it unfolds as I'm writing the scene is often somewhat surprising to me. I thought, “Oh, I didn't know she was going to say it that way or I didn't know that her boss was going to push back on her in that regard.”

So, I hesitate to call it outlining because it's never really outlining in the probably typical sense of the word. But I usually do have a sense. And that sense becomes increasingly clear as the book goes on, of what is probably going to happen next.

It's so interesting, like what you were saying before, when you start a novel, that's often the hardest part because it's just a blank page. And theoretically, anything could happen. You could start writing and it could turn into a sci-fi novel, or a mystery novel, or a romance, or a coming of age story. It could turn into anything.

But the more you write, the more the possibilities narrow. You've already written, let's say half the book, it's not likely that the next page, it's suddenly going to turn into a sci-fi novel if you've been writing romance all along.

So, the aperture of possibility becomes narrower as the story goes on. And as such, I probably got a stronger and stronger sense of what I was driving towards the deeper I got into the book.

Adam Sockel:

Give yourself a pat on the back. That is like the smartest way I've ever heard anyone explaining. Because you're absolutely right, like even if people are pantsers as opposed to plotters, which is the words that authors love to use to describe themselves.

Even if you're flying by the seat of your pants and writing whatever you think you want to write at any given page, like you said, like the more you create a world, or create characters, or create an experience or a moment …

Like you said, that you can't have your character be in St. Petersburg and then like time travel an hour later and they're in Paris and they've met the phantom of the opera, and all of a sudden there's a musical going. Like it just doesn't make sense. You do have to scope it down, and scope it down.

And I imagine having your editorial experience as well, does that help you understand like, “Okay, I know I'm going to able to quote unquote go back and get it in post. Like I'm going to I have to leave some breadcrumbs here and there.” Because it's a spy novel, you have to give people a chance to solve it.

Like does having that editorial background bring comfort where you're like, “Okay, I know that there's this oligarch and there's X, Y, and Z that's happening and I got to get someone to like … but I know I can do this later.”

Like do you have that comfort in knowing you're going to be able to edit it later? Or is it something that you just like do.

Anna Pitoniak:

I do. It's interesting, I never thought of it in that particular way, but I do think that my experience as an editor has always given me a certain degree of comfort with the prospect and the process of revision. I'm not one of those writers who dreads revision.

I know some writers think, “I love writing the first draft. I love having it flow out of me, but then I hate having to revise it. That's the worst.”

I always think that actually for me, the most fun part of the process is usually a second draft. Which is to say, I've written a first draft. The first draft is very bad and disorganized and long-winded.

And there are plenty of things that happen in the first draft that don't adhere to any kind of internal logic. Like I might introduce a character in chapter two and then never mentioned them again.

Because the deeper I get in the book, the more I realize, “Oh, that's just extraneous. And I planted a seed that didn't go anywhere.”

So, when I go back through the second draft, I have the story figured out. I have the arc kind of wrestled down and existing on paper, but now, I'm able to actually make everything line up nicely and plug things in and move things around.

And I quite like the feeling of working within that existing constraint. I think that constraint can sometimes breed creativity. It's possible to have too many options. It's possible to have a totally blank page and be scared shitless of what you're supposed to do.

But if you know that, “Okay, now, I'm writing a spy novel, I know who the main characters are, I know that I have to get to this ultimate destination,” and maybe it changes a little along the way.

I find that very, very empowering and very freeing. Because it's like I can't just sit here and consider every option under the sun. Like I sort of have to keep the train moving here because I got to get it to this station next.

So, probably the fact that I'm not frightened of revision because I also, saw as an editor at Random House that even the best writers need revision. And often, everyone needs a lot of revision.

Like I worked with these really brilliantly talented writers, and they all had to revise. And some of them enjoyed it more than others did, but everyone had to do it. So, I never thought that revision was a bad word or a really scary part of the process.

So, yeah, as I'm writing the book, I'll often get a brainwave, maybe 50% through, and I realize, “Oh, I have to plant seeds for this in chapter one.”

So, I'll go back to chapter one, and I'll just write a note to myself within the document, usually in like all caps or bold so that really jumps out when I go back through it, which is like, “Add a character here, fix this, make this happen.” And it's really useful to have that as part of my process.

Adam Sockel:

I don't know if you're familiar with the TV show New Girl?

Anna Pitoniak:

I am. I haven't watched many episodes of it, but yes.

Adam Sockel:

So, this will be really brief, but I was laughing when you were talking about like introducing a character and then like never speaking of it again. There is a episode where one of the main characters, Nick, he considers himself a writer even though he is never written anything.

And then he writes a zombie novel and at the end of the episode is like the cold close, whatever you'd call it. Like one of his roommates reads it and there's this part that I've never forgotten where they read the first few pages and it's so funny and so unhinged.

And there's this one part, and he goes, “And then Annabeth says.” And then he pause, he goes, “That's the last time we ever hear of Annabeth. Annabeth never makes another mention in the entire …” And I'm just like it's such a writer's thing.

And then like along those same lines, I think something to think about as an aspiring writer or anyone who's written novels.

Like I got to interview George Saunders when he released Lincoln in the Bardo. And I jokingly asked him, I was like, “You're one of times like 100 most influential people alive.” I jokingly was like, “Why is this your first novel?” Because he always writes short stories.

And he literally goes, “I didn't think I was good enough to write a full-length story.” And I was like, okay, if George Saunders knows that he needs some help creating a full story, like everyone else can understand that editing isn't a negative thing. It is something that is essential.

Anna Pitoniak:

Not at all. It's not a bad word. I often think that you're writing the first draft sort of for yourself. Like if you read your own first draft, it makes a certain degree of sense to you because you were inside of your own head and body when this was coming out.

But the ultimate goal usually of writing a book is that you want to share it with someone someday. You want to, if only with friends and family, but more likely with a wider audience, with people in your community, with a wider world.

And it's very hard to make yourself known and to communicate. It takes a lot of polishing and finessing.

And the revision process is really a beautiful act of service to the ultimate reader of the book, which is you're trying to take this feeling, this expression, this idea that lives inside of you and make it actually legible and understandable to the outside world.

And that takes so much work, that takes so much revision. It's very hard to bridge the gap between yourself and another person. And revision is part of that process.

I do like the idea of thinking of revision as it's not like wasted effort or it's not like, “Oh, I screwed it up the first time, and why can't I just write the book more efficiently?”

It's recognizing that in revising the book and revising the book and revising the book, even when you're exhausted and you think you can't do another draft, you are creating something really beautiful, helpful for the ultimate reader of the book.

Adam Sockel:

Well, and also, I interviewed Samantha Shannon a long time ago. She wrote this book, Priory of the Orange Tree, which is like 900 pages, just a bonkers sized book. And she told me she removed the equivalent of a novel from this novel.

And I remember at the time before I had written my manuscript being like, “Jesus Christ, that's so heartbreaking.”

And now, as I am editing my manuscript to send it to … I had a literary agent basically say like, “This sounds really interesting, this sounds great. It's a bit long for a debut. Can you cut like 25,000 words?”

And I've been doing that and I'm realizing like, “Oh, like it's not heartbreaking. It's like, if I can remove this and it makes a future reader want to get from chapter three to chapter four, as opposed to being like, ‘This is boring. I'm going to put it down.’”

Like you've done the work. Like you said, it's not like you've done something wrong. It's a part of the process. And it's so, so important.

I love that like all of the authors, I always see who they'll like share the last page of their zero draft and like obviously they'll like blank out the words, but it'll say the end and then they'll be like, “Alright, now, the work begins.”

Like they'll basically say like, “I have my tablet of clay, and now, I start carving away and creating an image out of it.

So, I've taken a lot of your time. I have two last questions for you. One I always end with, but the first one I want to ask that I should have asked before, this is bad hosting.

What is it that you love about spy novels?

Anna Pitoniak:

Gosh, what a great question. I love so much about spy novels, but I think if I had to narrow it down to one thing, it's that, to me, the best spy fiction, and I really put John le Carre is a great example at the pinnacle of the genre. Graham Greene is another name I mentioned, Alan Furst.

These novels are like every really great novel. They're fundamentally about the human condition. They're about being a person with feelings, and relationships, and moral conundrums, and big existential thoughts.

But they take place in the most high stakes possible setting where it's literally life and death, where the fate of the world might be on the line.

And I love a beautiful literary novel that's also just about more ordinary quote unquote “life.” A marriage, a family, a workplace dynamic, whatever it might be. I love that too.

But what I really love about spy fiction is that you get the satisfaction of entering into another person's perspective and plumbing those nooks and crannies of their experience.

But also, there's this constant ratcheting up of the tension because if they decide to walk through door one or door two, it might literally lead to an outbreak of war or something crazy.

So, I love that combination of the subtlety, and the nuance, and those delicious details combined with a constant ratcheting up of tension. So, to me, it's just the best of both worlds when it's done right.

Adam Sockel:

I love that. Okay, last question for you. I always have the guest who has come on give a recommendation of some kind.

It can be a book, it doesn't have to be. It can be a movie, it can be a recipe. I've had people literally recommend like protein powder. It can be literally anything you want to recommend that you think more people should know about.

Anna Pitoniak:

Yes. I am going to very much stay on theme here and recommend a book by the author who I never stopped talking about, which is John le Carre. Every book he wrote has an element of genius to it.

But my favorite book of his, and it's hard for me to choose a favorite, but I do think my favorite of his is a novel called A Perfect Spy. It's a long novel. I think it's 5 or 600 pages.

It is hardly an under the radar mention. I think that it might've been Philip Roth who called it the Greatest English novel written since World War II. Like it's received a ton of praise and acclaim.

But I did find that it was a book that when I came across it, I thought, “No one ever told me about this book. But it is such a fantastic novel.”

It's a spy novel. The central character is himself a spy, and he's involved in these very complex operations. But it's also, the most autobiographical work that le Carre ever wrote. And I would even include his own memoir in that designation.

He did write a memoir later in life called The Pigeon Tunnel, which is now, sort of being adapted or transformed into this documentary that Errol Morris made, which is in theaters right now.

But The Pigeon Tunnel didn't actually disclose that much about his life. Whereas I think la Carre mapped a lot of his own experience, his own childhood, his own upbringing onto the character in A Perfect Spy. So, it gives you this amazing glimpse into the formation of a person like him.

And it's just so good. It's such a juicy, satisfying novel. I think it's a great novel to read, even if you don't necessarily love spy fiction, because it's much bigger. The canvas is a lot broader than just spy fiction. So, I wish I could go back and reread that book for the first time again.

Adam Sockel:

Well, speaking of books, people are going to love for the first time, The Helsinki Affairs.

So, I'm a runner and the way I like to describe novels like yours is like it felt like a race against time, like sprint. Like I was just flipping through pages like, “Oh my God, I need to get to the end of this.” I loved it so, so much. I know all my listeners are going to as well.

And Anna, thank you so much for joining me today.

Anna Pitoniak:

Thank you so much for having me, Adam. I really, really enjoyed this conversation.

[Music Playing]

Adam Sockel:

Passions and Prologues is proud to be An Evergreen podcast was created by Adam Sockel. It was produced by Adam Sockel and Sean Rule-Hoffman.

And if you are interested in this podcast and any other Evergreen podcast, you can go to evergreenpodcasts.com to discover all the different stories we have to tell.

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