Cleveland ain't no laughing matter with Josh Womack

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Adam Sockel:

You are listening to Passions and Prologues, a literary podcast where each week, I interview an author about a thing they love and how it inspires their work.

I'm your host, Adam Sockel, and today's guest is Josh Womack, a local for me here in Cleveland, Ohio. Josh has a book that came out earlier this year called You are not that funny: Stories from Cleveland Stand-Up.

Josh for a while was a standup comedian here in Cleveland, Ohio and wrote all about what that experience was.

It was really, really fun to get to talk to him about this for multiple reasons. One we have a mutual friend that connected us, and as anyone who's been listening to this podcast for a little while knows, I am a big standup comedy nerd.

So, it was great to kind of pick his brain on joke construction ideas, where things came from, and just his overall experiences.

Josh is also a copywriter by trade, so that's something that A, I obviously am very much a part of and in that world, both as an aspiring writer and someone who creates content for a living as well.

So, just really fun to have a kind of inside baseball discussion about how we focus on what content is going to catch people's attention, how we build things out in a way that is kind of eye-catching.

And yeah, just a really great discussion with someone who is very, very local to me. It was a really wonderful time. Had a great time getting to know Josh, and I think you will as well.

I want to give you a book recommendation that is on theme with this discussion. And I'm going to go with Sick in the Head: Conversations About Life and Comedy by Judd Apatow.

Judd Apatow is obviously known the world over for his wildly successful movies, but Sick in the Head is a series of interviews that he did with the funniest people he knows. Comedians, actors, movie writers, and all sorts of different celebrities that you will definitely have heard of.

Judd also is a standup comedian now and again. But these discussions are really, really interesting. The conversations are fascinating.

And again, it's a really interesting breakdown of the construction of comedy and why things are funny and so much more. So, that's Sick in the Head by Judd Apatow.

And again, Josh's book is You are not that funny: Stories from Cleveland Stand-Up that you should check out as well. I'll put a link in the bio there.

Okay. If you want to get a hold of me, you can always find me on TikTok and Instagram at Passions and Prologues. You can also find me by shooting me an email at [email protected]. I love hearing from everybody over there as well.

That is all the housekeeping. I am going to gracefully transition into my conversation with Josh Womack, author of You are not that funny on Passions and Prologues.

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Okay, Josh, normally I start every episode by saying, what is something you're super passionate about that we're going to discuss today?

But right before we start recording, I kind of decided for you, because it's something I'm also super passionate about. You are a standup comedian.

And so, I want to ask kind of how did you get into the standup comedy world? Like what was your first introduction to standup comedy? Or like the larger question, why do you love standup comedy so much?

Josh Womack:

Yeah. Standup was one of those things where I think on most people's mind, it's really one of those kind of bucket list items where maybe they've made their friends and family laugh, or maybe they've been at a party and they've cracked a few jokes and they got a good response.

And I think it's just a matter of do you want to take that next step to actually do an open mic or do you want to try to develop two or three minutes of stage time.

And really it started for me with, I just kind of had the notion in my head. It was something I always wanted try. And me and a buddy from high school just started emailing joke premises to each other.

It was basically like along the lines of the Seinfeld book. Seinfeld wrote a book called Is This Anything? And the book is just like one off sentences of just scribbles from his notebooks to where it's like, is this anything? And it'll just be like a statement.

So, really, like me and my buddy, we started kind of just emailing each other joke premises. And then yeah, I kind of got into standup the way a lot of northeast Ohio comedians get into standup through a guy named Dave Schwensen, teaches a standup comedy workshop.

So, Dave has probably had close to a thousand people come through his workshop. He's been doing it for I think 20 or 30 years now.

And with the workshop, it's funny, like you meet at the Cleveland Improv and you get up in front of seven or eight of your classmates and you try to do standup.

And it's extremely nerve wracking because first of all, trying to do standup in front of seven or eight people is not ideal. And then when you're just starting out, nobody's really good. So, you go up there, you try to fumble your way through a set.

And then Dave would kind of give you some instructions on not really the writing aspect, but if your material was universal enough. If it was something that like every audience could get. Were you talking about relationships and were you talking about getting older?

And then what we ended up doing was we had a quote unquote “graduation” performance at the Cleveland Improv where you invite your friends and family on like a Wednesday night. You get up there for three minutes, you do your stuff, and then away you go.

So, for some people, that improv graduation showcase is just kind of like a checkbox. Like, “I've always wanted to do standup, I did it, I can kind of move on with my life.” And then for other people, it's the start to doing standup for a very long time.

And I did stand up for a number of years. I don't really do it much anymore. I do a lot of writing. I don't get up on stage really that often.

But no, I think standup for me, it really gave me kind of a launching pad into what I do now as a copywriter, to what I do now, as an author. It got me writing consistently.

So, I don't know, to me, like all the good stuff that I have in life, none of it would've been possible without standup.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. So, I'm curious for you, like I assume it's the same view, I have always loved standup comedy, like since I was a little kid. And it was a lot harder to find standup.

Like it would be one of those things where I'd be just like watching Comedy Central like 1:30 in the morning waiting for like one of those Premium Blends or whatever they were called.

But like for you, what initially attracted you? Like was it something that you would watch a ton as a kid or was it something that just like kind of came about like you said when you started sort of chatting with your friend back and forth about premises and stuff? Was it something you watched as a kid as well?

Josh Womack:

Yeah, I mean, obviously I think I kind leaned a little more towards sketch comedy, watching SNL, and Mad TV, and things like that. And I remember I would record all the old SNLs, when you still use VHSs to record stuff, obviously.

But yeah, I would record Mad TV and SNL and I would watch them throughout the week, and I would re-watch my favorite skits. And so, yeah, I would just keep watching those.

And then with standup, I was always just kind of fascinated by guys like Dennis Miller. I thought his brain just worked in such a unique way. He just had such a rich vocabulary.

And that kind of got me to thinking like, “Alright, like do I have enough things to talk about? Do I have a unique enough perspective to actually kind of give this a go?”

And it's funny when you ask comedians about the funniest people they know, they're really never the funniest people that they know. The funniest people they know is a guy around the block that they grew up with. But they're the ones that actually just gave it a go.

So, my buddy that I was actually emailing the joke premises with, in my opinion, he's way funnier than I am. He's way more witty, he's way more conversational. I just happened to try it and that was the only difference.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. I was laughing when you were talking about Saturday Night Live because I feel like everyone in the world can age themselves by saying like who their favorite cast is, because it's always when you're like 12 to 14 years old.

And I remember my best friend and I, we had the Chris Farley and the Will Ferrell best ofs, like back when they used to make like best of VHSs.

Josh Womack:

Of course.

Adam Sockel:

And we wore those things out. Like I can still remember like the Chris Farley commercial, like, “Did you know you were drinking Folgers like crystals?” And like there's all these things. And I know what you mean. Like I would watch those religiously. I still do lines from those various things like today.

But you're right. Like to be a standup comedian, I feel like a lot of it is A, taking that first step and being like, “Alright, I'm going to get up here and I'm going to make a fool on myself for a long time before I get good at it.”

But like I guess something I'm really fascinated in, you talked about like a lot of people's funniest person they know it is usually isn't a standup comedian.

It's like what do you think the difference is between being funny with a group of people and being funny on stage in front of usually a lot of strangers?

Josh Womack:

Yeah. I think it goes back to do you have a story to tell that's universal enough for people to understand because not everything can really be inside baseball or you'll kind of lose the crowd that way.

You think about like Ray Romano. His stuff is about marriage and kind of getting older and his parents and things like that.

Yeah. And I just think there's a big difference of actually kind of riffing if you're at a party or if you're with your buddies tailgating and you crack a funny joke. I think there's a fine line between doing that and then actually sitting down to write a standup set.

So, to actually sit down and to kind of weave a story together, and then to tell a story with surprise endings. And that's kind of, in my opinion, what standup is. It's a bunch of short stories with surprise endings.

So, can you kind of take the audience one way and kind of zig when they think you're going to zag?

Yeah. So, for me, it comes down to the writing aspect of it. Actually putting pen to paper and actually trying to streamline a set so it makes sense for a group of strangers that you have never met before. And there's a good chance that you're never really going to run into again.

Because with your friends and family, you kind of have equity with them. Like they know your personality. They kind of know what makes you tick and your nuances.

With a standup crowd, it's probably the first time they're seeing you and they're not related to you and they didn't grow up in the same place that you grew up with so you kind of have to make it appeal to the masses, so to speak.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. I love where you're talking about like zigging when people are expecting you to zag. But I think of like I think of all the different types of comedians that I love, and they're all very different from one another.

Like I got a chance before he passed away to see Mitch Hedberg with my brother. And like for people who are not familiar, first off, when you're finished listening to this, go look up Mitch Hedberg jokes because they're so absurd and short.

Like he'll just write a line like, “I think Pringle's original idea was to make tennis balls.” And like-

Josh Womack:

Perfect.

Adam Sockel:

It's perfect. It's like a perfect line. There's no wasted fit.

But then I also think there's something so unique about like there's this comedian, Nate Bargatze, who's very, very popular. And he is very clean. He doesn't swear, he doesn't like tell like blue jokes. But he's from a very small place, I think in Tennessee. And like he'll talk a lot about that in his sets.

And I'm always impressed that like comedians who can find a way to make people understand where he is coming from, who have no …

Like you and I could spend an hour. In fact, before we started recording, we were talking about Cleveland things and the Browns and our football team. We could do that. And it would just be for you and I.

But like I do always think it's really impressive, like you said, to make people be able to relate to stories about where you're from that they might not be able to understand otherwise.

Like for you, did you kind of try to keep your comedy about Northeast Ohio, about Cleveland specific, or like what paths were you taking as a comedian?

Josh Womack:

Yeah. Now, that I look back on it, I think in hindsight's always 2020. But I think I definitely leaned on the crutch of like local jokes when I was starting out.

And I think some of us do that because we're just looking for laughs and we're just looking for material.

I would say, and it's funny, like I'm 40 now, and you look back and that was like the one thing that I wish I would've done better was I wish I would've written for like a larger audience.

Because obviously if I make these jokes in a Cleveland setting, Cleveland people will get them and it's great. But if you drive an hour away somewhere, or if you drive to Pittsburgh or something, you can't do those jokes. So, you're kind of eliminating a good portion of your set.

But I think the local jokes kind of have their time and place. So, I think it's a matter of not relying on them too heavily, but kind of like sprinkling them in throughout.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. It's also like an ability, like you said, if you were going to perform outside of Cleveland, when like the moment you say you're from Cleveland, I feel like our city still has a very — like people have a negative connotation of Cleveland.

It no longer deserves it. It's a much, much more wonderful place to live than it used to be even 10 years ago.

But like I do think if you make those jokes about Cleveland to other places, it's like you're taking the power back. Like, “You can't make fun of me. I'm making fun of me.”

Josh Womack:

Yeah. Yep, totally.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. So, you mentioned before we started recording how like stand comedy has really helped with your career now, as a writer and a copywriter.

And I'm curious, kind of like what the translation is for writing on stage to writing for brands or writing a book. Like and how did you take the skills and things you learned on stage and transitioned it over?

Josh Womack:

Yeah. So, I think I'll start with just kind of copywriting in general. I think with copywriting when copywriters get hired, most creative directors kind of look for your way of thinking. They kind of want to see how your brain operates a little bit.

So, usually what you'll do is you'll have a kind of a digital portfolio, so to speak. You'll have a website with maybe some print ads that you worked on, or maybe some social media ads and things like that.

So, I read a book a while ago, it's called Copywriting Is. It's by a copywriter across the pond named Andrew Boulton. And he said copywriting is a wink amongst screens, which I thought was really good.

So, it's almost like a just like a slight nod. It's almost like you're letting the consumer in on the joke a little bit. Especially if you can play with like a funny brand. You're kind of letting the consumer or the customer know, it's kind of like okay not to take everything kind of so seriously.

Obviously, you want to sell the product, but at the same time you want to give your brand a little bit of personality.

And I think it's actually a reason why a lot of comedians kind of fall into copywriting a little bit. Just because they are looking at the world like kind of through a little bit of a different lens. They're kind of looking at it as a way of like, “Okay, there's something inherently funny here. I just got to figure out what it is.”

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. For people who've been listening for a while, they know I'm a marketer, I work for a tech company, I do marketing. And like before we started recording, I was working on producing what will be our new monthly newsletter.

And like I know exactly what you mean because every single one of us gets 150 emails a day, whatever it is. Like we all get so many emails.

So, it's like, how can I write something? Or how can I create, like you said, a social media ad where people are scrolling through the Instagram or LinkedIn or wherever they are. And like how can I get away from them to pause for two seconds to actually look at this?

And I love how what you were saying about how comedians are probably better at that because it's working on those like tight like what five words can I say to capture your attention.

And like I guess like I tend to be an over writer and then like pair down. From a copywriting standpoint, like how do you approach creating the things that you are working on from brand to brand or when you're just trying to produce your work?

Josh Womack:

Yeah. I think in the beginning, I think I probably wrote a little too much. I was like an over writer so to speak, like you were saying.

But it was funny another copywriter kind of came aboard the agency and I was always really impressed with how she kind of kept her word counts low, and she was just able to say the same thing I did, but she was always able to say it in like three or six less words.

Like she would add like an emoji or like she would be able to just say it so much more simpler.

So, I think over time, I am like very cognizant of word counts now. So, like what I'll do is when I write an email or something, I'll kind of run it through like a character counter or a word counter. And if it's at a hundred words, I'll be like, “Alright, can I get this thing to like 85 or 90 words? Can I shorten it just a little bit?”

And then there's all these rules obviously with a billboard shouldn't be more than six words because you don't want people to get in the car accidents while they're trying to read your billboard. And you work in marketing, so you kind of hear all this stuff, I'm sure.

But yeah, I think over time, copywriting has definitely helped me kind of write a little tighter and as it kind of like streamlines into writing books, like I'm very cognizant. I don't want to bore anybody.

So, that's why like even with my books, the chapters are really short. They're really tight. And at the same time, like I don't know if I really have that much to say.

Adam Sockel:

No. I think my favorite thing about being in marketing … and again, I work for a tech company. We sell a sales tools. There's a ton of salespeople in our company, and they're all wonderful, but like they laugh because I am the sole creator of content for our company.

But even still with the amount of stuff I produce, like I feel like most of my day is staring at the wall and being like, “How can I make this 50 words, 22 words instead?” Or like, “How do I say this in a better way? Or how do I come up with a tagline for this campaign that is three words, and is funny, and like makes you stop?”

And it's like I feel like so much of writing, and I imagine this is probably true for writing for standup as well, but for like for writing novels or for like doing copywriting. Like so much of our job is just like sitting there staring and being like, “How can I do this thing in a more succinct way?”

Josh Womack:

Yeah. I totally agree. It's almost like if you write for an hour a day, you're spending those other 23 hours kind of sharpening the ax, so to speak.

And no, I am totally with you on that because what I'll do is I'll try to write … and it's funny, like I'll go off on a little bit of a tangent here, but I always laugh when I'm on like LinkedIn and I see people who are like, “I try to get in 10,000 steps and I try to write for four hours uninterrupted.”

And I'm like, “Who are you robots that are writing?” I got maybe 45 minutes like straight through. And then I need a break. And after that initial 45 minutes, like I might be able to write for another 20, 25 minutes. And then for me, it's just diminishing return.

So, like you said, if I can write an hour to 90 minutes a day, I usually feel like it's a pretty good day.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. I do believe in like giving myself blocks like about an hour, because if I see that I have a meeting coming up in like 20 minutes, I'm like, “Well, that's 20 minutes that I'm just going to not do anything and not be productive.”

But you're absolutely right. There's this like perfect zone, like you said, like 60 to 90 minutes for me too, where I'm like, “If I schedule four hours to write something, I'm not going to do it.”

It is almost like I need the like … what is it? Deadline for actions, they always say it's like, I need to know, like okay, I have 90 minutes or I have 60 minutes. But if I only have 20, forget about it. If I have four hours, forget about it. It's not going to happen for me.

But I'm curious, so for you as someone who writes as part of your job, and then like you said, you're also an author. Your latest book is out, You're not that funny. Like do you find ways to separate the two?

Or do you find like after a day, “This is my problem, as also an aspiring author is like, I write all day and then I get done writing and I go for a run and we'll eat dinner.” And I'm like, “Okay, now, I got to write more.”

How do you kind of delineate between like work, work and like enjoyment writing?

Josh Womack:

Yeah. So, I think one of the things I do is I just try to get the book stuff done before the workday starts. And there's a ton of stories of people who've done it that way.

I think John Grisham did that for a number of years, before all his … I think he was a lawyer before he was a bestselling author. But he would try to get in that writing before all the emails and all the meetings came and things like that.

And honestly, like the goals that I strive for are really, really small. So, Stephen King writes 2,000 words a day. So, that's like elite level. That's like Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Steph Curry, kind of all rolled into one.

So, I look at that number and I say 2,000 words, and I think to myself, “I'm going to try to do five or 10% of that.” So, I'm going to try to write a 100, maybe 200 words a day.

And that's really not that much. But it's nice when you're working on a Word doc and you look at that lower left hand corner and you see that word count. And you see it start to increase.

And once I kind of feel like that's in a good place, I can kind of shut that off. And then I can go on to obviously my copywriting work.

And then for like the copywriting work, say you're writing an email. So, maybe I'll write the subject lines and the headlines, but then I'll stop before I have to write the body copy of the email. Like maybe I'll save the body copy for tomorrow.

So, I mean, I'm a big, big fan of just slow and steady wins the race and just continually chipping away.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. So, for your book, can you kind of give my listeners an introduction to You're not that funny? Like why you wanted to write it, how it came to be, and all that good stuff?

Josh Womack:

Yeah. So, it was funny when I was writing my first book, the first book is called I'm Not A Copywriter. But even when I was like halfway through writing my first book, I kind of knew this second book was going to happen.

I just thought like, “Okay, I think there's some decent stories here to tell.”

And then it was funny because when you're on Facebook, you always get those Facebook memories that pop up.

And most of them are mildly depressing because they'll remind you of like the stupidest posts that you wrote. Like something you thought was funny 8 to 10 years ago, which is just almost cringe worthy today.

But it was funny, every other Facebook memory that I had was like a standup flyer of a show that I was trying to promote.

And it was always a flyer at like a bar show, or a show over on the east side, or at Brother's Lounge kind of on the Cleveland Lakewood border. And I was like, “Man, this was such a huge, huge part of my life. Like could I kind of string together enough stories here to make an actual book?”

And I knew it wasn't going to be a long book because when I did stand up, it was really, I kind of concentrated on the years 2010 through 2014. So, those were kind of like the thick of it when I was really, really into it.

But yeah, I would say like those Facebook memories, they kind of put like the seed in my head like, “Do I have something to say? Is there something here?”

And then yeah, you kind of just go back in the memory bank and you just try to think of stuff that fans of standup would like and even non-fans of standup. And that's kind of how it came together.

Adam Sockel:

Do you find yourself getting that itch anymore? Like, “Oh, I kind of want to like get back at this. I want to do something. I want to go like make myself uncomfortable for a little while, see if I still enjoy the process.” Like do you find yourself still interested in getting up on stage?

Josh Womack:

Not really. And I think what the book helped me do is it kind of helped me almost tie a bow around standup. It was kind of like a nice way to kind of say, “Okay, like I acknowledged that part of my life. And now, I can be proud of something physical that I created.”

But think what's really nice is I transitioned from standup to copywriting. So, even though I wasn't on stage anymore, like I still got to flex creative muscles. And that's still what I get to do today, which I really, really appreciate.

It's still kind of like using the same kind of creativity and kind of like the same side of your brain, so to speak. So, even though I'm not doing it on stage, like I'm still kind of doing it in like I guess you could say a more specific way now.

Adam Sockel:

Has having experienced doing standup comedy changed the way that you watch and view standup comedy?

Josh Womack:

Yeah, I think anyone who's done standup probably has some snobbish opinions when they see other standups, especially just from the joke writing process. Like sometimes you can see a joke and you can see the punchline coming from like a mile away.

And there's nothing wrong with that, but I think standups admire other standups when they write something that's like, “Oh, I wish I would've thought of that.” Or, “Oh, that's a joke that I wish I would've written.”

So, I think standups will always kind of that way about them. So, yeah, it definitely affects how you watch standup.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. Actually, my boss, my VP of marketing, she and I joke that the reason we're good at marketing is because we hate marketing. And so, like it takes a lot to act it. Like it takes a lot for us to actually be like, “Oh, that's a really good idea. How can we play off of that?”

Because most of the marketing I see as a marketer, I'm like, “That sucks so much. I knew where they were going with that.” It's like I know exactly.

I assume people who have the experience in stand up comedy, like much tougher crowd, just like marketers and copywriters are much tougher like to please with a line.

But when you do get one that works, we're the people who are like, “Oh my God, well done. That's really good.”

Josh Womack:

Oh yeah. It's funny, you definitely, you give props where it's due.

And it's funny, like just, I guess from a marketing perspective, like it's funny now, how like I'll pay attention to like radio ads. You know what I mean?

And I'll actually listen to them, and I'll think like, “All right, was this good? Was this bad?” And you always ask yourself, “Could I have done better with it?” So, I totally get where you're coming from.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. And then the other insane end of the spectrum is when you see like there's the Oatly that oat milk company like they do insane ads where they're like, “What would be dumber than a oat milk company creating a Times Square billboard ad, two of them.” And like there's a second ad, like there's a second billboard right next to this.

Like those are the ones where people will be like, “Did you see this?” I'm like, “Yeah, but I also had a probably million dollar budget for that. Like it's a little bit different.”

Josh Womack:

Of course. Of course, yeah.

Adam Sockel:

So, I always end with having the author who has come on, give a recommendation of any kind. It can be a book, it can be a TV show. I've had people recommend going for a walk. What is something you want to recommend that more people should know about or should do?

Josh Womack:

Well, I'll always recommend going for a walk because that's just a great way to clear your head and kind of loosen the cobwebs that are between your ears.

Okay. I'll give a book recommendation. There's a great book by an author named Steven Pressfield called The War of Art. And it's not The Art of War. That's the more popular book, but it's just flipped. So, it's The War of Art.

And basically, Steven Pressfield is an author who didn't really start writing consistently until he was, I think in his early 30s. He wrote a bunch of screenplays, nothing ever got picked up. And I think the first time he got something published, I think he was in his early 50s.

And his book is just like a really nice, it's almost like a handbook for any creative. Whether you're a designer, whether you're a copywriter.

But then he does a great job of like streamlining it. So, if you're an entrepreneur, you'll get something out of it. Or if you want to start your own nonprofit, you get something out of it.

And it's a really lean book and it's kind of a nice kick in the butt. I read it about once every year, year and a half. It's a really short read, only about 120 pages. The chapters are really, really short.

But The War of Art by Steven Pressfield. If you're feeling a little lost creatively, I definitely recommend giving that a read.

Adam Sockel:

Awesome. I'm definitely going to check that out. And all my listeners should also check out, You're not that funny by Josh, it's fantastic. And you'll get a little bit of an insight into our world here in Cleveland that we love so much.

Josh, thank you so much for joining me today.

Josh Womack:

No, super appreciate it, man. Go Browns.

[Music Playing]

Adam Sockel:

Passions and Prologues is proud to be an Evergreen podcast and was created by Adam Sockel. It was produced by Adam Sockel and Sean Rule-Hoffman.

And if you are interested in this podcast and any other Evergreen podcast, you can go to evergreenpodcasts.com to discover all the different stories we have to tell.