Just keep your head above....swim with Clementine Taylor

[Music Playing]

Adam Sockel:

You are listening to Passions and Prologues, a literary podcast where each week, I interview an author about a thing they love and how it inspires their work.

I'm your host, Adam Sockel, and today's guest is Clementine Taylor, debut author of the brand-new novel, Something About Her.

It is such a wonderful story about relationships and coming of age and is set in my favorite place on Earth, Edinburgh, Scotland.

In this story, we meet asexual characters who are going through some things, as you might expect from their childhood, and they find each other and rediscover a lot of things that they love about themselves and the world around them.

It is all about tenderness, and fears, and hopes, and longing, and all of the emotions that we all feel many times for the first time when we are at that university age.

Absolutely loved the book, and I loved this conversation with Clementine.

Her passion is for swimming, something that I have a love hate relationship with as a runner. We talk about how this passion of hers kind of got uncovered, what she loves about it, and then my own swimming stories as well.

Clementine was one of those people that from the jump, I felt like I had met and found a new friend. We just hit it off instantly. Just a really wonderful human being, and I can't wait to keep chatting with her as the years carry on. Incredible human being.

And speaking of books that are kind of small stories with big emotions, my wheelhouse, I want to talk about Only Love Can Break Your Heart by Ed Tarkington. This is a story that is set in the late 1970s and 1980s. It is a story of a boy named Rocky who worships his older brother, Paul.

And his older brother has some issues in life. He has some stuff that he struggles to deal with. And there are a few troubling moments that happen that causes his older brother to basically disappear and move away and leaves Rocky to kind of pick up the pieces.

Their family goes through a number of trials and tribulations from getting a fair amount of money, to losing that money once again, to being kind of trapped next to these rich neighbors who have an impact on their lives that they just can't get out from underneath.

It is a story that I think every person can relate to because we never know what others are going through. And we all have those people in our lives that are struggling with things that we wish we could help them, and we just don't know how.

Only Love Can Break Your Heart by Ed Tarkington definitely ripped my heart out and put it back together slowly. The perfect story for me. Again, a small story with big emotions, small town, and the relationships that are all intertwined amongst one each other.

So, I think you'll love Only Love Can Break Your Heart, and Something About Her by Clementine Taylor is one that I know you'll love. And it is just out today if you're listening to this on November 8th when the podcast gets released. So, be sure to check it out.

If you're ever looking for more book recommendations or just want to have a chat, you can find me at [email protected]. And you can see me talking about books all the time on TikTok, YouTube, and Instagram. Passions and Prologues is the name there as well.

Alright, that is all the housekeeping. I'm going to let you get to this discussion with Clementine Taylor, author of the brand new Something About Her on Passions and prologues.

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Okay, Clementine, what is something you are super passionate about that we're going to be discussing today?

Clementine Taylor:

Okay, Adam. Well, firstly, thanks for having me on. I am so pleased to be here. This was like actually one of the hardest questions that I've ever had to answer.

But I've been having a think about it and I found it very hard to choose. I actually in my head was comparing it a bit to Desert Island Discs. Do you ever listen to that where you're like trying to choose your tracks?

And I was like, “Oh my gosh. It's like trying to choose one track.” Because I have some like really long-term passions, like cooking and my family and singing. I loved your episode with Isa Arsen. It was great.

Adam Sockel:

Oh, thank you.

Clementine Taylor:

And then some more recent passions, like knitting (I took up over the pandemic) and gardening.

But all this to say, I've had a long, hard think. And the thing that I am super passionate about that I would love to chat to you about today is swimming.

Adam Sockel:

Oh, see, this is why I don't ask ahead of time, because I never know what's coming and I'm so excited. Okay, let's get into it.

You said this is a more recent passion, right?

Clementine Taylor:

It is, yeah. It's very recent actually. And when I was thinking back to school when we had to do swimming lessons at school, I was reminiscing about the fact that I would do anything to try and get out of swimming.

And nowadays, I literally do anything I can to try and get to the swimming pool. So, yeah.

Adam Sockel:

I'll share my own experience with swimming.

Clementine Taylor:

Please. Yeah, I was going to say, are you a swimmer as well?

Adam Sockel:

I am not. I have some very funny stories about … I mean, I can swim. I grew up with my parents had an above ground pool in our backyard, but it was like four feet deep, so it wasn't like super deep.

And we basically played like basketball in it and like … but we could also stamp, because I didn't have to swim too much. But I have like a more recent example.

But before we get to my stuff, what got you? Like when did you realize like, “Oh wait, I actually really, really like doing this?”

Clementine Taylor:

Yeah. Okay. So, in January of this year, I actually broke my foot. And it wasn't even through anything exciting. I just fell down the stairs.

It was really tragic actually. I was like running for the train to get to my friend's birthday party, and I just tripped down three stairs, landed on the hard floor, and I broke my foot. I'm playing a tiny violin here. No, it was actually fine.

And it was kind of good timing actually, because I was going out to Italy for three months placement in March. And I broke it exactly I think like seven weeks before I was going to Italy. And it takes seven weeks or something to heal.

So, I was just starting to walk. So, it was really honestly like one of the best times I possibly could have broken my foot ever.

But when I was coming towards the end of the recovery, I was feeling quite low because exercise has always been a real means of like joy for me. And just a really meditative thing. Like I usually go running every morning.

And someone said to me like, “Why don't you just try swimming? Like get a taxi to the pool and just swim because solo impacts and will probably help your recovery because it's good for your blood circulation.”

And I just thought like, “That is such a good idea, so why haven't I thought about that?”

So, I think four or five weeks in, I would do exactly that. I would go to the pool, in the car, in the taxi, or someone would give me a lift. And it really saved my mental health during that time because I think I was getting into a bit of a low place.

And I'm so kind of have such a kind of amazing association with swimming pools now, for that reason. And it's just grown and grown my love for it. I go like two or three times a week now, which is hilarious because I used to hate swimming and now, I can't live without it.

And I don’t know how it works in the US but it in the UK as well, we have a lot of trouble with, I think half of pools in the UK, like public pools are kind of facing cuts or closures because of the energy bill crisis.

And I think of course, like swimming is one of those really kind of natural things for humans to do, were so designed to do it. And I feel now, after discovering this love for it, that kind of everyone should be able to have access. But I know I'm extremely privileged to have access to a pool.

So, that is how I got into it. Yeah.

Adam Sockel:

So, there's this book that came out in 2018 called, is it The Lido or is it The Lido?

Clementine Taylor:

The Lido. Oh my God, it's so funny. Yes, I love that book by Libby Page.

Adam Sockel:

So, okay, I want to ask you about this because … so, we do have, like I think it sort of depends here in the states, like where I was doing my swimming, and probably, I will share my story in a bit-

Clementine Taylor:

Please. Yeah, I want to hear it.

Adam Sockel:

… the pool I was using was part of like a health and fitness center that I paid monthly dues to. So, we do have public swimming like pools in the United States.

Where I live in Cleveland, in the Midwest, they're definitely only open in the summer because it gets-

Clementine Taylor:

Freezing.

Adam Sockel:

Exactly. So, but the light in the book, which I loved, so wonderful. It was like almost open year round. So, can you kind of tell me about … this is such like a nerdy question, so quickly, and I don't care.

Clementine Taylor:

Please. I love it.

Adam Sockel:

Because that's part of that book is they struggle with funding to keep it open. So, what is it like, are they open year round? Are you swimming outdoors every day? Like break this down for me.

Clementine Taylor:

Okay. So, I am so lucky because I'm still a member of the university in Oxford. I get free access to an indoor swimming pool which is just like a 15-minute cycle from where I live.

But if you are not a member of the university, you can pay to be a member, so you'd have like an annual membership fee or whatever.

And I'm going to geek out on this later on, I listened to loads of podcasts and read the books about swimming now, and The Lido being one of them that I read relatively recently.

And I think how it works with lidos in London or around the country is that they're open all year round. So, I know I listened to this podcast called The Tidal Year by Freya Bromley, who's written a book of the same name. And she often goes to Brockwell Lido.

And I think how that works, although I'm not a hundred percent sure, so don't take it as gospel, is that you pay like a fee to go in. But I might be wrong and some of those might be free. I think some of them might be state funded. I'm not actually a hundred percent sure.

Adam Sockel:

So, for these ones that are open year round, like how cold does it get?

Clementine Taylor:

Really cold.

Adam Sockel:

That's what I was going to say. Like I know you guys have similar weather to us here in the states. Like well, how do people … like if it's 32 degrees is freezing here, but if it's like in the 50s Fahrenheit, how are people swimming?

Clementine Taylor:

I know. I think that some of the pools are heated.

Adam Sockel:

Okay.

Clementine Taylor:

But yeah, this is another thing that I was wanting to talk about later in this podcast, and I can't say this because I swim in an outdoor pool, and obviously it's like a very recent thing for me, but something that keeps coming up is this idea of like really seeing the seasons changing as they're going swimming in the lidos.

And so, being able to kind of not just be at one like with the water, and to be in the water, enjoy being in the water, but also, to kind of be in this really beautiful natural environment where the colors of the leaves are changing, as we were just talking about earlier.

Like you see the autumn coming, you see the winter coming, and you really get this sense of just being immersed in nature. And I think that's one of the really beautiful things about these lidos as well being open all year round.

Adam Sockel:

I think this might be further proof that swimming isn't for me, because so I'll tell my story now, but I basically, the point is like I'd never have a moment to like look around and be like, “Wow, my interest.”

So, I'm a distance runner. I think I talk about it somewhat frequently on here, but I run marathons. My brother and I just ran a marathon a couple weeks or-

Clementine Taylor:

And you're running Boston, aren't you, in the spring?

Adam Sockel:

Wow. You are like my favorite person. Yes, I haven't even talked about this on like the podcast yet. I'm running the Boston Marathon in the spring. I'm fundraising for it, so everyone listening, sorry, in advance, you're going to get links to me asking for money.

But two years ago, my brother was running his first marathon in Nashville, which is like six hours south of where I am now. My father who is 74, was running his like fifth half marathon. We're one of those families, like very annoying. Yes.

So, I was planning on running the marathon with my brother and I hurt my hip. Throughout training, it happens. Runners, we all get hurt because the aforementioned pounding on the ground. So, while I was rehabbing, my physical therapist was in the same building as where I was working out.

And I asked, I was like, “What can I do to keep up my cardio?” And she's like, “We have a pool here.” I was like, “Okay, I will try it.”

A, nothing has ever been more humbling in my entire life to go from being a admittedly very fast runner, to being so bad at swimming.

The first, I remember, I'll never forget this, like I was going down and back, I had to use flippers because I was just like I needed some form of like cheating. But I was swimming, I got smart, I could do like down back, down back and then got, now, I need to break.

And there were these like old like 80-year-old men just doing their little like casual back and forth, never stopping. And I'm sitting there and one of them finally stops and I'm like the type of breathing where you would look at me and be like, “Is he okay?” I was like …

And like I look at this man and I was like, “Does it ever get easier?” And he looks at me just total deadpan, the best comedic timing of any person I've ever met, he goes, “Not with the way that you're doing it.” And I was like-

Clementine Taylor:

Oh, fun.

Adam Sockel:

And then they start laughing and he goes, “But you can take solace to knowing you're working harder than anyone else in the pool.” And he just so thoroughly like thrashed me in the funniest way possible.

And so, for a while I was going, I got okay, never good. But like the moment my physical therapist was like, “You can start running again.” I was like, “And off we go.”

But you talking, so the reason I brought it up was I was laughing when you're like people want to be outside and enjoying like the changing of the seasons. All I could think of with every lap I was swimming was like, “When can I get out of this?”

Clementine Taylor:

“When can I stop swimming and start running?”

Adam Sockel:

Yeah.

Clementine Taylor:

That is so true. I really completely agree though. I think swimming is such good exercise and it is so timing and it's such a …

Okay, I actually looked this up in preparation for this podcast, because I kind of wanted to think about like why it's so difficult. Like it exercises every single muscle group in your whole body. And obviously, it's like amazing, amazing for your health. If you are like lucky enough to be able to swim and have access to a pool, it's …

So, I listened to this Michael Mosley podcast called Just One Thing. And there's a whole episode about swimming I heard the other day.

And it says about how good is your heart and your reaction times, it improves the elasticity of your arteries and your memory because it increases all the blood flow to your brain.

Good for your joints, which is probably why you were doing it for recovery because it has anti-inflammatory, and it works with all the muscle groups. High resistance, which is why it's so tiring.

I know how you feel. I used to come out the pool and have bright, bright red. I mean, I go like a cherry when I exercise. And I always at school used to get this little pale bit here above my lips. And that is exactly what used to happen to me when I used to get out of the pool. At first, I would be so bright red.

It's just amazing exercise. Amazing for your body.

Adam Sockel:

And see this is why I wish I liked it more because I know how good it is. Like I mentioned my dad, who's a runner. He's also been a racquetball player like his whole life. He's had both of his shoulders replaced. He's having a hip replacement like coming up in a couple of months or actually next month.

And it's like I know that I'm staring at my future. I know this, I inherently know like I should run, I should cycle … or no, I'm sorry. I should swim, I should cycle.

So, was it something when you first started, you were instantly like, “Oh, I love this.” Or did you have to learn to love it because I'm seeking — this has now become a therapy session for me.

Clementine Taylor:

No, this is great. I was going to say, this is what I was hoping for, but it's obviously not that.

Adam Sockel:

Beautiful.

Clementine Taylor:

I think because for me it was associated so much with, it was the only exercise that I could do. That I just kind of immediately loved it because it was giving me those endorphins which as a runner you'll know are so key.

Adam Sockel:

Yes.

Clementine Taylor:

But yeah, before that I was also a runner. I mean, definitely not as serious as you, but basically running was the only exercise that I would do.

And my parents always say to me like, “You need to be so careful you're on knees and make sure you're like running on the grass and not just on the concrete or the tarmac or whatever.”

And then when I was doing physio for the broken foot, the physio said to me, “What do you normally do?” And I said, “I usually run five or six days a week.” And he said to me, “You should really cross train.”

I'm just sort of emphasizing what you've already said, but you should do weight sessions during the week, which I never do because I have a whole thing about going into gyms, which I won't go into. And you should swim and as you said, cycling is really good as well.

But you need to make sure you're doing that impact training as well as the cardio stuff because it actually lowers — well, it doesn't lower your bone density, but it's really not good for your bone density to just run, which I didn't realize before this injury.

So, I guess it was like one of those things that when you love running I so understand. It's just one of those things that you don't really want to do anything else because nothing else feels as good.

But yeah, I mean, I would encourage you to give swimming another try because I think it can be really great once you get past those initial stages of feeling like you’re going to die.

Adam Sockel:

Well, so part of it for me was, and this will make you laugh as someone who swims now, and other people can just picture in their head. Like for a while I was like keep my head above water while swimming.

So, I was almost like craning my neck for 45 minutes at a time to like keep it above the water because I wasn't wearing goggles. So, I finally grabbed goggles and then I was like, “That helped a little bit.”

But it's one of those, so I go to the gym a couple times a week as well in addition to the running. And especially with like starting the cycle for training for another marathon, I actually went to the gym yesterday and I did legs.

And like it's so funny to be so good at running and like have my legs be so much weaker than they used to be, like from a lifting standpoint. Like today, I was hobbling around this morning after going to the gym as if I had just run another marathon. Just because it's such a different soreness.

But like you're absolutely right, like being well-balanced, it's like anything else. Like you don't want to just … like salad is extremely healthy for you, but you need more than just salad. You need carbs and you need protein.

And like same thing, running is good for you to a point, but like it's just … I totally understand and I want to love swimming. I do. I want to love it so, so bad. I think it's like anything else, like I want to be good at it and I'm sure the better I get, the more I will enjoy it.

Clementine Taylor:

I completely, I so get that. I think I love that analogy about the balance. I hadn't thought about it that way before. But you're so right. It's one of those things that you just need that kind of balance in your exercise routine.

But also, I think probably as a marathon runner, I can imagine that you're so used to like smashing what you're doing. And then I had this with like starting swimming. I was like, “Wow, I am not practice at this.”

And then just kind of wrapping your head around the fact that like, “Wow, okay, so, I'm going to just go in the slow lane for a bit. And that's okay. And then once I can move up to the middle lane and then like maybe the fast lane one day, then that's fine.”

But that was actually quite a good exercise mentally for me as well, was just thinking, “Okay, actually I can't always do things in life that I'm good at. But it's a good learning curve for me.”

And in my case, it has given me something that I am really now, passionate about and I really enjoy for so many reasons, which maybe I can attempt to begin to tempt you.

Adam Sockel:

No, you're absolutely right. There is an ego part about it of like knowing like, oh, I do the whole like lookout on a map and I'm like, “Oh, I could just run there.” Like that's absolutely true.

And like it's just so much easier for me at the end of the day to be like, “Oh, I'm just going to go out and run seven miles,” as opposed to like, “Oh, I'm going to go spend an hour in the gym or whatever it is.”

Clementine Taylor:

So amazing that you're running that, that is just incredible. Let’s take a moment.

Adam Sockel:

Well, thank you. I appreciate it.

But I want to ask you, because like one of the questions I always ask people who come on here is how does their passion connect to their writing?

So, you're debut novel, (we're talk about it in just a little bit here) Something About Her. I'm curious if swimming has helped you, if it's something you do before you start writing, if it like kind of sparks the creative juices or if it's just like a fully separate thing connected to your work. Like how does swimming interface with your writing life?

Clementine Taylor:

I love that question. I was actually thinking about this yesterday because of this podcast and it is not something that I thought about before. But like I really enjoyed reflecting upon it because I think there are all sorts of ways that it does feed into writing that I hadn't really thought about.

So, I've actually got a few ways I think it helps. The first way I think it's a really good, almost like a mindfulness exercise in terms of it being very meditative and all you have to think about is the next stroke and the next stroke after that. And your breath and this repetitive movement.

And I think actually it's not that that helps me so much with writing, but it's almost like it's a very similar state that I get into when I'm writing.

Which is that you feel like you're kind of in this other world and you're kind of locked in this almost heaven like state where you're sort of just really immersed in something meditative. And I absolutely love that about swimming.

It's just so that kind of being in that kind of space is really great. And I think that it doesn't necessarily help, but it is very similar to writing and that's maybe one of the reasons that I enjoy it.

Adam Sockel:

No, that's really interesting. I wouldn't have thought of it that way, but you're absolutely right. Like when you're writing and you're in the middle of a story, like if someone were to ask you like, “Well, how did you think of this whole story?” Like there's no way to answer someone who asks that type of question.

But it's sort of like you said, it's like you're almost outside of your body, just like putting stuff down and then as you go, like I don't know if you've had this experience, but I've had that moment where like I'll have a writing session, then I'll stop and I'll look back at it and be like, “I don't even remember writing that.”

And that is very much like, I mean, sort of the same thing with running. Like I'll look at my route and be like, “I don't even remember like-

Clementine Taylor:

Going past that place. Yeah.

Adam Sockel:

Exactly. Yeah, that's so interesting.

Clementine Taylor:

Yeah, that's so true. I think you're so right that comes with running as well. I think it's just that kind of thing of the ultimate escape.

And I think also for me being in the water really emphasizes that because you are literally in this like huge tub of blue water that when you get into it, to me, because you're underwater, you're not breathing properly, you're not doing things that you would normally do day to day.

So, it just kind of exaggerates that feeling of it being something that's alien and contained in that time and yeah, I really love that. It's really great.

Adam Sockel:

I'm curious for you. So, when I run, I do get ideas for both like work and creative writing and stuff. I do have stuff percolating. It'll just like pop up and like I'll stop and like put it in my notes app.

Admittedly for me, when I was swimming it was like just get to the next wall, don't drown. So, I couldn't focus on anything else because again, I wasn't great at it.

But while you're swimming kind of in that meditative state, are you thinking about your stories?

Clementine Taylor:

Definitely, definitely. And I think that actually is happening more and more. And often I'll get out of the pool and get my notebook out or my phone out with my notes app and write a few things down that I've thought about.

And it is really nice to have that time as well. Like I'm sure you have this when you're running that you kind of, there's nothing apart from what you're doing. And obviously, that gives you the time to have things in your mind.

And that is really nice as well to have that chance, whereas when you are doing other stuff during the day, you kind of don't have that mental space in the same way.

Adam Sockel:

Were you swimming when you were writing Something About Her?

Clementine Taylor:

I wasn't, no. I always wish I had been. No, I wasn't. I only started swimming in January, so it was when I was going into the kind of final edits of Something About Her.

But the next book, I have been like thinking about it a lot in my head as I've been swimming. And that's quite nice actually. This is so great, this podcast, because I haven't thought about any of this stuff and you're kind of making me have all these big realizations.

I think I have thought about it a lot in the pool. And I'm sure actually when I think back to writing this other book, I will probably think about the pool as one of my associations with this book.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. So, what kind of sparked the idea for Something About Her? I want to talk about the book for a little while.

And we were talking before we started recording how earlier this year, my partner and I were in Ireland and Scotland and I told you how excited I got because one of the settings of the book is a University of Edinburgh.

Like what sparked this story for you? What made you want to write this story?

Clementine Taylor:

Sure. Yeah, there's kind of two parts to this answer. The first part is that I really think I would've loved to read a book like this at school. And I think that it was something that …

At school I was really bad at English literature. Like I really enjoyed it, but I always got really bad grades. And we were reading all of the classic incredible texts like Pride and Prejudice and Romeo and Juliet and stuff like this.

But I think for me, I really wish at that point in my life, I would've been able to read a book with this kind of queer romance at the center.

And so, that was one of the reasons I wanted to write Something About Her, was to really hone in on that relationship.

And this leads onto the second part of the answer, which is that I really wanted to think about some of the core kind of complexities that are happening for young women at that time of life and kind of leading from the late stages of school into if you go to college, the early years of college.

But just generally, that time of your life. So, things like that obviously come onto the book, like trauma and sexuality and like the meaning of friends and your family.

That kind of stage of transitioning and moving somewhere that you've never been before. All of this kind of amalgamation of things was something that I really wanted to focus on.

And yeah, I think we spoke about this before you started recording, but yeah, Edinburgh was kind of a place as well that inspired me. I think it's a very easy place. I'm sure you can relate to this when you are walking around to kind of imagine things and to be inspired.

And I think it's one of those very unique places that captures all the sides of human experiences. It's so kind of dark and elusive and always ghostly and eerie, but at the same time, it's so bright and beautiful and angelic.

And I think that for me, also setting the book there, that's almost for me, like the third protagonist of the book along with Maya and Aisling, is Edinburg having it be the place where they experience all these things, was also very important to me.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. It's something where like you were talking about with like this time of our lives is so interesting because it's like big emotions stacked on big emotion stacked on big emotion.

It's like you are experiencing what it truly means to be an adult member of society for the first time while still being a kid kind of. You are either falling in love for the first time or trying to figure out the type of person you want to love, if you want to love everyone. You are leaving or losing friends and making new friends.

And like you said, even with parents, even removing, like coming to terms like whether or not your parents accept the choices you make, whether it's the partner you want to have, or the thing you want to study, or the place you want to go.

It's also this like subtle switch between these people who have been not like in charge of you, but like have been like watching over you all of this time. Like now all of a sudden, it's slowly starts to begin that process.

Whereas becoming an adult, you start to realize there are moments in your life where you're going to know more than your parents. And so, like it's all of these huge emotions.

And like you said, then you put it in this place of Edinburgh where like I won't be able to it justice, but you're absolutely right. Like every single corner of Edinburgh feels steeped in history in both like a positive and a super dark way, and both.

And so, it is this very emotional place. And when I was there, it was shockingly sunny, but I know the majority of the time there, it's like gray and-

Clementine Taylor:

Wow. Was that? You're so lucky.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. But I love this idea of like … there's a word that in the description of your book, which is claustrophobic.

Which I love because like in a weird way, Edinburgh feels both like expansive and claustrophobic because of the way like it's hilly with these huge like castles and churches and everything is surrounding you and like-

Clementine Taylor:

Exactly.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. I loved that profile.

Clementine Taylor:

That's so true. I love that. It's almost like it's cozy, but it's expansive. I absolutely love that.

And I don't know when you went there, did you walk up towards Arthur’s Seat?

Adam Sockel:

Yes. So, we did go, yeah.

Clementine Taylor:

You did, okay. And I think that is also amazing because it's one of those times I think when you're underneath Arthur’s Seat and it's kind of towering over you and you have … and I mean, it's so majestic. It's just really incredible.

And it almost feels like, to me, I always think of it as like the back of an animal or something. It feels like it's going to like rear its head or something.

I think seeing Edinburgh from that perspective is just incredible. Where you can kind of look down and you can see from the sea, you can see from leaf all the way like into the center.

And kind of all the churches, and the castle, and the houses, and the meadows, and everything as well. Yeah, it is a really, really special place.

And yeah, it's so true, I think that it is sort of great that it can … for me, it's just so characterful and it really just captures everything that I'm trying to capture in the book, but I don't know if I can ever do it justice in writing, because I think you have to see it to [crosstalk 00:33:47].

Adam Sockel:

Oh, yeah, yeah. To describe Edinburgh and to see Edinburgh are two completely different things.

Clementine Taylor:

Exactly.

Adam Sockel:

I want to ask you about that because you're talking about like you wrote this book about, like I said, these massive emotions and these relationships that come and go in our lives and like both expected and unexpected ways, and you put it in this place where there's so much history and emotion like in every single corner.

For you, what was the most challenging part of writing this story? Especially with it being your debut novel? Like was it writing these characters in the relationships, was it trying to figure out like how to move a plot along? Like what for you was challenging about this book?

Clementine Taylor:

That's a great question. Yeah, I think there were a few elements I found challenging.

I think one of them was that, so the reason that it turned it into a novel was that initially I'd written it as a short story. Which was essentially just a shortened version of the first part of the book. So, it was really the Aisling part of the book. That was a short story.

And then after I'd written this short story, I thought to myself like, “I'd really love to turn this into a novel.”

So, Aisling as a character was always very palpable, very kind of, I could always touch her, I could always see her. I always kind of knew her.

I think one of the challenges for me was making Maya that real. And Maya took a lot more kind of development. But almost, it was kind of like I was going on different journeys with the two of them, and that sort of made it more special when I got to know Maya in a way, I think.

So, that was kind of one of the elements that was challenging for me, I think, was really creating these two characters who I knew equally and therefore could know each other equally as well. I think obviously that's all tied in together in a book, writing a book as well.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, that's really interesting. I was going to ask if there's one that you saw yourself in more than the other. Kind of sounds like yes, but I could be wrong.

Clementine Taylor:

I don’t know, I think it's really funny actually, the other day my sister saw something about the two girls on my social media about the differences between them or something, and she sent me a message saying, “This is the two sides of your personality.”

And I was like, “I'm going to take that as a compliment.” Because I think there are definitely aspects of me in both of them, but also, which is bound to happen as a writer, like as I'm sure you know that (you kind of are) you and your knowledge and experiences inevitably be in the book.

But also, they're so involved into their own people and outside of me, which I love because I always say it's like having these invisible friends who you just get to go and hang out with when you're writing, which I really enjoyed.

And so, definitely I can see parts of me in them, but they are so, to me, real people in my head that they're like my friends.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. I can't remember who it was, but I had an author tell me like, every character they've ever written was A, like small aspect of themselves heightened to like either the best or the worst or the most extreme possible version of that like one emotion.

Like whether it was the kindness that they feel like they have or the selfishness that they feel, or the like jealousy that they feel when they see someone else succeed. They're like, “I'm happy for them, but like there's a twinge of jealousy.”

So, like every character they wrote was like take that, whatever it is, and just like ratchet it up to 10, like as hard as you can go. And I thought about that.

Like the manuscript I'm querying is like, the main character's like an 85-year-old man, like I am not an 85 year old man, but he has like this vein of nostalgia, which is I'm a very nostalgic person and it's just like cranking that up as high as it can go into this person.

Clementine Taylor:

Absolutely.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. So, like I think you're right. Like they calling them like friends you can go hang out is another like way of thinking about it too. Like these people you can go and be like, “Oh, I want to dive back into their lives a little bit.”

Clementine Taylor:

Absolutely. Yeah, and I think that's so interesting. I definitely think, because I often have people ask me this question of like, “Oh, is this based on your experience?” And of course, part the answer is yes.

But most of the answer is it kind of was initially and then you're so right, it kind of develops and snowballs into something completely different.

And I think one of the interesting things for me writing to bring it back to swimming actually as well is that I think one of the major things that swimming or just I guess like team sport … I mean, I know swimming isn't a team sport in the way that I'm doing it, but sport in general has taught me, is that ability to listen to people and to like react to people and what they're doing.

And I think when you are lane swimming, you really have to be especially aware of where people are. And in its own way, that's kind of like listening to other people.

And I think also, something that I've come across over the last few months with swimming is like listening to these podcasts about it, like reading these books about it, like The Lido, and The Tidal Year, and Small Bodies of Water. And thinking about how swimming really encapsulates stories and it's so special to listen to those.

And I think that part of writing is listening, is listening to other people around you who have these stories which might inspire your books and like listening to yourself of course.

But also, listening to the characters as they develop themselves and they kind of organically turn into these people who maybe you've like planted a seed, but they kind of start to grow in this direction that you maybe didn't anticipate.

I think it's been really special for me and something that I'm still learning about, obviously is my debut novel coming out, so I'm no expert. But it's been a really enjoyable kind of experience, that experience of growing to listen to the people on the page who you create.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. It almost feels like it's like a learned practice of patience for both.

Clementine Taylor:

Absolutely.

Adam Sockel:

You have to be patient with like … my day job, I do marketing, a lot of that is writing. And like a lot of it is like me staring off into the wall and like being patient and trying.

And it's so sort of the same thing with stories, and I imagine it's kind of the same way with swimming.

It is like stroke after stroke, like it's repetitive just like running, but it's like you're patient in the sense that you have to both — like you said, like we talked about earlier, you can kind of zone out, but you kind of have to just focus in the moment a little bit and be like, “Okay. One after the other, after the other sort of a situation.”

Clementine Taylor:

Exactly, exactly. And I also, yeah, I love this. As you were talking about earlier with The Lido, like I love this element of community that you get as well at the pool.

Like the people who you see and maybe you have this on your runs as well, if you're going the same route, if you're going at the same time of day-ish, then you kind of tend to see the same people.

And I think that's what's really nice about swimming as well, is if I tend to go at the same time, I become familiar or like I start to chat to the people and it's kind of these characters that you meet and like everything is just so kind of it really like fills you up in that way. It's just great to see the same faces and everything.

And obviously The Lido is all about this community and how important the pool is for community and I'm kind of really starting to see that as well. So, that's really great.

Adam Sockel:

I love that. Okay. I have one last question for you. I always end every episode by having a recommendation from the author who has been on.

It can be a book, it can be something entirely different. You can tell people to go swimming if you would like. But what is something you want to recommend to our listeners?

Clementine Taylor:

Okay, well, I will stick to the swimming trend actually. And I will recommend, I've already mentioned it, but The Tidal Year by Freya Bromley, which is both a book and a podcast, so you can pick whichever you want.

If you prefer podcasts, which I'm guessing people who are listening to your podcast do enjoy podcasts, then the podcast is amazing. It has guests on to talk about why they love swimming and kind of bring out their stories related to swimming.

And then Freya’s book as well is absolutely beautiful. It's a memoir about her brother died I guess six, seven years ago now. And so, she was kind of trying to come to terms with that. And she decided to swim every tidal pool in the UK.

And so, it's kind of a book about swimming and grief and yeah, it's just such, such a beautiful book. So, I would recommend that as well.

Adam Sockel:

That is a fantastic recommendation. Clementine, speaking of recommending books, Something About Her is such like a beautifully, fully realized story that I just loved.

And I told you before, it was like right when we were chatting at the beginning, like sometimes people come on the Zoom chat with me and instantly I'm like, “Oh, I think we're going to be best friends.”

And we were joking about this in Europe and beforehand. And this was so much fun. I can't thank you enough. Thank you so much for joining me.

Clementine Taylor:

Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a joy to speak out about swimming and writing for 45 minutes. I couldn't imagine a better way to end the day, so thank you for having me.

[Music Playing]

Adam Sockel:

Passions and Prologues is proud to be An Evergreen podcast was created by Adam Sockel. It was produced by Adam Sockel and Sean Rule-Hoffman.

And if you are interested in this podcast and any other Evergreen podcast, you can go to evergreenpodcasts.com to discover all the different stories we have to tell.