Life is just a SIMulation with Claribel Ortega

Adam Sockel: You’re listening to Passions and Prologues, a literary podcast where each week, I’ll interview an author about a thing they love, and how it inspires their work. I’m your host, Adam Sockel, and if this is your first time listening, thanks so much for taking a listen, and giving this podcast a chance. If you’ve been here since the very beginning, so glad to have you back. This is a really, really fun episode. Today’s discussion is with Claribel Ortega, who is an author that I’ve known about for a really long time, and she and I talked about this after we stopped recording, but Claribel has been in my kind of purview, my Twitter extended world, because for a long, long time I’ve known Ryan La Sala, and a bunch of young adult authors because of my previous job. And while I never interviewed Claribel, Claribel has always been at the various events, and in the different things that Ryan and all of his other friends like Phil Stamper have done. And so, I’ve seen her kind of grow as an author, and it’s been really, really cool, and I told her after we stopped recording, it’s been like kind of cheering someone on that I hoped would always become a friend of mine, but I hadn’t met yet. And so, when she released her first books, and they instantly became smash hits, it was so cool to see. Claribel is the author of a couple of middle grade books, Ghost Squad, and Witchlings, and she has a new book that just came out called Frizzy. We talk about all of them in this conversation. So much fun. I really, really think you’re going to love it. I just love the way she writes. I love the worlds that she builds. I love the ways that she’s able to build out these characters. And you’ll find out in this discussion shortly, she’s been doing that for a long, long time, because she has an obsession with the Sims, and that’s an obsession that she obtained, acquired when she was very, very young. And she even tells me about the exact moment that it happened. You’re going to love it. It’s a great conversation, so hold on tight for just a moment before… We’ll get to that in just a moment. First, I want to give you a book recommendation. I just finished The White Hare by Jane Johnson. It’s really, really interesting story, especially if you’re fans of magical realism. But also, of course, one of the things that I love so much, family stories with big emotions. This is a story that takes place in the countryside of Cornwall, and there is a young mother, and her daughter, and the mother’s mother as well. The mother is kind of disgraced because of the way that she had her child. This is in the 1950s, and they try to start a new life for themselves in the countryside. They purchase this kind of manor that they want to turn into a guest house. And so the whole story really is about the ways that they all come together, and how they try to build this house up, and her kind of overbearing grandmother, and the young daughter is extremely precocious, but also has this pet doll rabbit, that seems to have some magic in it, and you’re not really sure what’s going on. But it’s all about the story of them coming into this community who is kind of standoffish, and they keep hearing whispers about these mysterious things that happen in the house that they purchased, and you don’t really find out what happened until the end. But it’s a really great story. Again, it’s something where, I love magical realism. I also love stories about families. And so this was really perfect for me. I think you’re going to love it, and I think you’re going to absolutely fall for this magical plush toy rabbit. It’s really great stuff. So, it’s a great late fall, this time of year, exactly where we’re at. The White Hare by Jane Johnson. Highly recommend it. And then lastly, before we get to Claribel, as a reminder, if you leave me a rating, review, wherever you do it, feel free to send that as a screenshot to me at [email protected]. Send that to me, and let me know what you’re currently reading. I’ll give you some customized book recommendations, as well. Greatly helps other people find the show. Helps me out a lot. I really, really appreciate it. To everyone who has done that so far, thank you so much. You’re helping grow the show every single week. It’s something that really means a lot to me. Okay. That is just about everything. Not going to hold you out any longer. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Claribel Ortega, on Passions and Prologues. Conversation about-

Claribel Ortega: About the Sims?

Adam Sockel: Yeah, exactly. So see, the best part is, my favorite thing about this is I know a little bit about the Sims, and I played other video games growing up, on a computer, but they were more so like Rollercoaster Tycoon, or StarCraft and stuff. So, I’m a little Simsy. All right, love it so much. Okay, let’s start from the beginning. When do you remember first falling in love with the Sims? What was that like?

Claribel Ortega: I have a very specific memory. So I was at my friend Amy’s house in high school, and she had a computer room. We used to have those back then, it was not even an office, it was just a room where you used the computer. And she was like, “Have you played the Sims before?” So the Sims came out in 2000, I want to say, Sims 1. So it’s been going on for a long time. And I was like, “No.” At that point, I think my sister had a computer, but she was the only person in our family who had a computer. So, it wasn’t… My parents are not technology people, they’re immigrants. They’re like, technology’s not for them.

Adam Sockel: Yeah.

Claribel Ortega: So my household, I sort of had to experience those things elsewhere, like at my cousin’s house. So, I was like, “No, I haven’t played this before. What is it?” So she shows me this game, and the very first thing she shows me is her killing her character in a cornfield.

Adam Sockel: Yep.

Claribel Ortega: And of course, creepy me that I was, was like, “This is now going to become my entire personality for at least the next 20 to 30 years.” I was so ready. It was so much fun. I remember we played until I had to go home. I couldn’t stop thinking about it. Yeah. That was the very first time that I played the Sims. And then, eventually my brother got a computer, and he got me the game, and his bedroom was in the basement of our house, and I just remember sneaking downstairs to play the Sims until three, four o’clock in the morning. Because when you first start playing any Sims game, there is no playing for an hour. You are going to be sucked down the Sims black hole for at least six to seven hours.

Adam Sockel: And it’s because like I said, right before I started recording, I had this experience when I… I think we’re similar ages, I’m 36, and so it was around the same time where, when our family got a computer, we could play games on the internet, but only if someone wasn’t on the phone, because it would cut the internet.

Claribel Ortega: Right, right.

Adam Sockel: We had that [inaudible 00:07:41]. So, I would play, and my friends and I would play StarCraft, which was an online one, or I could play Rollercoaster Tycoon by myself, without any internet connection. But if we were going to do anything on the internet, that had to be it, up until three in the morning anyway, when the phone wouldn’t ring. But you’re right, all of those, they really are open world, just do whatever you want, type games. And you don’t… It’s like Animal Crossing today. You’re not going to sit down on the Sims and be like, “Let me just check in on my friends.” Yeah.

Claribel Ortega: No. No, “Let me play a quick match.” It’s not like that.

Adam Sockel: No. Yeah.

Claribel Ortega: “Let me get married and have seven babies, and a tragedy at minimum.”

Adam Sockel: Yeah. So, when you started playing Sims, how did you approach it? Because you mentioned your cousin taking someone out in the cornfield and murdering them. That’s how I remember playing Rollercoaster Tycoon at first, is being like, “I’m going to build the most buck wild rollercoaster and everyone’s going to die in it.” How did you evolve to playing it? Where did you find the joy in the game?

Claribel Ortega: I actually didn’t really like to kill my Sims in the beginning, that came later.

Adam Sockel: Oh, okay.

Claribel Ortega: But, I loved just storytelling through the game, really. I would make a character, and sort build up a goal in my mind, because the Sims is very sort of open world, like you said, right? You’re just completing mundane tasks. And as the game has evolved, there are ways to build in bigger goals, and parts of the game that feed that mechanism of storytelling, like making a million Simolians, and starting from zero. That is a challenge that people sort of used to play. That’s now part of the games, part of Sims 4. But for me, it was very simple. Sims 1 was very simple. It was very hard. If you try to play it now, it’s like, “Oh my God, all I do is take care of this thing. I have no time for a social life.” But, I would just try to tell stories, make goals for my sim. “Oh, this sim wants to become a famous movie star. How can I make that happen? They want to get married.” Whatever sort of the idea that I came up with in my mind, I would start with a character, and then I would go from there. And it was one of the very first ways that I learned how to tell stories, was through the Sims.

Adam Sockel: And did you find yourself… Because again, there’s all these different games that are city planning type games, where like you said, you can expand. Did you find yourself doing that, or focusing on a smaller… Like a family within the larger ecosystem?

Claribel Ortega: I would do both. I would definitely have a main family that I played with, but then I would sometimes build out a few different families, and try to make a whole storyline. That came with the later iterations of Sims. But I’m not much of a builder. I’m very bad at making houses. I’ve gotten better, but at first I was like, sometimes I’ll see a house that’s badly made in real life, and I’m like, “Wow, that looks like I made it in the Sims. It has too many windows, they’re in the wrong place, the roof looks off, it’s about to collapse.” But yeah, it just really depended what kind of mood I was in, and how much time I had to play also. But I did a little bit of both. I also played Sim City later on, after the Sims. I found it randomly one Christmas, and went down that rabbit hole, and that was really super fun. But, yeah.

Adam Sockel: Do you find that it is more of a stress relief, or an outlet, or a creative tool in your life? Because obviously, like you said, storytelling, that is something you are… World building is something you clearly thrive at now as a New York Times bestseller. I’ll pause for applause. But, do you find it as something that you use as escapism, or something that you realize kind of gets your brain going?

Claribel Ortega: I think it is escapism, which is really funny, because they’re doing laundry, right? It’s like the sim has its life more together than I do. It’s a little bit of escapism. You can just get lost in these stories, and they become important to you. There’s been moments where the Sims, they die now in the game, and their family members grieve them. And if you’ve been playing with a sim for a really long time, it can be devastating for that to happen. I cheat, I make them drink Elixir of Life all the time because I don’t like them to die. But sometimes there are accidents, and it happens. And I also add a lot of really weird mods to the game. Like there’s a serial killer mod that you can add to the game, which is really funny. There’s a life tragedy mod that you can add to the game, where a car will just come and randomly run somebody over while they’re outside of the club. It is so funny. It is so funny. And then that sounds really morbid of me to say, but because it’s the Sims, and you’re adding these extra garnishes, it’s just really funny. I love the community of the Sims, how incredibly talented people are. The things that they can make, just better than what EA makes sometimes, to be quite honest with you, especially lately. But yeah, it’s definitely a thing where I lose myself completely. I just turned in a book last Friday, and I will just sit down, and just play Sims all day long, and just forget about the outside world, and just focus on the world of the Sims, and it’s just really fun for me.

Adam Sockel: I find that really, really interesting, and I was having a conversation on an episode that hasn’t come out yet with Dawn Kurtagich, who’s a YA horror writer. She writes very spooky stories. But, we were talking about how part of being a writer is just being aware of the world around you. There are ideas that can be anywhere, especially in a big city where you live, that you can see a person sitting, waiting at the subway and you’re like, “That is a new secondary character in a new novel.” You can do that.

Claribel Ortega: Oh, absolutely.

Adam Sockel: I imagine this probably… Is that similar for you, for the Sims? Like you could see something and be like, “Oh, that’s a…” Even if it’s not a direct pull, but an experience, or a thing you see?

Claribel Ortega: Yeah, for sure. I think that when I play the Sims, I sort of see what I respond to, in terms of storytelling. That’s how I sort of… Because I’m an author now, I see everything through the lens of that, through storytelling, and how I react to it, what works for me, what doesn’t work for me. And even if it’s subconscious, I will pull from that sometimes. I love a revenge storyline. It is my favorite thing. So, I feel like I end up playing a lot of those things in the Sims, and I did that even way back in high school. And so, now, to know that I try to seed that into my writing, because it’s just something that makes me happy. Absolutely. It’s an expression of the things I like to see in storytelling, and then I also learned from it. I learned how to navigate things sometimes.

Adam Sockel: Can you expand for people who might not be aware, what a revenge scenario might look like in the Sims? Because it’s just [inaudible 00:15:06] sentence.

Claribel Ortega: Sure. So, I love to have a cheating storyline. So, we’ll have a couple, one of them can be a serial romantic. So, in that game, you can have a trait that the Sim just wants to have a lot of different romantic partners. They could completely cheat on their partner, partner catches them, and then the partner sort of thrives on their own, while the cheater is broke, and alone. Revenge.

Adam Sockel: That’s amazing. So, do you find yourself creating characters in a specific build? I remember there was a game when I was younger, and I think they’re still making that. It was called Fable, and it was a very much, you could kind of choose… It was a fairytale game, I think it was for Xbox. But basically, every choice you made in the game affected whether your character ended up being good, or evil, and the types of powers and skills they had. Very advanced for back then, it was crazy.

Claribel Ortega: That sounds really cool.

Adam Sockel: Yeah. Like you could get married and build a house, and have a family, and abandon your family, and that would give you evil points. Or you could obey the laws, or hit someone in public, and all these different things would affect you. And I always found myself, because I and my therapist talk, just talks to me about this all the time. I never want to feel like I’m causing someone else grief, or as a kid getting in trouble. So, I was always picking the most prince valiant ass choices.

Claribel Ortega: Oh, that’s very cute.

Adam Sockel: I guess, when you’re building out characters, do you find yourself playing a specific way? Now that I just told you that I was a goody two shoes, here I go.

Claribel Ortega: No, it really does depend on my mood. Sometimes I would like to have a character who starts with nothing, and builds himself up, and is very sweet. But more often than not, I do like my character to have a little bit of edge to them, or just weirdness. My favorite parts of the Sims is how quirky it is. In the Sims 2, they introduce aspirations, so you could have a lifetime aspiration. Sometimes it was to be rich, sometimes it was to have a large family, or a successful family. But then there was this one aspiration called Grilled Cheese Sim, and your aspiration was all about making grilled cheese, eating grilled cheese. Your fears were about burning your grilled cheese sandwiches. Your wants had to do with improving your skills, and buying kitchen appliances that would all go to making better grilled cheese. I loved a Grilled Cheese Sim, it was my favorite. It was so funny. I just thought it was so funny. And the thing about the Sims is that no matter what kind of character you make, they end up surprising you. Even if you try to make the meanest character, even if you try to make the nicest character, they will do things that you aren’t expecting, and I think that’s what makes the game really fun, and interesting. So I just sort of let it flow, and whatever happens, happens. And sometimes it’s not what I planned for you, but this is going to be your life now, I guess.

Adam Sockel: Listen, I live in Cleveland. I know you live in also cold weather area. This is coming out in the middle of October. This is grilled cheese season, so I’m all for a grilled cheese Sim. I love that so much, and I’m curious if that connects at all to how you write your books. Do you find yourself planning something out specifically, or letting it be similar to the Sims, where it’s like, “I’m going to start writing this, and just see where it goes,” and kind of surprising yourself?

Claribel Ortega: So, I used to be what you called a panser. So I used to of just write whatever, but now because I’m perpetually on deadline, I sort don’t have time to not plan things out. So, I do write a detailed chapter by chapter outline now, whenever I write something. But, I do let the words take me where they need to take me, and the story go where it needs to go. And I think part of that is establishing a really strong world, and characters to begin with. Because if you do that, if your character is well fleshed out, and thought out, you’re going to know if they’re doing something that doesn’t feel right. It’s just like, “Oh my character, they would never do this.”

Adam Sockel: Yeah.

Claribel Ortega: So, they sort of write themselves at that point. Once you establish them as this kind of character, you know what their next move is going to be, depending on what’s happening to them. So, I’m a little bit of both. I do like to let the story unfold the way it needs to. I’m not super rigid, but I do believe in the power of establishing strong characters, and premises, and worlds first, and then letting the world take over from there.

Adam Sockel: Yeah. So, normally I like to ask you people how they think the thing they’re passionate about affects their writing, but it sounds like you just said it. Do you think your experience, and your love of the Sims has bled into your writing style, and your creativity?

Claribel Ortega: Absolutely. I think especially the quirkiness of the game. Even if you don’t play the Sims, if you go and watch somebody play on YouTube, or even just reading the descriptions of the items in the game catalog, they’re all funny. They’re all fun, they’re all really sort of whimsical, and it’s stuff that most people won’t even notice. An average player won’t go through and read every single description, or notice every little facet of the game. But that just makes it so much richer of a world, and I really try to do that with my own writing, down to the smallest thing, especially for Witchlings, which is a secondary world. It took me a couple days to figure out what the system of measurement was going to be, and I remember my friend was like, “Why does it matter?” And I was like, “It’s important. It’s a different world, and the more details I add in it, the more immersed people are going to feel in it.” And that’s what the Sims is like. It’s so richly built, there’s so such allure to it, such great humor, and sort of a personality that you can’t help but get lost in it. And that’s what I hope people feel with my books. So yeah, I do try that.

Adam Sockel: Yeah, absolutely. I want to ask, speaking of the book world, before we started recording, you were talking about how, obviously you’re a full-time author, and you have a ton of friends who are also authors, one of which is a friend of the show, Ryan La Sala, who we can talk about in a little bit. But, one of the things that full-time authors, and my friends who’ve discussed being an author have talked about is, once you hit a certain level of success, and notoriety, it’s obviously incredible. But it’s also, people will start to look for you, anytime you talk about a book in any way publicly, it’s very stressful, and it’s like, “Oh, Claribel said this about this book.” Or like, “Oh, I’ve heard that there’s these backstabbing tweets going on in the YA community.” All these different things. So I have friends, like [inaudible 00:22:06] O’Mara, who, they love to play Dungeon Dragons with their friends, because it’s like they can be private, they can do their own thing, and it’s not about books. This is a long way of asking, do you play the Sims with your friends?

Claribel Ortega: So, the Sims is actually… There was a Sims online at one point, in the aughts, but I never played it. And so, I’ve never really played with my friends. There’s been moments where my friends, or my nieces and nephews will sit next to me as I’m playing, and that’s sort the closest you can get to playing with somebody else now, because there’s no online play. I used to stream the Sims. During the pandemic, I did this whole challenge that actually merged D&D with the Sims, where I had different scenarios. Every time a character aged up, and I would do a 20 sided die, and then they would have to do… It would be their fate. It was really fun, and people were really invested in it. My character, Clarinet Orchestra was an icon. Her children were named after musical instruments. So, that’s pretty much the closest. I did used to play, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Second Life?

Adam Sockel: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Claribel Ortega: Yeah. I was whoa, really into Second Life. I was very, very into it, and it was at the height of the game, where there was like… IBM, companies were actually in the game, and owned the island, and there was like… You could take university classes. It was what Meta wants to be, way back then, and organically.

Adam Sockel: Yeah, that was literally what I was going to say. I was like, “It’s literally what Facebook is trying to do now.” I heard some, this is [inaudible 00:23:54] nothing, but I heard some commercial, a brand who I won’t name, but they’re like, “Come listen to our concert on this specific…” It was so such a word jumble that I was trying to think of, “Imagine hearing this 10 years ago.” It was like, come hear this band on this digital concert hall, in Fortnite, in the Metaverse. The sentence blew my mind now, and I was like, “If you would’ve said that to me even five years ago my brain would’ve melted.” [inaudible 00:24:20].

Claribel Ortega: Yeah, Second Life was really fun. I had a lot of fun playing it, but it was a little bit too much of a time suck, I think, because there were other people involved, and you started forming friendships online with these avatars, and it was a lot, and there was a lot of drama, and that was really fun to watch, because it was like… I was much younger than a lot of the people I played with, and it was a lot of upset, unhappy housewives, finding…

Adam Sockel: Escapism.

Claribel Ortega: Yes. And then they would try to meet up in real life, and it was never who they said they were from their pictures, and then they would come back in game, and tell everybody. Ugh. It was incredible.

Adam Sockel: Yeah. We’ll be back with more passions and prologues after this break. And now back to passions and prologues. So, for anyone who has read Ghost Squad, or Witchlings, [inaudible 00:25:23], you were talking about world building and everything, and your books are so immersive, and they’re so fantastic, and I feel like in my old job, when I was interviewing authors, I feel like I was always circling getting a chance to talk to you, because I know Ryan so well, and all these different things, and like you and Ryan doing podcasts. I remember following you on our account over there and being, “I want to talk to her some day.” Because I’m obsessed with the worlds that you build.

Claribel Ortega: Thank you.

Adam Sockel: And so I want to ask… Oh you’re welcome. I want to ask you though, about your new book Frizzy. Can you tell our listeners what it’s about, and that world, and why you’re so excited for it to be coming out?

Claribel Ortega: Sure. So, Frizzy drops October 18th. It is actually my debut graphic novel with Rose Bousamra who is the illustrator. It is about a 12-year-old Dominican American girl named Marlene who is sick and tired of getting her hair straightened every weekend at the salon, but it makes her mom happy, so it’s very difficult for her to break away from that. She’s also dealing with beauty standards in her community, that tell her that straight hair is more beautiful, and curly, frizzy hair is bad hair. So, she goes on this journey of sort of self-discovery, and learning to love herself, and accept herself for who she is, and to stand up for what she wants to look like. And I reread it the other day in another language, because it is being translated. I can’t tell you what languages yet, but I was reading it in another language, and I was like crying, crying, laughing. It was so fun. It’s set in the Bronx where I grew up. A lot of the stories are taken from my childhood, and I really enjoyed writing in graphic novel form. I’m a very sort of visual person, so it really sort of tickled a part of my brain, working with Rose, and with First Second my publisher, has been incredible. They’re just a great team, and I think the story is really important, and it’s very specific to my childhood, and my community, but it’s also very universal, because everybody has had issues with something about themselves that they didn’t feel happy with growing up, especially in middle school. So, I think watching Marlene sort of navigate that, and be so brave, and smart and ask these uncomfortable questions of the adults around her is interesting, and I’m honored that I got to write it, and that people are responding to it so well.

Adam Sockel: Yeah, and I’m super curious about the graphic novel creation aspect, especially a book like this, where obviously it’s about her hair, it’s such an important visual. What was the experience like? Because I’ve had so many authors talk about writing comics, and graphic novels, and some of them are at the hip with the graphics, some of them have no connection, and they just each do their own thing. What was the process like for you? Again, especially with a story that the visuals are so important to this story?

Claribel Ortega: Right. So, I wrote the script, and in the script, I included lots, and I mean tons and tons of description, down to colors. The color scheme is something that I was like, “Oh everything’s pink.” And I was like, “Yeah, of course it is, because you wrote that in, and you love pink. Hello.” That’s like, as if it just happened. So, Rose does also love pastels. It just worked out. But, I wrote a very detailed sort of script, and then there was some interaction. I wouldn’t say we were attached at the hip, or constantly talking, but it was like, Rose would send in a draft to me, and Kiara our editor, and then Kiara would ask for notes, would give back notes. I would give feedback. Most of the feedback came from Kiara. Most of the feedback was on very small things, like tightness of the bubbles around the words, or the placement, things like that. But for the most part, it was a very smooth process. It just sort of worked really well with our team. So, there was some interaction. I would say that now that the book is done, we’ve interacted more, because we have to do events together. We’re going on tour together, we text each other all the time now. But that really didn’t start happening towards the tail end of the process. That’s also because Rose was working their butt off for two years. I finished in a couple months. Right? But they did the hard part of it. So, it took a little bit of time. We also didn’t know each other in real life, and this all happened virtually. So, now we’re friends, but it took a little while to get there.

Adam Sockel: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And part of the reason I’m always so interested is, as someone who writes young adult, and middle grade fiction, when you’re writing a novel, it’s an entirely different experience. And so, did you find yourself writing a full paragraph, and then needing to pare it down into a sentence type of a situation? Because obviously there’s far less room for words when there’s so many visuals.

Claribel Ortega: Yes. Absolutely. I would think that was the biggest learning curve for me, was parsing down the words, because I’m used to writing so, so much more. So the first script that I turned in, Kiara was like, “Okay, now some of this is going to have to be cut down.” And I think that was the biggest of change for me, and the biggest thing I had to learn was that, yeah, not all of this is not going to fit in a bubble, so you are going to have to condense your words, and also rely on the artwork. I really love the scenes where there are no words, and we just rely on the character expressions, and the colors, and the beautiful illustrations. Yeah.

Adam Sockel: Yeah, I’m so fascinated by, as a classic over writer myself, in everything I do, whether it’s for my day job where I work for a tech company writing marketing stuff, or I’m querying a novel moment, and I could feel, and so when I had a friend of mine who edits books editing it, he was like, “Wow, you really painted a picture with that one.” I’m like, “I know, I couldn’t stop myself.” So, I don’t know if anyone of those was ever [inaudible 00:31:51] a graphic novel. I’d be like, “That’s impossible for me.” It’s such a talent.

Claribel Ortega: You know what though? I think it is something that could really hone your skills to learn how to write in less words. We would make fun of the people who were doing pitching contests on Twitter recently because I was like, “You have 280 characters. Back in our day, we only had 140. You had to really get your point across in so many less word.” And it’s harder. It really is. But I love it. This definitely won’t be my last graphic novel, and in fact, the next graphic novel idea that I have, and that I’m working on, is Sims related.

Adam Sockel: Are you allowed to talk about it? I’m assuming-

Claribel Ortega: No, it’s not under contract or anything like that. I just don’t really give that many details. I will say that it’s just a Sims inspired graphic novel.

Adam Sockel: That is awesome. All right. Okay. There’s something else I need to talk to you about, because that’s what the… Please tell my listeners about the podcast that you do with Ryan. It’s [inaudible 00:33:01] incredible.

Claribel Ortega: So, Ryan and I co-host this podcast called Bad Author Book Club. It was originally Celebrity Book Club, but for some reason, 20 podcasts began in the midst of the pandemic with that exact same name. So, we changed the name. Basically I was really bored during the pandemic, I was sad, and I was just tooling around online, and I came across a video by author Mark Oshiro, and they were talking about the first chapter of this book called Model Land, written by Tyra Banks. And I was like, “What is this?” First of all, it’s such a funny video, Mark is hilarious. And so I was like, “I want to read this.’ And then I started to read the intro of it somewhere and I was like, ”Oh my God, this is too funny. This is incredible. I want to make a podcast sort of dissecting this book. Who would do this with me?" Immediately, Ryan. And so, we first set up an entire photo shoot in my apartment. That was the first step to launch the podcast. But we started recording this podcast where we would do a deep dive into every chapter of Model Land, which is probably the worst book that I’ve ever read. But, one of the most fun experiences that I’ve ever had. The most entertained I’ve ever been with a book. So it’s basically a podcast where two authors read fiction by celebrities, mostly celebrities. We have a couple one off episodes from the Coronavirus books. So, it’s mostly fiction by celebrities and we sort of dissect them, and talk about them, and screech about how ridiculous they are, and it’s really so much fun. And it’s also sort of made me interrogate, what does it mean for a book to even be bad, right? Because Tyra Banks herself said her purpose of writing model land was to entertain people, and she did.

Adam Sockel: Yeah.

Claribel Ortega: We were entertained. Not just us, but all of our listeners, and she did what she meant to do. She did what had to be done, and we had so much fun with it. I’m so excited for the second season, it’s going to be really, really great. And it’s just two authors. It’s, I would say part comedy reaction podcasts, part writing advice podcast, because we also talk about like, “This is how I would’ve fixed this, this is what she could’ve done to connect to these two chapters.” So, it’s a fun way to learn about the craft of writing, and also just laugh and have a good time about ridiculous books, because why not?

Adam Sockel: Yeah, I love that. I love it, first I love it so much because I adore both of you. But, I feel like you said, on its surface, it’s you two being ridiculous, talking about an absolutely ridiculous book, but it’s also like, there is something special about hearing authors talk about books, like Deadline City that Zoraida does. And it’s just, Zoraida, and Dhonielle Clayton, I should give them both their flowers.

Claribel Ortega: Yes.

Adam Sockel: But it’s just like, it is at the end of the day, like you guys are two authors talking about books, which is, that’s to me as an aspiring author, that’s the good stuff, where it’s like when you guys start getting into, “Well here’s how I would do…” The craft of it, in a way that other people just can’t understand. I love that so much.

Claribel Ortega: Yeah, I think it’s really fun, and I think it’s a more fun approach to learning how to fix things in your writing, and also to realize that by and large, most of us make the same kinds of mistakes, because all of the things that Tyra did, I’ve done in my very early drafts, which is why I also, and to this day, I do think that Tyra is a talented writer. I just think that she was too ambitious, and too quick. She should have taken a couple more years practice, maybe really fleshed the plot out, because it was a hot mess. But, she has a creativity there, and I could really, really see that. And so it’s just fun to see that. It’s fun to see that we all sort of make the same mistakes, are capable of making the same mistakes. And that’s cool, because it means that there are solutions out there for all of us to pull from collectively.

Adam Sockel: I love that, that’s so perfect. So, the last question I always ask is if you could offer up a recommendation for anything you want people to either check out, or that isn’t getting enough love. It could be books, obviously a lot of authors, you talk about books, but I mean it can be the first episode Mallory recommended a protein powder. It could be literally, it could be a recipe, it could be a TV show, it could be to check out Tyra Banks’ book, whatever it is you want to recommend, the floor is yours.

Claribel Ortega: Well, the first thing I’m going to recommend is grilled cheese.

Adam Sockel: Yeah.

Claribel Ortega: Because it’s delicious, and everyone should have one. I’m sorry to our lactose intolerant friends, but you can find alternatives, I’m sure.

Adam Sockel: Yeah.

Claribel Ortega: And I am going to go ahead and promote, or say people should check out the book Small Town Pride by Phil Stamper, which is one of my favorite recent middle grade books about a young kid who’s throwing his very small farm town’s first pride event ever. It is very cute. It made me cry. And there is a video game mechanism in the book, which is sort of reminiscent of Star Dew Valley, which we are big fans of, as well.

Adam Sockel: And if I remember correctly, didn’t Phil and their partner just have a baby? So, definitely go get Phil’s book.

Claribel Ortega: Go get it.

Adam Sockel: So they can have money.

Claribel Ortega: Needs to. I’m obsessed. I’m obsessed with the baby. I text Phil every single day, like, “How’s Blake?”

Adam Sockel: Oh. That’s so-

Claribel Ortega: I love her. I’m obsessed with her. I just can’t wait to go see her. I’m just beyond. It’s been so fun to watch. Watching one of your best friends have a baby is very sort of heartwarming, and me and Ryan had a… Because me, Phil and Ryan are in a group chat. We had a separate sort of, “Don’t stress Phil out chat,” where we were just like, “When’s baby coming?” We were freaking out.

Adam Sockel: Having you two as like surrogate aunties and an uncle, that is… Oh my gosh, that baby’s going to have the best life in the world.

Claribel Ortega: Oh, we just can’t wait. The costumes that Ryan will make, I just cannot wait.

Adam Sockel: Oh my God. The only problem is he can’t make them sexy. He can’t make a baby costume sexy.

Claribel Ortega: Yeah, he’ll figure something out. Ryan can do cute really well also, so I believe in him.

Adam Sockel: Oh, that’s so good. Well, like I said, I have been following along quietly at your career for a long, long time, and when I got the chance to talk to you, I was so freaking excited. Claribel, thank you so much for joining me today.

Claribel Ortega: Thank you for having me. This was so much fun. Thanks for remembering authors are people too.

Adam Sockel: Passions and Prologues is proud to be an Evergreen podcast, and was created by Adam Sockel. It was produced by Adam Sockel, and Sean Rule-Hoffman. And if you are interested in this podcast, and any other Evergreen podcast, you can go to evergreenpodcasts.com to discover all the different stories we have to tell.