World of War...craftin' a mystery with Leah Konen

[Music Playing]

Adam Sockel:

You are listening to Passions & Prologues, a literary podcast. For each week, I'll interview an author about a thing they love and how it inspires their work. I'm your host Adam Sockel, and if you're new here, thanks so much for joining. If you've been here for a while, thanks for coming back.

Today's episode is with mystery and thriller author Leah Konen, and we talk about her new book, You Should Have Told Me, which is a really, really delightful mystery that very much keeps you guessing chapter after chapter.

But before we get into her book, we talk about her love of online gaming and specifically World of Warcraft, and how it helped her husband and her bond while they had a new baby during the pandemic.

And we talk about my own past life with the old World of Warcraft and specifically Warcraft games when they first came out. It's a lot of fun. We get to nerd out for a little while.

We also get into the art and structure of creating a thriller and a murder mystery. I really love the conversation that you'll hear in just a little bit where we get into this notion that people have to come up with a twist that no one sees coming when in reality, if you are enjoying a book and you see the twist coming, that doesn't make it a bad book. That still is something, a million people wear a badge of honor when they're able to see a twist coming.

So, it's really interesting. We get into a bunch of different things. It's a very wider engine conversation, and Leah was a blast to chat with.

Before we get to that, I want to offer you a book recommendation. This is a little bit older, and it was a bestseller all over the place and it's very short, but I just read it for the first time a couple weeks ago, A Psalm for The Wild-Built by Becky Chambers.

It is such a strange little story. It is this monk who hands out tea and people get to kind of share their thoughts and troubles with them during the cup of tea that they're enjoying, and then they kind of go on their day. It's almost like enjoying therapy.

But it also tells a story of how this monk is a bit unhappy or unfulfilled with their life. And so, they go out into the wild. And this story takes place after this massive change in the world where robots became sentient and then humans basically enabled them to go and live off on their own.

And so, these robots live in the wild, and they are not approached by humans unless the robots want to, and then they've never wanted to until this monk ends up meeting a robot while he's basically going off on an adventure.

And then what ends up happening is this really delightful short story of this monk and this robot getting to know each other and understand each other's societies basically and asking tough, big questions that we all ask.

It's really adorable. It's really fantastic. I just really, really loved it. So, I think you're going to enjoy that very much.

If you happen to miss it, over the weekend I did a bonus episode of backlist book recommendations with Tina from TBR, et cetera and the Book Talk, et cetera podcast. I know a lot of you may have listened to this podcast for the first time because of that. So, if you're new here, again, thanks for being here.

But if you did miss that, go check it out. We gave over a dozen backlist book recommendations that we really had a lot of fun handing out. So, I think you'll really enjoy that.

And if you are new here, I have an email address, [email protected]. You can send me your passions, anything you are passionate about, just let me know. And every single month I hand out a random bookshop.org gift card just to somebody who sent me one of those emails. I really love reading them.

And then also, if you leave me a rating or review wherever you listen to your podcast, just go ahead and screenshot that and send it to my email, again, [email protected] and I'll give you some customized book recommendations.

And last but not least, you can find me at Passions and Prologues on TikTok and Instagram where I talk about books all the time.

Okay. That is all the housekeeping. I am so excited for you to listen to this discussion with Leah Konen, author of You Should Have Told Me, on Passions and Prologues.

[Music Playing]

Leah, I am so excited to have you on the show today. Thank you for joining me. And what is the thing you are super passionate about that we're going to be discussing today?

Leah Konen:

So, I am really passionate about kind of gaming, whether it’s board games or video games. I think I'm not a crazy gamer, like the most seasoned person, but especially over the last few years I've gotten really big into World of Warcraft.

Adam Sockel:

Okay, yay.

Leah Konen:

So, they re-released the classic version few years ago, and I actually never played it when it originally came out, but my husband was super into it. And so, it aligned right with when I was pregnant with my daughter and in an early parenthood and it kind of became our release for all that stress. So, it was a huge part of our early days and have actually just got back into it this winter.

Adam Sockel:

At the risk of revealing my age, although I've done that a bunch of times in this podcast, I actually did play the original one. And you saying World of Warcraft. I specifically remember my best friend growing up, his name was Kurt. Not only can I remember sitting in there done playing the original Warcraft and World of Warcraft and doing all the different campaigns and everything, but like I can remember the specific phrases and stuff that the different — like the “Yes, me Lord.” There was all these-

Leah Konen:

Oh yeah, the different NPCs. Yeah, I know. It gets really stuck in your head.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. So, I'm assuming I have an idea as to why, but what got you guys into it over the last couple years? I'm assuming it might be having time on your hands with the pandemic, but how did you-

Leah Konen:

Yeah, the pandemic really pushed it, I think it started before the pandemic. It was kind of like we were waiting for the baby to come, and I was past my due date. But we both kind of paused our work and were kind of just waiting.

So, we had nothing to do, so we were just playing WOW and watching Jeopardy! And it was funny. It actually turned out to be a really fun pandemic thing, but also to have with a young baby because they do actually sleep a lot.

And then even when they're awake, they're kind of just hanging out in one spot. So, and then both of us would play it, so we'd kind of be in a raid and my husband would tell the group that I had to just pop out for 10 minutes to go feed my daughter.

But yeah, and it was a perfect pandemic thing because it felt like the people in our guild were the only people we interacted with during the pandemic. So, it would kind of feel like you were part of these weird little parties. So yeah, it was kind of the ultimate remote social distancing thing you could do.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. I feel like it's the same reason why so many of us got into the Jackbox Games, all these things. It was a way to feel like you were connected to people without obviously being in person.

So, with there being a million different options, what was it about World of Warcraft that was kind of the thing that you both chose to fall into?

Leah Konen:

So, my husband had been really into it and he had like all the nostalgia for it. I was certainly old enough to have played it when it came out, but I remember just from hearing about it, like World of Warcraft, I thought it was going to be something completely different than it was.

And so, when I actually jumped in and started playing, I was like, “Oh wow. It's just like Lord of the Rings, but I can run around and control it. This is incredible.”

So, I think what I loved about it is there's enough storytelling. There's a lot of fun dialogue, there's a lot of fun backstories, but then there's just so many options and choices that you can make. And it's also so many different kind of paths you can take.

I’m not really into making potions and harvesting herbs and then selling them for this huge cost on the auction house. I was like the herb and potion, pure capitalist, opposite of how I am in real life. I was like, “Let me take all the money here.” So, it was fun that it's a little microcosm of society.

Adam Sockel:

You mentioning how you chose to play, so that's always so interesting to me where when it is a game like World of Warcraft or these big open world games that you can choose, like Elder Scrolls, there's different things that you can choose to be any type of character you want to be. It is really interesting what people choose.

And so, what was it about leading you down that path? Like you said you found a lot of interest in the herb collecting, all these different things. What was it about that path that intrigued you?

Leah Konen:

So, I think one of the reasons why I was kind of a late to life gamer is I never like shooting or fighting games. The Elder Scrolls, I actually like the world, especially Skyrim, the combat was too intense where I would just get nervous and drop the controller and I'm like, “I can't.”

So, what I loved about WOW was there was so many parts of the game where you didn't have to be actively fighting and then you could choose to go into fighting mode if you were doing a raid or a battleground or whatever.

But I like that there were so many parts of the world where you were just kind of being a character and interacting with people and I thought that part of it was just really fun.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. I feel like exactly what you said about the fighting. For a while I got very into the new Zelda game. Well, I guess not that new at this point, but the same reason, I could just get lost in I could spend an hour and a half riding a horse around a beautiful, green pasture or just climbing the tallest place I could find without ever encountering any enemies.

I know exactly what you mean. I'm the type of person … I don't game anymore, but I have always been somewhat fascinated by the gaming world since I was a kid and what I tend to be just blown away by is just being like, “Oh my God, people put this together. They built this world that we can now live in.”

And it's very similar to writing books. It's just the fact that obviously it's a team of people, but like there that they're able to constantly come up with these quests and these raids and just these new areas. To me, I'm always fascinated by that type of stuff.

Leah Konen:

And well, I think that's to me what's been so interesting is like growing up in the 80s and 90s, I thought the gaming was just Nintendo and seeing Mario and Luigi jump around.

And then to see that now it's such incredible both visual art and storytelling and there's some games that go crazy with storytelling. And I think with so many independent games too, I actually do get inspired with my writing by some of the gaming I do and vice versa.

I really think that it is an art form just like anything else. And people who maybe haven't experienced it or gotten into some of these newer games maybe don't realize or kind of judge it like, “Oh, it's just video games.” But they've come a long way. There's some really incredible stuff out there.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. Can you kind of touch on that a little bit of how you've been inspired from a storytelling standpoint. Because the one that I think that sticks out the most to me, again, I haven't played a ton of games lately, but I did play Hades all the way through. I don't know if you're familiar.

Leah Konen:

Okay.

Adam Sockel:

But that is one where it is like, obviously it's all of the Greek mythology and like just the storytelling in there. There was something like the script for the game was 1.2 million words. Just an insane amount of words.

Leah Konen:

Wow, yeah.

Adam Sockel:

But can you touch on what you were saying a little bit about how you've been inspired from a storytelling standpoint, from games and how it kind of connects to writing?

Leah Konen:

Sure. Well, if I can go full 80s baby for a moment, I'll say I was always also really into the Choose Your Own Adventure books.

Adam Sockel:

Absolutely.

Leah Konen:

If you remember those.

Adam Sockel:

Oh, yeah.

Leah Konen:

So, I think there's something so interesting about feeling like you're reading a story, but that you do have some sort of control. And perhaps, if we're going to get all psychoanalytical about it, perhaps that's what could have led me to writing and storytelling because it's like you have the story but you're kind of pulling the strings there.

But I really think really good games kind of create that feeling again of a really good Choose Your Own Adventure and kind of that magic of being a kid and feeling like you had a little bit of power over the story. But there's so many more choices now in a game than there are in a tiny little chapter book.

So, I think with every book, even though a reader doesn't have a choice, I think you want to ideally create a world that is as compelling as something you would find in the best video game, except for that world is of course in your head.

And so, I think there are a lot of parallels there and it's just the kind of thing where it's like compelling stories no matter what the medium really hook people. And it doesn't matter if it's a movie or a TV show or a book or a video game, but that's what people want. People want a story that just sweeps them away and takes them into this world.

Adam Sockel:

So, do you find, because your newest book, You Should Have Told Me, it is set in the real world. Do you find yourself drawn to … because when it comes to books that I read, I tend to be character and plot driven as opposed to atmosphere or setting.

But if I were to choose a game to play, I'll probably find myself be like, “Oh, what's the atmosphere like? Give me this huge open world.”

So for you, are you drawn to books that tend to be more like that huge sprawling type of a story? Or do you focus on the story itself helping you lose yourself as opposed to the setting?

Leah Konen:

Personally, I think the story itself as opposed to the setting. I always think settings are important. I think even in a more intimate, realistic setting, you still do get that whole world.

I think, especially like with You Should Have Told Me, the setting is Kingston, New York, it's like a mountain town between the Hudson River and the Casco Mountains, right north of New York City. But really the setting is like living as a mother who has a six-week-old infant.

And that to me is, kind of being in Janie's head for that as things are unraveling and her partner is going missing and all these things are happening, to me that is a world, that's a whole world.

And it's a world that it's actually like, yeah, it's not fantasy, but until you experience it everyone will be like, “Oh yeah, baby can be hard,” or whatever. But until you are actually living it, there's no way to prepare yourself for it.

So, I think in ways books do kind of like open us up to these worlds, even if they aren't fantasy or some kind of fantastical like dune kind of place. They still are opening us up into the world of a certain character's head. And to me that's what's so fascinating.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. And so, we should say for people who haven't read, You Should Have Told Me yet, the kind of crux and launching point of the plot, I don't want to give too, too much away, but Janie's the main character, just had a baby, needs a break, kind of lies down.

Her partner is like, “I'll take care of the baby”, he’s like, “Just relax.” And when she wakes up, her partner is gone. And then there's some unsavory things that happen that he gets accused of. Again, I don't want to give too, too much away, but-

Leah Konen:

Sure.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. With that type of story and you having a newborn and you were mentioning spending so much time with your partner playing different games and stuff. What launched this idea in your head and what made you want to tell this story?

Leah Konen:

Yeah. So, I wrote the first 75 pages of the book probably about when my daughter was about six-months-old. So, I had just been in it and I had had a lot of very similar feelings that Janie was struggling with that I think are incredibly common.

And when I was talking to other mothers, I found that a lot of people had experienced almost the exact same thing, but there's so much shame around it that people wouldn't even talk about it.

And people were DMing me and saying like, “I felt this way too. And I didn't even tell my husband because it just felt so wrong to be like, oh, I don't know if I feel connected to my baby,” when you're supposed to feel this very immediate love.

So, I had kind of just been in it and then my daughter was born and then it was immediate global pandemic. So, it was just a really wild isolating time to raise a newborn.

And so, it kind of just for me was based on that, but it was like, “What if I turn the volume up to a hundred?” And so, to me, you're already in it, it's already like a thriller. It already feels like a war zone, just like taking care of a child.

But then it's like if a one person who's like your partner there and supposed to be helping you is just gone. To me there was nothing scarier than that idea. I remember in the early, early days, my husband would go out to check on his garden for five minutes and if it took six minutes I'd be like, “Oh my God, where is he?”

You feel so much like you just need someone else to be there with you, kind of suffering alongside you. And so, I really wanted to capture that. But of course, I write thrillers, so I wanted to kind of intersect that with like a classic murder mystery.

And I think putting the two together created a lot of interesting ways to go, not only about what actually happened and who's the murderer and all that. But how well do we know that the people that we love and the people that we think we can trust with everything.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. Did writing this feel, like you said, kind of at least the first like 75 pages and while you were literally in it as you were saying, did it feel like a good escape?

Because I feel like we all need — when we're in the midst of a highly stressful situation, especially like you said, in the middle/beginning of the pandemic when there was just nothing, there was no way for us to get out. I imagine it had to feel a little bit like an escape to actually get to write these things out in a fictional way that wasn't harmful to anyone in your life.

Leah Konen:

Totally, yeah. It was really cathartic. And I think, I could have written it in those first few months, it was just too close. But I think at that point, I had started to feel a lot better. It was the summer. The pandemic was like … everything was still happening, but at least it was summer. So, we were able to maybe meet some people outdoors and stuff like that.

And then my daughter also had just kind of started to really nap in a reliable way. So, I felt like I just had like a little bit of space and it really kind of just poured out. I didn't come into it thinking like, “I want to write a book about motherhood or whatever.” I kind of just sat down one day and the first bit, it was just there.

And it's interesting because then as I continued to write the book and the more mystery parts and all that, when I went back to revise a year later, I would look at those first pages and be like, “Whoa Leah, were you okay? This is a little dark.”

And I don't know that I would've been able to write it now. I think just it being so fresh and so raw was kind of just like how it came, at least for the beginning, how it needed to be.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. I do think, like a different situation entirely, but I am clearing a novel now and when I wrote it, I was very, very down and depressed and I didn't know how to externally convey those feelings yet. I hadn't started going to see a therapist and how to understand how to use my words, speaking of like babies and children.

But the only way that I could have an outlet was to write the story. And like you said, I don't think I could write that same story now, weirdly, being in a much better mental place. But I know what you mean where it's like sometimes the only way to feel less frustrated with what's going on in your mind is to put it out in the world.

Leah Konen:

Well, yeah. And writing it down I think helps and I think it helps you, but it also helps other readers who, everyone's been in a place like this at some point. And I think sometimes reading about it through a fictional character is actually a lot easier than even just talking with a friend or reading about depression or something on the internet.

Like reading it through the — even if it's not real and it is fiction, I think just the way it can get so personal to get in someone's head can just be really, really helpful and satisfying for people.

Adam Sockel:

Do you find as a writer of thrillers and murder mysteries, do you find yourself drawn towards those types of books as a reader? Or do you kind of go completely left field and stay away from them?

Leah Konen:

No, I'm like, I write thrillers because all I was reading was thrillers. This is what I love. And I was actually, for a while in my career I was writing young adult more like romance, contemporary romance, which is really fun.

But I think the reason why I made the leap is because I looked at what I was actually consuming and it was thrillers, mysteries, horror, I'm a huge horror movie fan. That was everything I was taking in and I grew up on like Hitchcock and like old noirs and stuff.

And so, I was just like, “Why am I not doing this?” And I think part of it was just the fear of being able to pull off a mystery because it is kind of a different skillset, and it can be kind of scary to jump into something you haven't done before.

But as soon as I started I felt like, this is what I wanted to be doing. This is kind of hitting my stride, kind of feeling that.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. And actually I think I saw you might have said something on Twitter about this and I totally agree with you about, I know that there's always pressure writing a thriller to like come up with a twist that no one sees coming.

But I think you said something about like, so what if you saw it coming? The purpose of a story is to enjoy it and like yeah, if you still want to like see how it happens.

And I feel like it is interesting because if I guess the plot of a movie, I'm still going to watch it. It doesn't mean I'm going to enjoy it any less. And honestly, I'll probably be like, “Oh my God, I knew that, I saw that coming and I don't want to talk about it even more.”

And I feel like the same is true for reading thrillers. If I figure out something beforehand, that doesn't make me like the book less, that makes me want to talk about the book more. So, I feel like once you understand that, is it that feeling writing a thriller, like I need to come up with something that no one will see coming.

Or I guess like can you kind of walk me through that aspect because every thriller needs a twist or a hook that you write in there some way or somehow.

Leah Konen:

Totally. So, I do think my books tend to have like a lot of reveals and twists. But for me, I think the perfect twist would be like one that four out of five readers are going to not get. And one out of five is going to get. Because I think if it comes completely out of left field, it might surprise everyone, but it's not satisfying.

And I think one of my editors always says, he's like, “What you want to do is when the reader gets to it, they want to immediately page back through the book and be like, oh my God, she gave me a hint there and there and how did I not see it?” And kind of you put together all those Easter eggs and everything.

So, I think, also realistically readers are so well read, so clever, so smart. Especially in this genre. So, it's like you're going to have people who get it and I think that's okay, but I think it's nice to like keep people on their toes as well.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. I love what you're saying about it can't come completely out of left field. I love much like so many other readers, I love — stories, but I feel like there's some of her stories where at the end, like when … does his big reveal, he'll basically say stuff where you're like, “None of that was ever in the text.” Of course, no one saw this coming. So, for you-

Leah Konen:

They’re like, “Wait, I don't remember who that character was.”

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, exactly. So, I'm just like, “Wait a minute, yes, you're right. I couldn't have seen this coming. But it's also because you didn't introduce that character until page 280.”

But for you when you're writing a story like You Should Have Told Me, do you know what the end is going to be? And so, you're leaving hints as you go, or do you kind of as you're drafting realize the twists in real time and then have to go back and drop those Easter eggs for your readers after the fact?

Leah Konen:

So, I think it's a mix of both. I think with actually the first two, with All the Broken People and The Perfect Escape, I actually changed killers in the revise. So, I fully went in a different direction.

This one, I think I kind of anticipated that that was going to need to happen. So, I did it as I was drafting.

But I think the bigger twists are there and the bigger reveals are in my head and they're kind of maybe being hinted towards, but then you definitely discover stuff as you go and you have to go back and layer it in.

But I think something interesting that happens regardless if you know ahead of time or you don't, is that as an author you kind of feel like you can put these hints in that you're trying so hard not to be heavy handed that it's just like it zooms right past everybody.

So, I think usually what happens is my readers or my editors rather and my beta readers will be like, “Oh, it would be great if you seated this twist in act one and act two,” or whatever. And I'm like, “I did though. You just didn't see it.”

Because we read so fast and if an author put something in that like was literally one line, people could just like zoom right by it. But then on the flip side, if every single other chapter they talk about their weird neighbor or something, then your radar is up.

So, I think it's just constantly going back and through revisions and finding that balance of making it clear enough that it peaks some interest but not so heavy handed that it's like, oh, this is obviously the answer.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. And you're right, like as the writer that one line feels so obvious to you, but you're right. There's some people who will randomly on a page skim half of the paragraph and they just won't even see that line. You're absolutely right.

Leah Konen:

Totally. I was just reading a Twitter thread that I had no idea if people do this, but I learned that a lot of people read audiobooks on two and three x speed, and I had no idea this is a thing. I'm a pretty fast reader, but I must be a slow listener because I'm like, “One x is good for me.” I'm like, “I need to take it in.” But it just blew my mind that people are able to comprehend stuff that quickly.

Adam Sockel:

So, I listen at 1.5 when I'm listening to audiobooks, but I will say I am online friends with Julia Whelan who's one of the most famous audiobook narrators around and she's been on this podcast and I've interviewed her a few times. And like I said, we're buddies and we've talked about this and she gets so mad that people will speed up their listening because she's like, “I'm reading this in a specific way to put this specific tone.”

But yeah, I couldn't do like two or three x but I will admit (I hope she's not listening this episode), that I listen to 1.5 because I feel like most narrators of audiobooks, the purpose is to slow down so that they get every syllable and word. And you're just like, “Oh, my God. Come on, let's go.” But two and three, that's too-

Leah Konen:

Although maybe 1.5 is like the gateway drug and maybe in a couple years you'll be back here and you'll be like, “I'm at three x now.”

Adam Sockel:

Listen, I will say having used to work for OverDrive and the app Libby, one of the things, I'll give it some free promotion because I love everyone there and I will still use the app every day. One thing Libby lets you do is you can speed up by like 0.05%.

So, you can go from like 1 to 1.05 to 1.1 to 1.15. And so, that's how I started it. I built myself up to 1.5 over time because if you move it up by five hundredths, you don't really even know that. And then you just keep doing that, but-

Leah Konen:

It's like a marathon runner, like training.

Adam Sockel:

Hundred percent.

Leah Konen:

You're slowly building tolerance.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, exactly. Okay, so I have one last question for you. I always leave the episode by having the author give a recommendation of any kind that you want.

It could be a book, it could be a game, I've had somebody say, go for a walk or it could be anything that you want to recommend that you think more people should know about, a TV show, a movie. Again, it could be a book if you want, but anything you want to recommend, the floor is yours.

Leah Konen:

Okay. I have a fun one that I just rediscovered. It's a board game called Codenames. Have you played this?

Adam Sockel:

I have not.

Leah Konen:

Codenames, it's really fun. It's strategy, but it only takes 20 minutes to play and you can play it with four people and the conceit is that you're all spies, and so you have to get people to guess the words, but you can only give a one word clue.

So, it's kind of taboo but like reverse. It's really fun. And why I love it as a writer and a storyteller is you're giving a one-word clue, but your goal is to connect two or three different words. So, it gets you thinking about how, with one word to connect several different concepts.

And it's just like super fun party game or just with a couple friends. But I think it really actually has you thinking in kind of a really creative way.

Adam Sockel:

I love that. That is so perfect. Again, you'll have heard me talk about it in the intro, but if you haven't yet, go get your copy of You Should Have Told Me. It is so wonderful. None of you will see this, but Leah will, it's literally right next to my desk. I'm literally holding it right now. It is so wonderful. Leah, thank you so much for joining me today.

Leah Konen:

Thank you.

[Music Playing]

Adam Sockel:

Passions & Prologues is proud to be an Evergreen Podcast and was created by Adam Sockel and was produced by Adam Sockel and Sean Rule-Hoffman. And if you are interested in this podcast and any other Evergreen Podcast, you can go to evergreenpodcasts.com to discover all the different stories we have to tell.