Embrace change, take risks, and disrupt yourself

Hosted by top 5 banking and fintech influencer, Jim Marous, Banking Transformed highlights the challenges facing the banking industry. Featuring some of the top minds in business, this podcast explores how financial institutions can prepare for the future of banking.

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Using Behavioral Science for Financial Marketing Success

More than ever, financial marketers can trigger automatic action by applying behavioral science principles in marketing strategy and creative execution. If you have a behavioral understanding of your customer, they will find you, refer business, and share insights that will help your efforts succeed.

At a time when both print and digital marketing involve as much art as science, behavioral science is a critical tool for understanding how consumers will react to various tactics and strategies.

My guest on the Banking Transformed podcast is Nancy Harhut, cofounder of HBT Marketing. Nancy shares why marketers cannot afford to ignore behavioral science since it can shed light on why people buy or don’t buy your brand.

Jim Marous:
Hello, and welcome to Banking Transformed, the top podcast in retail banking. I'm your host, Jim Marous, founder and CEO of the Digital Banking Report, and co-publisher of Financial Brand. More than ever financial marketers can trigger automatic action by applying behavioral science principles in marketing strategy and creative execution. If you have a behavioral understanding of your customers, they will find you, refer business, and share insights that will help your effort succeed.

Jim Marous:
At a time when both print and general marketing involve as much an art as a science, behavioral science is a critical tool for understanding how consumers react to various tactics, strategies, and implementations. My guest in the Banking Transformed Podcast is Nancy Harhut, co-founder of HBT Marketing. Nancy shares why marketers cannot afford to ignore behavioral science since it can shed light on who buys and doesn't buy your brand. You'll also hear that a thunderstorm comes overhead while Nancy is presenting. We apologize for any disruption that's occurring.

Jim Marous:
Behavioral science is a breakthrough for marketers, enabling them to understand consumer behavior and thought patterns, which in turn allows them to craft better, more targeted communications and campaigns. Nancy Harhut is the author of the book, Using Behavioral Science in Marketing: Drive Consumer Action and Loyalty By Prompting Instinctive Responses. She's one of the highest rated speakers at the Financial Brand forum over the last several years, where she also will again share her wisdom this November in Las Vegas.

Jim Marous:
Nancy, let's start at the beginning. What is behavioral science, and why should marketers care?

Nancy Harhut:
That's a great place to start, Jim. Behavioral science very simply is the study of how people behave. Behavioral scientists have spent a lot of time and energy actually studying how people make decisions. What they've found is really interesting. What they found is people, all of us really, men, women, young, old, rich, poor, very educated, not as educated, B2B environment, B2C environment, all of us rely on decision making shortcuts. It's a way to conserve mental energy because we couldn't possibly weight every bit of information before making a decision or we'd never get around to making any.

Nancy Harhut:
So, we've developed these hardwired behaviors, and we kind of cruise along through life on autopilot. When we encounter a certain situation, we default to these hardwired behaviors, giving them little if any thought. The important thing for marketers is behavioral scientists have identified hundreds of these automatic hardwired behaviors, and some of them influence what we read, who we trust, and when we buy. That's why it's so key that marketers get out in front of this, that marketers understand what the behavioral triggers are, and that they incorporate them into the strategies and the creative executions that they put out into the marketplace because it will increase the likelihood that people will do what you want them to do.

Jim Marous:
It's interesting, because behavioral science isn't new, but it's not a static behavior. It's not something that once you know it, it's that way forever. How has behavioral science changed marketing from let's say a decade or more ago? I know you're a marketer by trade. Just importantly, what has changed in marketing as a result of the pandemic?

Nancy Harhut:
Two really good questions, actually. I think one of the biggest changes I've seen in the last 10 years with respect to behavioral science-influenced marketing is behavioral science has entered the C Suite. There are companies now that have Chief Behavioral Science Officers, and that's kind of a major thing. When you think about it, it makes perfect sense because marketers are all about human behavior, they're all about influencing behavior. Behavioral science allows you to do that, so why wouldn't you want a C level person at the table?

Nancy Harhut:
That's something that's happened really just in the last 10 years, maybe just in the last five. Coming out of the pandemic, that's also been a very interesting time. We went into this pandemic and most of us have never really lived through anything like that before. So, we weren't sure what to do. When you talk about making decisions, we weren't sure what kind of decisions to make. So, we ended up relying a lot on social proof, probably even moreso than usual. Social proof of course is the idea that when people aren't sure of what to do, they look around, they see what other people are doing, particularly other people like themselves, and they follow the lead.

Nancy Harhut:
If everyone was running out going and buying toilet paper, you know what, we went out and we bought toilet paper. We were hoarding toilet paper. If people wore masks, we wore masks. If people didn't wear a mask, we would maybe be more inclined to not wear a mask. We looked at what other people were doing. Social proof has I think been amplified during the pandemic, but the other thing that happened during the pandemic is people's routines were interrupted and their freedom was kind of restricted. Suddenly, you weren't doing things the way you used to be able to do them. You were being told what to do, what you couldn't do.

Nancy Harhut:
That's a problem for people because people have a very deep innate need to be in control of themselves and their environments. Behavioral scientists call it "Autonomy Bias". It's this really strong desire we have to not be told what to do. So, coming out of the pandemic, people I think are going to really want to have even more autonomy than they normally would have, because for so long they couldn't do certain things, or they were told that they had to do certain things. Their routines were interrupted, and now things are starting to get a little bit back towards normal. People are going to really want to be able to exert influence and have control, and make decisions for themselves.

Nancy Harhut:
So, marketers should really embrace autonomy bias, the idea of autonomy bias, in their marketing. How you do that, you do that by giving people choices, you do that by reminding people that they're the ones in control. Those are some of the things that I think we're going to see a lot more of in this period immediately following the pandemic.

Jim Marous:
Nancy, you say people often rely on decision making shortcuts. Does this also apply to decisions as it relates to finances, money, and where people bank?

Nancy Harhut:
Sadly, the answer is yes. We would like to think that when you're making a decision about money, about finances, that's the time when you're really making a well thought out, well considered decision. Sadly, that's not always the case. Very often, people are making decisions based on emotions. It's emotion that drives a decision, and then later they justify their decisions with rational reasons. They'll tell themselves a rational reason for why they did something, or they'll tell other people if other people ask.

Nancy Harhut:
It really is emotion that drives a lot of our decisions. I don't want to say that people never, ever, ever put on their thinking caps, but very often they're not really thinking through what it is they're doing. They're not weighing the pros and cons. They're not putting together a list of cost and benefits. They're really just kind of going with their emotions. I think that's why what happens, we see people who are, what's the phrase there, buying high and selling low, which is not what they should be doing. Or they're sitting on a pile of money in a checking account because they're afraid to maybe get into the market, or maybe they carry a certain kind of credit card because of how they feel about that credit card, or what they think that card says about them.

Nancy Harhut:
Very often, people are making decisions for emotional reasons, and that applies to money decisions and financial decisions as well. They're just kind of responding now and justifying later, or rationalizing later.

Jim Marous:
It's interesting, before the podcast we talked about the fact that we had Danny Ariely on the show before. He talked about irrationality. He says it's in finance. It's just everywhere. In your book, you have 17 chapters. It's an amazing book. You have 17 chapters that talk about the principles and characteristics of behavioral science as applies to marketers. If bank and credit unions are always looking to acquire new customers, build stronger relationships, and create loyalty over time, can behavioral science really help financial marketers accomplish this?

Nancy Harhut:
I believe that it can. In fact, I have clients in the financial services space and I've seen it actually help. I'll give you two examples. I was doing some work for a small community bank, and they had wanted to acquire more checking account customers. No surprise, right? They used a combination of social proof, and the reason why, social proof we just mentioned earlier is this idea that when we're not sure what to do we look to others and we follow their lead. The reason why is this idea that social scientists have found that people are more likely to do what we ask them to do if we give them a reason why.

Nancy Harhut:
So, they sent out a letter, and what they said is, because so many large banks are raising their fees, you're probably looking to join your neighbors as you try to find another place to do your banking. The idea that it was because the banks were raising fees, that was the reason why, and then the social proof was you're probably looking to join your neighbors. The truth is, people may or may not have been aware of the fact that fees were going up. It was in the news, but maybe it caught it, maybe it didn't.

Nancy Harhut:
People may or may not have been thinking, "Oh, I really have to go find another alternative." But phrased that way, it kind of gave them this idea that "Oh, if I'm not thinking about making a move, I'm kind of out of it. I'm not doing what I should be doing." They got a 31% increase over their control by framing up the message that way. It really worked well for them. In another example, I was working with a small bank that had been a good choice for people for non-checking business, so maybe they took out a CD for example. But the bank of course said, "I would love to do some more work with them. We'd like them into our checking accounts, into our savings accounts."

Nancy Harhut:
And so we hit on something called "Commitment and Consistency", and that's the idea that once people make one decision they're much more likely to say yes when a similar question comes up. If you say yes once, you're much more likely to say yes a second time, a third time, a fourth time. We wrote to these people and just very simply said, "Hey listen, you're already a customer of ours. We really appreciate that. We'd love to do more business with you. Here are three things you might be unaware of about our checking and savings accounts."

Nancy Harhut:
The client came back to us and said it was the most successful mailing they had done in years. It was really just acknowledging, hey look, you're already a customer. How about doing some more business with us? But that idea of commitment and consistency, of planting it in somebody's mind, "Oh yeah, that's true. I already did make this decision. I don't really need to think it through again. I'll jus follow through accordingly because I've already made the decision." So, it worked very well for them.

Nancy Harhut:
I think when you apply behavioral science along with marketing best practices, you want to have the right list, and you want to tee up your benefits. When you have the behavioral science to the marketing best practices, it really is a win/win combination.

Jim Marous:
It's interesting, if you take the opposite of that where maybe are changing their decision making... We find in banking consumers are now diversifying the number of organizations they work with, opening new accounts with organizations like Chime, PayPal, SoFi and others. What does behavioral science tell us about these types of patterns, people checking out and maybe kicking the tires on things, especially in a digital world that's so easy to open new accounts? More importantly, how can legacy financial institutions actually combat this trend of customers trying out other organizations?

Nancy Harhut:
That is definitely an issue for your listeners. I think that the reason we're seeing people flock to some of these new providers can be traced back to novelty. The human brain craves the new and the novel. The reason the human brain craves the new and the novel, is when we find something that we think is new, it releases dopamine in our brains. Dopamine is often considered the "feel good" chemical. So, we get a hit of dopamine. It feels real good. As a result, we're kind of jonesing for that next hit of dopamine. We're looking for that next new thing because when we think we found it, we get this really good feeling.

Nancy Harhut:
We've got these new providers out there, these new ways of doing business, these new ways of banking, and we're like, "Oh, I'm going to check that out. I'm going to get me some of that." I think that's what accounts for a lot of interest in some of these new players in the market. A legacy bank or credit union, they might want to tap into something called "Framing". Framing is all about how you serve the information, the words that you choose to describe your product or your service, or your value proposition.

Nancy Harhut:
What you might want to do, is you might want to talk to your customers about what they might lose if they leave. You might be thinking, "Oh, the grass looks a lot greener over there," but are you sure it's going to be? If you leave, you know what you're going to be leaving behind. You're going to be leaving behind the customer service here that you know and trust. You're going to be leaving behind the quality products that you've relied on all these years. You're going to be leaving behind the relationship where we know you and you've done business with us in the past.

Nancy Harhut:
You're going to be going someplace else where you may not find those things. So, framing things in terms of what you may lose if you leave can be very helpful I think for a legacy provider. On the other hand, you'd flip that around if you were trying to get somebody to leave where they are to come to you. It would be all about if you don't make this move you're going to miss out on things. You're never going to be able to take advantage of our technology. You're never going to be able to experience this new way of doing thing.

Nancy Harhut:
How you frame things is really dependent on what it is you're trying to get someone to do, and who it is that's putting that message out there. Again, people are flocking to the novel, and if you want to keep them where they are, you want to talk about why the novel, why the new thing may not be so good, and what you might lose if you make that move.

Jim Marous:
It's interesting, your book is large. It's got so many ideas, but so many... I'm not going to call them rules because they're really principles, but so many ways that a marketer can improve what they're doing, can improve their communication, can improve their headlines, or emails, everything else. From your extensive research, and especially as we've gotten into more of a digital realm especially after COVID, how important today are simplicity, speed, empathy and physical convenience in today's marketplace?

Nancy Harhut:
I would say that those are very important things. There's a behavioral science reason why I say that. So, simplicity, the human brain actually does prefer things that are simple. Behavioral scientists talk about something called "Cognitive Fluency", which is kind of a multiple of a term, but it basically means that people prefer things that are easier to think about and easier to understand, but they don't just prefer them, they find that they're more confident making a decision about things that are easier to think about and easier to understand.

Nancy Harhut:
If something is simple, it's going to be easier to think about, it's going to be easier to understand. People are going to feel more confident making a decision about it. So, that's a very important thing. When we talk about speed, that's another thing that human beings love. We are very present focused. We don't like to wait. We want immediate gratification. Copyblogger lists the word "instantly" as one of the top five most persuasive words in the English language. Instantly.

Nancy Harhut:
WordData, which measures about 40 billion emails every year found that if you put the word "minutes" in a subject line, you can get a double digit increase in your opening rate. Everybody is focused on speed. They want it now. They want it now. They want it yesterday, that instant immediate gratification. Of course, empathy, I think any marketer can win if they just demonstrate to their prospects and their customers that "I get you. I understand what you're going through. I understand what your needs are. I understand what your situation is, what you're looking for. I get it."

Nancy Harhut:
It's not all about me and what I want to sell you, it's about you and what you need, and I understand you and because I understand you, you're going to feel a lot more comfortable doing business with me. You're going to feel that it's a good choice. You're going to feel that you're going to get what you're looking for because the marketer obviously has demonstrated that they understand you and your world. So, empathy is really important.

Jim Marous:
In your book, you have chapters on the power of creating urgency and exclusivity, as well as the importance of value transfer and reciprocity in marketing. How can financial institutions leverage these strategies when so many consumers view financial institutions almost as a commodity, or almost like they're all the same?

Nancy Harhut:
That is a good question, and I know that's something the banks and credit unions struggle with. There are times when you can use something like urgency, exclusivity, or reciprocity to help move the needle. The idea of urgency, you want to talk about deadlines. You want to talk about limited availability. You want to talk about limited options. Maybe there's a rate that's about to go up if you don't get in at a certain time. Maybe there's a certain number of free safety deposit boxes and once they're gone, they're gone.

Nancy Harhut:
That idea of urgency can really make people move. The idea of exclusivity is even perhaps more powerful, and then it's about how you feel. If you can make somebody feel that they're special, that they're singled out, that they're exclusive, people love that. We as human beings love to feel that we know something other people don't, that we have access to things that other people don't, that we're treated more specially than other people are. We just love that.

Nancy Harhut:
It's everything from lollipops for the kids and dog biscuits for the dogs, to a special phone number that only our best customers get to call, or a special line that our recognized customers get to stand in. Anything you can do when you're addressing people, when you're talking to them, when you're communicating with them, to acknowledge them and to make them feel special can be very, very powerful. Then the idea of reciprocity, that's that whole idea of if you do something for someone, or if you give someone something, even if they didn't ask for it, once they have it they feel like they should return the favor.

Nancy Harhut:
Human beings are very civil in that respect. Somebody does something for you, you feel you should do something for them. If somebody sends you a Christmas card or takes you out to lunch, you feel "I got to send them a card back. I've got to pick up our lunch bill the next time we go out to lunch." We just like to answer in kind what someone does for us.

Nancy Harhut:
If there's a financial institution out there and they've got a series of how to videos, how to apply for the best mortgage, how to determine how to save for your child's education, whatever it is, you're putting that information out there for free. People are taking advantage of it, and then when it comes time to actually do some business, who are they going to return to? They're going to return to the people that actually helped them when they needed it, that had that information out there.

Nancy Harhut:
I did some work for a financial services firm. It was neither a bank nor a credit union, but it was very interesting. It was a company that sold funds, and they were talking to their financial advisors, but it was a very specific group of financial advisors. It was a group of financial advisors who had conducted no business with them for a year or more. They decided they were going to use the reciprocity principle. They were going to send these people a gift.

Nancy Harhut:
You would say, "Nancy, that makes no sense. Why wouldn't you send gifts to the financial advisors that are doing business with you? Reward the good behavior." These people haven't done any business for a year or more. They're gone. But this company said, "No, we're going to send a gift," and they sent out an email that said, "Watch your mail. We've picked out a gift especially for you." A couple of days in the mail comes this beautiful New Yorker cartoon. It was cute. It was funny. It had a funny little caption with the recipient's name in the caption. So, every different caption had the recipient's name in it. It was framed, and it had a little note from the wholesaler that say, "Hey, how are you doing? I would love to talk to you and give you an update on what's going on."

Nancy Harhut:
They picked up $68 million of incremental revenue because of that promotion. So, the idea of reciprocity, of give to get, can be very, very powerful. When someone does something for you, even if you didn't ask for it, or maybe even if you did, you feel kind of obliged to even the score, to give something back in return.

Jim Marous:
It's interesting, you talk about it in your book also, that this is a good way when you do value transfer, that helps also as you try to collect more information from the consumer. They're willing to share personal information if they realize you're actually going to do something with it rather than just you're collecting more data.

Jim Marous:
Let's take a short break and recognize the sponsor of this podcast.

Jim Marous:
Welcome back to Banking Transformed. Today, I'm joined by Nancy Harhut, co-founder of HBT Marketing. We have been discussing how financial institutions can maximize the impact of their marketing by leveraging behavioral science principles. Nancy, we've been discussing the benefits of behavioral science marketing. What do marketers typically get wrong?

Nancy Harhut:
Great question. I think one of the things that marketers in general get wrong, but specifically financial services marketers, is marketers focus a little bit too much on themselves. It's all about "I, we, our products, our bank, our credit union, our checking account" and not enough about you. I always say to my clients, "We need to emphasize you." Let's not use "I, we, are" very often, but let's really boost our use of "you" because people are more interested in themselves than in anyone else.

Nancy Harhut:
If you can use somebody's name, so much the better. Sometimes we can, and sometimes we can't. If you can't use someone's name, the perfect substitute is the word "you". You is what I refer to as an "I" magnet word. When people are skimming and scanning, when they see the word "you" it literally jumps off the screen or off the page, and it detracts the eye like a magnet because it's speaking to the person. People are interested in themselves. If you can use that word "you", that's what's going to pull them in.

Nancy Harhut:
When banks and credit unions go on and on about what it is that they're offering, what it is they want you to do, what it is that they feel makes them different, it needs to be couched in terms of you. "You'll find this. You'll experience this. You'll enjoy this. You might be interested in this. You can do this here." It's all about you. It's not "We offer this. We believe this. We've always done it this way. We've been around for-" people don't really care. I think one of the biggest mistakes is being too we focused and not enough you focused.

Jim Marous:
You know, that's interesting because it's one of those things that have been taught in copyrighting classes back in the day. I remember that I still write, and if I come out and start talking maybe our podcast for instance, and trying to get guests, as opposed to telling the guests that we'd like to get how this will benefit them, you catch yourself and you go, "Geez, they don't care about what it's going to mean to us. They really do care about, what's in it for me." And not in a selfish way, but in a way that says "Help me and I'll help you."

Jim Marous:
Interesting, you also talk quite a bit in your book about the importance of storytelling to build better involvement and engagement. Why does this work? How can financial marketers use this to their advantage?

Nancy Harhut:
Jim, it's really interesting. The behavioral scientists have found that the human brain is actually hardwired for stories. That's how we make sense of the world. When you think about it, before the written word, stories were how information was conveyed, how information was passed from generation to generation. So, they're involving, they're entertaining, they're memorable. Stories actually really pull you in, and the human brain is, as I said, hardwired for them.

Nancy Harhut:
When you're just dealing with facts and figures, only two parts of the brain get activated, Broca's Area and Wernicke's Area. They're the two areas that are basically responsible for processing language. When you start to tell a story, you involve other parts of the brain. If you're talking about a verb, maybe somebody ran into the bank right before it closed, that will activate the motor cortex. If you talk about the smell of freshly printed money, that would activate the olfactory cortex.

Nancy Harhut:
The net/net is the more parts of your brain that get activated, the better you understand the information and the longer you remember it. That's really very important because we want people to remember what our marketing message is. We want them to understand them of course, and we want them to remember them. There's a neuroscientist out of Princeton. His name is Yuri Hasan. I'm not sure how to pronounce that honestly. He has a really interesting quote. He says, "Stories are the only way to activate parts of the brain so that the listener turns the story into their own idea and experience."

Nancy Harhut:
So, stories are the only way to activate parts in the brain so that the listener turns the story into their own idea and experience. As a marketer, what better way is there for you to take what you want people to think about and put it in their brains? Tell them the story. There was a bank a number of years ago. I remember, it was a radio spot. It was about a customer, and they were at their mortgage closing and they didn't have the paperwork they needed, and they weren't going to be able to get it in time so the bank just grabbed one of their employees, put them on a scooter, had them navigate the traffic and got the paperwork there in time.

Nancy Harhut:
You just remember stories like that. You can say to your customers and prospects, "We're really customer service oriented," or you can tell a story and let people come to that conclusion on their own.

Jim Marous:
It's interesting, in part of your book you talk about something I fully don't understand completely. You talk about the "Motivating Uncertainty Effect". Can you tell our listeners, and me, how a financial institution might use this to their advantage, as well as what it is?

Nancy Harhut:
It's interesting. It's another one of those pieces of behavioral science that marketers might find a little counterintuitive. Researchers at Chinese University in Hong Kong found that people are more likely to complete a task with an uncertain reward. A lot of times in marketing we think if we incent people, if we say "If you do this, I'm going to give you that," that's going to work. We know that it does to a certain extent, if do you X then I'm going to give you Y.

Nancy Harhut:
What researchers found was if you're not really sure whether or not you're going to get Y, or what Y is, if the reward itself is uncertain, you're not sure if you're going to get one, or what it actually is that you're going to get, that can be more motivating, this quest to find out is the thing that can be much more motivating? We did some work for a client. They were trying to increase the uptake of mobile banking. So we said, "Sign up for mobile banking, and we're going to give away a certain number of iPhones."

Nancy Harhut:
They exceeded their goal by 71%. Not everyone obviously was going to get one of those iPhones, but it was better than saying to everyone, "You're going to get a $5.00 statement credit," or something. That would have been a predictable award, but the thing is sometimes it's the unpredictability that can really be motivating. It's that "Am I going to win? What am I going to win?" feeling. So, you can absolutely motivate people with uncertain rewards.

Jim Marous:
It's interesting, you mentioned that sometimes some of the behavioral science recommendations may seem counterintuitive. You just gave an example. Are there any other examples of those counterintuitive recommendations that are actually principles that should be embraced by marketers?

Nancy Harhut:
Sure, that was certainly one of them. When we talked a little bit about that idea of reciprocity, like why am I going to give a gift to the people who aren't doing business, that was kind of counterintuitive. One of the biggest ones I think is loss aversion. What behavioral scientists have found is people are actually twice as motivated to avoid the pain of loss as they are to achieve the pleasure of gain. But in marketing, we're all about the gains, aren't we? We're all about the benefits, the gains, the advantages, all the wonderful things that will happen if you just do what I'm asking you to do.

Nancy Harhut:
Very often, I'll write copy and a client will say to me, "Can we just change that around a little bit? Let's make it more positive." The truth is, sometimes a little bit of negative actually is what's going to motivate people because people are more motivated to avoid the pain. So, maybe it's as simple as saying instead of, "Take advantage of this," we say, "Don't miss this. Don't miss out on this." I'm not suggesting we walk away from benefits wholesale. I would never suggest that because we know that benefits are important and benefits work, but a little well placed loss aversion can go a long way.

Nancy Harhut:
Sometimes, that can be counterintuitive. Sometimes, instead of saying, "This is what you're going to save if you act today," we want to say, "This is how much more it's going to cost you if you wait until tomorrow." It's kind of not necessarily emphasizing the positive, but motivating the behavior because people want to avoid losses. They want to not make mistakes.

Jim Marous:
We're getting near the end. I'm wondering, if you're to give one major recommendation, what would it be to tell our listeners that they could take from your book, and why would it matter? In other words, what's one thing that financial institutions really need to do now?

Nancy Harhut:
I think that one thing that financial institutions need to do is they need to realize that even though they're talking about a very serious subject, even though they're talking about money and finances, and people's financial futures, their customers and prospects aren't always making well thought out, well considered decisions. They're cruising along on autopilot. They're not really thinking things through. So, anything a bank or a financial institution can do to make information more salient, to get people to notice it more, and to make it more understandable, make it easy to understand, and to just help prompt people to take the behavior that they should take because it would ultimately benefit them, that would be a good thing.

Nancy Harhut:
So, it's not only relying on the marketing best practices, but infusing those marketing best practices with the behavioral science because that will in fact help increase the likelihood that people will do what it is you're asking them to do. Ultimately, that's going to benefit them as well as the bank or the credit union.

Jim Marous:
Unfortunately, we don't have nearly enough time to cover everything in your new book. I'm excited to be able to join you again at the Financial Brand forum, where you've really become a regular. I think you've been to two or three different Financial Brand forums for me, joining us again this November in Las Vegas. For those who can't attend the Financial Brand forum, how can listeners to the Banking Transformed Podcast not only get your book, but learn more about what you can share to the banking industry?

Nancy Harhut:
Sure, I certainly hope I see everybody at the forum because it is well worth your time. If for some reason you can't make it, I'd love to connect with you on social media. You can find me on LinkedIn. My name is Nancy Harhut. You can find me on Twitter @NHarhut. You can go to my agency's website. We're HBT Marketing. HBT stands for Human Behavior Triggers. You can find us at HBTMarketing.com. We're based in Massachusetts. HBT and KTG.com, [inaudible 00:32:15] marketing. Then I would love it if people wanted to pick up the book. You can find it on Amazon. This morning, it was the number one new release in business marketing, and the number one new release in consumer behaviors. So, that was pretty cool.

Jim Marous:
That's very cool.

Nancy Harhut:
You can also find it at Kogan Page. They're the publisher. At the end of this month, on August 30th, it will be available everywhere in North America that are fine books are sold, your Targets, your Barnes and Nobles, your airport bookstores. Nothing like pre-ordering to help the author. So, order one up right now.

Jim Marous:
There you go. You know Nancy, it's been so great to have you on the show today. You share so much. As you mentioned to me before we started, the book is really a large textbook, but the reality is, as I read through the pages ahead of time, you break it all down in such a way that you can take a chapter at a time and improve the way you market. It is a whole lot easier than learning everything about AI, and all these other things. You give a case studies, a lot of examples that really make it so that you can take away so much from your book.

Jim Marous:
Again, thank you so much for being on this show today, and I really appreciate you being on.

Nancy Harhut:
Thank you, I really appreciate it too.

Jim Marous:
Thanks for listening to Banking Transformed, the winner of three international awards for podcast experts. If you enjoyed today's interview, please take some time to give our show a five star rating. Also, be sure to catch my recent articles in the Financial Brand, and check out the research they're doing for the Digital Banking Report.

Jim Marous:
This has been a production of Evergreen Podcast. A special thank you to our producer, Leah Haslage, audio engineer Sean Rule-Hoffman, and video producer Will Pritts. I'm your host, Jim Marous. Until next time, remember the aim of selling is to satisfy a customer need. The aim of marketing is to figure out what that need is.

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