White Advantage,
Systemic Inequality,
and the Paths to Change
Stephen Dorsey delves deeper into racial discourse through conversations with insightful guests who have their own take on what’s at play. Because it’s time to Be Better, Do Better, Live Better, Together. Presented by Flatiron Wealth Management.
Cassidy Caron
| S:2 E:2On this episode, we're honored to speak with President of the Métis National Council Cassidy Caron. She and Stephen discuss the Métis people, residential schools, the Pope's visit to Canada, and more.
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Stephen:
Hello, welcome back to Black & White, a rallying place where we come together to learn and hold everyone gently to account, a podcast for the ally in all of us. I'm your host, Stephen Dorsey. Black & White is recorded in Toronto, Canada, on the traditional territory of the many nations, including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinaabe, the Chippewa, the Hodenoshawnee, and a home to many diverse First Nations, Inuit, and Métis people.
My guest today is Cassidy Caron, the Métis National Council President. She was elected to role in September, 2021, the first woman to be elected to the position of president, at the age of 29, and the first new leader in over 18 years. Born in Rossland, BC, her family roots go back to the historic Métis communities of Batoche and St. Louis, Saskatchewan. She graduated with a BA from Vancouver Island University, and prior to taking the lead of the MNC, was the youth minister for the Métis Nation of BC.
President Caron has been called a nation builder, a leader who is committed to transparency and accountability, and someone who has pledged to use their knowledge, skills, and perspectives for the benefit of the Métis people. Welcome to Black & White, President Caron. It's a real honor to have you with us today.
Pres. Caron:
Thank you for such a kind introduction.
Stephen:
I reached out to you last year after I heard of your election. I saw you on TV. I was super impressed. And before we get into it, I just want to ask you. How do you go from university to some work with the government to being a consultant? And next thing you know, essentially you've become a politician of representing your people. How does that turn happen?
Pres. Caron:
I mean, yeah. It happened really quickly. Yeah, of course, but as Métis people, politics is just kind of in our blood. Ever since the ethnogenesis of Métis people, we've kind of always been a people who are ready and willing to fight and serve our people, and so it's in my blood. And really, it all came through the relationships that I've been building throughout my entire life and all of the different aspects of my education and then my career. When I dipped my toes into politics when I was the youth minister out at Met Nation, British Columbia, everything that I did, it was just really important to me to build relationships with everyone and anyone wherever I went. I think that's really what led me to being in this position.
Stephen:
Amazing, amazing. And really it sounds like it was also kind of a generational shift to have a woman, a young person, someone with obviously a lot of skills and capabilities, so congratulations.
Pres. Caron:
Thank you.
Stephen:
So we have people listening to this podcast in Canada and the United States, really all over the world, and so I always find it important to orient people who may not be as familiar. And so in the territory now called Canada, indigenous people are comprised of three distinct nations, including the Inuit, which, for many centuries were called Eskimos. I use that word just to give people context. First Nations, where Americans may call them Native Indians. And of course, the Métis people who finally received official recognition. I'm always amazed that about our history here in Canada. Only in 1982 in the Canadian constitution, if I'm correct.
With our time that we have today, President Caron, I want to dig deeper into some knowledge of the Métis people and about the centuries long struggle and recognition of the Métis people on this territory for respect and equality, and also some of the recent progress that's been made, and the really continuing journey towards reconciliation and equality.
Let's talk a little bit about the history of the Métis people. Who are the Met people? What is some of that history and can you give us a quick summary and why it's such a distinct community? I think it's really important to ground people in that history.
Pres. Caron:
Sure. The Métis Nation, as you said, we are a distinct indigenous people and emerged through a process of ethnogenesis in the early 18 hundreds in the historic Northwest here in Canada, and ethnogenesis, meaning that we were a blend of First Nations and European settlers here on this territory. But it's so much more than simply being mixed. You know? Ethnogenesis means that a culture was created, a people was created, a nation was created with a shared history, language, culture, collective consciousness.
Really, now, Métis people, if you look back in history, we hold a central place in the history and really the development of Canada and this country as it is now. Yeah, so today the Métis nation, we're comprised of citizens and communities that were recognized and identified as being part of this country historically, as well as individuals and communities who are accepted as being part of our people today, and so the Métis Nation, the Métis National Council, which I'm the president of, is represented by democratically elected governments, Métis governments such as the Métis Nation of British Columbia, Métis Nation of Alberta, Métis Nation of Saskatchewan and Métis Nation of Ontario.
Collectively, these governments come together and they mandate the Métis National Council as the body to represent the Métis nation at the national and international levels. When we talk about the Métis Nation homeland, to give the listeners a little bit of an understanding, it includes communities in that historic Northwest, which spans from northwest Ontario all the way to northeast British Columbia, parts of the Northwest Territories, and even the northern part of the United States, along that, what is now the Canadian US border.
Of course the territory doesn't mean that we encompassed the entire landscape of that homeland, but rather communities throughout that landscape. In a Cree term, which is [Cree 00:06:41], it really describes the relationship and the responsibilities that our communities had with and to each other and to understand how our communities were connected all the way from northwestern Ontario to northeastern British Columbia.
There was a lot that has taken place within Canada's history that has really pushed our people around this country, displaced us from our traditional lands, and a lot of deep history rooted throughout the process of European settlement and then the formulation of Canada as a country today. But yes, today we are a very proud nation of people here in Canada and representing ourselves, continuing to fight for the recognition and implementation of our inherent rights, which are enshrined in our constitution here in Canada. As you said, we were recognized in the constitution of Canada, and so today we continue to work alongside the federal government and really educate and raise awareness and continue to push for that recognition and implementation of our rights.
Stephen:
Amazing, amazing. Thank you for that. I think it's so enlightening to hear it directly from the leader of the Métis people. You said history, which is kind of interesting. So first of all, I'm biracial, so I'm French Canadian and black. My biological father was from upstate New York, a black man from the United States. But what's interesting is it's really interesting being biracial because you're always trying to explain. I've had to explain who I am, where I come from, what my this mix means. And of course, there's always been a community.
Now, when I went to school, in the nine early 1980s, and I read the history books, the story of the Métis People was the French Canadian settlers came and they made friends with First Nations people. They called them Indian people, and then of course they made babies and those babies were Métis and that's the term.
And then, there was this bad guy named Louis Riel, and he was trying to fight against Canada, and then, he was accused of being a traitor and his life taken. He was hanged. And of course, we know that that's a whole bunch of nonsense. Louis Riel is one of the central figures in Métis History and leadership, and I would say an activist.
Maybe could you tell us a little bit more about who he was, why he's so important to the Métis people, and why after all these years now we're revisiting the whitewashed history, if I can call it that, who we were told he was and who really he was and why we should look at him from a different lens today.
Pres. Caron:
Yeah, for sure. I think it always comes down to who's telling that history and what are the motivations behind why that particular part of the narrative has been perpetuated for so long and whose voices have been left out of really sharing and describing and speaking about these narratives.
As you say, Métis people ourselves have been left out of describing our history as we remember it. Because of that, that's not what's taught in history books. There's definitely a shift in Canada now to wanting to understand the full truth of Canada's history and understand the different perspectives that get us to there. But this is definitely one of those pieces.
Louis Real was absolutely one of our heroes within the Métis Nation. I always talk about the Métis people. If there's one word that really describes us and encompasses our history and who we are, it's resistance. Ever since the ethnogenesis of met people, we have been resisting. Resisting colonization, assimilation, the dispossession of our lands, people ignoring our rights and our connections to our territory and our rights to a livelihood as we so choose to make that livelihood.
One of the pieces throughout our history was Louis Riel fighting for our rights. As European settlers were coming over to Canada en masse, they were settling and really taking up the territory that Métis people had been living in and making their livelihood from for so long, being pushed aside. It was land that was "owned." There was never any purchase by the Hudsons Bay Company and the Northwest Company.
Stephen:
Of course.
Pres. Caron:
That land was then known as Rupert's Land and there was a sale of Rupert's land to what is now Canada. During that time, Métis people who had been living there for so long, and as I say, that's where they were making their livelihood, really were resisting that. They said, "You know you have no right to sell this land." And so Louis Riel was one of those people. He had an education and Métis people went to him to say, "Help us." We need to fight back against this.
He brought our people together. He fought for equal representation of Métis people as Canada was establishing it. Louie Riel actually was the one who kept petitioning what is now the Canadian government, and actually was the one who led Manitoba into Confederation here in Canada. He was the one who negotiated that with what is now Canada.
Stephen:
And just to orient people, this is the middle of the 19th century, right?
Pres. Caron:
Mm-hmm.
Stephen:
And I believe 1870's, quite a milestone year.
Pres. Caron:
Yeah, 1870 was when Manitoba joined Confederation. The Manitoba Act was signed, and in there, Métis people were promised significant things like land in what is now Manitoba. Louis Riel, he also came back into the picture in 1885, when again, as Canada was being settled, Métis people were being pushed further and further west across this country.
A lot of people, including my family, had settled in Saskatchewan, in Batoche and in St. Louis, Saskatchewan, which are neighboring Métis communities. Métis people were petitioning the government over and over again, sending petitions to Canada, to say, "We are owed this land. We were here. We are the caretakers of this land. We have rights to these river lots that have been promised to us." These petitions were not being answered until, in 1885, the petitions were answered by the Northwest Mountain Police, the what was then really Canada's military.
Stephen:
Yes.
Pres. Caron:
It's a really fascinating story that the battle of Batoche in 1885, where Métis people, it was the first time that the Gatling gun was actually used against our own people. Even today, I mean, it's the first national war here in Canada and it was against people from these territories.
It's interesting. When you go to the parliament of Canada, it lists out all of the different wars that Canada has participated and contributed to. And it starts in 1885, and it actually was a war here in Canada against people who are now Canadian citizens.
Stephen:
Crazy.
Pres. Caron:
A really nuanced and interesting history. But Louis Riel was one of those figureheads who really was there to protect Métis rights, to resist this whole settlement of our territories and imposition and takeover of our rights. For that, of course, he was labeled as a trader to Canada and he was executed here in Canada.
Stephen:
And he was vilified for decades, well, for more than a century, after his death, by subsequent politicians, government leaders used as an example to keep other indigenous people in their place, if you will. I find it interesting. You know? I talk about the pushback against the Black Lives Matter movement and all of the [inaudible 00:15:14] and All Lives matter and things like that.
Of course we've seen [inaudible 00:15:19] say, "No, no, we should keep Johnny McDonald's statue," and all that. But on the other side, we've also seen people go, "No, that was the past. It's not like that anymore," where Canada's not like that anymore. I say to them, "Really?" In Saskatchewan, the former premier of that province who was kind of well known for, I would say, his outrageous statements, but I recall there was a protest shortly after the announcement of the discovery on unmarked Graves, and he said, "The people who came to this country before it was a country and since didn't come here to destroy anything. They came here to build." They came here to build better and they built farms and they built businesses and they built communities and churches too.
I'll leave it to others to interpret, but from my perspective, this was another big pushback on the truth of the past, right? And the whitewashing of history. You know? He's had to account for his statements and we'll leave it there, but what are your thoughts about the continued pushback that we seem to be getting about recognizing the true history of this country amongst people wanting to hold onto this brand of multiculturalism that's kumbaya, everyone's happy, all the bad stuff happened in the past, it's great today?
Pres. Caron:
It's quite upsetting. I don't exactly know where it stems from, but I do feel as the thinking that's perpetuated, that comes to be, that if somebody is getting something else, it takes away from another. The recognition of our inherent rights here in Canada, if the Canadian government starts recognizing those rights, people start becoming defensive because they think as though it might take away from their rights, but that's absolutely not the case. I think it's just a really destructive way of thinking. I think it's so unnecessary and I think it comes from a lack of awareness, a lack of understanding, a lack of wanting to understand too.
Stephen:
Yes, exactly.
Pres. Caron:
I think back to Canada's confederation. Here in Canada, we talk about the fathers of Confederation. Think about the conversations that were happening around that table when they were talking about we're formalizing this country. We are coming here and we are putting this together and we are creating this great future for Canada as a country and future generations.
You think about the people who were sitting around that table. It really didn't represent the diversity of the people who were actually living on these lands at the time. You never hear about the grandmothers of Confederation or the sisters or the mothers or the people who were of these lands, and so you think about how this country was actually formed and the lack of diversity and the lack of perspectives that led to the decisions that were being made.
Now today, we are trying to change. We are trying to bring more people into these decisions that we're making for the future of this country, for our generations. For me, I always think about adding more voices to a conversation, adding more voices to the decision-making tables is only going to create that more inclusive future that we all want. I always come back to the fathers of Confederation, and I think then maybe that's where we went wrong in not having those grandmothers of confederation at the table.
Stephen:
In our charter, the Canada's charter of rights and freedoms, we have enshrined in there the ability for equity measures. Those equity measures are not to the detriment of other people's equal rights, especially minority rights, in this country.
I always find it interesting how difficult many people have with the concept of equity. It's not about taking something, it's just making, providing, added supports. It doesn't matter if it's to do with language or economics, right? It's about providing some equity measures that bring a greater level of equality where there was none before. Right?
I think that I was mentioning to you, I spoke with Manny Jules, the former chief of the Kamloops First Nation, and he mentioned that right about the fact that this is part of reconciliation is to go back and actually grapple with the truths so that we can all get to a place of understanding and move more into reconciliation. What's your thoughts around that?
Pres. Caron:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you hear it over and over again from many indigenous people in this country that we have to have truth before we can have reconciliation. It goes right back to the beginning part of this conversation, which is there's been perspectives and there have been truths that have been missing from the public awareness, the public consciousness, of this country. It's starting to be talked about now, and it's starting to be more understood. It's starting to be more accepted. I think we still have a long way to go to get to a place where everybody understands and acknowledges and accepts that this is actually Canada's history.
A lot of these narratives that Canada has always been a safe haven for everybody, that's simply not true. It's sad to say. I mean, we certainly have a country now today that is a safe haven for many people and it is a safer place for many people to come to. I absolutely accept that, but still today it isn't and it hasn't been that safe haven that everybody believes it to be. And to understand and grapple with that, it's hard. It really is hard for some people to understand that it hasn't been this perfect shining history where everybody got along and it has been kumbaya and everybody's always been respected.
It's hard to learn that or even to unlearn that, but it's necessary. It's necessary to know these things in order for us to move forward, because if we continue to ignore it, if we continue to ignore our truth, then it forces people to continue to live lies. In Canada, we'll live a lie until we can fully reckon that history and understand it, and then we can move forward together. We can understand what's needed to move forward and make a brighter future for us all.
Stephen:
Well said, well said. After the break, I want to get into the historic voyage to the Vatican in Italy earlier this year that you led, a Métis delegation. After the break, we're going to speak with President Caron about the audience that the Métis people delegation had with Pope Francis at the Vatican. We'll be right back.
Okay, I'm back with our amazing guest President Caron from the Métis National Council. Let's go back to March of 2022, earlier this year. And next thing I know, it's like every day I'm riveted to the TV screen and we have an indigenous delegation, First Nation Inuit and Métis people, and the Métis Delegation is led by you and others.
You're going to the Vatican for an audience with Pope Francis to share challenging testimonials and stories about residential schools. Maybe take us back to how did this come about? What happened? Then there was an amazing historical moment that happened. Maybe you can share that with us.
Pres. Caron:
For the listeners who might not know, or again, pieces of our history that aren't spoken about, residential schools was a system here in Canada that developed and implemented by different facets of the church, largely the Roman Catholic Church, and the federal government. These schools were all across this country, meant to take the Indian out of the child, to really assimilate indigenous people here on these lands into European culture. It really was this system that destroyed our families, our communities. It's tried to take away our culture, our language, our complete sense of who we are.
There has been leaders in our past, indigenous leaders, who have started to talk about these things. One of those people is National Chief Phil Fontaine. Many years ago, he was one of the first people who was so brave and so courageous to explain and to talk about publicly his experience in residential school. Since that time, there's been movement towards understanding these dark pasts, this dark history, and moving towards finding ways to heal. One of those ways, and again, largely driven by leaders such as Phil Fontaine, he's always been fighting for an apology, a recognition, and that acknowledgement from the Roman Catholic Church, from the Pope himself, that they played a role in these systems, in the destruction, the colonization, and the attempted assimilation of our people.
This has been something that's been talked about for a number of years, but there has never really been too much uptake by the Catholic Church for this, until just recently with Pope Francis, who ... my understanding, I'm not Catholic, but I do understand that he is one of the more progressive popes in the past.
It was a week after I was elected. I got a letter from the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops saying, "There will be a delegation of First Nations, Métis, and Inuit over to Vatican to meet with Pope Francis. Please put together a delegation that represents the Métis nation and get it back to us in a week."
Stephen:
Wow.
Pres. Caron:
And I thought, oh my gosh.
Stephen:
Wow. Well welcome to your new role as leader.
Pres. Caron:
Exactly. Immediately, I went to my board of governors to talk about how do we come up with a group of eight? We were told that we could bring eight people into this meeting with Pope Francis. How do we represent the Métis Nation with eight people? How do we represent our diversity and unique experiences?
We immediately knew that we had to take this as an opportunity to highlight, to honor, to uphold and uplift the voices of Métis residential school survivors, but we also wanted to represent the diversity of our communities, and so in the end, we came up with a delegation of eight individuals. We brought three Métis Residential School survivors along with us. We brought young people. We brought a community historian. We brought somebody who practices both the Catholic faith and indigenous traditions. He represents a balance there. We brought somebody who is from the LGBTQ community and a strong advocate for LGBTQ rights and advancing LGBTQ priorities throughout the Métis nation. That was important to us as well.
We did an incredible job in such a short amount of time to pull together this delegation that represented the Métis Nation in the best way possible. We spent quite a few months just trying to consult with communities and citizens and understand the different perspectives. It always came back to this is an opportunity to share with the Pope who the Métis people are, what our unique experiences are as Métis people, as they relate to residential schools, and to really have our survivors share their stories, because out of anything that is the most powerful story that could be shared. That's exactly what we did.
We went over to the Vatican at the end of March. The Métis National Council was the first of the three delegations to meet with Pope Francis on March 28th. We had about an hour with the Pope, and in that hour, we gave all of our time to the three survivors. We let them share their stories as openly and honestly and courageously as they wanted. And then I delivered a very short message to Pope Francis, inviting him along on our journey for truth, justice, healing, and reconciliation.
For us, it was important to show the Pope at that time that out of all of this destruction that has happened in our community, out of all of this forced and attempted assimilation, that we're still here, and that regardless of if the Catholic Church was to acknowledge that this had happened, we are already on this path of understanding our truth, of fighting for justice, of doing the work as directed by our communities to heal and to rebuild and to move forward for our future generations. We are doing this work regardless, but there is a role for everybody to play in reconciliation, including the Catholic Church, including the Pope. We invited him along on that path.
In that one hour, it was really interesting to see the Pope sit there and listen to these stories of residential school survivors. If anybody, any of the listeners have had the opportunity to directly hear these stories coming from the mouths, from the hearts, from the souls of our residential school survivors, it's impossible to not be impacted by the power of their stories, by the power of their truths. You could see that on the face of Pope Francis as this was happening.
Stephen:
Wow.
Pres. Caron:
When I delivered that message to him of inviting him for truth, healing, reconciliation, and justice, when he spoke to us, he spoke largely in Italian, but the three words that he actually shared back to us in English was he was listening and he looked back at us and he said, "Truth, justice, and healing."He said, "I take that as my personal responsibility." That was a really, really powerful moment, that first meeting that we had with him.
We had planned after this meeting to immediately go and share our reflections, what we shared with the Pope, what the Pope shared back with us. We planned to immediately go and share that with as many media sources as possible because we are responsible and accountable to our people back here in Canada and we wanted to get that message back to them immediately. As many people saw on the news, we proceeded out with two of our young Métis fiddle players leading the way.
It was important to me to share with everybody, with the world, everybody who was listening, that the reason why we did that was because we wanted to show the world that regardless of all of this terrible and traumatic past that has been inflicted on our people, we are still here today. We are revitalizing our culture and we are proud to be who we are. What better way to show that than with two young people who are revitalizing our culture through music? And it was an incredibly powerful moment. I can't say enough about the power and the courage of our survivors who shared their stories. And without them, we wouldn't be here today, we wouldn't be where we are. I truly believe we wouldn't have that apology from Pope Francis if it weren't for the stories that they shared.
Stephen:
Amazing. Thank you. I felt like I was in the room there, as you were describing. For those who don't know about residential schools, we're talking about 100 years that this went on, all the way up to 1996. You know? This is old and recent history, and over 150,000 indigenous children were taken forcibly from their home, from their families, some at a super young age.
As we know from the Global reports and the New York Times and other about the unmarked graves that were revealed, not that the indigenous people weren't telling us that this had been going on, just in the last year, that some of these souls that did not survive. It's important for the survivors, as you said, to be here to offer testimony, to speak for those that cannot. I've been in those situations and it's so powerful.
I'm a father of two young children and you can't help but be moved by that. And it's so great to hear that you got through. I wanted to read what the Pope said. I want to know from you. Did you know that he was going to offer some form of apology?
Pres. Caron:
No, no. It was one of these things. It was so fascinating. I was just talking about this yesterday with some folks from the Ministry of Justice here in Canada, and they asked me the same question. During our time over there, the way that Métis, First Nations, and Inuit were working together as well was incredibly inspiring. I had the absolute honor and privilege of getting to do this work alongside President Obed, who is the national president of Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami and Regional Chief Antoine, who is a chief of the Dene Nation and led that delegation on behalf of the Assembly of First Nations. We were all staying in the same hotel. We were sharing meals together, we were talking and debriefing after every one of our meetings. On the night before the general audience, the last day, we had just reflected on each of our meetings, on how the Pope was receiving each of our stories.
We were up until probably about 11:00 the night before just meeting, the three of us talking. We all said to each other, "I think he might apologize. I think he might deliver this apology," because we had gone into it knowing that, of course, we were continuing to advocate for that apology, and we were all delivering the same message that we wanted the apology to happen here in Canada on our traditional territories, on our traditional homelands. And so, us to think that he wasn't going to apologize while at the Vatican, it just wasn't fully on top of our minds until the night before when we were having these discussions, and so we talked amongst ourselves and we said, 'What are we going to do? What are we going to say if the Pope apologizes tomorrow?" And none of us are really in the position to "accept" an apology on behalf of our people. That's just not the positions that we're in. That apology is owed to our survivors and our intergenerational trauma survivors as well.
We had that conversation and we got into the room on April 1st and we were all seated there and we were handed out that ... and I'll leave it to you to read, but we were handed out a translation of what the Pope was going to address us with. Maybe I'll leave it with you to read that and I'll share our reactions then.
Stephen:
This is Pope Francis. "I feel sorrow and shame for the role that a number of Catholics, particularly those with educational responsibilities, have had in all these things that wounded you, the abuses you suffered, and the lack of respect shown for your identity, your culture, and even your spiritual values. For the deplorable conduct of these members of the Catholic Church, I ask for God's forgiveness. I want to say to you, with all my heart, I am very sorry, and I joined my brothers, Canadian bishops, in asking your pardon." So that's quite powerful. I'll leave it to you to tell me. How did that feel like?
Pres. Caron:
Yeah. I was given one of those pamphlets before the Pope even arrived in the room by one of our folks, and he handed it off to me. He said, "The Pope's going to apologize today." I said, "Okay, here it goes." I was seated beside our three survivors, and I didn't show them until the Pope spoke those words. I was sharing one of the pamphlets with one of our incredible survivors, Angie Crerar.
As the Pope was speaking in Italian, we were following along in English in this book. I pointed to the words when it got to that point, and I pointed to the words that said, "I am very sorry," to Angie to show her that that's what he was saying. In that moment, she just broke down. You could feel that emotional reaction to those words. I looked down the road to our other two survivors, Emil and Antoinette, and it was the same from them. They were immediately struck by those words. It had an immediate impact on them and that was such an incredibly powerful moment.
For me, I wasn't emotional at that moment exactly. I was there to support our survivors. It was in the time between when the Pope spoke, and then we had the opportunity to witness different cultural showcases from First Nations, Métis, and Inuit, and we had, again, our two young fiddle players, and they performed for the Pope. It was that moment that I actually just got so emotional to be seated between our two young people who are doing this work, showing the world that we're still here and this is our culture and we are proud to be who we are, and on the other side of me, these elders who have persevered and been so resilient their whole lives. To be in that moment was so emotional and so powerful for me because I know that this is part of our journey.
We are moving forward and it was incredibly powerful. The words that the Pope spoke, the words of that apology, for some, it's not enough. For some, it didn't go far enough for him to apologize on behalf of some individuals within the Catholic Church. That's not the apology that many people are looking for. They want the actual recognition and acknowledgement that it is the church who perpetuated these harms against our people. They facilitated these institutions. It wasn't just a few bad apples within this institution that did this. It was a system that facilitated it and perpetuated it.
Stephen:
Yes.
Pres. Caron:
But on the other hand, like I say, sitting beside these survivors and also coming home and hearing from other survivors, they told me that was enough. That was enough for them to continue to move down their path of healing. But being in this position as the national president, I have to continue advocating for the things that other people want to hear. For some, they want to hear a stronger apology. We have that opportunity coming up with the Pope's coming trip to Canada. That is what we continue to push for is a stronger apology here on our homelands to as many survivors who want to be there to witness that as possible.
Stephen:
As you said, I think that the church itself was responsible for residential schools. As you say, you're going to continue that work. Now Pope Francis has committed. It's booked. There's actually an official visit happening in late July here in Canada. They're going to three different locations in the country. I believe Quebec City, I believe in Edmonton if I'm correct or near there, and also in the north. I can't remember exactly.
Pres. Caron:
Iqaluit.
Stephen:
Iqaluit. I know there's been obviously lobbying to have the Pope go to other locations, including possibly Kamloops. What is your preparation for that? Now, the expectations must be almost sky high, given that your expectations were in some ways more than realized in Italy in the Vatican. How are you preparing? What are your hopes for that visit for your people?
Pres. Caron:
Yeah, there's a lot of moving pieces to planning a Papal visit, and especially in such a short time. I understand that most Papal visits are planned within 12 to 18 months, and I think this is like 12 to 18 weeks. There's a lot of moving pieces. There's a lot of folks that are involved in the planning. Ultimately though there are protocols and processes and procedures that need to be followed and they are directed by the Vatican, and so as much input and guidance as we give them, the final say of all of this lays in the hands of those folks over at the Vatican, including the site selection for the Pope's journey over here.
I think in an ideal world, we would have loved to see the Pope here for a longer amount of time to visit more locations. Like you say, there was an official invitation from [inaudible 00:40:30] Kamloops [inaudible 00:40:31] to visit Kamloops and to visit that first site where the unmarked graves was revealed. But again, ultimately, as much advocacy as we put behind this, it is in the hands of the Vatican.
We are taking this as these are the sites that we were given so we'll try to make the most of it. There's a lot of folks that are involved in the planning of it. I don't yet have full details on how long, where, what these events are going to look like, but in that time, I am speaking with our Métis governments to understand what are their expectations? How many survivors would they like to bring? How can we facilitate that?
For me and for the Métis Nation, I think the biggest thing that we are hoping from, our expectations, is one, that stronger apology delivered to as many survivors as possible, and two, commitment to action, because that's the other piece that is missing. You know? Actions speak louder than words. Action must follow apology if it is to be meaningful. When we were at the Vatican, we left Pope Francis with a book and that book included more stories from our survivors. It included also the pathway forward that we have proposed to the Pope, to the Vatican, to the Catholic Church, to the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishop. It outlines actions that they can take within the themes of truth, justice, reconciliation, and healing.
It was planned to give that to the Pope as a gift so we do hope that between when we were there at the Vatican and when he comes to Canada, that he spent some time reading those stories, continuing to reflect on this truth, and then really studying those actions that we have left with him that will contribute to hopefully systemic change that will continue down this path of truth, justice, healing, and reconciliation. It's our hope that, in his words that he shares, while he's on our territories that he commits to and really carves that pathway forward to really seeing through some of those actions.
Stephen:
A lot has happened since I sat down in conversation with President Caron in early June 2022 ahead of pope Francis's schedule visit to Canada in July 2022. As you've just heard, President Caron had high hopes that the Pope's visit would deliver to the expectations she detailed, including the hope for a more concrete apology by the Pope on behalf of the Catholic Church. I reached out to President Caron in early October to have a follow-up with her and get a firsthand recap of the outcomes from this historic visit by the Pope to Canada. Welcome back, President Caron. Thank you for making the time again for us today.
Pres. Caron:
Thank you for having me.
Stephen:
Awesome. When we spoke back in June, you shared your hopes for Pope Francis' visit, which took place between July 24th and the 29th, 2022. I know when we talked, you were kind of still figuring out what all the details of what was going to happen, where the Pope was going to visit, how the engagement was going to be with the Métis People, First Nation and Inuit people, so maybe can you tell us what happened?
Pres. Caron:
Sure. Lots happened. It was an incredibly busy five days when Pope Francis got to Canada, and when we last talked, and I said we didn't have a lot of the details, we didn't have a lot of the details that week still too.
Stephen:
Wow.
Pres. Caron:
There was so many people involved and so much happening to coordinate hundreds of thousands of people across this country to make this happen. There was a lot of highs. There was a lot of lows, pros, cons to the week, but an ultimate reflection of it, it was incredibly busy.
I had the opportunity to travel to every location in Canada that Pope Francis traveled to starting in Edmonton. The first event took place. I'd say that was the most historic part of the trip for Pope Francis when he delivered an apology on Canadian territory on our homelands at Maskwacis First Nation just south of Edmonton, Alberta.
We gathered on those lands and Pope Francis arrived and we had hundreds, if not thousands, of Métis residential school survivors attend with us. Pope Francis apologized. He did deliver an apology. He reflected on the words that were brought to him by residential school survivors back in March and April of earlier this year, and had clearly taken the time to really sit with those stories that were shared with him.
The apology that he delivered was historic, and I would say, narrowly completed one of the calls to action within the Truth and Reconciliation Commission report, which is to deliver an apology here on our homelands. I say narrowly because there are many people within our communities who say that the apology can go further, that the apology should be done on behalf of the Catholic Church as an institution and not just a few individuals within that institution, and apologizing on behalf of them, which is again, what happened.
Stephen:
And if I may, maybe I'd like to read the text of the apology, and on the back end of that, I'd like to know the difference of what happened at the Vatican and what happened on Canadian soil. But here is the text, I understand it, from the Pope, Pope Francis.
"I'm here because the first step of my penitent pilgrimage among you is that, again, asking forgiveness of telling you once more that I'm deeply sorry. Sorry for the ways in which, regrettably, many Christians supported the colonizing mentality of the powers that oppressed the indigenous peoples. I am sorry. I ask forgiveness in particular for the ways in which many members of the church and of religious communities cooperated not least through their indifference in projects of cultural destruction and forced assimilation promoted by the governance of that time, which culminated in the system of residential schools. Pope Francis, 2022."
Pres. Caron:
Again, as I said earlier this year, the words from Pope Francis, the words of an apology of any kind, for some residential school survivors within the Métis Nation, that was enough. That was enough for them to move forward on their healing journey, to have that recognition by the Pope that these institutions did harm, that even in individuals within the institutions did harm. But for others, there needs to be more and they need that recognition that it was an institution that facilitated this harm and that that's what they were hoping the apology would do.
That took place on the first day. From there, there was numerous events throughout Canada, a giant one at the football stadium in Edmonton. That one was more so tailored to the general public rather than specifically indigenous peoples and part of that penitent pilgrimage. Another event took place at Lac Ste. Anne, which is a historic Métis site, a historic Métis community.
When I say that there's highs and lows that took place throughout the week, the highs happened when I got to spend time with survivors who were grateful to be there, were grateful for the idea that we are moving forward on our healing journey. Another high would be the fact that it seemed as though the more time Pope Francis spent with residential school survivors listening to their stories, the more detailed his remarks would be the next time he spoke publicly. You could see that his understanding was evolving throughout his journey.
However, the lows continued to be that lack of concrete understanding or acknowledgement that the belief that one system is better than the other is wrong. It's absolutely wrong and to impose somebody else's belief system on another people while recognizing or believing that their way is better, it's wrong.
In some of the language that Pop Francis shared, including some at Lac Ste. Anne, it failed to recognize that was inappropriate and that we need to recognize that and move forward in a way, recognizing that everybody's belief systems matter and that we can all live in a world together and believe what we want to believe, and that going forward, and still trying to perpetuate Catholicism or bring that into our communities, that's not what a lot of our communities want.
I think that there's still a little bit of lack of understanding from the church that that's not okay, and that's not what our communities necessarily want or need to move forward. There was moments that it was really complicated and challenging to reflect on.
Stephen:
I can imagine. Just picking up on something you said on the positive side, I remember actually in our earlier interview you talked about you had left a book with the Pope and had hoped that he was going to read the additional stories and understand what you were looking for, a tangible action. Right?
Pres. Caron:
Mm-hmm.
Stephen:
I liked how you connected it to real action and that now you've talked about how he went from the different sites in Canada. It seems to me that, perhaps as an individual, as the leader of his church, he seems like he's someone that's willing to take in and learn. But then, there's the divide of what do you think is this not wanting to make the whole leap to actually apologize? What do you think's getting in the way of that in terms of apologizing on behalf of the Catholic Church?
Pres. Caron:
It's the system. The system is getting in the way, the institution of the Catholic Church itself. You know what? A lot of the challenges that as we as human beings face today come from systems and institutions that perpetuate harms. Systemic racism exists and I personally believe the system is holding Pope Francis back from saying those things.
I'll tell you one example of my perspective of this. As I said, as we traveled across Canada, we went to more events. The last event happened in the north of Canada here. And that event that took place before the public event, there was a small gathering of residential school survivors from the north who met un-televised with Pope Francis and a number of residential school survivors had the opportunity to again share their personal stories and experiences as they relate to residential school and the Catholic Church.
In every moment that I have spending with residential school survivors and hearing their stories, it's painful. It's hard to hear and it impacts the way that you are as a human being. That event that took place was so incredibly powerful. There was not a dry eye in the room, including looking around the room and seeing some of Pope Francis's security personnel were crying.
Stephen:
Wow.
Pres. Caron:
Because those stories that these people were sharing were so hard to hear. I just don't believe that you can leave a room after hearing those stories and not want to do something about it. It was moments after Pope Francis got on his plane, a few hours after the event with the survivors took place, that he was doing a viewing with the media who were traveling with him. There was a journalist from the Globe and Mail who had the opportunity to ask him a question.
This is unscripted. This is not televised. This is in the moment. That journalist has a very pointed question where he asked, "Do you now think that, after spending time with residential school survivors, hearing their stories, being on these lands, do you think that what happened here through these systems and institutions was genocide?" And the Pope said, "Yeah."
Stephen:
Wow.
Pres. Caron:
He acknowledged that what happened here in Canada was genocide and when asked why he hadn't said that publicly before, he said that he couldn't. He didn't think of the word that it was, but when that journalist used the word and asked, "Was this genocide," his immediate reaction was, yes, it was. I think that's a watershed moment in history for a head of something so big, the Catholic Church, to recognize that what took place on these lands was genocide, there's no going back from there.
The Truth and Reconciliation Commission Report, when they put out the report back in 2015, they classified what happened through residential schools as cultural genocide. I know many people fought to just not put that stipulation of just cultural genocide. They wanted it to be outright called genocide, but I don't think the world was ready to hear that yet. Nobody was accepting that it was. But now, we have to. We have to accept that what took place on these lands was genocide of our people, of Métis people, of First Nations and Inuit people, on these lands. Pope Francis recognized that. He didn't have his papers in front of him. He didn't have his people standing behind him telling him what he can or cannot say. And that's why. Again, this is a personal belief of mine, but I do believe that he as an individual sees what has happened here and wants to say and do more, but it's an institution that holds him back.
Now, moving forward, and as you say, into that time of action, it's the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops who have been tasked with rolling that action out here on the ground. Pope Francis described and kind of gave them marching orders to say that this is how you need to move forward, and it will be with the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops.
We are in a time now of figuring out how we're going to do this work with the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, of spending time with my counterparts at the AFN and the ITK to understand how do we carry this momentum forward. They have been given a directive by essentially their boss to do this work alongside of us. Now we need to continue to hold their hands and show them the right way to do this work.
We are currently in the process of working together, myself and the leads at the ITK and the AFN, to figure out what next. How do we continue to do this work? How do we make sure that the bishops are accountable and committed to moving forward, that Pope Francis's trip to Canada and delivery of an apology is not the be all and end all? It doesn't end here. We have so much more work to do and that's kind of where we're at now.
Stephen:
Amazing. Thank you for all that. It's such a great insight to hear from what actually happened from the inside, but one thing you touched on is about ... in my book Black & White, I talk about bridging the divides of understanding. The only way that you can get people to maybe see things differently is to get people together. Right?
As you said, there's going to people that thought it was amazing, other people that said it wasn't enough, but the fact that he came here, he met, and the impactful, as you were just describing, [inaudible 00:57:16]. I personally had former Chief of Assembly of First Nation, Phil Fontaine, share his own residential school story with me and 200 other people back in 2008. Then I just happened to be in the Yukon, and I had other instances where I heard testimonies of residential school survivors, which brought us to tears. You can't be in those room and not be affected profoundly.
As a matter of fact, it was one of the things that was a catalyst for me to start moving into a direction of really learning and becoming more aware. Again, I'm a glass half full kind of person, so not being indigenous or Métis or First, it seems very positive that all of this happened.
Pres. Caron:
I would say it's a step in the right direction. Absolutely. We've had leaders advocate for what took place here for years now, and it is a step in the right direction. There's so much more though that has to be done. It doesn't all necessarily need to be the Catholic Church. They have a huge role to play in moving forward, but there are other ways that our communities want to move forward with their healing journeys that has nothing to do with the Catholic Church.
It's on me as a leader of the main nation to find out what those healing modalities are that our communities want and advocate just as hard for those as we did for a Papal apology. There's a role for the federal government to play, and this is a whole other podcast that we could talk about.
Stephen:
Absolutely.
Pres. Caron:
Talking about the lack of recognition of hundreds of residential schools here in Canada, still. You know? There's schools that were in Métis communities, including the community of Île-à-la-Crosse, Saskatchewan, that saw through almost seven generations of Métis children. And the federal and provincial governments don't recognize it as a residential school, though it did the same things to those children as the ones that were settled through the Indian Residential School Settlement Agreement.
It's just absolutely painful to be in that community and meet with survivors who just want recognition that that happened to them as well. That's another part of the story that needs to be told and continues to not be told. Like I say, there's so much that needs to be done. The whole Papal visit, the apology, that was one piece, but there's a lot more of the puzzle to be completed.
Stephen:
I think that the Métis people are in good hands with you as the leader. Maybe just finish it off with asking you what would you see as one of your number one priorities? I think I hear it in your voice a little bit. Are you hopeful that we're going to get to the action and the change that's needed quickly in this country in the months and years ahead?
Pres. Caron:
Number one priority within this portfolio. There's so much. Within this portfolio, it's ensuring that our survivors get what they need. They're aging. They're old. They're not be here for much longer. I just want them to have justice and peace and to feel as though they are recognized. That's a huge priority for me.
Am I hopeful? Yes, I am. I am hopeful because the amount of people who are now understanding of what has happened in this country and the conversation is still going. I guess that's another big priority for me is to make sure these conversations continue to happen, that we don't just stop talking about issues that we as Métis face in this country and find solutions together, because all of the work that I'm doing is to bring people together within the Métis nation, but to ensure that people know, Canadians know, that if the Métis nation is thriving, Canada can thrive.
We are part of this federation and we need to work together and so we need to continue these conversations. We need to find solutions to the challenges that we continue to face and we need to build a brighter future for the Métis Nation and for all of Canada.
Stephen:
Amazing. Amazing. I'm with you.
Pres. Caron:
Thank you.
Stephen:
Yeah. President Cassidy Caron, National Council President of the Métis Nation, thank you so much. Happy Thanksgiving. Safe travels home.
Pres. Caron:
Definitely. Thank you so much.
Stephen:
Take care. Thanks everyone for listening to Black and White. If you've enjoyed today's conversation, please be sure to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app and take the time to rate our show.
Black & White is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. Special thanks to my producer, sound designer and engineer Noah Foutz, and our executive producer, David Allen Moss. A remind her that my book, Black & White: An Intimate, Multicultural Perspective on "White Advantage" and the Paths to Change, is available at your favorite bookstores across the US and Canada and online at Amazon and Indigo Chapters. I'm Stephen Dorsey reminding all of us that we can all be better, do better, so that eventually, we can all live better together.
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