White Advantage,
Systemic Inequality,
and the Paths to Change
Stephen Dorsey delves deeper into racial discourse through conversations with insightful guests who have their own take on what’s at play. Because it’s time to Be Better, Do Better, Live Better, Together. Presented by Flatiron Wealth Management.
Julian Taylor
| S:2 E:1Welcome back to Season 2 of Black & White, hosted by Stephen Dorsey. This season, we're bringing you more real, honest conversations about race and civil rights in North America, starting off with Julian Taylor.
A staple of the Canadian music scene for over 20 years, Julian Taylor is an award-winning singer, songwriter, radio host and producer. His 2020 record "The Ridge" earned him 2 Juno Award Nominations, a Canadian Music Award for Solo Artist, and many more accolades to his already impressive resume. A longtime friend of Stephen, Julian was kind enough to speak with us about his experience as a Black and Mohawk mixed-race man, healing and hope in a post-George Floyd world.
Julian Taylor's new album Beyond the Reservoir launches October 14th. Learn more at juliantaylormusic.com.
Find your copy of Stephen's book Black & White wherever books are sold.
Season 2 of Black & White is brought to you by Flatiron Wealth Management. Start your financial journey at flatironwealth.com
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Stephen:
Hello, welcome back to Black and White, a rallying place where we come together to learn and hold everyone gently to account. A podcast for the ally in all of us. I'm your host, Stephen Dorsey. Black and White is recorded in Toronto, Canada on the traditional territory of many nations, including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishnaabe, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wendat peoples, and now home to many diverse nations and Meti peoples.
My guest today is my good friend Julian Taylor, who over the past two decades has been one of Canada's premier singer songwriters. His critically acclaimed 2020 album, the Ridge, garnered a myriad of awards and was nominated for multiple Juno s, including a nomination for best contemporary folk album of the year and indigenous artists or group of the year. It's hard to pin down Julian and his music transcends all genres from contemporary folk, country, Americana, R&B, pop, and more. 2022 has already been an amazing year for Julian winning best male artists in the International Acoustic Music Awards and scoring five Native American music award nominations. In June 2022, Julian released the first song from his upcoming album, Beyond the Reservoir, titled Seeds, which is already getting a lot of attention from music fans near and far. We'll talk about his music career, his new album set to launch this fall, and also about our shared experience as biracial men growing up and living in a white world. Welcome to Black and White, Julian Taylor, and congrats on all your recent success.
Julian:
Thank you, Stephen Dorsey. Nice to have a chance to sit down and chat with you.
Stephen:
Yeah, look at that. We made it.
Julian:
So far so good.
Stephen:
Exactly, exactly. When I said we made it, I mean in many ways, right? Yeah, you're so busy. Congrats, man. I'm so happy for you.
Julian:
Thanks man. You too.
Stephen:
There's so much I want to discuss with you and of course, I want to get to some of the amazing music that is a big part of your life, so let's get to it. As I mentioned in the intro, one thing that we have in common is our mixed race background. So I'm Black and white, but you are a Black man of West Indian background, and on the other side of your heritage, you come with deep indigenous roots from the Mohawk First Nation.
Julian:
Yeah.
Stephen:
I saw a quote saying, "One of the things that hurts me the most is that some of the discrimination I face happens to come from my own." I think I know what you mean by that. Can you expand on what that means to you?
Julian:
Sure. Growing up when you are of mixed heritage, it's really difficult to find a place where you actually fit in because the lines are drawn in such a weird way these days. It's coming unraveled a little bit as we go along, but certainly 40 years ago, the Black community really was looking for Black people and the indigenous community, looking to indigenous people. It's funny that love sort of conquers all, and when you find somebody that you really care about, that you want to be with, you create something that's new, that's brand new. And I think that what happens is, mixed heritage people are new breed in a way. So we have the unique ability of universal connection to different places and people and things. And I think that in lies that sometimes there's a bit of jealousy.
Stephen:
Interesting.
Julian:
Certainly, there is a bit of, people misunderstand, and I think that that comes from the center of me trying to understand myself as well. I feel like if misunderstood, I'm sometimes misunderstanding myself and not representing myself properly so that others can understand me.
Stephen:
For me, grew up in a white world with white parents and white neighborhoods.
Julian:
So did I.
Stephen:
As I started embracing my Blackness, I realized I wasn't really Black, and people were kind of like, "Well, you're not really Black." And some people said, "Well, you're not really white."
Julian:
Yeah, I got that. My mom used to say, "Well, we weren't Black enough for the Black kids and red enough for the red kids."
Stephen:
Exactly.
Julian:
But we're in between, which is kind of nice. I think as I get older, it's something that I've embraced. I embrace it more because I think we're so unique.
Stephen:
Well, it's a really good point. And another thing that you said, which speaks to the similar point is, when you were talking about all the amazing nominations you got from the indigenous community and the music industry, you were a little bit anxious of even accepting the nominations. Does that play into, am I taking space that's fully indigenous? I don't know. I guess I'm asking you, where did that come from?
Julian:
That anxiety comes from that point that you made is, am I taking up space for someone who has a different lived experience within the community? The reality is, I guess I'm lucky in this way is when I say that I'm indigenous, these words fly around so easily. I am indigenous from both sides of my family. That's the truth. I'm built from the roots of Black culture and indigenous culture, which are both indigenous cultures. Part of my family is First Nations and part of them is not, and I have to tow the line between both, which is a very tricky thing. It's like you're on a teeter-totter, trying to make sure that everybody's okay with what you're doing, when at the end of the day, you have to be okay with what you're doing.
Stephen:
One of your heritage is West Indian, from the Caribbean, and then the other side is Mohawk and I think from Quebec. If I'm not, that's where your roots are. So tell us about those two sides of your families, some of the people that were impactful in terms of giving you an understanding of your roots and culture.
Julian:
Oh sure. Well, my dad's family's from the West Indies, and it's funny because they're from all over the West Indies. My grandfather, who's still alive, he'll be 101 this year, which is kind of crazy
Stephen:
Amazing.
Julian:
He's from a tiny island called Nevis. Nevis is very close to Saint Kitts. He moved from Nevis to go to Bible school and met my grandmother who was from Kingston, Jamaica. And my grandmother is also mixed. She's part Jamaican and part Jewish. Then they had their five children, and my grandfather moved around the islands, obviously because he went from parish to parish and that was his job. So many of the kids are born in different islands. My father happens to be from Antigua and so does my Aunt Althea, but my Uncle Dean is from Trinidad and Tobago and so on and so forth. We have cousins that are from Barbados and they just moved around. So when I say West Indies, I mean the full scope of the West Indies.
Stephen:
You've touched every island almost, right?
Julian:
Almost.
Stephen:
And of course, for those who are not aware, there was a huge migration of Caribbean people to Canada in the sixties and seventies and really, many of them settled here in Toronto, like your family.
Julian:
So they all came here. And my grandfather on my mom's side, his family's from Caughnawaga. His mother was born there and my uncle Paul was born there. He's the only living member of the family from my grandfather's side. My Uncle Gene is still in Caughnawaga. My mother's cousins and my cousins are all there as well.
Stephen:
That's a reserve of guest people called it, in south shore of Montreal, correct?
Julian:
It is, yes. It's very close to Dorval, very to Montreal. It's in fact, where the Oka crisis was right there over 20 years ago. My cousin Steffi was stank bombed in a church. I remember that.
Stephen:
Really? Wow.
Julian:
And she would've been about 16, maybe 15 at the time.
Stephen:
Crazy.
Julian:
And then my mom's mom, I don't know too much about her, but I know that that particular family has roots in Barbados as well, all over the place.
Stephen:
You've talked about this in other interviews, but in terms of getting a fuller understanding of your indigenous culture, your grandfather really played a major role, a big influence for you?
Julian:
Oh yeah. My grandfather was like my best friend and my mentor and obviously my grandfather. So he beat me up a bit here and there. Tough love was one of his attributes, I'd say. When I got out there for the first time, he had moved from the east coast and settled in a little place called Maple Ridge at the time, which is in British Columbia. And that's where he met my step grandmother, and they stayed there ever since, and that's when I got to meet them. I remember him visiting and I was going to Caughnawaga from when I was a young child and he would come to powwows, we'd meet there, and the family still does that. And he was very entrenched in his indigenous upbringing. His grandfather certainly was also...
It's funny how the world works and the universe worked, but he had an incredibly close relationship with his very own grandfather who was Mohawk and only spoke Mohawk and was a very tough individual as well. Obviously because of the time that we were living in, or they were living in rather. And he bestowed whatever knowledge he had received from his grandfather and sort of I guess, in line, because he never had any boys, I guess. And there's the weird thing. The girls should have gotten it too, and my mom did. My mom's been very influential in teaching me about my culture as well. But my grandfather was a huge influence on me and a teacher and a friend. And like I said, all those things.
Stephen:
In terms of life, what would you say one of the lessons that you carried with you all these years, and also, how did some of the teachings that he shared with you seep into your music?
Julian:
That's an interesting question. I think all of it's seeped into my music, and I think that the universal teaching of watching nature and learning from nature and being one and in tune with nature is probably the biggest lesson that I can take. Because as a young child, I remember such a simple thing as this, right? We're going camping and stuff, and he says to me, "You got to watch which way the birds go. Watch which way the trees go. See what the animals eat because if they aren't eating it then you don't eat it." Things like that. Just really simple, basic stuff to tell you the truth at first.
And when it comes to ceremonial teachings, I'm still learning and still wanting to be entrenched in the community in that way. Rubbing sage to clear the ears and rubbing sage to clear out your heart and your eyes and your voice, the purification of all of that is very important. But certainly, nature and the oneness that we all share as beings and those ancient teachings. It's really hard to explain it because I don't think you can. You can't really teach it in a way. You can tell it, and then you have to live it and then experience it until it becomes a part of your entire being.
Stephen:
I can relate with that. I'm learning still myself, very early on in my journey of my allyship with indigenous people and learning all the time. But one of the things that I always, we talk about this oral history passion from generations and [inaudible 00:11:48] generations forward, but we just talked about oral traditions and you talked about strong oral tradition and cultures. Talking about both of your cultures. You're talking, "One was stolen from their land and brought here, and the other had their land stolen." What a great quote. And you say it's been an uphill battle ever since, and the fight is far from over. From your perspective, where do you think we sit as a society as it relates to the past struggles, right? Because I talk often with all kinds of people about truth and reconciliation, and about an actual acknowledgement of the past truths. I'm interested in your perspective as to what happened in the past and how do you see the challenges that remain today?
Julian:
Well, I think that we've come a long way because I'd like to acknowledge that, not the entire population wants to sink us. There's a lot of allies that are really rooting for marginalized people. That wasn't the way it was 50 years ago. I think that around 50 years ago, the tides started to change and people started to see there was a massive injustice in the world and we needed to change it. Now, from being able to drink at the same water fountains and ride the same buses, we've come a long way. When it comes to the systemic structure that have developed, I think that we're starting to come in a long way and move forward, but we still have a long way to go.
Interesting enough that when we have social media at our fingertips, everybody's got a camcorder now, right in the palm of their hand. So now a lot of these things are a little bit more visible for people. I worry about our children being exposed to such atrocities and violence and things like that, but at the same time, I'm horrified, but there's a bitter sweetness to the whole thing where it's like, when you look at George Floyd, when you look at what happened in Camloops and what continues to happen, I'm really sad that now we're over 10,000 bodies found and not even a hundred more schools to go. It's going to be atrocious, but people aren't talking about it anymore.
Stephen:
It's interesting you say that, because we've talked about this, but it took me a while to even watch the George Floyd video, but really was the tipping point to spark this global reckoning for people to shine a spotlight on something that was always there.
Julian:
Totally.
Stephen:
And of course, indigenous people have been talking for decades and decades and decades that this stuff was happening in residential schools.
Julian:
Right.
Stephen:
It's going to be interesting when Pope Francis comes to Canada, will be actually by the time this airs, he would've already come, but he's coming in late July 2022 to Canada. And part of it is, there's a huge expectation for a more fulsome apology.
Julian:
I believe that they will get that. I believe that the church will do that, but I don't know how it's going to be received. And at this time it's like, show me the money. Right? Cuba Gooding jr, let's bring it.
Stephen:
Exactly. But I think that it's going to bring back the spotlight on an important issue. I think there has to be still some concern that the focus will maybe fade away over time.
Julian:
Yeah, for sure.
Stephen:
It's possible. I agree too. I hope it doesn't, but I hope that our children are also seeing that not all Black people or indigenous people are good either. Look at the Roe versus Roe thing. That supreme judge is not a good person.
Well, we talked about that, you and I offline. It's just like, I'll say it, I think Clarence Thomas is one of the worst Supreme Court justices that ever was. And actually, if he wasn't visibly Black, I'd say he's a racist.
Julian:
He is. He's horrible. But I'm just saying that because, you know what? As we fight through this whole mess, it's like, people are inherently good, I believe. And then you have a whole bunch of people who just aren't, and I don't think you can put a color or anything on them. They're just not good people. And I think that this fight is for good people to try to overcome. And one of the first ways to overcome that is like you said, truth. Okay, what's the truth? The truth is, you and I have not been afforded the same opportunities as other people because of our skin color. Truth. Truth is, you and I and many other people have not been afforded other opportunities because of our heritage. History is what it is. You can't change that. Residential schools did exist. Reservations do exist. Slavery did exist.
Stephen:
Exactly.
Julian:
And so, when you look at what's happened in history, the reality is, my grandfather used to always say history was always written by, it's always his story. Whoever won tells his story. And so now, we're winning a little bit. That's the difference.
Stephen:
I'm with you. And to me, one of the most important things is the acknowledgement of the truth. And I think we're still working on that.
Julian:
I think so too. I also think that the economics of the truth is very important as well.
Stephen:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, Julian, it's the perfect place to take a break. And when we come back, I want to talk about our favorite thing, music. And more specifically about your just released song, Seeds. We'll come back after the break to take a listen and talk more with Julian. We'll be right back.
Welcome back. I'm back with my friend Julian Taylor, amazing singer songwriter whose new album, Beyond the Reservoir drops this fall. Julian, I have had some amazing times with you.
Julian:
Ditto.
Stephen:
Yes, I've had time to sit in your man cave up in your cottage and listen to you play acoustic guitar and sing some of your beautiful songs, some of them that you were still working on. And I saw the creative process as you're thinking about what I need to change. It's your baby, your creating.
Julian:
Yeah, sure.
Stephen:
And I think last summer, when I was at your place, you played me Seeds. Just a beautiful song that was inspired by tragic news that shocked the world in 2021. And before we talk about it, when don't we have a little listen?
Julian:
(Singing)
Stephen:
They tried to bury us, but they didn't know we were seeds. Wow. What a line.
Julian:
Thanks, man.
Stephen:
Tell me what inspired this song and what it means.
Julian:
Well, this song is inspired by resilience. This song is inspired by hope, it is a rather tragic and sad song, but also at the same time, a very inspiring and uplifting song. It was a text that I got from my cousin Agika, and she was just really upset about what had happened in Camloops and certainly George Floyd, and the verdict there was okay, but some other verdicts weren't. And we've been watching the world fly towards impending doom in terms of race relations and acceptance of people in this world and what happened to their families. And I just wanted to comment on what I thought about it. You've met me and we've hung out a lot and I'm not a really aggressive person, but I do have real firm stances on things.
Stephen:
I know that. Yes.
Julian:
Yeah, this is the way I wanted to say it. But I'm not like, if I was in the 1960s civil rights movement, I probably would've marched with Dr. King and I wouldn't have probably been a Black Panther is all I'm saying.
Stephen:
So what did the text say?
Julian:
It said "They tried to bury us, but they didn't know we were seeds." That's the line.
Stephen:
Amazing. It's so interesting where inspiration comes from.
Julian:
Really is, I mean, thank you, Agika.
Stephen:
Exactly. Your new album, Beyond the Reservoir, will be released as fall featuring another song called Murder 13. A really personal song for you as it tells a story of a very close friend who was murdered in Toronto in 2005, nearly two decades ago. Can you tell us a little bit more about that song and the story behind it?
Julian:
Sure. I've lost a lot of friends along the way. Before I was 30 years old, I wouldn't have been able to even count how many people I'd lost. Some through tragic circumstances like murder, and my friend wasn't the only one that was murdered, but in his circumstance, it was a very hard thing to go through because they never really were able to convict anybody who did it. We got mixed up in a whole bunch of stuff when we were younger and he was mixed up in it as well, unfortunately, and was trying to change his life. And the very time that... It's so ironic that when people want to change their lives, how other circumstances and people, I guess the term of jealousy or fear or whatever, grips other people and they don't let that happen for that person, and that's a really sad circumstance.
Stephen:
You're with us or you're against us kind of thing. Right?
Julian:
Horrible. I also want to comment on the fact that growing up in Toronto, being a colored person hasn't always been really safe. I know that my parents would worry when I would go out at night, and other parents would worry, and I was one of the luckier Black boys to get out of it. My friend in this particular song was not, and there are a few others that are not. When I think about high school and before that, and I did grow up in pretty predominantly white neighborhood, but there were Black kids there too and Black boys. But when I think about it, I'm one of the only ones that's actually alive or not in jail.
Stephen:
It's so crazy, and there's many parts to that. One is lack of opportunity, lack of support.
Julian:
Stereotype.
Stephen:
Stereotype, systemic disadvantage. I talk about that. We've talked about this, Julian, about white advantage. And I gave the example of a Black family with a young Black boy who's 16 years old with a hoodie heading out to see his friends at the park, and we know from the data that he is 20 times more likely to either be harassed, arrested, or killed by the police. Right?
Julian:
That happened in our world. Yeah.
Stephen:
And it's really crazy because I think it was just last month that the Toronto Police Service finally called the press conference to apologize for finally admitting that this was actually the case for decades and decades. And of course, their apology was kind of a half apology based on the reaction of the Black community. This is kind of what we're talking about, and you lived it. I see it in Toronto here, and your friend was caught up in lack of opportunity, which led him to make bad choices. There's some individual responsibility, but the system and institutions that we have lead people to certain destinations.
Julian:
Certainly, and the idea of what it means to be a Black person, or the idea of what it means to be an indigenous person. For me, just using stereotypes, and this is just from the outside world. When you look at movies and films and stuff like that, movies like Boyz n the Hood by John Singleton where, I remember that scene with Furious Styles and Tre Styles as they're driving around Compton and he's like, "You see? There's a liquor store in every corner." When you think about the war against drugs and crack in the 1980s, it was veered to another side of genocide. So it's not everybody's fault. And of course, personal choice comes into hand. I made personal choices that weren't favorable for my health and the wellbeing of myself and others around me, but I got lucky to have a family and I had music as well. A lot of the time, I was actually at home or somewhere else playing music, which kept me out of trouble.
Stephen:
Well, it's a super important thing. That was your outlet, right?
Julian:
Yeah.
Stephen:
Well, I think the song is beautiful. I had a preview, of course. The song is called Murder 13, and really, it refers to the fact that your close friend was the 13th murder in Toronto in 2005. So why don't we have a quick listen?
Julian:
(Singing)
Stephen:
I can tell you still feel it.
Julian:
I can't wait for you to hear the album version.
Stephen:
Look forward to it. It's very powerful. Julian, what do you think needs to happen in terms of making more room for Black people, indigenous people, people of color in our society, and how do you see your music playing a role in that?
Julian:
The space that we need to try to occupy has to be one that is realistic and one that is uncompromised, one that is also respected and honored. And I also feel that, as the world sort of moves towards a different phase, what needs to further happen is, I think that we need to further listen, learn, understand the truth, and decide what avenue we have to move forward. What I'd like to see happen is one day I'd like to see that the entire earth become the color of the earth, and that way, we won't have these lines being drawn in the sand. It will be impossible. In order to get there, I think that love is one of the only ways that we can get there. So for people to listen and learn and to become allies and say, you know what? I understand your pain, I can see that it has done this, and I got you, is the way that we move forward.
Stephen:
Very powerful. I love it. I agree. Aside from your music, I know you're very involved and we we're talking about Shine, the foundation that you founded and support that really supports emerging artists. Can you tell us a little bit about that and why it's important?
Julian:
I've been so fortunate to be able to do this and make a career out of it. I know that music is a really tough thing to do. Certainly we lost a really good friend and my pal, Bruce Adamson, who used to be in [inaudible 00:28:47] crossing and his kids play music, and I wanted to do something to honor to their dad and as well, at the same time, do something that would help up and comings get their feet a little bit grounded and help them out financially as well as with encouragement. I feel like my music has done some wonderful things in ways to pave the way for other artists, whether they're Black or indigenous or otherwise, just independent and in love with music. I've been managing in my career independently for over 20 years now, so that's pretty cool.
Stephen:
Amazing. I think the foundation's doing a great job. People, especially young people need inspiration, they need support and I think Shine's doing a great job and thank you for that.
Julian:
Thank you.
Stephen:
Now, if you weren't busy enough, right? Been at Julian's cottage and he has this old school jukebox, which, just I love, and filled with some of my favorite music, including some Motown favorites. But you've taken that concept and you actually have a radio show called Julian Taylor's Jukebox on EMT 106.5 in Toronto. Tell me about that show, why you love doing it and what can people dial in to listen to?
Julian:
Yeah, sure. It happens. It's syndicated all over North America, so actually, we air in Antigua, we air in Seattle, we air in Canada, from coast to coast, and it's on Element FM in Toronto and Ottawa as well. They help flagship the show. We got some great national sponsors in Long McQuaid and Slate Music who are serious supporters of the Canadian industry. The show is a bipoc focused show for the most part, because I wanted to support artists like myself who may not have had the same exposure as I have had, and I certainly didn't have it this way when I was coming up, so I wanted to be a voice and a ally for those looking to get air play and exposure and share their message. And so 70% of the music that I play is bipoc music. And the other is, like you said, it's music from my jukebox, as if you were walking into my home, what would I play? Well, you might hear Another One Beats the Dust by Queen or Fame by David Bowie or...
Stephen:
Yes.
Julian:
You might hear Kool and the Gang, just something cool. Right?
Stephen:
It's great to get the party going, that's for sure.
Julian:
Yeah, it is.
Stephen:
Well, hopefully people dial in. We'll have some more information. In all of my episodes, I always like to end my conversations with asking my guests how they feel about the future and if they're hopeful for what's ahead for future generations. We touched on that a little bit, but you and I have now preteen daughters. What do you see for their futures in the society and do you think it's a better future in terms of disadvantage, advantage? And you see that the incremental change that we're seeing today is going to be good for them?
Julian:
I think that the incremental change that's happening now is going to be very good for them. At least that's my hope. I see that these children that we raise, they're in a different sort of mindset than we were. Whereas when I was growing up, and you can comment on this, I really could feel the difference, the visible difference, the ideology, difference between people that I was hanging around with and myself. So much to the point where I really did do that Harry Potter invisible cloak thing and pretend that I didn't have any of this in me.
I couldn't hide the Black, but I could hide the indigenous side of myself so no one would know. Because you have no idea what it feels like, I mean, some people do. You do probably as well. It's so funny to be in a room where people are being derogatory against one group of people and they have no idea that you are that group of people. It's a very harmful and very hurtful thing, but we were in an age where it was better to shut up, don't say anything. They don't live in that age anymore.
Stephen:
It's like the great John Lewis said, "If you hear something or see something that's not right, you have to do or say something." It's going to be interesting, for example, for my daughter who looks white, what does she fill in on the form?
Julian:
Yeah.
Stephen:
Right? Julian, this has been great. Thank you, my friend. Song Seeds is out now. It's streaming on Spotify, Apple, all your favorite music platforms. His new album, Beyond the Reservoir drops this fall, so keep an ear out for that. You can listen to Julian Taylor's Jukebox radio show weekly on 106.5 FM. And check out his website at juliantaylormusic.com to find out about tour dates and more. And you can always visit our Evergreen website where we'll post all his links for his music. Thank you, Julian Taylor.
Julian:
Thank you. Great to see you, Stephen.
Stephen:
See you soon. Talk to you soon.
Julian:
Okay, brother. Say hi to everyone for me.
Stephen:
I will.
Julian:
All right.
Stephen:
Thanks for listening to Black and White. If you've enjoyed today's conversation, please be sure to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app and take the time to rate our show. Black and White is a production of Evergreen podcast. Special thanks to my producer, audio engineer and sound designer extraordinaire, Noah Fouts and executive producer David Allen Moss. A reminder that my book, Black and White, An Intimate Multicultural Perspective on White Advantage and the Paths to Change is available at your favorite bookstores across the US and Canada, and online at Amazon and Indigo chapters. You can find me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn, or visit my website at stevendorsey.com. I'm Steven Dorsey reminding all of us that we can all be better, do better, so that eventually, we can all live better together.
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