How Trustmark Bank is Combining Human + Digital in Treasury Management

Jim Marous (00:11):

Hi, this is Jim Marous talking to you from the FIsionaries Podcast booth at Co:Lab 2025 in Nashville, Tennessee, so all sponsored by Alkami. When you talk about digital transformation, we often think about the consumer engagement, what's happening on the consumer side of banking but a whole lot's happening on the commercial side, on the small business side.

Jim Marous (00:32):

In fact, I'd have to guess that more digital transformation is happening now on the small business, on the commercial side than anywhere on the consumer side, which has a lot of the basics already in place.

Jim Marous (00:44):

We're going to be talking about how Trustmark Bank is taking on digital transformation within their commercial side, within treasury management, and what that means, what are the goals? How do we communicate with consumers, how do we communicate with commercial clients, and how do we communicate with employees to make it so it's a seamless experience. The future's pretty exciting, but we have a lot of work to do.

Jim Marous (01:09):

Today, we have a special gift. We have Ryan Hill from Trustmark National Bank, and he's going to be talking a little bit about something we haven't talked about very much on FIsionaries, which is treasury management and corporate banking. So, Ryan, thanks for being here today.

Ryan Hill (01:23):

Thank you for having me.

Jim Marous (01:24):

I know it's the last day of Co:Lab, you've got a whole waterfall of stinks drinking from a fire hose the last few days.

Ryan Hill (01:30):

That's right. It's always fantastic, though. You always come to these events and it's a lot of information, but you leave energized and ready to take some-

Jim Marous (01:38):

And some new friends.

Ryan Hill (01:39):

New friends, you make some new friends, some new contacts, and you're just kind of ready to get back home and execute on some of the ideas that you-

Jim Marous (01:48):

It's about doing something after.

Ryan Hill (01:49):

That's right.

Jim Marous (01:50):

So, Ryan, can you talk a little bit about your background? How long you been at Trustmark and what was your journey like before that?

Ryan Hill (01:57):

Sure, sure. So, I've been at Trustmark now for just under three years. I guess it'll be three years in August. I'm a career treasury management banker, started Regions Bank, was there for just about 20 years, all of it, again, in treasury management. I've done just about everything in treasury management that you can possibly do.

Ryan Hill (02:18):

I jokingly said earlier, I had a gap year in the fintech industry working for a startup. It was a rollercoaster, learned a ton during that year and yeah and then Trustmark came calling. It was an opportunity to grow and to step into a leadership position and leverage a lot of the experience that I accumulated over a career, so it’s been fantastic.

Jim Marous (02:43):

So, Ryan, you've been in the commercial banking space for quite some time and the reality is the digitalization and digital transformation of banking has just recently in the span of time touched the commercial side. The consumer side, while extraordinarily difficult because the consumer continually expected more, the digitalization of that, the data, the insights and the product set is significantly more simple than it is on the commercial side and even the small business side.

Jim Marous (03:14):

So, when you're looking at the commercial side and you're looking at really moving into the digital space in commercial, what does that actually mean? What's it meant at Trustmark where they've had, obviously the traditional commercial space before that, but how's that transformation happening?

Ryan Hill (03:31):

Well, that brings a couple of things to mind. So, one, you mentioned the consumer experience and a lot of what you wind up seeing particularly recently on the commercial side is that yeah everybody that works in the commercial side of banking, they're consumers also.

Ryan Hill (03:44):

So, what you've seen over time is this kind of bleeding over of these are experiences that I have as a consumer, and there's an expectation that builds that I should be able to have some of these same experience in my work life or my professional life. So, you definitely see that kind of bleeding into the product set, if you will, from a commercial banking standpoint.

Ryan Hill (04:04):

From a bank, usually, when you hear digital transformation, you're talking about the things that we're all familiar with, you want things to be a little more efficient, things to be faster, obviously there's a security element to that. So, for us, foundationally, that really is a focus on the core banking experience.

Ryan Hill (04:24):

So, we're investing now in our core banking platform, should speed things up a bit, give our clients access to real time balances, real time transactional data and then the extensibility of that kind of digital transformation is how do you let your clients plug into that? There's a traditional online banking platform that we're all familiar with, but how do you extend that?

Ryan Hill (04:49):

Do you build out APIs? Do you do ERP integrations where they can kind of … my wife likes to say live, work and play in the same system, where they can the place that they go day to day to get their job done, you can just make sure that the banking information that they need and the data that they need to make daily business decisions is available in the place that they're familiar with.

Jim Marous (05:12):

You brought up a very good point that in the commercial space, it is, these are people that have expectations on the consumer side in their daily lives because we're all being driven by things well outside of financial services and our expectations rise exponentially on every type of transaction we do. What's interesting about the commercial side though, is there's so many more touch points from the commercial side.

Jim Marous (05:36):

You have a payroll person, you have the regular cash management person, you have treasury management, you have investment service, you have all these different layers that the financial services industry has served in silos in many cases bringing those altogether.

Jim Marous (05:49):

But as you mentioned, bringing the data together, bringing the insights together, and you being involved in the treasury management, realizing that the fastest moving part of banking has been the payments area and they expect that speed to be everywhere.

Jim Marous (06:05):

I know I'm only a small business owner, but I get frustrated, for instance, when my wire transfers come through and they don't have all the information out because I run a subscription business. So, what happens when I get payment and I don't know who it's from, and somebody's calling me going, "Why can't I access my subscription?"

Jim Marous (06:21):

I quickly process the fact, "Well, you've paid, but my bank didn't tell me you paid." And that's unacceptable from the consumer's perspective and from the business perspective and it makes us feel like we don't have the tools available to provide our customers this secondary customer what we need. What are you doing in treasury management to make banking better for your clients?

Ryan Hill (06:45):

Well, that's a very good point. So, much of the thinking, if you will, about payments is just about moving money from point A to point B and it's really so much more than that. It's about the information and the data that goes along with those payments. It's the ability for you to reconcile those payments when they come into your account so you can apply them properly and in a timely manner.

Ryan Hill (07:07):

So, a lot of times when we think of innovation, we think of adopting whatever the latest payment mechanism is. And rightfully so, there's a lot of buzz right now around the faster payments and real time payment network and Fed now and those are fantastic, they're continuing to grow. But a lot of times it can also mean just doubling down on the fundamentals of the basics.

Ryan Hill (07:30):

So, again, it's making sure that transactions are formatted properly so they can carry the right information needed to help someone run their business. A lot of times it is having the security around those payments to make sure that you're not getting unauthorized payments into the mix that obviously can have an impact on your business. It's fraud prevention so-

Jim Marous (07:54):

Which is an ongoing challenge and doesn't get any-

Ryan Hill (07:58):

They don't sleep in.

Jim Marous (07:59):

We move forward but somebody's before, it's usually ahead of us.

Ryan Hill (08:03):

That's right. When we're sleeping, they're still figuring out new ways to do. So, it's really all of those components together. And so, we try to take a consultative approach with our clients where we're learning about their business and trying to, I guess what I would say map a solution, particularly around payments that works for them and their business model.

Ryan Hill (08:23):

And so, if there's an emphasis on being able to reconcile those payments so that they apply properly then there are tools for that. If speed is the priority, then there are tools for that. So, it's a consultative engagement.

Jim Marous (08:38):

It's interesting because you have speed, but you have fraud and risk kind of pulling against that. So, with speed comes the potential for fraud and risk, with seamless transactions comes a possibility that something in the back office isn't really built for the seamless that we try to show. We sometimes fake it until we make it.

Jim Marous (08:58):

We sometimes look like we got all the back office in order, but it's not. When you started Trustmark, obviously there was a mission put in front of you that you were being brought in to achieve. What was that mission?

Ryan Hill (09:10):

It's a very good point. Trustmark has a very reliable, solid set of core treasury management functions or products. And so, I think part of my mission, if you will, when I was brought in, was to enhance those, it wasn't that there were necessary — there were a couple of gaps that we needed to fill as soon as I arrived.

Ryan Hill (09:31):

But primarily it was, "Okay, hey, we've got the core set of products. How can we make them more reliable? How can we make them more secure? How can we make them more efficient? How can we make the ease of use of these products, make them more accessible to clients?" There's an education piece of it. We have a client base that is a significant portion of it are small businesses and middle market.

Ryan Hill (09:55):

And so, you don't have a lot of necessarily customers that are walking around with a bunch of CTP certifications in their shop so a lot of it is consultation, it's educating our clients on how some of the products and services that we offer can help them run their businesses more efficiently.

Ryan Hill (10:13):

So, that was a lot of the mandate, it was, "Hey, we've got the product set, how can we enhance them and make them better? And how can we kind of communicate, if you will, with our clients to let them know how these products and services can benefit them."

Jim Marous (10:28):

That's interesting because we often put the technology in place, we make them better and then somehow between the point of product development, product management, and we miss on the deployment part, we miss on the communication part. We don't tell the customer what we've done on their behalf, and we miss that gap. And many times, we miss the mark on personalizing what part of this we have to tell them about.

Jim Marous (10:57):

Because as a small business owner, I may care a lot about this element and care nothing about this. Again, you brought up the fact that especially in the small business space, basically in the commercial space nowadays, the business world is moving so quickly. I don't have time to manage my banking, it doesn't sound good but the reality is this is more than ever I think we need our financial institutions to support our functionality and make business better and make it so we have a better financial wellness platform.

Jim Marous (11:32):

We talk about that on the consumer side, but it's the same thing we want on the commercial because they count on their financial institution to keep them out of harm's way more than just fraud and risk but even the balancing of the books in some cases.

Ryan Hill (11:44):

Sure, sure. Just overall kind of managing cash flow and liquidity to make sure you have what you need to run your business so that's a huge part of it. I know it's a little bit cliche, but we're very relationship driven and we don't just want to be the provider of your financial services, we want to be a business partner, we want to be a consultative partner.

Ryan Hill (12:05):

So, it's very important for us to have conversations directly with our clients, we have a fantastic relationship manager team, fantastic group of treasury services specialists and the goal is to go in and have conversations with clients when we're not necessarily trying to sell something, we need to learn about your business and then you never know. You have those conversations, and you hear one key scenario that is presenting an issue, and you have that aha moment.

Ryan Hill (12:36):

And so, let's talk about how we can make that process a little easier for you and that in a lot of cases it is just an ongoing cycle, if you will, of a relationship and relationship management. And again, making sure that we're being trusted business partners, not just a provider of services.

Jim Marous (12:56):

So, what's a nice positive thing that's happened the last three years since you've been on board? What are some of the successes you've had in that process?

Ryan Hill (13:07):

Well, it's interesting you mentioned that. A lot of times, because I heard you mentioned or made reference to almost a customized approach particularly when you're talking about the communication and services and sometimes that can be a bad word particularly if you're on the product side of a bank when you hear custom or you hear tailored but a lot of cases, it doesn't necessarily mean doing something technologically different, sometimes it can be process improvement, sometimes it can be education.

Jim Marous (13:38):

Sometimes it can be it's simply offering me something that you see a gap in my product set that's not selling, it's recommending.

Ryan Hill (13:48):

Or sometimes it's something you already have and that's right, there are ways to optimize how you're using that. So, we've definitely had a lot of those scenarios where we were able to interact with a client, be presented with a specific problem.

Ryan Hill (14:02):

We've most recently enhanced our positive pay platform to include pay name verification and made some improvements to the name recognition on the checks to add that as another piece of criteria that you can scan for fraudulent items and had a fantastic response from my clients on that.

Ryan Hill (14:26):

And just the back and forth with a couple of clients on how they could add that as a criteria to the files they were sending us to let us know the checks they were writing and there were a couple of aha moments there where not only did we provide a solution to the client, but the client in that collaboration asked us a couple of questions that had us go back and look at our backend processes.

Ryan Hill (14:51):

And we realized that there were things that we could be doing internally to not just make that process better for that individual client, but for all the clients that were using the services, and we implemented that change, and the product has been even more successful since.

[Music Playing]

Jim Marous (15:10):

So, let's take a short break here and recognize to sponsor this podcast, Alkami Technologies.

Jim Marous (15:20):

Welcome back to the FIsionaries Podcast, sponsored by Alkami Technologies. So, I know that Trustmark doesn't build everything internally, you use partners. So, when your clients are coming to you and saying, I need X, Y, or Z, and you're saying, "Geez, we're going to have to change something," a lot of times that impacts your partnerships and the relationships you have.

Jim Marous (15:43):

How do you select your partners who are going to help you provide services to the marketplace? How do you evaluate if they're the right partners? But then how do you go back to your partners and your solution providers be it Alkami, be it anybody, and say, "We need this to be put in place." How does that process work?

Ryan Hill (16:04):

Well, it's a process, you kind of nailed that. We have fantastic partners, Alkami is definitely one of them and yeah, we tend to want to align with partners that share our passion for customers, share our passion for services. And in a lot of cases, the services that the partners are offering are tailored to our client set, so we kind of look for that, for the alignment and fit in the beginning and then a lot of that is relationship driven.

Ryan Hill (16:35):

So, it's not just having relationships with your clients, it's having relationships with your technology vendors, we're fortunate that we have, again, great, great partners and great relationships with those. And so just through the course of random interaction or plan interaction you can have a conversation and let them know that there's a need there.

Ryan Hill (16:55):

Most cases, there's a process for that. If you have something in particular that you're asking, it doesn't hurt sometimes to talk to other peers that may have a similar concern and say, "Hey, this isn't just us. This is something that some of your other customers may also benefit from."

Ryan Hill (17:15):

And then there's just a dialogue about how we can prioritize it and communication's just key in that scenario because you have to manage expectations during that process. A lot of times, a client will make a request like that and it can be a fantastic, great idea, it's not something you can flip a switch and make happen within a week.

Jim Marous (17:33):

You got to make sure it's not just one client doing A, you got prioritize.

Ryan Hill (17:37):

That's right. And there's a resource commitment, there's a developmental roadmap that's typically in place, you have to be very pragmatic about how you prioritize these. So yeah, you have to communicate clearly and say, "We hear you, we understand this is a need, we're working on it." You manage those expectations and yeah, we're pretty good about having partners that are responsive to those needs when we make them known.

Jim Marous (18:00):

It's interesting because more than ever we rely on these solution providers to not only do well on our behalf as a finance institution but do well with the others that you have in that assortment of players. I mean, you look at 20 years back in your career, we used to get all our stuff from pretty much one provider, and we got what they gave us, very much like the consumers expecting now.

Jim Marous (18:24):

We have a lot more interaction now, you really referenced it really well that now we have this interaction where not only are our suppliers and our providers providing updated services to give us the ability to build these modern solutions but even more so you're looking for partners that can build your resilience and can move with you with your recommendation.

Jim Marous (18:46):

We're seeing this more and more that financial institutions are now coming to the table going, "I need this, this, this,” word being for the providers are so far ahead of where the financial institutions were because you were picking them based on how far ahead they were. But now you got to say, "I got to keep this mother rolling," because this is important from this standpoint.

Ryan Hill (19:11):

It's almost a reflection of our relationship with our clients, of course. So, in best case scenario because you're in continuous dialogue with your partners, just like we want to be in continuous dialogue with our clients, you're aware of their needs and what their future needs may be in some cases before they are and in a lot of cases, our relationships with our vendor partners works very similarly.

Ryan Hill (19:34):

They're already working on things in anticipation that Trustmark is going to come and ask for this within the next several months. And so, it's a great feeling, I think, on both sides of that relationship when we can come to the partner and say, "Hey, we're looking for this integration, or we're looking for this enhancement," and they're able to say, "Hey, we're already working on it."

Ryan Hill (19:54):

And I think it bodes well for them, it kind of validates their process that they're going down the right path from a developmental standpoint and it bodes well for us that we have a partner or relationship that is being proactive and they're listening.

Ryan Hill (20:12):

And there may have been an interaction before then where they picked up on a cue that this was something that was going to be on our, "Hey, we got to have this list ahead of time," and it wasn't a formal request and it led to some development that we're all going to benefit from in the future.

Jim Marous (20:26):

So, it's interesting, we take it for granted that you are obviously a change agent. You're making change happen on a continuous space which it's a key element in leadership to be able to accept that change and actually embrace it and enjoy that journey.

Jim Marous (20:43):

However, your output touches a whole lot of people internally, they have to have that same attitude and not everybody does. You have a calling officer that's had a successful 40-year career, they aren't always as excited about the chains that we're bringing down line, even if it's better for them, and we can sell the case, the reality is they have to actually believe it to be able to sell it and to be able to deploy it to their clients.

Jim Marous (21:12):

How do you take care of that at Trustmark? Because you have obviously a very large team in each category, not only how do you communicate it to the people that are directly impacted by what you're developing, but those other people that touch other parts of that commercial relationship that may not be as familiar with the treasury management function?

Ryan Hill (21:32):

That's a very good question. The internal outreach when it comes to product development and the services that we're offering is just as important, if you will, as the external outreach to clients. So, it's part of the gig, so to speak to kind of be the evangelist, if you will, for our line of business, to help our bankers, for example help them understand how treasury management services can secure long-term relationships, how treasury management services can help grow deposits.

Ryan Hill (22:04):

And I think as a business unit just take on that responsibility. So, we try to get out in the markets, we have a footprint that is primarily in the southeast and goes as far east as kind of the Florida panhandle and we take the time to visit those markets and kind of spread the gospel, if you will on treasury management.

Ryan Hill (22:25):

We've just launched some internal kind of internet pages that highlight our line of business that when there's product news or product development, sometimes it's industry news, we're making a new point to add that to our site so that it kind of gets into the information flow of the bank at large.

Ryan Hill (22:45):

And then when you're interacting with your cross functional partners, so whether that's during a project meeting or sometimes it's a support issue where someone needs help I personally, and I think a lot of our team business as well, you kind of take the opportunity to connect the dots. So, you're asking about this one particular thing but let me explain to you why the thing you're doing right now is being impacted by something we're doing.

Ryan Hill (23:13):

And there's not a better feeling for me personally, when you can just see the light bulb go off and someone says, "Oh, like, I do this every day." I may be in a branch, and I do this every day. And I knew customer comes in to cash a check, and I'm asked to do step one, two, and three but I didn't know that that was part of a larger positive pay service and a significant part of our fraud prevention strategy and now they understand the why behind what they're doing.

Jim Marous (23:38):

And they can talk to their clients about that. And it's interesting because I'm sure when you go out in the field, it's not just the answers and the things we tell them we're doing, it's the questions we're asking that builds that communication trust.

Jim Marous (23:50):

And especially on the commercial side of banking, these people are continually seeing the news, seeing what's happened in the industry and seeing what the digitalization of banking could mean to them and it's not all good news from what they think they're reading.

Jim Marous (24:07):

And I think part of the communication process that we see across the financial service industry is to make these people realize that the digital tools we're providing are going to enhance your capabilities, not replace your capabilities unless you stand still.

Jim Marous (24:24):

Because if you don't come along for this ride, it will not be threatening unless you make it that way because you just are holding tight to the old days. And I think everybody has that fear factor. We look at payments, if we look at credit adjudication, we look at every part of financial services.

Jim Marous (24:44):

What we're looking to do, and we are looking to do is make it efficient, make it more automated, these type of things but it doesn't take away the human element of what's needed. However, it changes how that's presented, and I think it's key and I know that Trustmark is doing it, that you're doing it, and that was part of your mission.

Jim Marous (25:02):

And if you look again in your career of 20 years, it used to be it's my way or the highway. Well, that's not exactly the way it's going to go, and we've never seen banking evolve and change so rapidly in our lives. But I can tell in your passion, you're excited about that change. It's not something that threatens you; it's something that excites you.

Jim Marous (25:28):

That being said, as you look forward, what excites you about the next one to three years in the banking world and part of the banking world you touch but even beyond that, what excites you about the industry right now?

Ryan Hill (25:40):

It's interesting you touch on the human element there. Of course, you can't go anywhere now without hearing AI, AI everything and yeah, in a lot of ways it can be a threatening concept. I tend to liken it as a new toolbox with a new set of tools in it. Like the tools aren't going to jump out of the toolbox and start building something without somebody behind them.

Ryan Hill (26:04):

So, like any good tool, the point of the tool is to make what you're needing to do with the tool more effective, make you more effective at building whatever you're trying to build, make you more efficient at building whatever you're trying to build, so AI, of course, is a huge deal.

Ryan Hill (26:22):

It is looking at ways both internally and externally that you can use it to analyze data and to make some of the stuff that we're doing today just more effective and more efficient. So, I'm very interested in seeing how banks adopt it just from talking to colleagues here at the conference, just about everybody has kind of dipped their toe in the water.

Jim Marous (26:45):

We're doing it really well on the efficiency side, on the operation side and the automation side and even on the fraud and risk side which is where AI really had its first footing over a decade ago. But the reality is that it's that personalization, it's the anticipatory banking that was talked about.

Jim Marous (27:03):

That you go, "Man, that's the holy grail right here." But how do we set up so we can actually do what's there? It's not going to be something we flip and switch and go, "Okay, now we got AI." No, we need a whole lot of fundamental things to be done in a way that prepares us for that future.

Ryan Hill (27:20):

Well, that's where again, in talking to a lot of colleagues here, you hear a lot of investment in the core banking platforms to ready that's just a foundational element of any bank. And in order to make tools like AI effective, you've got to be able to get data that the AI can use to kind of help whether it's payment optimization or again, it's to your point, next best service or being predictive about what a client is going to need. That's all going to be data based.

Ryan Hill (27:51):

And a lot of folks that we're using cores that may older or out of date don't necessarily have easy access to that banking data and it's their data, it's in their shop. But a lot of the digitization you were referencing is about modernizing that core and making that information available both internally and across the board.

Jim Marous (28:12):

Internally across the board where if you're calling officers have the information that they can now access and that your organization feels comfortable in sharing that because that can be a roadblock or a barrier but if you do that, then you've given them everything they need.

Jim Marous (28:27):

I mean, the amount that could be shared nowadays as a teller line, as a calling officer, as a commercial side within your department where we don't have to ask IT for can you give me a green line report, I'm dating myself here, but a green line report of how this happens, and you get it instantaneously. And the client can see the impact of that instantaneously, pretty doggone exciting.

Ryan Hill (28:51):

And then to your point, again, the human element is still there. So, maybe you made that particular calling officer's job for preparing for that meeting with the client easier, but it's still going to take an understanding of the information that was created for them, the deployment of that and then it's still going to be based at the end of the day on a relationship that you build with a client where there's a trust component of that relationship.

Ryan Hill (29:19):

And the information gathering, if you will, the analyzing, the data on the front end it's just helping you be more effectively prepared for that interaction. But there's not going to be any substitute for data interaction that you have with the client.

Jim Marous (29:30):

Well, it's interesting because you also have the capability across the organization, across any bank to do your own homework. Where it used to be you'd have quarterly report information on what's happening at your client or maybe what's happening with their competitors or whatever else.

Jim Marous (29:49):

You can now get up in the morning, you can ask ChatGPT, "Tell me all about this client of mine, talk about their competitors and tell me what's happening in that space." And as a calling officer or as a teller, as a branch manager, you're going to be probably ahead of what that client knows unless they're doing the same thing.

Ryan Hill (30:10):

I was just about to say that.

Jim Marous (30:12):

And then that means you have to think higher and better, but the tools are there. And it's exciting as a person, as excited as a banker and as exciting as a financial institution that we can now have superstars built by what they're building on their own, as well as what their financial institutions provide them, their employer.

Ryan Hill (30:33):

I've recently actually had that experience the other way where you can use these tools to kind of give yourself a quick download, if you will on a topic that you're going to discuss with a client. I've had that happen with a client did the exact opposite. They used the tools-

Jim Marous (30:49):

They knew what to talk to you about.

Ryan Hill (30:51):

But that's exciting to me because honestly at that point, if you're not having to use some of that time to just educate a client on this is what this is or this is how it works, now you can really get to the more meaningful discussion that this is how this can help you.

Ryan Hill (31:05):

This is how this can enhance your business, this is how it can make you more secure, this is how you can make your operations reliable and that's where the human element comes in, is those dialogues. I don't think we've quite gotten to the point yet where AI can kind of take on that piece of the equation but as far as the preparation on what they-

Jim Marous (31:26):

Certainly, not yet from the standpoint of what financial institutions are going to be comfortable doing.

Ryan Hill (31:30):

That's fair, fair to say.

Jim Marous (31:32):

That risk avoidance thing still gets in the way every once in a while.

Ryan Hill (31:35):

That's right. That's right. So, the people are still going to be there.

Jim Marous (31:37):

Ryan, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate meeting you and getting to know more about what Trustmark is doing and what you're doing at Trustmark with treasury management.

Ryan Hill (31:45):

Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Jim Marous (31:47):

This has been a production of Evergreen Podcasts. A special thanks to my senior producer, Leah Haslage and my audio and video crew, Chris Fafalios and Will Pritts, thank you so much for being able to put all this on a traveling basis and I'm really excited about what's happening in banking and how small institutions are actually punching above their weight.