Catching a wave with Lucy Clarke

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Adam Sockel:

You are listening to Passions and Prologues, a literary podcast where each week, I interview an author about a thing they love and how it inspires their work. I'm your host, Adam Sockel, and today's guest is Lucy Clarke, international bestseller of the latest book, The Hike.

She has written several bestselling books that are known as destination thrillers, including One of the Girls, The Castaways, You Let Me In, and several others. Her books are page turning, edge of your seat thrillers that you are going to want to read in one single setting. And The Hike is no different.

It tells the story of four women who go on a holiday to you guessed it, take a hike in a place they've never been. And what ends up happening is they realize they are not the only ones on the mountain.

And I don't want to give too much more away, but again, clear your schedule if you get this book because you are not going to want to put it down.

Our discussion today, is all about Lucy's passion for surfing and how she discovered it, what it does for her and her personal life, and her mental health, and how it kind of helps kind of refresh her brain for when she gets back to the writing process.

And then we also transitioned and dovetailed just a little bit into a conversation about her destination thrillers and what that means for her as an author. All these different places that she's gone and really done the work and seen all the little nooks and crannies in the atmosphere that really fleshes out a world and makes it real for the readers.

It's a really, really great conversation with an extremely talented and wonderful person. I think you're very much going to love this conversation, and I know you're going to love The Hike.

When you get done with this book, in most likely one sitting, if you're looking for another book that is somewhat similar, I really, really loved Near the Bone by Christina Henry. This came out a few years ago at this point.

It's a little more horror than Lucy Clarke's novels, but it is that time of year. We are in September now, so it is the spooky season. Near the Bone tells the story of a woman who is trapped on a mountain as she's trying to survive more than one monster.

It's very, very scary. It is very, very heart racing again. But I really, really love Christina Henry's writing. I have just about everything that she has written, and so, Near the Bone is a really, really good kind of pairing novel with Lucy Clarke's The Hike.

If you ever want to get ahold of me, you can find me at [email protected]. You can also find me at PassionsandPrologues on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube. I'm posting clips there. If you want to see some videos of each of these episodes, you can find me on YouTube over there.

And then just really quickly, if you missed last week's episode, you're going to want to go back and check that out with Angie Kim, who is the current Good Morning America Book Club pick author as well. So, really good stuff there.

So, in case you missed that episode from Labor Day or whatever reason, go back and check that out, I think you're really going to love it.

Okay. I'm not going to keep you any longer. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Lucy Clarke, author of The Hike on Passions and Prologues.

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Okay, Lucy, what is something you are super passionate about that we're going to be discussing today?

Lucy Clarke:

It's going to be surfing for me.

Adam Sockel:

Love it. Okay. So, let's start at the beginning. When did you first kind of discover this passion for surfing? Was it when you were really small, or was it a little bit later in life?

Lucy Clarke:

It's been much later, and I think that may be why there's so much passion for it. I live in the UK on the south coast of England, and lots of my friends surf and my husband is a professional winds surfer. My brother surfs, loads of people around me surf.

And I think as a sort of teen, it was something I wanted to try, but back then there weren't that many women surfers. And I don't know, I just didn't do it.

And then I am now, 42. I had children. I've got the six and eight-year-old, once I kind of came out the other side of that, I was just really ready to do something just for me. And I just got fit and strong enough to learn to surf and oh my goodness, I absolutely love it.

I think it's wonderful to learn something a little bit later on because there's zero pressure. I'm not going to be entering competitions. I'm just doing it for sheer pleasure and joy. And there's no need to look good in my wetsuit. I'm just like out there in windy, whatever conditions I'll be out there.

And it's just, I love it. I think it's a pointless thing, like most things in life are. Like if you really drill it down, why am I spending so much time doing this? There's no purpose to it other than just pleasure and being out there in nature.

So, that is my absolute favorite thing. I would put it above almost everything.

Adam Sockel:

No, I love it. And I know what you mean about learning something later in life. So, growing up and when I was at university, I was a baseball player and I still love baseball today, but after I graduated, I became a runner.

And since then, you kind of mentioned like all the surrounding people in your life being connected to surfing. Same thing with my family and running. Like my brother is currently on day like over a thousand of running in a row outside at least.

My dad is 73. He just ran a half marathon again this past year. Like one of those families.

And so, it was the same thing. It was when I graduated from college, I didn't know what to … I was like, “I need something to keep myself active.”

But like you said, I run races, but I don't really care where I finish. It's all about just like the joy of it and-

Lucy Clarke:

The challenge and yeah, just having to do that is different from your everyday life. Right?

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. So, approaching it when you are an adult, how do you go about … because surfing is ideally something I am wholly unfamiliar. I mean, I'm familiar with it in the sense that I know what surfing is, but I have never really done it myself.

So, how do you go about learning to surf as an adult? What was the process like?

Lucy Clarke:

Yeah. I mean, for me, because friends and family surf, I didn't go and do a course or anything. I just got a really old board, like a kind of we call them a foamy board, so like a soft top. And I already had a wetsuit because I do other water sports.

And I think the hardest thing was learning to read the forecast. So, knowing when there was swell coming, because where we live, it's not a regular — we're not California or Hawaii where you get pretty much waves every day.

But here, you need to read the forecast and know when the swells coming, and be in the right place at the right time. So, that was hard. And I'd always be like WhatsApping my brother, or like saying like, “Oh, when are you surfing? Tell me, tell me.”

And then once I learn to read the forecast, then I'm just good to go and I'll just rock up at the beach with my board in my wetsuit. And just flail around a bit, learn how to paddle, get stronger, wipe out all the time. All of those things.

And I think the joy is just, I had a very small goal, which was to just be able to trim away, which is just to kind of like stand up on the way, but go along the way face rather than kind of riding it straight into shore. That was my goal. I said, “I want to do that by the time I'm 40, trim away.” And so, I did that.

And then you kind of naturally want to progress because it's just so much fun. And like, “I want to ride bigger waves and faster waves and like have more style and grace when I do it.”

So, yeah, it's been wonderful. And I've since been, we went to Morocco earlier this year actually for book research because I'm setting my next book there. But we went on purpose to a place where it's like kind of a surfing base.

So, yeah, really enjoying it, trying to fit as much in as I can around my writing. And I think it gives you like fantastic contrast to being at the desk and headspace and that kind of like you have to be so in the moment when you are paddling for a wave.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. No, I love that so much because I know to an extent exactly what you mean. So, for me, for running, I have a day job that is at a desk. I'm an aspiring writer, so it's either like I'm at my desk doing my day job or I'm working on a manuscript and it's like it's a lot of sitting and being connected.

And so, I think that for me, running, it's that ability to basically, completely disconnect and just go and be out.

And was that something that kind of like you said that sort of balance between writing and being able to sort of move your body and be out amongst the world and focus. Did you feel that right away?

Because I'll fully admit, from a running standpoint, I did not feel that like quote unquote “runner's high” for a while. So, for you, did you notice like, “Oh my God, this is something,” right away or was it something that was sort of learned?

Lucy Clarke:

I think I've always known about myself that I need that balance of like physical movement and desks. I'm kind of like quite an outdoorsy person. So, before I was surfing, I would be running, or hiking, or paddleboarding, or doing something.

And even if it's just going for a walk, because I think if you're lucky enough to be able to write for a full day, and I know most people are squeezing it around other jobs. And I did all of that as well for years.

But right now, in my career, I'm able to write. Oh, I have kids. So, I write while they're at school. And it if you've got eight hours, that's too long to just be sat at a desk. For me and my personality type, like that's no good. So, I will always go outside and do something.

And surfing, you can't plan in because it's just when there're waves. So, I just make sure like even if it's just doing a bit of yoga in the garden or there's always something that I'll do every day to kind of break up the stillness. Which is good, it helps.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. I remember I've had so many authors basically tell me like full-time authors talking about how their quote unquote “day job” of being a writer is really like doing all the things around writing and like avoiding like …

Lee Child told me, he is like, “If it's an eight-hour writing day, I probably write for 90 minutes. And the rest of it is just thinking about or avoiding writing.” I was like, “Yeah.”

Lucy Clarke:

Absolutely. I would say like this last year, 70% of my working hours are not writing. It is like doing other stuff to do the scripts, or publicity, or admin, or Zoom meetings, or cover design, or whatever it is. Just so much is not writing, and I think getting that balance can be hard.

I had a month in the summer in July where I just kind of cleared my desk of extra stuff and I think it helped everyone goes on holiday, so it's quite quiet. And I wasn't getting a thousand emails a day and it was so nice. I was like, “Oh my gosh, I can actually like write, write, write without all the other stuff going on.”

But then you kind of get to the end of that period. And actually, for me, I think I really like a balance of doing a good chunk of writing every day. Some of the kind of like business side of being an author and then the outdoor stuff too.

And if like a perfect day might be like four hours writing, two hours of other author businessy stuff, and then like an hour outdoors, and an hour eating good food. Like that's a perfect day.

Adam Sockel:

That's a full day. That's a great day right there.

Speaking of like the being outdoors and the surfing aspect and how it sort of connects to the actual business side of being an author, I'm curious for you, like I said, running for me is very much clearing my head, but it also is ideas percolate all the time.

So, does the getting outside and surfing and doing those things, do you think there is any sort of connection between that and the writing you're doing? Or is it like entirely a time for you to kind of clear your brain and not think about things?

Lucy Clarke:

With surfing, it's definitely a clear my brain and not think. I think because I'm such a learner still with it, there's so much I'm having to kind of think about.

And when you're in the sea, you're kind of contending with all the elements and trying to like make sure you're in the right place, the right time. And there's no head space for other thought.

And that's why I like it because I get in the sea and I don't think about anything else until I come back out.

But if I was to go for a run or a walk, it would actually leave me quite open to just mulling. And I really like that too. That's like a different thing. If I'm in the middle of a plot tangle, I would love to go for a walk or a run and just let things percolate.

And they don't always come to a satisfying conclusion just by doing it. But quite often you get a good, just a little something, a nugget unlocks while you're out.

Adam Sockel:

You brought up an interesting point that I wanted to ask you about. I love asking like thriller mystery writers about this concept of …

Because anytime, and you would know this even more than me, but like anytime someone reads a thriller or a mystery, like I feel like (and this frustrates me as a reader, so I'm sure it frustrates you as an author) if people don't love the twists, they say that, “Well, that wasn't a good book.”

Which I hate, because in my mind I'm like, “If I enjoyed the process of reading the whole story, that makes it a good book.”

But I'm curious, from your writing standpoint, how you approach getting yourself into a seemingly unsolvable aspect of a story and then solving it like your latest book, The Hike, which we'll get into in just a moment.

Like I assume it's a lot about putting people in a specific place that they can get away from.

But like I guess this is like a long-winded way of asking if you're a plotter or a pantser when it comes to the parts of a book that keep people wanting to turn the page.

Lucy Clarke:

Yeah, I think I sort of fall between the stools of being a plotter and a pantser. The Hike is my eighth novel and I don't have a set process. I think I've sort of tried different things with every book and each book just opens me up to the process in a different way.

When I'm writing, like with The Hike for example, I didn't know what the main twists would be. I didn't know who was going to die when I started. It was very much the concept was set for women out on a trail in the wilderness and see what happens to them.

And that's kind of what I did. I got to know my women as four key protagonists who have been friends for life and they go on holiday each year together and they taking turns to choose where they'll go.

And this one year, it's Liz's turn, she's kind of a bit more of a straight liner than the other characters. She's a GP, she has two young children, a marriage that's failing. And she just is thirsting for something a bit different.

And she decides, “I don't want to sit by a pool and drink cocktails. I need to do something. I need to get out there. I need to kind of like push myself out my comfort zone.” And she said to her mates, “Guys, this is what I want to do this year.”

And they are just like, “Oh my God, we're meant to be on a holiday. You want me to hike up a mountain for four days with a tent on my back? This sounds awful.” But because they are her old friends, they show up for her and they do it.

So, that's kind of what I had to start with, with the novel. It was like it's going to be Norway, and it's four women, and it's a hike and everything else just unfolds in the writing.

And I tend to have to do a lot of drafts because it might be my first draft, which happened with The Hike. I got to a kind of conclusion that just didn't work at all. I kind of built up all this tension and didn't know where to take it.

And so, then you had to kind of like go back. The clues are always in what you've written. So, I'd like go back and unpeel a few more layers and think, “Oh, okay, so this story isn't about that. This is the tension strand I need to pull on more strongly.” And that's kind of how I find my way through the story and the structure.

Adam Sockel:

That's so interesting because I'm always fascinated because obviously you as an author have no way of knowing, like you said, what piece of tension is going to stick with readers.

But is it at this point, like you said, having with this being your eighth novel, have you kind of learned to trust your gut with those types of things? Or is it sort of like okay, if this is like making your heart race, it's going to make a reader's heart race? Is that sort of on track?

Lucy Clarke:

Yeah. I think where I trust my gut now, is that when I come to a problem in a manuscript and I know it's not working and I don’t know how to fix it. I think now, I don't panic about it. I'm just like, “This is my job.”

Like it's so frustrating because I want to sit at my desk for how many hours and write this many words. And it doesn't work like that. Some days you're kind of going backwards and unpicking. And that can be really frustrating those days.

But I think with The Hike, my experiences of writing, I'm writing destination thrillers is that I know that I want to set up a story where there's lots of different strands of tension.

So, in The Hike you've got the kind of natural tension of the women and the friendships and that kind of implosion of emotions that might happen out on a trail. So, that's one strand.

And then you've got another strand of the people that they meet when they first arrive in Norway and they sleep in a lodge the first night and they have this kind of big night.

And they kind of put the cat amongst the pigeons because they're these four like quite young women in the middle of a lodge with hikers and outdoorsy people, and what kind of impression do they leave or what follows them out on the trail?

And then you've got the kind of tension strand from the landscape itself, which kind of promotes a really natural tension anyway because you're out in the wilderness and there is no cell phone coverage, and the weather is changeable. Like they're just very real things.

So, as an author, I'm looking at these different strands of tensions and thinking, “Which one do I want to pull on?” I want the reader to feel very much like, “Ooh, there's potential threat coming at all angles. Like what do I need to keep my eye on? Where's the real threat?” And that's kind of what I play with.

So, I suppose as I've kind of progressed through my career, I'm perhaps a bit more confident at playing with the different tensions and not needing to know at the beginning which one will be the real problem. I let that develop.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. So, you mentioned, and I love on your website where it basically says like, “When you're not on a research trip, is the real reason you're not …” Like I love like the fact that you mentioned like these research trips are so important, of course, writing destination thrillers.

But with that in mind, and you mentioned (0:19:52) Monica before this one being set in Norway and all the different places you've set your stories in the Philippines and these different places.

For you, does a story come out of a location initially, or is it, like you mentioned there's so many different like potential threads and storylines with the hike, and is it this idea at its core of these women in their like friendships?

Or I guess for you, where did the initial idea come from? Was it location, or character driven, or sort of like that moment of action?

Lucy Clarke:

I think I always start with place in all of my novels. So, I feel like for me as a writer, I want to be inhabiting a world that I love for the next year, year and a half, that I'm writing the novel. So, place always comes first.

I love writing chewy, female dynamics because it's what I'm interested in. So, I'm normally putting some kind of women, whether it's sisters, friends, it can be a couple, it could be anyone, a solo traveler, someone in a situation, in a place that I'm interested in.

And they might do something that I love, like hiking. In the new book in Morocco, it's going to be surfing. Like I try and bring in passions of mine or good people that I know. My husband spear fishes, so in a single breath, there’s a whole element of that.

And yeah, just writing things that I'm interested in because then it makes it fun for me. And I suppose that's just … I have a note (you can't see it) on my notice board and it says, “Write the type of book I want to read.”

And it was my advice to myself when I started, before I was published, just to literally write the soft book that I would enjoy reading and you're hoping that there will be other readers that share your taste. And that's kind of it, really, the focus.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. No, I love that actually. The manuscript that I'm like querying and then editing down now, it was the same thing. Like I basically put a tweet on the world. I was like, “I wish there were more books about X thing.”

And like one of my author friends like screenshotted it and texted me and they're like, “So write it.” And I was like, “Oh my God.” It was like a light bulb went off. Yeah, I love that.

And I have to imagine, especially with it being … because I've talked to so many authors who say like before you get published, it's your dream to get published. And then if you do the work and you're fortunate and like there's a lot of things that come together. Like if you get published and then it becomes your career. Now, it's your career.

But it's so interesting because writing and storytelling is this medium where like, yes, it is the thing that you do that quote unquote “employs you.” But if it just becomes like another job and you lose the interest, people are going to be able to notice that.

So, I love what you said about still like finding things that are passionate for you because that bleeds through in the work. Yeah, I can't imagine like deciding like, “Okay, I'm going to write another book.” Like these people who will write like 40 books in a series and like it's always stans me with your book.

Lucy Clarke:

That's work, that's work. And I want writing to always be a passion. And I think as soon as it stops becoming that, then I'm out. Because it's a really hard job. If there’s not passion in it, I don’t know, there would be no pleasure.

And that's not to say that every day at my desk is joyful, because there's really hard stretches of course when you're struggling with a book. But I think, yeah, that to me, I think the way to keep that passion there is to write about things that I love in places that I love.

And I also, try and make my work environment a real pleasure as well. So, right now, I'm at home in my home office. I do all of my kind of business side of writing here, but I actually do most of my writing in a beach hut, which is like a 10-minute cycle from our house.

And there's no Wi-Fi, and it's right on the sand, and it's like 20 paces to the sea, and it's remote and cut off. And that's a really lovely place to write. And it makes when I've got a writing section of my day, I'm like, “Yes, I'm going to go and write in the beach hut.” And it becomes a pleasure.

And I think when you have a smaller amount of time to write rather than a whole eight-hour day, it's great. Because I remember reading something Elizabeth Gilbert said, and it was about having an affair with your writing. Like that's how you should treat it.

It's like that moment you sneak into a corridor with a stolen like 15 minutes or whatever, and that passion is there when you are like, “I've had a really busy day doing X, Y, and Z of other stuff, and in meetings or whatever. And now, I've got like two hours, I'm just going to write.” And that keeps it exciting.

Adam Sockel:

So, speaking of that excitement, what was the most exciting part about writing The Hike? Like was it, like you said, kind of finding these different levers to pool and places to focus attention on.

Was it discovering a new place in Norway to put the story? I guess like what excited you most about writing the most recent book?

Lucy Clarke:

I think the research trip was absolutely the best part. I went off for five days with my husband and we hiked with just all our gear on our back. And when we were out on the trails, we didn't see a single person for five days. It was just deeply remote. We were out season as well.

And you'd come across in Norway, these cabins, which I write about in the novel called DNT cabins. And they are free … well, they're not free. You could just pay like a very small amount to stay in them. And it's whoever turns up can stay.

They originally built so that people who are out in snowy, frigid conditions have a safe harbor, really.

And so, yeah, they're dotted around. They're all really just beautiful timber, simple structures with a wood stove.

And yeah, you might be hiking all day and you've seen this like DNT cabin marked on a map, and you think, “Is there going to be one? Like is there though, because I see nothing except like mountain peaks or whatever it is.”

And we took tents with us because we just were like, “What if we don't find one and we're stuck? It's dangerous. You kind of need to.” Like I'd be very familiar with the territory or I take precautions. So, we carry tents.

But lo and behold, the DNT cabins are there in the most insane places and the door is left unlocked. So, you get to this fairy tale wooden cabin, you've hiked all day, you're hungry, you're probably wet and cold.

And we would see this like beautiful little wooden structure set on a mountain plateau. And it's kind of like held into the ground on just like two suspension wise because it's so precarious, the position.

And you kind of go to the front door and firstly, you're thinking, “Is it really going to be unlocked? Like that's what I read in my research, but is it going to be unlocked?”

And then when you push the door open and the next thought is, “Oh my God, who's going to be in here because we're in the middle of nowhere, and that's terrifying.”

And you get in … and when we were there, there was no one else in these cabins. And you light the fire and you start making your noodles on the stove. And then the light goes, and then my next thought is, “Who's going to arrive in the middle of the night?” So, they've got all of these feelings.

And I think being there and having that experience really brought to life the setting for me and helped me into my character's head space and their emotional territory that they would feel when I'm putting them out there in this hike.

Adam Sockel:

Was this a place that you had been to, like had you been to Norway before?

Lucy Clarke:

Yeah.

Adam Sockel:

Okay. I was just imagining like going out on this hike with someone else, and like even like having that experience, just being like, “Okay, we've got a map. And in theory there are cabins out there.”

Lucy Clarke:

Yeah. I mean, honestly, that's as basic as it was. We went, my husband's a really good travel companion. He's very easygoing. He carries more share of his luggage, which is always good. And yeah, he was fine.

There was no plan. Like when we set out, I bought a just like a really good hiking map. Well, it's just a map. It wasn't even a hiking map. It was a really good, like graphical map. And we just were like, “Oh …”

When we arrived in Norway, we didn't even know where we were going go because we wanted to see like where … I had a couple of ideas, but we wanted to see what the weather was doing.

And so, we looked at the forecast and we're like, “Okay, we're actually just going to be driving in this part of Norway, so let's do a four hour drive, not the two hour drive and get up to here.”

And then yeah, we just set off. And it was great. It was just a real adventure and like terrifying at times as well, because you are out in the middle of nowhere and no one knows where you are.

And I'm thinking we are making all the mistakes that someone would make in a film. Like we've told no one, we have no cell phone coverage. Like we haven't even packed enough food. Like what kind of all the basic things that suddenly you're just like, “Oh, this is why people make mistakes.” Yeah, they're doing it.

Adam Sockel:

I was just going to say, like while reading the book, like I was struck, I was like, “Oh my God, this feels so authentic.” And now, I know why, because genuinely, you put yourself in that situation.

Lucy Clarke:

That's it, yeah. I do the research. I do. And actually, another book that … I love the research, it's probably my other favorite in terms of the research element was The Blue, which is my third novel, and that is set on a yacht in the Philippines.

And I was paid a really tiny advance for the book back then. And I basically spent it all going out to the Philippines for six weeks. And I'd never been there, I'd never sailed a yacht.

And we met up with a blogger that had been following, who blogged from this yacht that her and her husband sailed on around the Philippines. And I'd been asking her loads of research questions, and then I said, “Look, I'm coming out. Can we meet for a drink?” And she said, “Sure.”

And we met for a drink one evening on this bar where it had stilts and it was over the water. And her and her husband, an Australian couple that mowed then tendered to the bar.

And we had a lovely chat and she said, “Look, to be honest, the best way for you to experience sailing in the Philippines is just to come on board and do it.”

Adam Sockel:

Sail in the Philippines. Yeah.

Lucy Clarke:

And I was looking at my husband, like, “Do we trust them? Are we going to be in like the plot of one of my books right now? Two young travelers go aboard the yacht unseen again.”

But we thought, “Yeah, they seem nice, let's do it.”

So, we took the tender out to their yacht, and we spent the next week sleeping on the deck of their boat beneath the mosquito net and just sailing around these incredible remote bays and islands.

And that was a really wonderful special experience I would never have had, had it not been for writing. And it just, again, made the book completely come to life.

So, the research is a pleasure, but it is also, for me, it feels like a very essential part of the writing process.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. It's very, very necessary. And wow, I feel like I could ask you questions about your various research trips forever ever, but you've been extremely gracious. I have one more question for you.

I always have the author like kind of leave our conversation with just a recommendation of any kind. It can be a book, it can be a TV show. I've had people say like, “Go for walks more often.” But just something you would like to recommend that people do or know about a little bit more than they may know right now.

Lucy Clarke:

I feel like, I mean, if I sort of just recommend a book that I love, one of my favorite book of the year so far is Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow. And I've just finished reading it.

It is about gaming, which is not something that I do or have any experience of. But more than that, it's about friendship and the creative process.

And I just loved, loved, loved this book. It's incredibly compelling. The characters are beautiful. It just really opened my eyes to the creative process in a very different art form. And I had perhaps been a little bit snobbish about gaming and just thinking like, “Oh, guns, and I don't want my children doing it,” and all of that stuff.

But actually, to learn about the process of it was fascinating. And it really does seem like a true art form. So, I would recommend Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow.

Adam Sockel:

I wholeheartedly agree with that. It’s such a good book. Yeah.

So, Lucy, The Hike is so wonderful. People are absolutely going to love it. I can't thank you enough. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Lucy Clarke:

Oh, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[Music Playing]

Adam Sockel:

Passions and Prologues is proud to be an Evergreen podcast and was created by Adam Sockel. It was produced by Adam Sockel and Sean Rule-Hoffman.

And if you are interested in this podcast and any other Evergreen podcast, you can go to evergreenpodcasts.com to discover all the different stories we have to tell.