Finding comfort with ghosts with Candi Sary

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Adam Sockel:

You are listening to Passions and Prologues, a literary podcast, where each week, I talk to an author about a thing they love and how it inspires their work.

I'm your host, Adam Sockel, and today's guest is Candi Sary, whose brand-new book, Magdalena, is an incredible and creepy story that surrounds ghosts, and spookiness, and strange relationships, and so, so much more. I loved it.

It is all about this reclusive person who develops a strange motherly interest in a teenager in her neighborhood. It's like this mix between what's real and what's not. I just, I adored it so much.

And this conversation we have today, is all about ghost stories, the ones that Candi grew up on, the ways that they obviously influence her writing, which is a very, very straight line in this particular influence. But I just love the conversation.

And if you've been listening for the past few weeks, you know that I am very much in that like fall, autumn, spooky season mindsets. This is a great, great discussion to have when thinking about those things.

And in line with that, a book recommendation I have for you all today, it's been out for a while. It garnered a bunch of attention, it won a bunch of awards. But Lincoln in the Bardo by George Saunders. It was actually, I think one of the first audiobooks I ever listened to.

And it takes place in February of 1862. There's a real historical fact that during the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln went into the tomb of his 11-year-old son who recently died from typhoid fever. It's a historical fact, and no one really ever knows why he chose to do that.

And so, what George Saunders does is he takes that kind of idea, and he tells this story about the Bardo, which is this spiritual limbo between death and rebirth. And he encounters a Greek chorus of spirits. There's just character after character after character comes through.

And I listened to the audio book because it had something like 250 different people who partook. It was crazy, crazy amazing, crazy elaborate. It's fascinating and it's a story of love, and death, and remembrance.

It's really, really powerful and really, really wonderful. I think if you've never read Lincoln in the Bardo, should definitely check that out.

And also, definitely check out Magdalena by today's guest, Candi Sary. Ugh, I just loved it. I loved it so much, and I know you guys will as well. It's a perfect book to settle in as the nights get a little bit darker and have some tea and just cozy up and really, really enjoy it.

If you want to get ahold of me, you can always find me @passions_and_prologues on Instagram and TikTok. Or you can shoot me an email at [email protected]. I love hearing from you there.

And every single month, I give away a random bookshop.org gift card to somebody who has sent me an email and told me what they are passionate about.

So, all of you have done that so far, I really, really appreciate it. If you want to do that, you can always email me there.

And if you have a moment, leave me a rating or review wherever you listen to your podcasts. It helps you find me just a little bit more easily.

Yeah, that is all of the housekeeping. I really, really appreciate you guys listening in. And now, enjoy this discussion with Candi Sary, author of Magdalena on Passions and Prologues.

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Okay, Candi, what is something you are super passionate about that we're going to be discussing today?

Candi Sary:

So, today, we're talking about my passion for ghost stories.

Adam Sockel:

Oh, this is perfect. Okay. And this absolutely ties into your book, so this is going to be great. Do you remember your first … it's hard to say like do you remember your first encounter with Ghost Stories? I feel like we all hear them when we're kids, but do you remember your kind of first interaction with it?

Candi Sary:

Well, yeah. As a kid, I remember the eerie tales my grandma told about her childhood in Croatia. I lived in a small town, and I remember just strange tales from around town.

And then of course, Light as a Feather, Stiff as a Board. Did you play that at slumber parties?

Adam Sockel:

Oh, yeah.

Candi Sary:

That was just so magical. There was something about that when you told the ghost story, we were able to lift the person. I was just always drawn to those.

And I think because coming from a small town, my parents were always going to weddings, and baptisms, and funerals. So, even though I didn't lose anyone personal as a kid, death was something I was so afraid of because it seemed to be so around.

And so, I just thought if ghosts are real, it means if I lost someone I loved, I can have them stick around.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. This this is so interesting. I had that similar feeling when I was a kid, mainly because (and I won't dive into it, it is a sad story) when I was 10, my best friend and I were in the room, and his father unexpectedly passed away.

And it was obviously very traumatic and all that, but like from that moment on, same thing, like I was terrified of death. And like I remember like thinking at night as like a little 10-year-old, like every single night being like, “Please keep my family safe from …”

And in my brain, I would list off individual things that I knew could happen. Yeah, I know, very heartbreaking.

But this is all to say, I would say if nothing else, like I found myself being more fascinated by scary stories. And like I love horror novels, and I've always loved horror stories, and I like that feeling of reading about these things and hearing them.

But I know what you mean. Like that fascination when you're a kid, especially when our minds are so young, we don't know any different, and it kind of lets you play in these spaces.

And like I said, it stuck with me, and I was always drawn to shows like Are You Afraid of the Dark or the books that are like scary stories to read, like those horrifying books.

So, when you were surrounded by these feelings, kind of how did that affect like the stories that you sought out to read or watch or things like that?

Candi Sary:

So, I think for me, I looked for more comforting. I did stay away from really scary ones, but I did look for more comforting stories, like people who came back and visited their family. You hear stories like that. And even as an adult, I've lost people.

And I had an old neighbor, he was in his ‘80s, and we were really close to him. When his wife passed away, we had him over for dinner all the time.

And the night before he passed away, a neighbor up the street had a dream about, his name was Bob, up on the roof throwing pennies. It was a really strange dream.

The next morning his mom woke up and got an email titled, Angels Throwing Pennies From Heaven. So, you were like, “Oh, okay, let's look for pennies for Bob.”

And so, the evening after his funeral, I was in a parking lot and I saw a man walking toward me and he looked just like Bob. And so, for a moment I just stopped and thought, “I'm going to smile at this man, it'll be symbolic. Like maybe seeing Bob one more time.”

Two feet in front of me, he stopped, bent down to the ground, picks up a penny and just held … I just had the chills, like, “Is this really happening?” And so, after that I would find pennies.

And so, I don't know, is that a coincidence? But it's like that Einstein quote you have two … what is that? Two ways to live life, as if nothing's a miracle or as if everything's a miracle. So, I go for the second.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, no, I mean, I feel like that's such a better way to live. And I will say like I am not a very religious person, but I'm a very spiritual person. And I am prone to believe stuff like that.

Like the same best friend that I've had ever seen growing up, his name was Kurt, and him and his family … I'm the youngest of four. There are two-

Candi Sary:

I am too.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. So, I'm the youngest of four, and also, he's the youngest of four. And they have two girls, two boys. And our family (no one's going to see my hand gestures here) but like it's really aligned. Like he and I were born 25 days apart. The next two brothers were born super like close by a couple of years.

So, our families are very like intertwined so much to the fact that they actually lived, and his mom still lives in the house that my grandpa built. And so, my mom grew up in this house. And her grandmother or her mother, my grandmother, I believe like passed away in that house.

And like my friend, Kurt, said, “Yeah, I saw this older woman rocking in a chair.” Like when we were kids, like told my mom. And my mom was like, “That was definitely my mom.”

And like I remember when his father had passed away, like I thought I was seeing him everywhere, but I'm pretty sure that was just like my young mind trying to come to terms with this person no longer being there.

But my friend just randomly seeing an older woman, yet he had no idea who it was, but it being this place where this woman spent all this time. Like I don't know, I definitely believe in that stuff. And I guess I'm like you, I like to believe, like to see the beauty in things as opposed to being like nothing is special.

Do you find yourself still having those occurrences here and there?

Candi Sary:

Yes. So, another friend passed away, a really good friend of ours. And the night after he passed away, when his wife called us to let us know, our smoke alarm went off. And it just seemed kind of you hear about spirits in electricity or energy.

And then her birthday landed on the first Father's Day after his passing. And again, in the middle of the night, the smoke alarm went off that night. So, it would go off on really interesting days that were significant to her.

So, again, I don't know, is it him, but I like to believe it is.

And recently it went off three times and I texted my friend, “Hey, is Russ trying to tell you something?” She said, “Oh my gosh, we need to talk.”

And she said she had just had a dream about him a few days ago. A vivid dream. And she hadn't had one in forever. And then the smoke alarm went off three times to wake her.

So, how do you explain that? I mean, it's so comforting to think that they're coming back.

Adam Sockel:

Well, and I love that you used the word comforting. Because again, like I was referencing like growing up, I've talked about on the show, like I love the Goosebumps books. Like I said, I love like the, Are You Afraid of the Dark and stuff like that.

And I still read mass amounts of horror. I don't watch horror movies. But I think the reason I'm drawn to all these stories about ghost things is because I spent so long as a kid being so terrified about and being like, “What happens after?” Because obviously-

Candi Sary:

Right? Yes.

Adam Sockel:

It's like what happens after? So, I do think, like you said, I like that you're talking about how it's comforting to think about these things. It's not like if you were to see like a specter insert word you want to hear for ghosts, like a lot of people have a tendency to be like, “Oh my God, that's terrifying.”

But I love that you say it's comforting to see like these people because they're not going to come back to like … or if they are, they're coming back to bring you these warm feelings.

Candi Sary:

Right. Yeah, yeah.

Adam Sockel:

So, you mentioned having these like kind of one-off experiences here and there with relative frequently, like with your friends and family and things, how would you say that it kind of affects your life, like the way that you do your work or the way that you do your writing and things like that?

Candi Sary:

Well, I'm always drawn to adding them in stories just because I think writing fiction because I don't know for sure is this really a ghost? Is this really happening? With fiction, I can make it for sure. I can make it real.

And again, maybe it's just to comfort me, but I just like the idea of combining the two worlds. Just having the supernatural in some way inserted in most of my fiction just because it feels good to make it true. Whether it is or not in real life, it just feels good to make it true.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. Especially having like Magdalena, which we’re going to talk about in just a moment, like where yes, like you said, like you can make it true, but it's also, like you weave it into a real-life story where it's not like …

As a joke, I used to say the word Scooby-Doo before I started recording. It's not like a Scooby-Doo story where it's like a theater of the absurd type of a thing.

So, for you, like how do you sort of walk that line of saying, “Okay, I want to put a supernatural aspect into my story, but I want to keep it grounded.” Like what for you does that entail as a writer?

Candi Sary:

Well, I think keeping it somewhat subtle so it's not so overwhelming. Something that the reader can digest. So, keeping the story as realistic as possible and just adding it throughout.

And I love writing in first person. So, you really get Dottie in this novel, you really get her strange voice, and you understand that her perception of it is kind of eerie and haunting.

And then while I'm not writing really kind of pay attention to things, I always feel like I get signs about the book.

In fact, early, early on, while writing this book, in the middle of the night, a radio came on downstairs or TV and a song came on and it was really eerie and strange. And I didn't recognize it, but I listened. I could recognize Chris Martin's voice.

So, the next day I look up Coldplay songs and the song is called Death and All His Friends.

Adam Sockel:

Oh my God.

Candi Sary:

I'm just like, “Oh gosh, death and all his friends visited me last night.”

And so, things like that while I'm writing just kind of get me in the mode. And so, I just stay open to experiences, open to believing that signs are coming to me. And then it kind of plays into the writing and it keeps the magic alive as a writer.

And so, that's what kind of keeps the story a little bit magical.

Adam Sockel:

Do you find yourself like … trying to think how I can phrase this. Like I find myself when I'm wandering around either a new city or like a thing that has existed for a long time, it's like an older forest that I know that the trees are very, very old or like a cathedral or something. I find myself thinking about like the ghosts that could be in there or the sororities that could like …

Do you kind of find yourself doing the same thing? Like looking when you're out in nature or out in the world for these signs that things are maybe a little bit more than they seem.

Candi Sary:

Oh yeah. I mean, there is such a spirit to trees. I have this yard that just has beautiful trees in it, and I go there for comfort. I feel kind of like they're beings surrounding me. Sometimes just going out there grounds me.

But there's something about it. I told my husband, it's almost like a face. You know when you fall in love with a person and you fall in love with their face, the way my yard, the trees, the way they're all put together, it becomes like a face that I fall in love with.

If I'm gone for a while and I come back, “Oh, there she is.” So, yeah, there's a spirit to everything.

Adam Sockel:

I love that you said that specifically about trees. I wrote a short story like several years ago about this like old ancient tree. And like I'm the same way. I love the idea of the fact that like there are trees in the United States that are older than the United States, like things like that.

It's almost like they clearly, if they have a spirit to them or whatever it is, like they have seen so much like they-

Candi Sary:

Oh, my goodness, yes. Sometimes I'll pass one just to touch one to know like just the patience of how long it took to get to that point and exactly what they've seen. Yes.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. Oh my God, when you just said the patience, my God, we are very similar people. When I'm going to like walks with my dog, I will see where … and again, I'm using hand gestures, so people should know to like … where you see a tree that splits into like two or three.

I am always blown away by it. I'm thinking about it where I'm like, “At some point, that was a sapling and that happened. And now, this tree is 40 feet tall, and that same split is right there.”

Like I don't even know like how to wrap my head around what I'm thinking when I see that. But that stuff always blows my mind, like, “What caused this tree to turn its branch in a certain way or whatever it is.” I think about that all the time.

Candi Sary:

Yes. I have one of those in my yard where it's so beautiful. And I'm convinced my friend and I talk about like when trees come together, they want to touch each other like they're friends or … like we won't trim them away because they're sort of touching each other and they want to contact.

Adam Sockel:

Oh, I love that so much. So, getting back to kind of like the ghosts’ stories and things before I get sidetracked into saying shit about trees and everyone's like, “Wow, they really went hard on the foliage.”

So, can you give my listeners an introduction to Magdalena? We've been kind of talking around it a little bit, but can you kind of give them an introduction to the plot, and the story, and where it came from?

Candi Sary:

Yeah. So, it's a story about a woman named Dottie who lives in a small town. It's kind of a gossipy superstitious small town.

And she's the outcast. And she had had four miscarriages. So, she's alone and her husband had an accident. He lives in a rest home. He's unresponsive.

And one day 15-year-old Magdalena next door comes to her door. So, Magdalena is the town sensitive. She talks to ghosts, and she offers to conjure a ghost for Dottie.

And she really does, but Dottie is less intrigued with her supernatural ability than with having a girl in her home because she'd always longed for children. So, Dottie begins to secretly pretend that Magdalena's her daughter.

And it just goes kind of strange. So, there's ghost activity and there's this woman longing for a daughter. And Magdalena goes missing, the whole town is believing that Dottie did something.

And so, that's kind of where the story is. She's writing a letter to prove her innocence.

But what's interesting about that is I started the novel the year both of my kids went off to college. And I thought I was writing a ghost story. I was writing a ghost story and yet Dottie's longing over a daughter kept kind of taking over the story.

And only after finishing the first draft did, I realize that this story was my way of mourning the empty nest. So, even though it's a ghost story, there's a lot of tenderness and longing with motherhood in there.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. And I think part of one of the reasons the story stuck so much with me is … I'm 37, my mom listens to these, so I know she'll know what I'm talking about. Like I still remember the last day, and so, being the youngest of four, I was the last one to leave the nest.

And I remember the last night before I was going to go off to college, she and I just sat on our porch and we talked for a really long time because we're really, really close. And we still are. And it was just like we were talking about how it was never going to be the same.

Like she was, “This is the last night you're going to live here, live here.” Like yeah, I would come back for summers and everything, but it was just like it was this huge thing.

And like don't get me wrong, I always tell people like I've been like 75 at heart since I was like 18. So, I don't have any problem with getting older in my own life.

But the things that I do miss, that I'm nostalgic for is like all of these moments that I had with my family that like afternoon birthday party for a niece or nephew can't like replace like a week together and things like that.

So, for me, that's what drew me to the story is like that longing obviously not of like a mother, because I am not a mother, but like that I do love that.

So, like for you, what has that experience been like now, that you've had a little while to process this? Like your kids growing up and everything like that. How has that felt and how did you kind of keep implementing that in the story?

Candi Sary:

It was great. It ended up being really great. My husband and I we had so much time because both our kids played a bunch of sports. We were just constantly — volleyball, surf team, this, that.

And so, there was a lot of time for us, and we really enjoyed it. We got to reconnect again and remember who we were before the kids. So, that was really great.

And then they'd come home from college and they’d visit, it would be so great to see them, but each time they left again there was that feeling of loss again.

Even my daughter, she lives in New York and when she comes to visit, oh it's just so fun. She stays with us, and we are just together constantly every day. And it's just so much fun.

But then when she leaves, I usually cry on the way home from the airport. It's hard to lose them again. But they're doing so well in life and so it's exciting to watch them as adults.

And I really gotten into my life, and gotten more into writing, and finding my thing.

Adam Sockel:

So, did you find yourself putting those kind of mixed emotions into the story?

Candi Sary:

I think I really stayed with the longing most of the story until the very end, there's a little bit of clarity there. And I think that very end, that little … what is it? Like two page ending kind of gives a feel of where I am.

I mean, I am nothing like Dottie clearly. And yet there so much that we share. I mean, we really share a lot. And so, the fact that her writing, my writing. I mean, so, there is a lot in there at the end parallels what's happening to me.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. So, I've had a lot of writers tell me when they finish a book, like I've heard so many mixed reactions where some people say it is tough to like give this story over to readers.

And I've had other people say like, “Yeah, once I finished this story, it is theirs. It's no longer my story, it's now, the reader's story.”

But with this being at least one of the emotions that you were feeling when you were writing it, like how did it feel to kind of finish it and now, at the time we're recording it, it comes out in a little over a month. Like how did it feel to have this be completed?

Candi Sary:

It feels really good. I love having readers read it. I love hearing what they take from it, but it still stays with me. Like I still feel Dottie and Magdalena. Like if I reread something I'm there, I'm back to that moment when we live together.

But yeah, it's exciting to have … I've had some early readers but I'm excited to have — when it's out and to have lots of readers hopefully. It'll be great to hear. And it's funny to hear takes that I didn't necessarily intend. You know how that is with writing and that's kind of fun to hear what readers take from it.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, well, you're right because it's like you sit so long with a story that's just yours or like just yours and an editor’s.

But even before like you go and like get a publishing house or a literary agent, even before you do that, you've sat with a story for so long and you see it through your own perspective and like yes, it's the writer's perspective but you see a certain way.

Yeah. And I think that is why I've had authors say like once it's out in the world, it's other people's stories to kind of talk about.

But that is really interesting to think about like your perspective of the story that you wrote versus what other people are going to think about it or what the story means to them.

Candi Sary:

Yeah. Mark Haskell Smith was one of the first blurbs I got, and he said, what is it? “Beautifully written and satisfyingly creepy.”

And it was so cool to hear creepy because I thought I knew that the tenderness would come through because I had so much heart putting in what I put into it. And yet to hear it was creepy, I was like, “Oh good. Those eerie elements came through.” Because I wasn't sure they were going to come through, so it was a cool term to hear.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. Well, and also, I know from a book publishing and book marketing standpoint, like agents and publishing houses want you to be able to like easily define what your book is because then they can take it out into the world and say like, “Oh, for readers of X and Y.”

But I personally, for a book like yours and like the stories that I write where there's like the emotions are complicated. Like you said, it can be like sentimental, and endearing, and creepy, and poignant.

And I feel like that to me, is the best type of story that makes you feel multiple emotions. That makes sense.

Candi Sary:

Because that's like life. Life is beautiful and creepy and everything. It has a little bit of everything. So, I do like that.

Adam Sockel:

So, one last question about like ghost stories. Do you find yourself like nowadays drawn to seeking out ghost stories as an adult? Or have you kind of gotten away from them from when you were a kid?

Candi Sary:

I am drawn to hearing ghost stories. I don't read enough. I just started reading Shirley Jackson after my first draft, like after I had written my first draft and I'm like, “Oh goodness, I need to read more of her.”

So, things like that. But yet I haven't found a ton of ghost stories I love to read and so maybe that's why I keep wanting to write them. Because my next novel is also a ghost story that turned into so much more. But it's just so fun to stay immersed in one that I have control over.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, no, I mean, that makes total sense. And Shirley Jackson is like … I actually somewhere behind me, I have like the complete works of Shirley Jackson.

Candi Sary:

Oh, well, really?

Adam Sockel:

Like I have had several of her books, but some local bookstore had like the complete works all in one thing. And I was like, “Well, I most certainly have to purchase that.”

Candi Sary:

Right. I was at the bookstore this weekend, picked up … is it A Visit? It's that short story, I think it's a Christmas ghost story. It was really good. I just read it in one sitting. It was really fun.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, she has incredible ghost stories. And then she also, has a couple of like memoirs that she wrote. I don't know if you're familiar with these.

Candi Sary:

No, I haven’t.

Adam Sockel:

And they are hilarious. Which is what's so funny. Yeah. They're all about her like domestic life, like with her family. And I think it's Life Among Savages is one of them. And then there's a second one.

And like it's so funny, my friend Mallory O'Meara, she was on the podcast recently. And she and I talked about it … like we've talked about it a bunch of times now. But she was the one who told me, she's like, “By the way, do you know Shirley Jackson has memoirs and they're hilarious.”

And there's something so funny about reading books by this like queen of ghost stories. And there's just like it's just her being like, “Yeah, and I had to take my kid to school, and he wouldn't get up and you wouldn't eat breakfast. And like he was-

Candi Sary:

Oh God, that's … okay, I have to read those.

Adam Sockel:

Last question for you. I always end the show by having the authors come on, give a recommendation of some kind. It could be a book, it could be a recipe, it could be going for a walk. But so, what is something that you want to recommend to people that you think they should know more about?

Candi Sary:

So, to stay in theme, I'll recommend if someone has lost someone, pay attention to signs. Maybe something could happen. Something that you think is just ordinary, maybe signs are coming through. So, just kind of paying attention to that.

Adam Sockel:

I love that. I love that so much and I love this discussion. This is something that was so up my alley and Magdalena is such a wonderful book. I know people are really going to love it.

Candi, thank you so much for joining me today.

Candi Sary:

Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it too. And I love your podcast.

Adam Sockel:

Well, thank you so, so much. I really appreciate it.

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Passions and Prologues is proud to be an Evergreen Podcasts and was created by Adam Sockel. It was produced by Adam Sockel and Sean Rule-Hoffman.

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