High kickin' it with Fiona Davis

[Music Playing]

Adam Sockel:

You are listening to Passions & Prologues, a literary podcast where each week I'll interview an author about a thing they love and how it inspires their work. I'm your host Adam Sockel, and today's guest is my good old literary friend, Fiona Davis.

Fiona has written a number of spectacular and New York Times bestselling books. Her latest story is The Spectacular, which is a book set in New York City in 1956.

Tells the story of 19-year-old Marion Brooks and a lot of different things happened to her, including an opportunity to audition for the very famous Radio City Rockettes. I will not get into more of the story just now, I'll let Fiona do that a little bit later.

But the conversation we lead off this podcast episode with is all about her deep, deep love of the theater and her initial career as an actress.

We get into a lot of the research she did for the Radio City Rockettes, which is something that admittedly, I really only think about during the holidays when you see them at New Year's Eve and during Christmas time, during their extremely famous leg kicks. There's so much more that goes into them, and it is a fascinating story.

We get into the different aspects of the theater and how they connect to the ways that she writes her story, which is a lot of fun. I really, really love this conversation. Fiona is someone that I've interviewed a number of times and it was great to reconnect with her.

In keeping with the themes of the whole New York Cityness of this particular episode, I want to give you a book recommendation, which is The Gargoyle Hunters by John Freeman Gill. This is very, very funny and it's very, very poignant. It came out way back in 2017, and if you can still find the hard cover copy, it has deckled edges, which if you're a book lover, you know exactly how exciting that is.

This is a love letter really to a disappearing version of New York City, but it's also a very, very emotional story between a father and a son. It wrestles with New York City's constant relationship with time and how the city itself is ever changing and never truly “complete.”

And it also circles around a story of an architectural heist where these people were stealing aspects of gigantic buildings. They were quite literally taking gargoyles off of buildings, which was something that was actually happening in New York City in the 1970s.

A delightful story, I think you're absolutely going to love it. That's the Gargoyle Hunters by John Freeman Gill.

I do want to thank everybody who has reached out to me at passions&[email protected]. I absolutely love hearing the things that you're passionate about. It's super interesting to me and everybody who sends me things that you're passionate about or requests for book recommendations, I take all those and I pick one random person to send a bookshop.org gift card to every single month.

So, thanks so much for doing that, it really means a lot to me, I really, really appreciate it.

Yeah, that is just about all the housekeeping. You can always find me on Instagram and TikTok at Passions & Prologues.

Be sure to check in with me there. I love doing book recommendations and all sorts of fun stuff, but I'm not going to keep you any longer. I'm going to let you get to this delightful conversation with Fiona Davis, author of The Spectacular, on Passions & Prologues.

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Fiona, what is something you are super passionate about that we're going to discuss today?

Fiona Davis:

My main passion other than writing books, of course, is the theater. To be honest, I was a complete theater geek in high school, and I was in plays, and I actually went to theater school after college and since I've been here in New York, I love going to see theater.

It just is such a joy. It's kind of book adjacent, but it's not because theater is its own thing, it's so collaborative, it's just an art form on its own. To me, it's just shocking that you see a play and how great it is, and you realize all the pieces that went into creating that play. What makes a good one and what makes a bad one.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, this is fantastic. So, I also am a giant theater nerd. Actually, I tell people a fun fact about Cleveland, where I live is we outside of New York City … so we have the second largest theater district in the country outside of New York City.

So, anytime something goes on tour, we always get first run stuff. So, we were one of the first cities that got Hamilton for example, or just anything that you can think of, we get first, which is really great. But I also have always sort of had this lifelong thing.

So, when did you first discover your love of the theater? What was your first experiences you can remember?

Fiona Davis:

That's a really good question. We lived in New Jersey, but we didn't really go in to see theater when I was a young, young kid. And I think it was more that in high school, I felt very confused as to where I fit in.

It was a really big football high school, you're a football player, you're a cheerleader. And I just didn't fit in at all. And then I found the theater department and it was just kind of a lark of, “Well, I'll go and audition for something.”

And then I started working behind the scenes and seeing all the seniors who were so cool, and they were acting away. And so, I think I just got drawn into it naturally that way of just not necessarily seeing something, but just wanting to be part of a team and thinking, “Well, maybe this might be my team.”

Adam Sockel:

Do you remember — because I felt the same way. I am the youngest of four and my brother, my two sisters, they didn't really do theater in high school, but they had friends who did it.

I remember being like eight or nine-years-old and watching these people that came to my house all the time as my sister's friends, I remember Godspell was the first thing I remember seeing that … one of my sister's best friends, his name is Taylor Chapell, don't know if he's going to hear this, but I loved him.

So, he was one of those people when I was eight or nine, he was this like high schooler who actually came over and talked to me and was so nice. And he played Jesus in Godspell. And I remember being just distraught, spoiler alert for anyone who's ever read the Bible or seen Godspell, but Jesus dies at the end.

I remember sobbing and just being like, “Oh my gosh.” That was the moment that I realized, I was like, “Wow, I get this,” like a light bulb went off. And so, then the same thing, I went to a very small high school, and so I got to do sports and theater, but I still remember to this day the first shows we were part of.

So, what were the shows that — do you remember what you guys were doing?

Fiona Davis:

Oh, yeah. I mean, the first one that I saw them do my freshman year was Blithe Spirit, Madame Arcati and the Seance and all that. And it was just so brilliant, they were so funny and broad, I thought it was great.

And then my second year I auditioned for The Miracle Worker, and I got the role of Annie Sullivan, the teacher. And it was just great because the girl Angela Bardiardou (I hope maybe she's listening), she played Helen Keller and there's that fight scene in the middle of it where it's like a five-minute scene where they're fighting around a dining room table.

And it's like a real knockdown fight as Helen's trying to get away and the teacher's trying to get her to understand. And we went off and did it in this competition, like some drama competition. And it was just incredible. And so, that was one of the very first ones.

And then I made my parents start coming into New York, and so then we saw The Real Thing with Glenn Close and that cast, Cynthia Nixon, was a girl in that cast. And I remember thinking, “Wow, look at that,” and so, yeah. And Pirates of Penzance, it was incredible.

Adam Sockel:

So, did you guys do — because I weirdly remember this, for as long as my school was open, I was actually the last graduating class in our school before it closed. But for as long as it was open, there was a play in the fall and then a musical in the spring.

That was just light clockwork. And so, I can still remember all the ones that we did where it was like Cinderella and there was this very strange play called Noises Off, which in the theater people know what it is, but people who haven't, if you try to explain it to them, it's very hard.

Fiona Davis:

It's such a farce, yeah.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, and don't drink the water. So, do you remember, were you guys doing exclusively plays or was there different things depending on the time of the year?

Fiona Davis:

We did, I think it was around seven plays a year. Well, we had two drama teachers and in fact, one Mr. Moroney, he comes to some of my book readings if I'm down in New Jersey, he's lovely.

And so, we did three in the first semester and then four in the second. We did Pajama Games, Our Town, there were so many. And it was great because it meant that you could act in some, but then you had to work behind the scenes in others. And really help with the sets and or be in the chorus dancing along it. I still remember the way it was when the cast list went up on the office door in the theater. It was like “Oh.”

Adam Sockel:

So, when did you know that you wanted to … like you said, you try make this a career. When did you say, “Okay, I'm going to go to acting school and I'm going to try and make this a thing.” What was that process like?

Fiona Davis:

I kind of slid into it, again that's what I seem to do. I just slide into wherever I'm headed next. I was in college, and I did a few plays there. And then a friend of mine who was a year older, she got into this program called Circle in the Square, which is an acting program here in New York.

And I thought, “Well, I'll audition for that because that's what Linda did. So, I guess that's what I'll try.” And I got wait listed and then the week before it was supposed to start, I got a call saying, “Okay, someone dropped out, so you can come.”

So, I suddenly was like, “Alright, I'm moving to New York,” and did that for a couple of years. And I have to say I'm an okay actress. I do Shakespeare and I was a stage manager in our town, and I'm a solid actress, but you need more than that. You need to be raw; you need to really expose yourself.

And I could never quite do that, having English parents just kind of stunted me a little bit in a good way. And so, as I was an actress, it was a lot of fun and I did it for 10 years, but I could see that there are people who are just so good, and I was not that.

And so, it was a real come to Jesus’ moment of — speaking of Jesus, of, “Okay, what do you want to do?” But what's great about it is you can still go on appreciating it the rest of your life. I love going to the theater, I love watching other people work and just being blown away by what they do.

Adam Sockel:

I was going to ask, with so much experience in that space … I like to talk of having interviewed authors for a decade now at this point, when I get people that ask me for book recommendations, I find sometimes I almost get too nuanced when I'm giving them this.

And they're just like, “I just want to know if it's a thriller or a mystery.” And I'm like, meanwhile, it's eight minutes later and I'm still describing the plot.

But when you go to the theater, having the experience that you do and having spent so much time in it, do you pick up on little nuances or I guess do you pay attention to things that maybe the casual theater goer wouldn't?

Fiona Davis:

You know what it is, when it's not working, I try and figure out why. I start getting very analytical about what is it? Is it the blocking? Is it the script? Is it the acting? And just try to pull apart what's not working. I find when something's working well, I'm so lost in it, I can't analyze it. And so, I think it's just a little more of a critical eye to it when it doesn't work.

Adam Sockel:

Are there types of stories you are drawn to? For people that are thinking about musicals, like there's giant spectacles and there's revivals of old shows and there's really quiet small stories like Once, which is one of my favorite musicals ever.

Are there shows or I guess types of shows you find yourself drawn to that, you know, like this is kind of your wheelhouse thing that you want to enjoy?

Fiona Davis:

Yeah, I do love Shakespeare, there's nothing like it. Here in New York, you have Shakespeare in the park where they put on a show in the middle of Central Park in this beautiful outdoor theater.

And you're sitting there, and it gets darker and darker, and the lights come up and there'll be a raccoon crossing the stage at some point, or a hawk will fly over. Or behind it, there's a pond, and then there's this castle on a cliff called Belvedere Castle, and they'll light it.

So, you're watching these people act as if they're in Henry V, and then there's a castle in the distance, that's just perfect.

And for me, I love Shakespeare because at the end of a number of his comedies especially, he'll have two lost souls reunite. And there's that moment that just gives you the chills when a father finds his daughter or a husband finds his wife or a sister finds her brother, it's so powerful.

So, I would say that, but then I'm more into plays than musicals, although I have to say Hamilton and Once, just beyond anything.

Adam Sockel:

To me, I'm always blown away, especially with plays even more so than — I mean, musicals, there's obviously tons of emotion depending on what you're seeing.

But the strange thing I always think about when I'm watching musicals and I see these huge emotional scenes, I almost am more impressed when I'm watching a play and I see a huge emotional scene because in my mind, there's an aspect of emotion. Our emotions are so moved by the music we're hearing. So, in my mind I'm like, “Oh, the actors can play off that to move themselves to emotions.”

But then, if I'm watching something like Death of a Salesman or something where there's huge emotions and I find myself just being blown away because … I don't know why, but specifically for watching theater, I can't take myself out of the moment enough.

What blows my mind is I'm always like, “They, do this eight times a week,” that's all that goes through my head the whole time. And to me, I think that's the thing that is always most impressive to me is how consistent they have to be for so long.

Fiona Davis:

Right, because you see them on a movie set and they get worked up and there's some great emotional scene and then it's done, and they never have to do it again. And then you have people doing it eight shows a week and having to hit that every time, it really is remarkable.

And it's hard. The longest show I ever did run for 111 performances on Broadway, and it was a real ensemble, so it wasn't like I was on the stage the whole time. And it was really hard because when you've said something over and over and you've heard it, there'll be a point where you're sitting there and you're going, “Wait, have we done that part already?”

You space out and you start thinking, “Well, what do I want for dinner?” And you're still acting, but you're thinking about something else and it's so hard to stay in that moment.

Adam Sockel:

And it's so interesting you say that. I saw this video recently where they were talking about some musical artists, and they were saying the same thing. Beforehand, they were talking about a song that they were working on, and then he went out and did a two-hour show and then he came back and the first thing he said to the person off stage was like, “I thought of how I want to end that song.”

And my initial thought was like, “How are you able to do that?” But like you said, when someone's on stage every single night, especially for plays and musicals, like you said, where they're doing the same thing every single — it's almost like you just go through “the motions.”

I feel like you said, that's where else so much of the talent comes for these people. Because they can sort of do that like matinee situation, but they're still giving all of themselves, they can just also separate their mind into thinking about dinner or whatever it might be.

Fiona Davis:

Right, exactly. It really is an amazing art form and it's been around for so long. There's something about the magic of watching people recreate something on stage, even though, you know it's fake yet it's real because they're bringing themselves to it and the words are beautiful or the set's gorgeous and then suddenly, you're just lost in the moment.

Adam Sockel:

And the one thing that really, I enjoy most about theater is it’s … and it’s the same thing with concerts, but it's a singular moment that there will be something in your viewing of this play that won't happen the next night.

Like you said, it'll be a choice, or it'll be a way and we might not even know it as audience members because we're only seeing one example of it, but the actors, they know whether it's giving another actor a different line to read or something like that. So, I do really enjoy that. Knowing there's a snapshot of a moment that will never happen again, I really do enjoy that.

Fiona Davis:

And I think so many people are used to watching screens and so you forget, “Oh right, I'm here with these actual people, they're right there in front of me,” it's incredible.

Adam Sockel:

So, I'm interested to know if your experience in the theater relates at all to your writing process. People who are familiar with your work, which is a lot of people, a lot of your stories are set in New York City, the Lions Fifth Avenue and of course the newest book is Spectacular, which we'll talk about in just a minute.

But a lot of your stories are surrounding New York, which is of course where you live and where theater makes its home I suppose.

But do you think there's a connection between your love of theater and how you go about the process of telling your own stories?

Fiona Davis:

That's such a good question. And first of all, thank you for being an early supporter of my books from right at the beginning.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, of course.

Fiona Davis:

I truly appreciate that. And yeah, for sure, I think there's a theatrical aspect to a lot of my books and there's one that's set on Broadway, because I just wanted to explore that and see what it was like from an outsider's point of view to see if I could make what happens on the stage come alive in a book.

And then just in terms of writing, I think when I'm working on a scene with a lot of characters, you really need to stage direct it. You need to make sure the blocking works, so that it doesn't feel like a muddle. And so that actors are doing something that's maybe active or that the characters are doing something active that shows what they're thinking inside.

Like either sip down a glass and that helps just feed it. And that comes from having been on stage and having to make choices, I think, as an actor.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, that's really interesting. So, when you are writing out a scene in your mind, are you sort of, like you say, kind of blocking it, because it's not for people who may not be familiar, when you get a script for a play, it will literally say like, so and so actor, like the famous one is exits stage, pursued by a bear, but they literally will tell you where you need to go.

So, you're thinking through those things when you are writing your scenes?

Fiona Davis:

Yeah, sure. It's almost like I'm watching a play in my head of these actors. I'm thinking of like there's a big scene in The Magnolia Palace where there's a reading of the will and there's all the family in the room and the lawyer and I really had to picture it as a play as if I'm facing the room and here's the fourth wall and here's where they're seated, and she shouldn't rise at this point. Yeah, it's like directing.

Adam Sockel:

Are there other things that you think about from a theater standpoint that go into writing, the one that people will probably know, the most famous one is Chekhov's gun. And the point of Chekhov's gun is put a gun on a stage in Act One, it needs to go off at some point in the show.

Do you think there are things like that for writing novels as well? Do you think that way when you're telling your stories?

Fiona Davis:

Yeah, for sure. In one book there's a letter, that you know the characters should not leave out, that that letter should be hidden. And it's left out in the same way Chekhov’s gun is because you need a plot twist to move the story forward and that letter will be it.

And so, you just plant something in the reader's mind of, “Oh no,” just plant a little tension and a little worry and then that will pay off later big time.

Adam Sockel:

Speaking of mysteries and things paying off later, your new book, The Spectacular, there's a lot of mystery and there's a lot of harrowing things going on that's based on some real stuff. So, can you give my audience an introduction to the new book and where the ideas came from?

Fiona Davis:

Sure, so it's set at Radio City Music Hall, and it's from the point of view of an up-and-coming Rockette named Marion in 1956. And she goes against her father's wishes to audition to be a Rockette.

And then, in my stories, as I research, I like to find something that actually happened in that decade to ground and anchor the story. And in my research, I found there's this guy named the Mad Bomber who was terrorizing New York setting bombs at all famous places like the library or Grand Central.

He hit Rockefeller Center, he hit Radio City Music Hall twice. And they caught him using criminal profiling for the very first time. And I thought, that's incredible.

So, I have Marion and for very personal reasons, wanting to trap down this mad bomber who in my book I called the Big Apple Bomber. And so, she teams up with a brilliant but very introverted psychiatrist to help solve the puzzle and they're a mismatch. So, it's a bit of romance, a bit of thriller, a bit of mystery, and hopefully a really fun ride.

Adam Sockel:

And so, one thing I want to clarify for people, when you're talking about this bomber that terrorized New York, it was like a decade and a half or something, it was an absurd amount of time.

Fiona Davis:

16 years, and he set off 33 bombs and 15 injured people, some seriously. And no one heard of it, that was so wild.

Adam Sockel:

Honestly, that was the thing like when I saw your new book, because I know that you like to put the things from the actual past in there. I was like, “Wait a minute, that feels so specific.” I mean, and I looked it up and sure enough I was like, “Oh, I did not know that either,” that's an insane story.

But I'm curious about what we're talking about blocking scenes and things, but I feel like this book has so much … there's so many different things in the plot that all work so seamlessly together.

And I'm wondering, was there a challenge for you to make all of this work? Like you said there's the famous music hall like Radio City Music Hall, and there’s the Rockettes and then there's psychological profiling and there's romance. How do you go about taking on a story that has so much in it? I guess how do you approach that?

Fiona Davis:

Yeah, you know, with this one is a little different because a lot of my books are dual timeline. And this one, I decided to really focus in 1956 with just a few chapters that are in the 1990s of this Rockette looking back at her life.

But the main crux of it is in one timeline, and because of that I could weave more into that story. And in many ways the theme of both storylines, both Marion's struggle and then the capture of the Mad Bomber are really about when do you conform, if you're in a precision dance kick line, you have to be exactly like everybody else.

And so, when do you kind of pull away your own individuality or creativity in order for the greater good. And so, that's the theme that runs through the whole book in that way that hopefully pulls together all those threads.

Adam Sockel:

I have a potentially silly question, but why the Rockettes? What made you want to write about them?

Fiona Davis:

I had not considered it at all, but as I was finishing up one book, I got this email through my author website and it was a woman saying, “I'm in my 80s, I'm a former Rockette and if you want to know all the secrets of Radio City Music Hall, you should call me.”

And so, I called her, her name's Sandy, she was brilliant. And she remembered so much and so much detail and had archival material that she FedExed to me so I could use it as my research. And so, it was all from Sandy because I would never have considered it, the Rockettes intimidate the heck out of me. I'm not a dancer by any means.

But she made it just come alive. And the idea of the sisterhood of all these women who in the 50s when you had to be a nurse or a secretary or a teacher were dancing on stage, independent, living on their own, free to do what they wanted.

And so, since then, after that I talked to a number of Rockettes, some were there in the 40s, some were there just recently. And just learned so many fun things that I thought, “Oh, I have to do it.”

Adam Sockel:

And that is incredible, I've only heard of one other example of an author getting sort of like being told an idea that's almost too good to be true like that. And it was it was Alice Hoffman, we were talking about her book The World That We Knew, which is this book, it's set during the Holocaust and there's a lot of magic in it since it’s Alice Hoffman.

But it was sort of the same thing. I remember her telling me, she's like, “I was doing a book tour and this woman came up to me and said, I have a story, it's going to be your next book.” And she's like, “I'm sure you do, I get that all the time, I'm Alice Hoffman.”

And she told her this story about basically her grandmother who somehow survived through a series of people basically just passing her off at the last second before the Nazis. And so, she's like, “I had to write this story.”

I'm just imagining you being like, if I want to learn anything about the Rockette, like that had to be such a joyful email to get.

Fiona Davis:

Yes it was, because I was struggling. I really wasn't sure what to do, and I couldn't find a building that would work. And the minute I found that, I thought, “Oh yeah, I have to do it,” because I mean, everyone wants to be a Rockette.

Adam Sockel:

They're so glamorous and I feel like most people would see them in — you see them on Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade and then you see them during New Year's Eve. But like you said, it's flawless and they all look perfect and yeah, just that idea of … I wouldn't even know how you would even go about auditioning for that. Yeah, it’s connected from the rest of the world, that's amazing.

Fiona Davis:

Yeah, and there's so many fun scenes to write, the audition scene, the first time she's on stage. There's so many fun things to unpack.

Adam Sockel:

I'm curious if you would ever consider writing plays because of your background. And obviously it's such a different style of writing, but is that something you've ever considered?

Fiona Davis:

I think it would be amazing to do that. It's so hard I think to write a play because all you have is dialogue. You can't get inside a character's head and explain what's going on, you have to do it all in dialogue.

So, to me it would be a real challenge to be able to do that. But at the same time, I've read so many plays that I understand why they work and why they don't. I think it'd be great, and there's some wonderful modern playwrights right now that are doing just great, great things.

So, yeah, maybe down the road, give myself a little challenge. Wow, I hadn't thought of that, amazing.

Adam Sockel:

What's the best play you've seen in the last, I don't know, six months or so? What's something that really stood out to you?

Fiona Davis:

Oh gosh, there's been so much. There's one called Cost of Living by a relatively new playwright and it's a four-person play. And two of the actors are disabled in real life and on stage. And it's such a beautiful love story and it’s — the Cost of Living, it won the Pulitzer. It's that good.

And so, if it comes to anyone's neighborhood out there, be sure to see it. It's a remarkable piece of writing and acting.

Adam Sockel:

So, that's amazing, and I am absolutely going to check that out. I always end my conversations by asking the author who is joining me for a recommendation of any kind. It can be a book, it can be a specific play like you just gave. What is something that you think more people should know about that perhaps they don't?

Fiona Davis:

Oh, that's a good question. Gosh, gosh, gosh, I would say it's kind of a general one, but check out your regional theater. Because every city usually has a great, great theater. There's the Globe in San Diego, the Alley in Houston, and they do incredible work.

So, if you just want something different from your typical night of Netflix, go see a play at your regional theater because they're the great actors, they're great artistic directors, great designers, and you can really be surprised.

Adam Sockel:

I will say anyone listening in Cleveland, we have the Great Lakes Theater, the Shakespeare Theater Company and famously Tom Hanks used to do that. So, you might be seeing the next Tom Hanks, who knows.

Fiona Davis:

That’s right, exactly.

Adam Sockel:

Oh, well, The Spectacular is exactly that. It is spectacular, it is so wonderful. And like I told you before we started recording, having gotten to do several interviews with you over the years, I was so excited when your name came into my emailing box and this was just a blast. Fiona, thank you so much for joining me today.

[Music Playing]

Fiona Davis:

Thank you, Adam, this was a treat.

Adam Sockel:

Passions & Prologues is proud to be an Evergreen Podcasts and was created by Adam Sockel. It was produced by Adam Sockel and Sean Rule-Hoffman. And if you are interested in this podcast and any other Evergreen Podcasts, you can go to evergreenpodcasts.com to discover all the different stories we have to tell.