How we fall in love with mystery with Chanel Cleeton

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Adam Sockel:

You’re listening to Passions & Prologues, a literary podcast where each week, I interview an author about a thing they love and how it inspires their work. I'm your host, Adam Sockel, and today's guest is Chanel Cleeton, New York Times bestselling author of the new book, The Cuban Heiress.

She also had released previously Next Year in Havana, which was a Reese's Book Club pick. Her books are delightful mysteries, thrillers kind of things that keep you guessing the whole way. And this latest book, The Cuban Heiress, is no different.

It tells the story of a lot of things that happened on a doomed ship that sets sail. And I don't really want to give much more away than that. We talk a little bit about it in the conversation itself, but the thing that I really found fascinating is it is based on a true story of a very specific ship and the things that happened on it.

The crux of this conversation that I had with Chanel is all about her lifelong love of mystery. Sometimes people come on here and talk about very, very out of left field passions of theirs, and sometimes, it's a little bit more specific to their books and it makes a lot of sense when you think about someone who has become a New York Times bestselling mystery writer.

How do you become a bestselling mystery writer? You spend your life diving into those specific stories. So, during this conversation, we get into the first mysteries that Chanel started to read, the books that I read as well as a child that have helped form and shape the reader I have become and so, so much more.

In honor of talking about not only the mysteries that Chanel is writing, but the mysteries of her childhood, I want to give you a book recommendation, a book that I have talked about a lot over the past several years because I just love it so much. It is Meddling Kids by Edgar Cantero.

Many, many people who have read this book, and I am the same, like to describe it as adult Scooby-Doo. And that is because the author, Edgar, has kind of suggested that be a good description of the book himself.

I like to think of it as Scooby-Doo meets H. P. Lovecraft, meet Stephen King's, the It, but in a very kind of fun way, which sounds very, very strange, but it's a story that takes place at the beginning in 1977.

There are four teenagers, and a dog who is a Weimaraner, which I specifically love. If you've been listening to me for any amount of time, you know I have a very old Weimaraner of my own.

But these four teenagers and their dog solve a mystery at this place called Sleepy Lake. And then in 1990, 20-something-year-olds, now all these years later, they have to get back together and try to pick up where they left off and solve a mystery that is very entangled in their own group.

But much like Stephen King's, It, they have to find themselves again and pull themselves out of the depths of some challenging situations before they can get the band back together, as it would mean.

It's so fun, it's so interesting. It's a perfect kind of kickoff to what I call as pre spooky season here in July. The fall is going to come faster than you know it, but I like to start reading some creepy and scary stories and mysteries right around this time of year.

So, if you feel the same way, Meddling Kids by Edgar Cantero is a great book for you, as is The Cuban Heiress by today's guest, Chanel Cleeton. So, definitely check both of those out.

As always, if you want to get ahold of me, you can find me on Instagram and TikTok at Passions & Prologues, and you can email me at [email protected]. I love, love, love hearing all the things you are all passionate about.

Every single month I pick a random person who has sent me an email and I send them a bookshop.org gift card just as a thank you for interacting with the podcast, it really means the world to me.

And one last plea, if you do listen to this episode anytime and you hear this request; if you could just tell one other person about the podcast or leave a review. It helps people find us just a little bit more easily and it really means the world to me.

That is enough housekeeping, I am so excited for you all to hear this conversation with Chanel Cleeton, New York Times bestselling author of The Cuban Heiress on Passions & Prologues.

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Chanel, I am super excited to ask this question: what is something you are super passionate about that we're going to discuss today?

Chanel Cleeton:

So, I am a really big reader, it's definitely one of my lifelong passions. It's probably the defining thing about my personality. So, I especially love reading mysteries. That was something from childhood that has kind of carried me through adulthood.

Adam Sockel:

I love it. So, you said that like kind of discovered a love of mysteries when you were a child. Do you remember the first one or how that came to be?

Chanel Cleeton:

So, definitely, Nancy Drew Mysteries and I remember how exciting it was. And I was a big library reader, so most of my reading came from the library, but it was really cool when my parents would buy me a book.

And I remember the old school yellow spines, like it was such a treat. And so, I still have my original Nancy Drew with the yellow spines, and I don't have the whole collection, but I have the ones that were favorite, and I can still visualize the covers and it was always such a special moment.

Adam Sockel:

So, the second that you said the yellow covers, that is something I haven't thought about in probably decades now at this point. And the second you said it, just vividly I know exactly what you're talking about, like that exact look and feel and it's something I never really thought about, but you're right.

I feel like every book when you're younger, especially books that are series, whether it's like Nancy Drew or Goosebumps, they all have a specific format and I'm vividly remembering that now that you mentioned that. That's wild how brains work.

Chanel Cleeton:

Well, and I will say, I was the kind of kid that I think in the back they would print out all the numbered ones and so I would cross off and keep a list of which ones I'd read, and I had my little reading log going.

And I don't think I read them in order, which now I think it was probably just accessibility. I got what I could at the library, but now I'm like, “Oh, I wish I had read them in order almost because that's kind of how I like to read series now.”

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, like I said, for me, it was Goosebumps was the one that I had … I think by the time I was in middle school, there were like 60 or 70 of them. And same thing, between my friend and I, we had most of them, but obviously, not all of them.

And yeah, same thing, it was like, I would read number 4 and then number 27. Those are all standalone stories, so it wasn't as connected. But you mentioned that it has been a lifelong thing. So, after Nancy Drew, do you remember what came next or what were the things that you started as you got a little bit older? What were the mysteries that you found joy in reading?

Chanel Cleeton:

I read a lot of adult mysteries and I remember being pretty young in reading. Sometimes you read grizzly mystery books, but it was really whatever I could pick up. As I mentioned, I was a really big library reader, so I would just go and spend hours walking around and trying new things.

And I think I loved suspense because I would be so immersed in the story and what was going on, and it felt like you could just disappear for a few hours and try to figure out what was happening, who the perpetrator was. And I really liked, I guess the interesting part of trying to work all that out in my mind.

Adam Sockel:

There's something special, and I remember this, I was also a big library guard. My mom was a teacher for 40 years and books are obviously a huge part of our lives.

And I remember anytime she and I would go to the library or to like Barnes & Noble or different bookstores, there was that incredible … you felt like such an adult when you were a little kid when your mom or your dad would say, “Yeah, go and pick out whatever you want.”

That freedom of browsing the stacks on your own and you thought like, “Yeah, I'm just getting away with something I guess.”

Chanel Cleeton:

Yes, well and I had to say, because you brought up the R.L. Stine thing — so I was pretty much allowed to read anything. My parents were not very kind of like looking at what I was reading, but I was not allowed to read the Fear Street books.

And so, I would sneak them, I would go to sleepovers at my friend's houses that were allowed to read them. And I have vivid memories being at these sleepovers. I feel bad in hindsight for my friends because I wouldn't talk to them. I would just sit and read their Fear Street books. So, when you said that about Goosebumps, that kind of visceral memory came back to me.

Adam Sockel:

You mentioned sneaking, so weirdly, same thing, I wasn't not allowed to read the Fear Street. I just loved the Goosebumps. But actually, years ago, I had the opportunity, I got to meet R.L. Stine at my previous job.

We had set up this interview with him where he was going to talk to our CEO about some stuff and I was talking to him because I got to set it up and I told him that I used to, when I was in fourth and fifth grade, I would put his books in the math or sociology books are we were supposed to be reading.

And so, I told him in person, I was like, “By the way, you're the reason I'm bad at math.” And he's like, “What do you mean?” And I was like, “I used to sneak your books in.” I was like, “So, you're the reason I'm bad at math.”

And he looks at me knowing that I was working for a library company. He’s like, “Yeah but you work in the book industry now, right?” I was like, “Yeah.” And he's like, “You're welcome.” And he just walked away, I got dunked on by R.L. Stine, which is my favorite thing of all time, he was incredible.

So, for me, that's definitely my origin of loving “scary books.” And I feel like I've interviewed so many authors who have told me that they read Stephen King probably before they were supposed to, which is indicative.

But do you remember vividly any of those mystery books that you were reading that were maybe a little bit beyond what you should have been but have stuck in your brain ever since?

Chanel Cleeton:

I remember reading like Tammy Hogue's early mysteries and she had her one of her first series and I cannot remember … I think it was set in Michigan, it was somewhere north. Because I remember the ice and the cold was a really big part of the story, but it was a lot of kid disappearances, and that was scary, I think being a little kid and I was a little kid that kind of had anxiety.

So, reading these mysteries was probably not the best thing for me, but I couldn't put them down like, there was just something so gripping about them, I think. I definitely remember reading those and then probably having a hard time sleeping, being a little bit afraid.

But no, there was just something about the man. I read Mary Higgins Clark, and I think a lot of it too was I would read other people's books. So, if my mom had a book, I would pick that up. And so, that's how I got into more adult mysteries or my grandmother or something.

It was how I found a lot of authors, Robert B. Parker, I remember reading, I was a kid so …

Adam Sockel:

I don't know if this is the same for you, so I read widely … when I was younger obviously read a lot of young adults, but I always read really widely. And then because of working at a library company obviously, and then interviewing authors, I read widely as well.

But I remember, I don’t know if it was college, but I hadn't really read many Agatha Christie books, but I remember then picking those up when I was in my twenties and just being blown away at how these books that are … however old they are, a century old, even older, whatever it is at this point.

And how they could still surprise me, and that was kind of like my later in life gateway to wanting to read mysteries. It sounds like you pretty consistently read mystery books, but what are some of the ones that as you became an adult, do you find yourself trying to seek out the books that can shock you with their twists? Or I guess what is it for you that keeps you wanting to go back to mystery books?

Chanel Cleeton:

So, what I really love in mysteries now is I love really atmospheric ones. So, Tana French is a huge favorite of mine. I love her Dublin murder squad books, because I feel like she really just immerses you in the setting. I feel like I'm in Ireland, I feel like I'm walking the streets with these detectives as they're going through the mysteries.

And I think it goes back to what I was mentioning earlier, is that feeling of an ultimate escape. She really just transports you and you’re completely sucked in by the book. And I love a book that unfurls, maybe not slowly, but just very kind of like it envelops you, and that you want to stay up late reading because you're just so caught up in it. And that's what I love about her books.

Jane Harper is another favorite. She writes really gorgeous Australian set mysteries. I just read her latest and I think it's such a challenge as an author, I appreciate this, and as a reader I'm so grateful for it.

It's so hard when you write 8 or 10 books to have every single book be like a touchdown. And for the readers to be like, “Oh my goodness, this is amazing.” And that's what I love so much about some of my favorites, is consistently I'm just like, “Oh these are such phenomenal books.” So, those are definitely two that I really love.

Adam Sockel:

Do you find, as someone who writes books that do have an Arab mystery to them — do you find yourself needing to separate your writing from the books you're reading? Do you feel like there's a pressure for you beyond just the pressure of having a lot of readers at this point who are expecting great stories.

But do you feel like there's pressure to want to write a mystery that's up to a standards that you would want to read as a reader? Or are you able to kind of separate those two things?

Chanel Cleeton:

So, I think my favorite authors are the ones that make me forget I'm a writer when I'm reading. And that's what I'll say, I think kind of when I was talking about the immersive quality of Tana French or like a Jane Harper is when I read their books, my writer brain completely shuts off and I am I guess like the little kid reading mysteries again.

Like that passion really comes through for me. Because I'll be honest, as a writer, it is hard when you're reading — and I get this when I watch TV too, sometimes your brain will go into writer mode, and you'll analyze the plot, or the character decisions, and it can cut away from the enjoyment to some extent because it's a different way of enjoying the medium.

But I feel when I'm so immersed in a story that I'm just like a fan girl again, I love that part. And that's what so many writers do all. Alyssa Cole’s one of my favorites, she wrote When No One Is Watching, and that was phenomenal.

And that was one of those books that for me, the measure is always like, “Did I read this in one sitting,” because I just couldn't stop what I was doing and it's like 3:00 AM, then I'm like, “Okay, I have to go to bed.” And those are the books that have really done that for me.

And for me as a writer, I think I just kind of — writing is a very creative outlet for me. I'm not a particularly creative person when we talked to the beginning, I was like, “I don't have a lot of your really cool passions outside of books to be honest.”

And so, this is my one sort of safe space where I can just explore when I want to write and feel that freedom. And so, I try not to have too much pressure to try to be at a standard or write like someone. I just try to be myself and put what I want to say out on the page.

And then obviously, in edits, those are always the times when you kind of … ding dings up and that those first drafts, I feel like are really the kind of free space to just explore the story and the direction that your characters are leading you in.

Adam Sockel:

We mentioned before we started recording, that I talked to Lisa Scottoline recently and she joked with me on her episode that she has no idea what chapter two is going to be while she's writing chapter one, and she just kind of makes it up on the fly.

She actually told me that she needs to remind herself every book that she actually knows what she's doing, which is very funny thinking about someone who's written 35 books.

But for someone who writes mysteries, people are so — I don't like when people think this, but there's so many readers who determine if they like the mystery or not based on the twist or the surprise.

So, when you are writing, are you thinking in advance? Do you plan that stuff out or are you like I'll get to the shocking reveal or whatever it is when you get to it?

Chanel Cleeton:

So, that is a great question and that's something actually — so I will be asked; probably this is where my reading influences my writing. I actually feel really strongly about twist and reveals. So, I have a similar process to what Lisa was saying where I don't plot a ton before I start my stories.

I'm very much kind of what we call a penser, and that the plot develops organically as I'm writing and as my character leads me in the direction. But one thing that is really important to me, and this comes from me being a reader, is I always want to make sure my twists feel realistic.

As a reader that is my biggest frustration probably when I'm reading a book and you get a twist that you're like, “Wait, what?” It's not quite something that really fits the book, and you feel like it's maybe in there for more shock value.

And so, that's something I always try to be very cognizant of with my readers. I feel like we are developing a relationship as the book goes on and I want to make sure that if there is a twist, there are enough clues in the book that the twist doesn't feel like it's coming out of nowhere and they can go back and be like, “Oh my goodness, I didn't realize how these things are connected.”

Because at the end of the day, I think when we read suspense, we all want to feel like we're the detective, like we're solving the mystery alongside the main character. And so, it's for me, important to lay that groundwork and have readers feel like they can be part of it and have some agency in figuring out who did it.

Adam Sockel:

That is such an incredible way of saying how we as a reader feel like we're the detective alongside them. Because for so long, I've thought about this as like I love literary fiction. One something I always say on the podcast is I love small stories with big emotions.

So, I very much love books that are about families and relationships. And for literary fiction, the entire book can be a beautiful story and if it ends the way that maybe I don't agree with or didn't like, it doesn't ruin the experience for me.

But if I'm reading a mystery (and I know some other people are like this too), if the whole book is keeping them on the edge of their seat, but then like the whodunit or like the big reveal at the kind of sucks, they're like, “Ah, I hated this book.”

And it really is, I think you're right. I think it's because there's this expectation because we're seeing it through the eyes of the investigator or uncovering stuff as we go, that it's like if these things don't add up, then the whole book is ruined for people.

I've always wondered why people will say they didn't like a mystery book specifically because of the ending, but I think you kind of nailed it.

Chanel Cleeton:

Well, and I'll be honest, I am very flexible kind of on endings because I know some people feel very strongly about mysteries and Tana French, her first book is a great example.

I don't want to spoil, but the way she resolves things, it's kind of a changer for the genre. She did it differently and I loved that about the book, and I know everyone has their own feelings on, if they want a nice neat resolution or if they like things to be a little bit more open-ended or unresolved.

For me, it's like if you hook me in the book, I'll stay with you to the end, even if maybe I don't get that neat resolution, I'm perfectly okay with that.

Adam Sockel:

And I think that's probably the healthy way to approach a book. I’d say the author, I don't assume you're one of those people who would go on Goodreads be like, “This is a one-star book because of the ending.” Yeah, don't be one of those people.

So, your new book, The Cuban Heiress just came out at the time we're recording this, literally two days after the book came out. Now, we were joking beforehand, this is your, as I call it like your media car wash day.

One of, I think you said 12 interviews you're doing. So, it's early in the day, so hopefully, this won't be too boring for you to kind of present, but can you give us the elevator pitch of the books, so people know what they're getting into?

Chanel Cleeton:

Sure. No, this is one of the best parts. I will warn, my voice’s going a little bit. So, sorry if I have a little bit of a voice break. But no, this is one of the awesome parts of the job. We spend so much time at your computer by yourself that I love talking about books.

So, The Cuban Heiress is set in 1934, and it's set on a luxury cruise ship, and it was a real ship. It was called the SS Morro Castle, and it would do a round trip voyage from New York to Havana.

And so, on its last trip, tragically, a fire broke out and there's a lot of mystery surrounding the fire, sort of trying to understand the fire's origins. It's still kind of unsettled what happened. And so, I really found it to be an interesting setting to take my fictional characters, Elena and Catherine, and put them aboard this ship.

Adam Sockel:

And I know that a lot of the books you write, you have an interest in — having grown up in Florida and having Cuban heritage, there's a lot of that. I know that you like to examine in your writing, but what was it about this particular the cruise ship and the tragic story about it that drew you to want to make it a setting for your story?

Chanel Cleeton:

I was really fascinated by the fact that it was a moment in history that I was less familiar with. As a Cuban American, I really have a passion for learning more about my heritage and going back in time and looking at earlier periods in Cuban history.

And so, I was really fascinated by the ship, the fact that I was not as familiar with it and just all of the natural mystery surrounding it. The captain actually died under mysterious circumstances the night that the fire broke out.

So, it was one of those situations where real life really was as interesting as fiction in terms of all of these components. You have The Great Depression going on, you have The Cuban Revolution of 1933, which has just ended, and then the recent end of prohibition.

So, it really was kind of a tender box where there were a lot of tensions bubbling to the surface on this confined space of the ship.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, and having researched the real story itself, like you said, it’s almost like it's something I hadn't heard about before. I saw your book come out and I looked it up and you're right. It's something that I also —it's a pretty big tragedy for something I really did not know anything about it.

It's like one of those things where it makes me think about all the things you can mine in history to find these stories that are just waiting to be uncovered. And I also feel like there's … and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but like I love the idea of when books are set on ships or it's the same thing, why if you read any horror stories set in space, it's set on the ship.

I love the fact that you can't escape, you can't get anywhere. It's one of these things like Murder on the Orient Express to talk about Agatha Christie and there's nowhere you can go.

So, for you when you have a story like that where there's really going to be one specific setting, do you have to work harder as an author to write a story that keeps the plot moving along? Or are you able to take advantage of there being one specific location?

Chanel Cleeton:

I think it definitely has advantages and disadvantages. Yeah, that's a great way that you kind of put it where on the one hand, you are dealing with a limited setting, but on the other, that setting really almost acts as a plot point because it is a restriction for your characters. It's kind of the locked room of mystery.

And so, it was really fascinating for me. I had not written a book that was in such a confined space. And so, as a writer, it was a new challenge and kind of a new mystery for me to be able to work with and like a puzzle where I would put all the pieces together to see how it fit in.

So, I really enjoyed that part of it, that was probably one of my favorite things. And having written historical fiction, each book I kind of add a little bit more suspense, but this is definitely the one that has the most mystery for me. And so, I really got to use that passion that I have as a reader and put it into the book and that was so much fun.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, I love that so much. I want to keep asking you questions, but I guess this is the day you're doing a million different things.

So, I have one more question for you. I end every episode by asking authors for a recommendation of any kind. It can be a book, or it can be a TV show or a recipe you like, basically just one thing that you recommend that you want more people to know about.

And again, it can be a book, we've been talking about books all the time, so that's totally fine. But what's something that you want to recommend to my listeners?

Chanel Cleeton:

So, since we're talking about mysteries, I will plug Only Murders in the Building, which is a show on Hulu that I absolutely love. And we're talking about confined spaces and it's mystery shows that in this luxury apartment building in New York and I can't recommend it enough. It's so much fun and just a really great show to watch.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, I will co-sign that recommendation, it is a delightful show. Chanel, you have been so much fun. This is so, so wonderful and the book is so thrilling. People are going to absolutely love The Cuban Heiress, thank you so much for joining me today.

Chanel Cleeton:

Thank you so much for having me and sorry for this late voice bobble but thank you very much, I appreciate it.

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Adam Sockel:

Passions & Prologues is proud to be an Evergreen podcast, and was created by Adam Sockel. It was produced by Adam Sockel and Sean Rule-Hoffman. And if you are interested in this podcast and any other Evergreen podcast, you can go to evergreenpodcasts.com to discover all the different stories we have to tell.