Livin' in the Viking Age with Genevieve Gornichec

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Adam Sockel:

You are listening to Passions & Prologues, a literary podcast. For each week, I'll interview an author about a thing they love and how it inspires their work. I'm your host Adam Sockel, and today's guest is Genevieve Gornichec.

I met Genevieve when her first book, The Witch's Heart, came out and became a New York Times bestseller. It's an incredible story about a little-known aspect of Viking mythology and Norse mythology that I had never heard of, and it became one of my favorite books of the year that it came out.

She has a new book out called The Weaver and the Witch Queen, where she's once again found a really interesting piece of Viking age history and turned it into an incredible novel.

So, that may not surprise you when I tell you that her passion is all about the Viking Age, but I'm going to let her talk about exactly what aspects of the Viking Age her deep passion is for.

It's such an interesting conversation. It's so much fun. It was so great to catch up with Genevieve. And she also might be the person who is closest to me geographically. We once again realized when we were discussing this particular book that we live like 20 minutes away from each other, which was very, very fun. Nothing like doing a Zoom meeting with someone who you definitely could have just gone to see in person, but that's another story for another time.

Love this conversation. I'm so excited for The Weaver and the Witch Queen. And before I get into talking or before I get into letting you guys take a listen to that conversation, I want to give you another book recommendation. And then also just get into some quick emails that I got, that I really, really loved.

So, my book recommendation is Warrior of the Wild by Tricia Levenseller. Doing a little theme here. This was Tricia Levenseller’s young adult Viking inspired standalone fantasy. Really great stuff. It is the story of an 18-year-old daughter of the chief of a particular tribe who has to find a way to kill the oppressive deity that has basically ravaged their homeland for years and years and years if she ever wants to return to their village.

Tricia has written The Daughter of the Pirate King Books, which I just adored. Everything she writes is so fun and approachable and fantastic. Highly, highly recommend checking out anything she's written. But if you liked this conversation, check out Warrior of the Wild. That's Tricia's Viking book that I think you'll enjoy.

As always, you can always reach me at [email protected] or you can find me on TikTok and Instagram at Passions & Prologues.

I want to say a quick thank you to Vanessa, who's one of the people who wrote in to me not only for sharing their passion, which I really, really loved, but also, she sent me a recipe for a mochi stuffed miso chocolate chip cookie. I haven't made them yet, but I am going to. But that was based off the conversation I had with Jude Atwood a few weeks ago, all about baking.

So, if you miss that episode, check it out. Jude talks about all of the wonderful things he loves to bake, and I will give you guys a full review of Vanessa's mochi stuffed miso chocolate chip cookies when I finally do make them. Really, really excited about that.

As always, for anyone who reaches out to me, lets me know their passions or ask for book recommendations. Anyone who emails me, I randomly give away one bookshop.org gift card every single month. So, if you want to shoot me a message to say hi, need me a review, whatever it is you want to do you'll be “Entered into one of those.”

So, that is just about everything. I'm not going to keep you any longer. I am so, so, so excited for you all to hear this conversation with Genevieve Gornichec, author of The Weaver and the Witch Queen on Passions & Prologues.

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Okay, Genevieve, what is something you are super passionate about that we're going to be discussing today?

Genevieve Gornichec:

So, I have been doing Viking Age Living history for the past almost nine years. And that is something that with the season kind of ramping up, that is something that I would love to talk about today.

Adam Sockel:

Yes. So, right before we started recording, we were joking how we like, briefly touched on this the last time we talked. Genevieve and I talked literally like three years ago when her first book, The Witch’s Heart came out. And we briefly touched on this, and I was really hoping this was going to be your topic. So, for my listeners, can you kind of walk through how you came to discover this passion of yours?

Genevieve Gornichec:

So, I will make a long story as short as possible. What had happened was, I was in college studying the Viking Age and such, and I had applied for a graduate school at the University of Iceland, and I got into my dream graduate program. And then I couldn't go for a number of reasons, but the big one was financial.

And so, I was really sad, I was heartbroken, and I decided that I was just going to go buy a Viking kit off the internet, and just go to my local medieval fair and just be like, “This is going to make me feel better about not going to graduate school.”

So, as I'm walking around this festival, I keep like having people come into me like — sorry. Wow. Can you cut that? That was a bad, that was a bad-

Adam Sockel:

I sure can.

Genevieve Gornichec:

Verbal typo. I kept having people come up to me and saying things like, “Oh, are you with that group?” “Oh, are you with that guy's group?” “Are you with this?” I'm like, “I'm not with the group. There's a group? What group is there?”

And finally, I just happened to pass them and they came after me and were like, “Hey, do you want to join our Viking group? We like your outfit.” And that was it. That was the end of it or the beginning of the end, I should say.

Adam Sockel:

So, you kind of mentioned going to like Medieval fairs or, I know a lot of people know Renaissance fairs where like, there's the … I actually heard, I don't remember what podcast I was listening to, but they had one of the critical role people on, and he was talking about how he goes to run fairs in two different ways.

One is with his family dressed up and having the full experience. And the other version is he goes with his friends and does not dress up and just gets hammered.

And so, I'm curious from the Viking standpoint, what is different for people who might not know between Renaissance fair and Medieval Fair and different things? What would be the difference between what you do and a Renaissance fair?

Genevieve Gornichec:

So, living history is more like trying to reconstruct a way of life or a craft or if in some cases like combat skills. We're basically like trying to be as authentic as we can possibly be, like in regards to the time period. Whereas like Medieval fair and Renaissance fairs, you can do whatever you want.

It's in more power to you, they're just fun and they're not so focused on historical authenticity, like you could be. You could dress up as Ragnar from Vikings and be a super awesome fantasy Viking and that's awesome.

I've gone to Medieval fair in my Viking kit, and it’s, I feel a little bit boring, but it's also a lot more comfortable than a corset or some of the other things that I could be wearing, which like I do have like a whole Renaissance fair getup just because like, that's where I got my start doing this. So, I do love me a Renaissance festival but they're a little bit different than living history events.

Adam Sockel:

So, what is entailed in a living history event? Like, kind of take people through the experience and the activities and different things that you're doing throughout that process.

Genevieve Gornichec:

So, at the main living history event that I go to once or twice a year it's on a private property, there's public hours for a couple hours on one of the days, but the rest of the time we're kind of just left to our own devices.

There's a section for modern camping, but it's mostly primitive camping, just with your Viking tents, no technology, no running water, which like, that kind of sucks. But basically, it's really nice to just unplug and just be out there in the middle of nowhere. Like just you and a tent and like whatever.

For me it's like I'll work on my crafts, like I do tablet weaving, which was a way that they could have made decorative trim for clothing. And like a lot of people do combat. So, there's combat training a couple times.

Cooking is a big one, my group really, really loves to cook. And there's like an auction sometimes for the site just to raise the funds, like to maintain the site. And it's just all — I don't know, it's just like it's a weekend getaway, but like with none of the things that you would expect.

Adam Sockel:

Are these sites, are they places that are kind of open year-round and you just pick when you are going? Or do they have kind of special events or weekends?

Genevieve Gornichec:

They have events and weekends because a lot of the times they are on somebody's private property. So, it's not open like year-round. It's just, “Oh, we're going to prep the site for this event, now the event, and then we're going to tear it down.” So yeah.

Adam Sockel:

Can you talk to me about the cooking a little bit? I'm super interested.

Genevieve Gornichec:

Yes, yes. So, we cook over fires like just in cauldrons, like exactly how you would expect stew. Stew that has been cooking over campfire for like hours and you keep having to add water because the water cooks out. It's the best. And I had never been regular camping before I started doing Viking reenactment.

I'm kind of like waffling between saying reenactment and living history. For some people they're interchangeable, but reenactment is more like I say reenactment because it's like, it's shorter and it's easier. Reenactment is more like Civil War, World War II reenactment where you're actually like reenacting a specific thing and not just kind of like living in the moment vibing as like, dressed in flax linen and stirring the cauldron over a campfire.

Adam Sockel:

Something I'm super interested in is, like you said, and I know this from our previous conversations, like the kind of like Viking era and that history you have studied. Like you said you were trying to go to a graduate school for these types of things. There's a difference between people though, who like are historians of something versus you want to go and kind of have these lived experiences.

So, for you, what do you like — get out of sounds reductive, but like, what is it that keeps you kind of going back to these experiences beyond just having a fascination with that historical time period?

Genevieve Gornichec:

Honestly, not only is it kind of like fodder for writing, but it's nice to get those like hands-on experiences that I'm writing about. And as well as the people, honestly, like, I have found this amazing community of humans who also like to dress in flax linen and go, live off the grid for four days in a tent with no running water.

But yeah, like I came into this hobby with like a lot of background on like the myths and legends and the culture, but as far as like material culture and hands-on experience, I had a lot to learn.

And the fact that I keep learning. There's so many knowledgeable people in this hobby too, that it's just great to just sit around a campfire and just be like, “Let's talk about the most recent archeological find at this site.”

I have friends who are potters who replicate historically accurate stuff and people who do blacksmithing and weaving and all kinds of stuff. It's just an amazing community of very talented, very passionate people.

Adam Sockel:

That's amazing. Are there things maybe you weren't expecting to learn that you have learned throughout this process? Because like you said, obviously going to these experiences you probably did expect to learn, like you said, like the pottery or the cooking or things. But have there been unexpected discoveries that you've come across?

Genevieve Gornichec:

Yeah, I feel like I learned something new every time, either from somebody else or just doing things myself. One of the biggest things I learned actually helped me with The Witch's Heart, which is that if you google Viking women, you'll get pictures of women in the tortoise broaches and the beads and all decked out.

But that kind of thing is not practical. I don't think your everyday person would've been wearing all of that stuff. And you figure like we have these burial fines that have their people totally decked out with all kinds of stuff, but you figure they were buried in their best, they weren't doing housework in all of this stuff.

So, when I was revising The Witch’s Heart, I actually revised the main character Angrboda, like out of her, like, all the stuff that she was wearing and just put her in a plain dress. Like, because who would she be trying to impress? She'd just be working all day.

So, stuff like that, that I just did not expect to learn that and it actually helped me improve my craft and my story.

Adam Sockel:

Honestly, that's so interesting because you're thinking about The Witch's Heart, like you said, like Angrboda like for so much of that book and like the myth that surrounds like, she's by herself. She's not going to be like you said, decked out in these closing and like you said about like the show Vikings, which I also love.

But to say that their braids and their hair probably aren't historically accurate, it'd be an understatement. It’s so elaborate what they have, it's like they're not going to take time to do all that when they have all of this other stuff they actually have to get done.

Genevieve Gornichec:

Right. If you were a fancy queen and had handmaidens to do your hair maybe. I mean they were super well groomed. Combs are a very, very common grave find, but like yeah. The time it would take to do those braids and stuff, if you were just a working person, it's ponytail and then done.

Adam Sockel:

I love watching Vikings and seeing the perfect under shave and like perfect braid and I'm like “So, in between these two scenes, who did this hair for you?” Like what-

Genevieve Gornichec:

Right. A hundred percent.

Adam Sockel:

So, you kind of mentioned, this is sort of like fodder for your writing. So, I guess obviously the stories you write, and we'll get to the new book in just a second, but obviously those are based on Norse mythology and like Viking history and things.

But beyond just the clothing and aspects like that, what are some other things you've taken away from these experiences that you have folded into your writing?

Genevieve Gornichec:

Honestly, a lot of it, like, the comradery among the people who fight because combat is not my specialty. I did my best with the fight scenes in the new book, but I don't know, just like getting to know the people and how they act towards each other and the respect.

And you get like a lot of like guys, who love Vikings, but like I've met so many like genuinely good dudes through this hobby and like I was able to be like, “Yeah, that is what I want my people acting like, just like.”

Granted, granted. The Vikings, the ones who went a Viking, I should say, went raiding these pretty terrible things. So, that was also an interesting balance. Like, the guys I know aren't going up and killing everybody and like taking their stuff.

So, how do I balance? Like, “Okay, we want to make these guys likable, but they also kill people and take their stuff.” Sorry, I don't think I actually answered your question. I'm sorry.

Adam Sockel:

No, no, no, that's okay. So, I have one last question before we get into The Weaver and the Witch Queen, your new book. But I guess to go all the way back, what was it that, like, you first found this love of like the Viking age and that specific history.

Obviously, you've been studying it for such a long time now, but do you remember what it was that first kind of caught your attention about these people and this time period in all of this history?

Genevieve Gornichec:

Yes. I took an old Norse language class in January, 2011. I had just gotten back from studying abroad in Sweden on a scholarship because this was during the recession. And so, I came back actually early because I couldn't afford to live over there anymore. So, my scholarship ran out and I was like, “Oh man, I'm going to do a Scandinavian studies minor because I just got back from Sweden.”

So, the first class that was available was the Old Norse language and that class literally changed my life. The first thing we translated was the short passage of Loki giving birth to a horse. And I just had this moment where I was like, “Gosh, this is weird, I love it, like I'm in.”

And then the rest was history. I had read the Norse Myths as a kid, but I forgot how weird they were and how fun and how sometimes terrible. Honestly, I credit that class and that professor with why I'm like this.

Adam Sockel:

I will say for people who have not read actual Norse Myths and what you know is either from Marvel or stuff like that. It is akin to like, Disney fairy tales versus real fairy fairytales, the Norse Myths are so weird and so fantastical and so dark and strange.

Genevieve Gornichec:

Yes. They’re brutal.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. So, along those lines, speaking of Norse Myths, can you kind of give an introduction to your new book and maybe a little bit about where the story is based from in history?

Genevieve Gornichec:

Yes. So, my new book is called The Weaver and the Witch Queen. It releases July 25th. And it's an origin story for Gunnhild's Mother of Kings who was the wife of the second king of Norway, Eric Bloodaxe.

And Gunnhild is just like a fascinating character in the sagas. And when I say the sagas, I mean, they're kind of written to be more histories rather than myths, but they're still at their heart historical fan fictions.

The Icelandic sagas in particular which I relied pretty heavily on one of them along with this compilation of king sagas called Heimskringla by Snorri Sturluson. But the Icelandic sagas themselves are anonymous and they tell the stories of Icelander settling Iceland in the Viking Age, or I should say Norwegians settling Iceland and becoming Icelanders and the generations of families.

And you have real life stuff like farmers fighting over cattle or sheep graze … not cattle, sheep grazing rights, like suing each other at the Althing and all kinds of that stuff.

And you also have hauntings and zombies and ghosts and all these fantastical things happening. So, some of the more realistic ones are really, they fool you into thinking that they’re history because they sound like it, but then you see the other ones literally have a ghost seal poking its head through the floor and all kinds of just weird, crazy stuff.

So, that was my basis for Gunnhild story and as you can probably imagine, it was all too easy to make it into a historical fantasy from there.

Adam Sockel:

So, what was it, having such a breadth of knowledge about all of these stories, these myths, what was it about this particular story? We talked with the first book coming out about Angrboda how it was sort of like, a person who there wasn't much told about, and it was such a fascinating character, but there was so little about her.

What is it about this particular story that you're like, “Oh, I want to unpack that more and I want to weave my own story out of that?”

Genevieve Gornichec:

So, Gunnhild herself for a woman, she does a lot in these sagas, which are mostly concerned with men and what men are doing. And there are women here and there who are fierce and amazing and hit people in the face with bags of silver and are very sassy.

And Gunnhild is kind of like, she's a little bit vilified. She's usually the opponent in all, but I think one of the sagas, she's kind of like the opponent of whatever our Icelandic protagonist is this time. And I just thought, “You know what she needs, she needs a best friend.” And so, I gave her two.

And these sagas do not pass the so-called test of the Bechdel test, I think.

Adam Sockel:

Bechdel test, yeah.

Genevieve Gornichec:

I know that's not like … I don't know, I know people have opinions on it, but we never see two women in the sagas talking to each other about something other than men. Actually, I don't think at all that I can remember.

So, really, I just wanted to tell the side of the story that we don't get in the sagas and like I said, give Gunnhild some friends and give her kind of — she comes off as being very vindictive and needlessly, like, I don't know what the word I'm looking for, I guess vindictive is the word. She's very proud, she's very petty.

And I hope that people who are familiar with the source material will read The Weaver and the Witch Queen and be like, “Ah, she definitely grows up to be that person that I've read about in the other stories.”

Adam Sockel:

You mentioned kind of adding in new characters and different things. I guess how close do you want to keep yourself to the original source material and things like this, because obviously, like you said, it's based off of a myth anyway, but how much do you allow yourself to kind of take liberties and like you said, adding characters and things like that?

Genevieve Gornichec:

That is something that I've always struggled with because I am such a stickler for like, “Got to keep to the story.”

But so, I really went out of my comfort zone here and did a lot of stuff. So, unlike with The Witch's Heart where I was like, “This could plausibly be happening in the background.” In The Weaver and the Witch Queen, I was kind of like, “Yeah, I fudged some stuff,” but I will say it is no less than the saga authors do.

Because one of the sagas that I used as my source for Weaver, which was Ale Saga, it literally puts the protagonists at places that they could not possibly be, at times that they could not possibly have been there.

They have a really famous battle happening during one character's lifetime when it really didn't happen until, I think like 20 years later or something. Because the author really wanted this character to die at this battle, but that battle hadn't happened yet.

So, I don't go that far. I still like to have some continuity, especially with the sources conflicting all the time. I kind of had to pick and choose which ones I was actually going to use as my basis.

But I guess I had to sit there and think like what would serve the story and could I like fit it within like a reasonable amount of suspension of disbelief when it comes to how it will conflict with my sources that I'm using.

Adam Sockel:

Well, then also I have to imagine, you said, from the sources you're using and like having that be a jumping off point and sort of like a skeleton of the story. I imagine you still do want to come up with your own like plot twists and endings and things like that, you don't want it to be like formulaic. You want it to be your own wholly original story.

Genevieve Gornichec:

Right. And I don't want to rewrite the saga beat for beat.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, exactly.

Genevieve Gornichec:

Yeah.

Adam Sockel:

So, I am curious, and maybe this doesn't happen at all, but the people that you go and do kind of the historical living and the enactments and like everything, do they know that you are writing about these things as a living now?

Genevieve Gornichec:

Oh yes. They all are aware. Yes, and I think that they are very proud. I've gotten some really good like connections and feedback when I do meet up with my friends at these events, especially now that I'm back in Ohio and I see people, I'm seeing people for the first time since the book came out. And they're like, “Oh my God, your book.”

One of my friends, he's like listening to the audio books for the third time. I'm like, “What? What? You mean my words?”

And I've had a couple, a friend or two in reenactment read an ARC of Weaver and my one friend was like, “I see so many of us,” I'm not taking people and like putting them in the book, but she's like, “I see characteristics of so many of our friends just put in here and it's so much fun.”

Adam Sockel:

That has to be so amazing. That has to be such a cool to have your tribe or found family, or everyone call your friends, to have these people and to have them be that excited and like see it and then things like that. Just that makes me so happy, and I remember talking before the first book came out and it was literally when we did our interview, it was like months before, and for people we-

Genevieve Gornichec:

We were on lockdown.

Adam Sockel:

We were on lockdown yeah, I know. And Genevieve and I were joking, we're actually recording. I'm not going to give specific places, but we are literally 20 minutes away from each other right now doing this via Zoom.

But I remember, I don't know, I just remember you talking about it and just being like, “Yeah, I hope it finds an audience.” And Genevieve was being very modest, it was a national bestseller. It's an incredible book-

Genevieve Gornichec:

Thank you.

Adam Sockel:

So, amazing. And I don't know, to me it's so cool. I feel like authors a lot of times will write us a story and if it becomes popular, like yes, they have lots of fans. But they don't get to do what you're doing, which is like have these interactions where there's these shared experiences that are somewhat interconnected to the story itself with your friends. I don't know, this isn't even a question, it just has to be such a cool experience.

Genevieve Gornichec:

It is really cool. And also, the same friend was like, “Well that's why you wanted to use some of my duck silk from Oseberg find.” And I was like, “Yeah, because I kind of wrote it into the book.” At 1.1 of characters wears a dress with the duck pattern silk on it, which is historically plausible, but yeah, she was very amused by that.

And it's been a lot of fun. Weaver though, I will say it's more of like an adventure, there's a lot more stuff happening in it. Whereas The Witch's Heart is the woman sitting in a cave for most of the book.

Adam Sockel:

But it's, so okay. You're being modest now. Yes, she's sitting in the cave for most of the book and yes, it's like, what is it? Thousands of years, hundreds of years. I'm trying — it’s like-

Genevieve Gornichec:

A lot of years.

Adam Sockel:

It’s a lot of years.

Genevieve Gornichec:

It’s a lot of time.

Adam Sockel:

But it's so interesting and so fast, you're being very modest. I have one more question about the book real quick. For people who have not seen the cover is so cool on the new book. Did you have any-

Genevieve Gornichec:

Weaver?

Adam Sockel:

For Weaver, yeah. It literally looks like it is woven together. I know most people don't usually, but did you have any say in how that turned out?

Genevieve Gornichec:

I had input. I was asked again like what I want and didn't want, and I said, “Here's what I want, here's what I don't want.” I'm like, “If you're going to be really detailed on the costuming, I probably will have something to say about it.” So, I think that's why they went a little bit more simple, but I think they knocked it out of the park again.

Adam Sockel:

It's so cool, obviously the book link will be in the show notes. It's so striking because it literally looks like it is woven together. I propose nothing, it’s just, I wanted to give that a shout out too.

I always end every conversation by having the author who comes on do a recommendation of any kind. It can be a book, it can be, I've had people say, “Go for a walk.” I've had people say like, “Bake this specific pie.”

What is just something you want to recommend to my listeners that you think more people should know about?

Genevieve Gornichec:

I will never shut up about Dark Water Daughter by H.M. Long. It's a book coming out I think July 11th, so a couple weeks before Weaver. It is a flintlock fantasy, a pirates adventure.

So, if you want Pirates of the Caribbean, but make it winter, that's what this book is. The magic system is super unique. I was a big fan and I've read this author's other works like she debuted the same year I did with her Hall of Smoke series.

This is part of a different series, and it is phenomenal, and I can't wait to buy the audio book because I read an ARC, but I'm going to listen to the audio book because I really like the narrators.

And literally in the author's TikTok, she posted like, “If you like Commodore Norrington all grimed up from the second Pirates movie, if this is your thing, you're going to like this book.” And co-signed, retweet, hundred percent. So, I really liked it and so I'm recommending it to everybody if you like fantasy and pirates.

Adam Sockel:

Just if someone says, “Hey, this is a book about Vikings.” I'm like, “Say less, I'm good, I'm going to read it.” Same thing with Pirate. I'm like you, anything like piratey. I'm just like, “Yes, give me that, that sounds amazing.”

Genevieve Gornichec:

Yep. I’m in.

Adam Sockel:

Oh, that’s fantastic. Well, Genevieve, like I told you before we started recording, I was so excited when your name came across my email. I remember like, this is one of my favorite types of conversations to have with someone I got to talk to years ago. So, it was an absolute blast. Thank you so much for joining me today.

[Music playing]

Genevieve Gornichec:

Thank you.

Adam Sockel:

Passions & Prologues is proud to be an Evergreen Podcast and was created by Adam Sockel. It was produced by Adam Sockel and Sean Rule-Hoffman, and if you are interested in this podcast and any other Evergreen Podcast, you can go to evergreenpodcasts.com to discover all the different stories we have to tell.