Lyrical storytelling with Nick Brooks

Adam Sockel:

You are listening to Passions and Prologues, a literary podcast. For each week, I'll interview an author about a thing they love and how it inspires their work. I'm your host Adam Sockel, and if this is your first time listening in, thanks for being here. If you've been here for a while now, thanks for coming back.

Today's episode is with Nick Brooks, whose new young adult novel, Promise Boys has generated buzz and buzz and buzz. It is being compared to the likes of Angie Thomas, Jason Reynolds, and Karen McManus.

It sparked a massive bidding war amongst publishers and led to a seven-figure publishing deal. We talk all about Promise Boys and the racial stereotypes and systemic oppression that it discusses within the book. But during this conversation, we also start by talking about Nick's deeply held passion for hip hop.

Nick is a writer, of course. He is also a film director. He's an actor, and he also is a hip hop artist. He's very much a renaissance man.

We talk about how when he grew up, he fell in love with hip hop music, specifically through the lyrics and the way that storytelling could be conveyed through those lyrics. And he talks about the different albums he loved growing up and how they affected the way that he writes dialogue, and how he lays out scenes because of the type of music that he listens to. And then all these different things.

We also talk about the different ways that he looks at storytelling, again, as a hip hop artist, a writer, a director, and talking about when he gets a story idea and determining what type of medium to convey that story. And it's really, really interesting, really, really fascinating. And yeah, I think you're really, really going to love it.

And Promise Boys, his new book is absolutely just a dynamo. It is everywhere right now. Highly recommend going to check it out, if you haven't gotten your copy yet, it just came out last week.

As a book recommendation to kind of pair with it, which I like to do every single week, if you have never read Solo by Kwame Alexander and Mary Rand Hess, I highly recommend this. And the reason that I wanted to recommend this one today, it’s the story of this young kid named Blade, who's the son of a very famous washed up rockstar, who's a drug addict.

And it tells the story of his relationship with his father and how he wants to be nothing like him. And the girl that he's trying to date, whose parents basically want to keep them apart because they expect this young guy to become just like his drug addicted father.

But the reason I want to focus on it is Kwame and Mary wrote this in verse, so it's very lyrical and I think it really pairs really well with Promise Boys.

So, Solo is phenomenal, and Kwame Alexander is just an awesome person and an incredible author. So, I highly recommend checking that out if you haven't yet, as well.

If you want to get a hold of me, you can always reach me at [email protected]. Every single month, I give out a free bookshop.org gift card to people who send me their passions. I just love reading what you guys are passionate about. And I'll pick one of those at random at the end of the month.

And also, if you leave me a rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts, send me a screenshot of that at [email protected]. I'll give you some customized book recommendations.

You can also find me on Instagram and TikTok at Passions and Prologues where I do book reviews and just literary conversations all the time.

Also, I do want to give a quick heads up, I got a very special bonus episode coming this week for you guys on the weekend. So, if you're looking for some things to add to your TBR list, definitely check out that episode. So, it'll be right where all of the other episodes show up in your podcast app.

Okay, that is all the housekeeping. I am so excited to say, I hope you enjoy this discussion with Nick Brooks, author of Promise Boys on Passions and Prologues.

[Music Playing]

Alright Nick, I am super excited to have you on the show today. Your book is one of the buzziest things coming out this year, and I feel super honored that you're here. So, let's dive right into it. What's the thing that you're super passionate about that we're going to talk about today?

Nick Brooks:

Yeah man, what I'm really passionate about is music. I started rapping at 14 and writing music and writing songs. And it's the thing that I find — when I need an escape, that's still what I go to.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, absolutely. So, obviously everybody has the people in their lives or the places in their lives when they're younger that gave them those first records, those first albums that sort of influenced the music that they would end up loving their whole career.

But yeah. What are some of your first memories of being introduced to the world of music and what were the things that stuck with you?

Nick Brooks:

Yeah. I've always listened to music. My family listened to music. And for a while it was just kind of a thing. I think early, early music, the most I remember listening to was gospel. And that was from my mom. She would play gospel. I grew up, had a single mom for a while, until she remarried.

But she would play gospel all the time. And I clearly saw how that gave her the strength in the morning, you know what I mean? She would be singing along. And she was a singer. She was in a church choir, and I was in a church and for a time I was in a church choir.

So, I really grew up around music and gospel. From there, I played the alto saxophone. My grandmother played the piano. She was self-taught, she taught me.

But where things really changed for me was the introduction of hip hop. And that really came from my dad. When I got a little older, I started seeing my dad a little more. And the earliest thing I remember, the earliest thing was probably Wu-Tang. It was one of the earliest. And then it was Nas, and then it was Rakim for a time, even before Nas and then DMX.

And then, as I started to get older and venturing out into the world on my own without my mom or my dad, I really just connected with the culture of hip hop in all facets. And became a poet.

Ultimately, what I'm really, really passionate about is writing and storytelling. But I know that's kind of a cheat to talk about that because I'm an author, you know what I mean?

Adam Sockel:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nick Brooks:

But music I think was probably the other thing that's just kind of an offshoot, but still so connected to the stories I tell today.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. So, I'm super interested in this. I was really lucky, kind of like you, I first grew up hearing the music of my parents and a lot of it was — my dad loved Motown. So, I got introduced to a lot of Motown early.

But then, I'm the youngest of four siblings, so my siblings were kind of the people who introduced me to different types of music. And I was very lucky because I had siblings who listened to everything.

So, if I was driving to school with my brother who's four years older than me, one day we might be listening to, I don't know, an NSYNC album or something, but the next day he would put in Nas or he would put in Tupac or …

And so, I got to hear a little bit of everything. And like you said about the poetry, actually, I remember one of the first books my mom ever bought me was Tupac's, The Rose That Grew from Concrete, his book of poetry. And I remembered it just sticking with me.

And then for me, I grew to love hip hop music specifically through the lyrics and the storytelling. And so, for you, were you finding that these different artists that you kind of connected with, was it through the lyrics or was it through the beats? What was it that kind of stuck with you with specific artists?

Nick Brooks:

Definitely the lyrics, man. And it's funny, like you said, your mom got you that book. I was at a camp one year, really young, and the camp counselor saw me … I would be writing down lyrics to songs. I would just be finding loose paper and writing them down. And I was really young, and he saw that.

And so, he would go online and print out the lyrics for all these songs. But Tupac was one of those ones that he printed out a lot. And for me, it definitely was the lyrics that connected with me. And I think similarly with DMX, I always talk about DMX because for me, he's probably — his first album, It’s Dark and Hell is Hot is my favorite album of all time.

But the poetry and the way they describe in such detail with such emotion, their environments, you know what I'm saying?

Adam Sockel:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nick Brooks:

And I'm looking out the window and it's my reflection, and it's hard not to connect with that.

And so, yeah bro, just, just like you, the lyrics is what really grabbed me. And that's why I really give credit to hip hop for getting that itch to start writing.

I like to say, we do these podcasts or panels and stuff, and you always get the questions about the authors that inspired you the most and the authors you read the most and all of that. And I always say it's crazy. Because for me it was more so rap and hip, those were my authors, you know what I'm saying? Like Earl Simmons, Shawn Carter, these were my authors, although obviously I did read, but they are the ones who painted the most vivid stories for me.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. It's interesting you said it because I can remember specific songs still that I probably haven't heard in forever. And I could do the lyrics that I remember because of the way that they told stories.

Like I think Brenda, it’s a song by Tupac, where he literally has a whole story about her. But then there's also other songs that I remember that my brother used to play, like DJ Quik's album Rhythm-al-ism.

And again, there's literally a lyric at the beginning. It's like, “My name is Quik and I be moving fast, like a race car.” I could do the whole thing because it's like these beats that hit.

And so, you were saying about how these different artists inspire you as a writer, obviously like you said, when you kind of were writing down lyrics and wanting to perform them yourself, that's a different type of writing.

But when you were writing your new book Promise Boys, for example, did you find that you would try to write in a way that sort of mimicked the way that you wanted to write music? Or is it something entirely different for you?

Nick Brooks:

It's definitely different, but there's some crossover there because I think there's just kind of a musicality to the way I write dialogue, just inherently. And I think a lot of that comes from my connection to music and specifically lyrics and how they're said, how they're written, just the rhythm of it. There's a rhythm to it that I think is very similar to probably how I write lyrics and how I write poetry.

And then, a lot of the environment and the texture of the world is the same because Promise Boys are set in DC where I'm from, it's the same type of thing as the city story of inter-city kids.

And those are the stories that I talked about in my music too. So, I definitely think, if anything I was well prepared for all the years of writing lyrics, it definitely prepared me for Promise.

And even, I'm not sure you know my whole story, but even coming from music, I also got into film. I just graduated from USC Film School in 2020, so that was another kind of preparation that I had. But between the two, it just kind of set me up for success, to be honest, with Promise.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. And I have to imagine thinking about, you're talking about how the dialogue you write is a little lyrical. And I have to imagine that it's going to help — I know you're still relatively close to the readers that are going to read your new book.

But I think of having interviewed Jason Reynolds a bunch of times and Kwame Alexander a bunch of times, they basically said, they were talking about what you're saying, they're like, “Yeah, I listen to music, and I talk to the kids that I'm writing for, so that I can write in a way that they can recognize.”

But I have to imagine, was that something that you had in mind knowing that you were writing a young adult novel? Like okay, I want to make sure that I'm writing in a way that younger people are going to still be able to relate to.

And if so, how did you make sure that you were going to remain that relatable? Because I always think it's funny, people who write young adult books very rarely are teenagers anymore when they're writing them.

Nick Brooks:

Yeah, yeah.

Adam Sockel:

So, how did you write in a way that was able to be connected to, for those younger readers?

Nick Brooks:

Yeah. No, that's a great question. So, it's a few parts. Like you said, one, still being connected with the kids, talking to kids, being in schools.

Two, it helps a lot when you … I'm not a kid anymore, but I remember how I spoke as a kid, you know what I mean?

Again, it's funny because I kind of just tap back into that. I just think about me to be honest. I think about me and how I would speak as a kid.

And then just being tapped in with the culture, man, listening to the music, being on Twitter, you know what I mean?

Adam Sockel:

Yeah.

Nick Brooks:

Kind of just staying tapped in with the culture and the vibe. And I think the closer to that you are, then the easier it is to imagine what a 17 — and then, not to mention, you got to remember too, I taught, not just being in classrooms from giving presentations on books, but I taught these kids too for a good amount of time.

I just transitioned out of education in 2017, which actually seems very far now, but I swear with pandemic, the time kind of just condensed.

Adam Sockel:

Forever. Yeah.

Nick Brooks:

Yeah. In my head, 2017 wasn't that long ago, but I got to remember it was six years ago. But I taught kids, I coached Little League Football. I worked with the exact population, at-risk, young black men. I worked with them specifically teaching character development, when I was in college at Howard University.

So, it's just kind of one of those things that's a part of me a little bit. And so, it wasn't necessarily top of mind. It was more of a kind of just subconscious, getting into the zone, really getting into the writing zone and just embracing the voice.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. Along those lines, at the time we were recording this, I just happened to yesterday, I interviewed a screenwriter who transitioned into writing a novel. It just happened to be, I'm interviewing you both this week, but-

Nick Brooks:

Yeah.

Adam Sockel:

I'm curious for you, while you were in film school and then wanting to tell stories that are going to be visual, obviously in nature, whether it's short films or full-length films, how does it feel differently for you as a storyteller?

Because you said at your core, whether it's recording hip hop or writing poetry or creating movies or films or writing your books now, it's all storytelling.

But how does it feel different for you to look at a story that you want to put on the screen as opposed to writing it down and turning it into a novel?

Nick Brooks:

Yeah, it's another great question. And like you said, this is my first writing novel. I had one middle grade come out in October. So, I don't consider myself an expert necessarily, but for me, the way that I see it is for screen the worlds, the tone, and really those two things really, really scream on the page. And it's something specific that I need you to see, to be able to understand the journey of this particular character.

For the novels, for me at least, they're much smaller character-driven, kind of stories. Like if I have an idea where the character is so, so, so rich, my idea for my next YA mystery, the character came to me and it's just so much to explore with that person. They’re so deep, it makes me feel like this needs to be a novel, you know what I mean?

Adam Sockel:

Yeah.

Nick Brooks:

Versus the world being fantastic and whatever kind of magic you want to — whatever it is. Once it becomes really, really cinematic, really is the word. Once something feels very cinematic, for me, it's like, oh okay, this makes sense for screen. It's big. But then with the novel, you kind of zero in, that's how I think about it.

So, I could take any idea, like the story of Men in Black, the novel that I would pull out of that is … I don't know if you remember Men in Black?

Adam Sockel:

Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, I think we're similar ages.

Nick Brooks:

Okay. Cool, cool. But when that spaceship lands in that backyard and the husband comes out and that woman comes to the door and he yells at her to go back inside, what is the novel look like that she writes about living with him, on that? You know what I mean?

I just think her character is just so deep in that movie, because it's like she's this woman who has this husband that whatever his deal is, she's trying to hold it together. Again, like I said, that's where my imagination goes. It just kind of goes out there. I don't know why I'm blanking on Tommy Lee's character's name.

Adam Sockel:

J. One of them’s J, one of them’s K.

Nick Brooks:

One of them is J and one of them is K. I think it might be K, I forget. But again, just learning about … I'd cut back to when he first joined — which they eventually did. When they did two, three, they started to go there, they started to dive deeper.

But for me, that's kind of a little bit of the difference is focusing on these people in a particular moment versus making a kind of really big cinematic, sweeping gesture. Which is a very long way to answer that question, but-

Adam Sockel:

No, but honestly, that's extremely interesting. Because I was telling you before we were recorded, I've interviewed hundreds of authors at this point, and authors always talk about people, when they're looking for books that they want to read, people will say like, “Well, I'm drawn into books that have a certain atmosphere, or I'm drawn into books because of their character-driven or plot-driven,” whatever it is.

But it's really interesting. It sounds like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like for you, if you think of a story in your brain and you want to explore the world, it's maybe more of a visual thing, but if there's a specific character that you want to dive into, that's something you might want to write out more into a novel. Is that sound right?

Nick Brooks:

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Because the freedom that I got with the novel is just to be inside the head of the character. You don't get that really for screen, because it's like, that's just not how you write it.

And I'm also a director. So, for a writer/director, it's all about subtext. Like on the page, everything's about subtext. Whereas in the novel, the character can go inside his own thoughts and just think out loud. To be honest, I hate to say it like this, for screen, that's like a cheat almost, you know what I mean?

Adam Sockel:

Yeah.

Nick Brooks:

It's like a cheat almost. So, to be able to do that in the novel is great because I have lots and lots of thoughts. And so, I would love to be able to just step into the shoes of a character and just think and just let them talk to themselves. That's really fun for me. So, I like that about book writing.

Adam Sockel:

It’s so rare to get to talk to someone who tells stories in so many different avenues. It is really cool just to think about you writing the novel and looking at it through the eyes of a director and being like, “Okay, how would I shoot this particular scene if it was a film. And then how would I go ahead and write that out from someone else's point of view?” This isn't even a question, now I'm just like trying to project myself into-

So, for my listeners who might not somehow be aware of Promise Boys, can you kind of introduce the novel to them and then we'll dive into some questions about that real quick.

Nick Brooks:

Absolutely, yes. So, Promise Boys is a YA murder mystery setting in Washington DC, my hometown, and it centers on Urban Promise Prep, an all boys Charter School, that's ran by authoritarian, Principal Moore who believes that he has to pretty much (for lack of a better word), beat the discipline into these black and brown kids.

And so, Principal Moore, tragically turns up dead and three boys emerged as suspects in the crime, all of them with the motive and potentially access. And so, they'll have to kind of put their differences aside or their mistrust for each other aside to work together to figure out who actually did this, to clear their names. And that's Promise Boys.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. And I have to say your publishing team is doing some incredible work with. I just love, there's such a mic drop moment in the description of the book, it says, “For fans of Jason Reynolds, Angie Thomas, and Karen McManus.” It's such a trio and it's just so fantastic.

And I want to ask you, not about that, because no one wants to be asked how's it feel to be compared to Angie Thomas? No, I'm not going to ask you. That's a rough question.

But what made you want to write like a murder mystery type story? What made you want to go that avenue? Because obviously, I can understand why you would put the story in your hometown or everything, that makes a ton of sense. But what made you want to go down this kind of murder mystery type route?

Nick Brooks:

Yeah. Well actually, that's what I write primarily on the TV film side, is mystery, is murder mystery. And so, it all came about because somebody actually … I had a different murder mystery script somebody read. You might even be familiar with Cake Creative.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah.

Nick Brooks:

Yeah, yeah. And so, they read that script and reached out. And they did their research however they did, they found out I worked in education and da, da, da, da, da. And they were like, “Would you write a murder mystery centered in a school?” And I was like, “Hell yeah, of course. That's where I come from.”

And so, yeah, so we developed the idea and I kind of wrote it out, but like I said, the answer is really just like, that's what I write.

And another thing that I always tell people is like, when I do talk about the authors that did inspire me growing up, the big one for me was Walter Mosley. I was reading Walter Mosley, probably way younger than I should have been.

But he did … I don’t know if you saw the movie Devil in a Blue Dress with Denzel, but he did the whole Easy Rawlins Series. And before that, of course it's Hardy Boys, and reading that, those are the other things I kind of grew up on.

So, you got Hardy Boys, you got Walter Mosley, a little bit of Sydney Sheldon. There's these crime mysteries and that's what I grew up reading. And so, when I started to my own journey into writing and telling stories outside of the music medium at least, that's kind of what I gravitated towards, was murder mystery.

Adam Sockel:

So, two questions off that. One, are those the types of books you still find yourself drawn towards? And then sort of the same question, but from a film side of things, do you find yourself drawn towards murder mystery or just mystery in general type films when you're watching things?

Nick Brooks:

A hundred percent on both sides. Mysteries are kind of another cheat to be honest, because the engine is so strong, this is an inherent engine like, “Okay, we got to figure out what happened.” And so, when you have a well-constructed mystery, it's hard not to be compelling, at least in my mind.

So definitely, I think murder mystery and then also crime adjacent, trying to think of — so, one movie I always reference is Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. I don't know if you’ve seen that.

Adam Sockel:

Oh my God, what a good movie. Sorry, I'm talking over you. This is bad podcasting. Go ahead. It’s such a good movie.

Nick Brooks:

No, no, no, no, you're fine. That's the type of shit I like, Guy Ritchie stuff. Snatch is another one of my favorites. I love just those type of movies and some of those aren't necessarily mystery, but they're these witty, quick turning crime films that kind of keeps you guessing.

Quentin Tarantino's another one who does that, with Jackie Brown, that type of stuff. So yeah, man, that's kind of what I grew up on and that's the stuff I really, really like to watch, stuff I really like to read, stuff I like to write.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. Oh man, we’re so close to me just falling down a rabbit hole about, like you mentioned Snatch, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, and Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels. You're absolutely right. These movies where — and books are the same way.

But I think what I love so much about those exact films is it's like you watch them the first time and then, like you said, they're not necessarily a mystery, but the way they're shot and I'll use Snatch because you're talking about that, the Guy Ritchie film. The way that it's shot and then it kind of goes back to scenes and it quick cuts what actually happened that you didn't see the first time, and then you want to watch it again to see if you can pick up on those things.

And I think it's the same thing. I find myself, if I read a book where it's a mystery and then those last few pages, it blows your mind. All I want to do is go back and see what stuff I missed, and it makes it re-readable.

So, yeah. Again, not a question, but yeah. We are very much the same, which is so good.

Nick Brooks:

No, and this is why it’s fun to talk with people outside of just book stuff because you find all these other similarities, you know what I mean? And all these other things that you like, and you can just talk to the people versus being focused on trying to promote a book.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. So, have you watched or read anything recently that gave you that same feeling like that, I know I'm putting you on the spot. But is there anything recently that you've kind of enjoyed that you've been like, “Oh, my God, this is exactly that feeling that I want.”

Nick Brooks:

I’ll tell you what, I think Severance is probably … I don’t know if you've seen that one. It's the Apple Show.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah.

Nick Brooks:

And Ben Stiller is just — I really liked his first joint Escape at Dannemora. But he's just killing it with what he's doing. But I think Severance kind of gave me that feeling. It was like, it's a little more sci-fi, but there's a mystery in it.

Another one I really like that's this exact thing that we're talking about, it's not quite mystery, mystery adjacent, it's White Lotus. I think the writing on that is really good. Those would be two that I'd say I've seen recently, that kind of give me that, oh I'm just with it. The engine is great and the writing's good. And there's things I'm looking for because I know things are being hidden from me.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. Severance is one of those shows, I know it's only been one season, but the last episode of Severance was … and I won't give anything away for anyone who hasn't watched Severance yet. But it's so good that when I went back and found out, like you said, that it's Ben Stiller, it was one of those moments where like, I almost got irritated that he was also directing and producing too, you know what I mean? I'm sure you probably feel that way, like having-

Nick Brooks:

Yeah.

Adam Sockel:

But yeah, it was like one of those things where I was like, how dare this man be so good looking and talented and charming and funny and a great actor and then also be able to pull together a show like that, that’s infuriating.

Nick Brooks:

Yeah man, he's good at it. He's good at it, bro. Like I said, off his first one, he did one called Escape with Benicio del Toro. And who else was in that one? I forget. But it was also just really good. And like you said, you said it just how I was saying. I'm just like, “Man, I guess he's the man.”

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. It's just frustrating. It's just like, man you shouldn't be able — save some room for somebody else, but-

Nick Brooks:

Yeah, exactly.

Adam Sockel:

Well Nick, I know you're super busy and I know I kind of just asked you for some recommendations, but I always end each conversation by having the authors on the show give a recommendation. It could be a book, it could be a music album. I've had people recommend protein powder and just going for a walk. Anything that you want to recommend that people should either know about or do more in their lives. The floor is yours. I'll shut up.

Nick Brooks:

Yeah. No, okay. Man, anything I would recommend, well, I would recommend Severance, if you haven't seen it. Geez, what else? I'm trying to think. I'm trying to think. I don't want to blow this opportunity.

What else would I recommend? Obviously, hate to just go to the self-promotion bag, but Promise Boys is coming out this Tuesday. I also actually will have a new album that I'm releasing next Friday. And that's under Ben Kenobi. That's not Nick Brooks.

And what else? And yeah, I just want it to be a great year for everybody. It's the top of the year and hopefully we have a peaceful healing year. I'm just excited for peace and happiness this year. So, anybody listening, just be thinking about how you can lean into that this year.

Adam Sockel:

That's absolutely perfect. Well Nick, the book is one of the most anticipated things I'm going to read all year, and I'll make sure people will know, they'll have all the links from the show notes for the album and the book and everything.

And Nick is literally getting ready to go out on a book tour. So, I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Nick Brooks:

Thank you, Adam.

[Music Playing]

Adam Sockel:

Passions and Prologues is proud to be an Evergreen Podcast and was created by Adam Sockel. It was produced by Adam Sockel and Sean Rule-Hoffman. And if you are interested in this podcast and any other Evergreen Podcasts, you can go to evergreenpodcasts.com to discover all the different stories we have to tell.

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