Spoiling Scream with Josh Winning

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Adam Sockel:

You are listening to Passions and Prologues, a literary podcast where for each week, I interview an author about a thing they love and how it inspires their work.

I'm your host Adam Sockel, and today's guest is author, Josh Winning, who has a new very creepy book called Burn the Negative. I believe I may have recommended this a few months back and I’m so, so excited to have Josh on the podcast.

His book is very much an homage to the horror genre, and even if you are not really a fan of scary books or scary movies, I think it's very much worth a read because he not only adores the horror genre as a whole, but he gets into the various different threads you can get into.

This book is a haunted house story. It's got a giant scary monster. It has intrigue, it has backstabbing, it has people who may be going through some sort of psychosis. It has a little bit of everything.

I just really, really adored how he took such loving care to weave in so much into this book. It quite literally will keep you guessing till the last page and beyond. I freaking adored it.

Josh and I discussed today, his love of the Scream movie franchise. It's really fun to talk to authors who are similar age that I am because they tend to discover their passions around the same time, I discovered mine.

And so, we get to share our own kind of shared history with the Scream movies. And we get into all of those late nights that we used to have when we were younger and staying up too late and watching creepy things and creeping ourselves out.

I think you're going to really, really love this conversation. It was a blast to have, and Josh is a wonderful human being.

We also talk about some random things he's got to experience as a journalist that I was very jealous of. So, be sure to stick around to the end of the podcast to hear about that.

I want to give you a quick book recommendation. I just finished The Book That Wouldn't Burn by Mark Lawrence. This book came out at the beginning of May, so it is relatively new.

I'll be honest, I grabbed it because I was looking for a book that was similar to The Starless Sea by Erin Morgenstern, which the longtime listeners will know as my favorite book.

And this is somewhat similar, but absolutely at the same time, very different. It is the story of two strangers who find themselves connected by a vast and very strange library that contains more books and aisles than you could possibly imagine. This book is just so, so special.

It is a story that feels like it's about time travel, but also, about religious and cultural intertwining. It's about what feels like a caste system and magic and so, so much more.

It's challenging to even get into the plot, but all I will say is if you are a fan of books about books, homages to knowledge and just the type of story that the reader has to be trusted, the author's going to trust you to follow along and stick with it. And if you do, it will so, so pay off.

So, that's The Book That Wouldn't Burn by Mark Lawrence. I highly recommend checking it out.

You can always reach me at [email protected] if you have any questions or want to let me know what you are passionate about. I love hearing those. And I gave away a random bookshop.org gift card to one listener every single month just for writing in. I really appreciate it.

And also, if you haven't yet, if you could leave me a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts, I would deeply, deeply appreciate it.

Of course, I'm on Instagram and TikTok under the same name, Passions and Prologues. You can find me there anytime you would like. Feel free to shoot me a message.

Okay, that is all the housekeeping. I am so excited for you to listen to this conversation with Josh Winning, author of Burn the Negative on Passions and Prologues.

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Okay, Josh, what is something you are super passionate about that you want to talk about today?

Josh Winning:

I love the Scream films. Do you feel the same way?

Adam Sockel:

I do feel the same way. I'm with you saying that. I'm in my late 30s, I'm wondering if we're like of a similar age, perhaps. So, okay.

Josh Winning:

Yeah, definitely.

Adam Sockel:

So, I will ask the question that I ask everybody, but I'm guessing I know the answer. So, when did you first kind of come across the Scream movies, and what was that experience like for you?

Josh Winning:

I've got a long tradition of watching franchises completely out of order. And well, I mean, it began with Star Wars and then Terminator. But the big one, which is kind of like a bit of a deal breaker, is Scream 2, I started with, rather than Scream One.

And the reason for that is, I think Scream wasn't yet out to rent on VHS or it wasn't in the video store. And so, when I asked my mom to go and rent me Scream because I was too young for an 18 certificate as it is here in the UK, she went off the video shop and she came back with Scream 2.

And I was so excited that I didn't care that I hadn't seen the first one. And so, yeah, that was my introduction to Scream, was just starting right in there with the sequel.

Adam Sockel:

So, that first off, I will say the Scream movies do a really good job for people who haven't seen them … which I'm having a hard time like thinking that anyone hasn't really seen one of them.

But I feel like they do a good job of laying the foundation upon the other movies because that's sort of like the whole — shtick is the wrong word, but like that's sort of like the whole thing of it's is like they are such an homage to horror movies that they sort of lay the groundwork even from the first movie about what's going on and everything.

So, I remember seeing the first one, I'm like … this is a weird memory that I haven't thought about in probably decades. Like I remember being at a friend's house when we were in like, I want to say like seventh grade and like watching the first one on VHS and like being creeped out.

But when you saw Scream 2, like what was it that stuck with you about it so much? Like what was it that spurned this love of the franchise for you?

Josh Winning:

Oh, like 100% Gale. I've just got such a love of that kind of sort of hero. She's kind of a bit of an anti-hero maybe, but she always comes through in the end. I love that complex relationship that she has with everybody around her.

Her relationship with Sydney, the final girl is really interesting. Her relationship with Dewey is sort of like so surprisingly sweet. And I love that it draws out the sweet side of her, even though she's this ruthless journalist.

Adam Sockel:

So, you talked about the fact that you saw the second one first, and you were of a certain age where like you kind of had to ask your mom to go get it for you, which I love. But was this like your first experience with horror movies or had you been watching them for a while at this point?

Josh Winning:

I think I always say like I kind of was an unofficial horror fan as a kid because I was watching those great dark, weird ‘80s fantasy films for kids. Like Labyrinth, and The Dark Crystal, and The NeverEnding Story, Masters of the Universe. Even if I can lump hit them in with those elms.

Those were sort of like my gateway drug to horror, I think. And at some point it's segued into actual full blown horror, but I couldn't tell you exactly when that happened.

Adam Sockel:

Okay. So, I love this so much, is we have in similar interests. I told you before we started recording, like I have a deep, deep love of The Muppets. And I'm the youngest of four children. And so, my oldest sibling, my sister, she introduced me to the Labrinth and Dark Crystal.

And for younger listeners, like I just need to paint you a picture of exactly what Josh was talking about. Like, yes, horror movies are creepy, but the quote unquote children's movies that we grew up with were also terrifying. Like you said, The Dark Crystal, in addition to being very strange, is also very creepy.

Like the Skeksis and like with the Labyrinth, all of the different like these puppets that you know inherently are puppets, but they're very creepy. And you've got David Bowie wandering around with them and they're like … everything is very strange.

So, I feel like it is a very easy transition to say like, “Oh yeah, I love these movies and now, I'm going to move on to …” Like you said. Or like it's not that much of a stretch to say, “I would like to watch just a genuine scary movie.” Because they were so scary, but it was just what we were used to as kids, I suppose, if that makes sense.

Josh Winning:

I don't know. I'm not sure that I ever actually found Dark Crystal scary. I think I was more just sort of fascinated by it.

And the great thing about that one in particular is, I mean, with both of Henson's fantasy films like Labyrinth as well, there's this like vein of darkness. There's this undercurrent of something going on that as a kid you know something's happening there, but you don't know exactly what it is.

And that's the reason these films have such longevity because as you get old, you're like, “Oh my God, The Dark crystal is sort of about duality, the duality of everyone and the good and the evil in everyone. And Labyrinth is sort of like a sexual awakening story in a lot of ways.”

So, yeah, I think there's just something tantalizing about that as a kid where you're like, “Okay, they're puppets, but also there's something going on, I don't quite get it.” Yeah.

Adam Sockel:

Well, when you mentioned The NeverEnding Story is very much the same thing with like … again, for people who have never seen The NeverEnding Story who might be a little bit younger than both of us, like there are scenes in that where like this horse that you've come to love, just like you basically watch it just give up on life.

And the horse's name is Artax and it's like just burned into my brain and I will never ever get over it.

But like there are scenes in The NeverEnding Story where like it's basically an entire universe is being destroyed by like a version of like depression and like just giving up and like these are the … like the enemy of that entire story is just the nothing. It's this pure emptiness.

And these are the things that we watched as kid that our parents were like, “Go be entertained for 90 minutes.”

Josh Winning:

Yeah. And they're like, “Look, there's a big dog flying dog in it. You're going to love it.” And it's like, “I do love it. And also, this is really dark.

Adam Sockel:

Exactly, yeah. So, for me, I remember again, like watching all those movies, but then I remember staying up way too late with my best friend when I was a kid.

And every like Friday the 13th, TV channels used to genuinely put like the Friday the 13th movies on all night. And we would watch those until like 3:00, 4:00 in the morning and creep ourselves out. And then kind of Scream came along and everything.

So, for you, for anyone who doesn't know what Josh's career, we're going to get to his latest book in a bit here. You've made a kind of a career of horror. So, I know it didn't end at Scream. So, was Scream kind of like a launching off point for you in the horror genre?

Josh Winning:

Yeah, I think I hadn't really heard of a lot of the films that were referenced in Scream. So, when Randy is sort of going like, “Oh, the dorm that dripped blood.” And people are talking about Friday the 13th and it's obviously, all the movie trivia.

Those films actually went completely over my head on a first viewing because I had never seen them or heard of them.

And this is sort of like just on the cusp of the internet. I think Scream 2, they had to change their script because the script leaked online. That was like one of the first times that had ever happened.

So, yes, Scream became my education. It was like, okay, I went on the internet. People had created lists of all the film references in Scream, and I basically just sent my mom off to the video shop again and got her to bring me back either a Friday the 13th, or A Nightmare on Elm Street, or a Hellraiser.

And they all came back in similarly unordered fashion. And they just sort of went from there.

Adam Sockel:

I love those characters that you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, like just watching these movies entirely out of order.

Like do you think that affected your experience with the stories in any way? Or like how, I suppose. Not that you would know not watching things in the beginning. Like how do you think that sort of affected your experience with these franchises?

Josh Winning:

Well, it definitely affected me with Scream because in Scream 2 they very clearly state who the killer is in the first film. So, I remember very vividly starting Scream and thinking to myself, “Don't listen to any names, don't listen, don't listen, don't listen.”

And then the killer is in basically the second scene and she says his name. And I was like, “Oh, well, there we go. Now, I know who it is.”

So, one of the greatest mysteries ever written, which Scream is a fantastic mystery, was completely spoiled for me. And it wasn't spoiled by the internet, it was spoiled by my inability to watch a franchise in order.

Adam Sockel:

And so, something that I really, really loved about your new book Burn the Negative is in the end … we'll like get into the plot and everything very, very shortly.

But something that I really loved is you do this really interesting thing that I think of for a lot of different types of horror movies and haunted house movies, throughout reading the book, at least I was like fairly certain I knew what was going to happen and then I wasn't certain, and then I was certain again, and then I wasn't certain, and then I was certain again.

And I love that because one of my favorite things about horror movies and horror stories in general is like there are so many different ways, like you say, with Scream, it's very much like a mystery like who's doing, what's going on.

But then there are things like Halloween where it's like there is no question about who the evil is, and it's just about like how are you going to stop this impossible thing? And so, for you with the screen movies, you mentioned it being like a mystery and this like curiosity of what's going on with these.

And that's sort of been their thing like throughout the whole series is like keeping you guessing as to who the killer is.

But for other types of horror, what do you find yourself drawn to nowadays? Is it like the found footage stuff, is it haunted houses? Are there certain things that you're drawn to?

Josh Winning:

I think it's sort of high concepts more than anything. I think that it's almost like there's a widening in the horror genre where you've got your really fun sort of mainstream films.

You've got your big sort of high concept stuff. And then you've got sort of like smaller budget things and like indie films. And there's interesting pockets and there's the elevated horror as well.

I think it's the high concepts that really grabbed me. So, like M3GAN, such a great idea. And so, that's when I sort of like ate up with a spoon. And like Smile, which was like surprisingly great, actually. Like such a simple idea and so, so affectionately done.

Like the idea that you see somebody smiling at you before you are killed, which very cleverly turns everyone around you into a menace. And also, turns all the pictures around you, all the pictures in frames, everyone's always smiling in pictures. I thought that was such a clever idea.

So, I'm just a sucker for that kind of thing now.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. To me, I find like I don't love jump scares when those are the only thing that is designed to like creep you out. That's why I like found footage stuff is always very frustrating to me. Because I'm on edge the whole time, which I know is the point of it.

So, like a movie with … I don't know if you remember Creep by the Duplass brothers? Like yeah, so deeply upsetting and there actually isn't a ton of like jump scares there, but I was on edge the whole time.

But like to me, like a perfect horror movie is like Cabin in the Woods where it has the horror elements, but it also, has comedy. And like it has stuff that creeps you out, but it also, has stuff where like it makes you laugh.

And to me, like there's such a thin line and the best horror jumps back and forth between being creeping you out and making you laugh and like giving you those moments to breathe.

But I don't know, like to me, I feel like when people say they don't like horror, it's just like you just haven't found the thing that you like. Because it's like you said, it's such a broad genre.

It can be something that keeps you on edge for 90 minutes. It can be something that like makes you laugh or it can just be something that you said like from a high concept standpoint. It's just like it makes you look at society in a whole different light.

Josh Winning:

Yeah, I'm very suspicious of people who say that they don't watch scary movies because I'm like, “What? How do you process all of that?” If you only ever watch really happy stuff that's not reality, how is that helping you sort of like live your life.

Adam Sockel:

Without exaggeration, I have lots of friends who are horror writers, I have said they are the most well-adjusted people because they write about their trauma and they actually get it out. They don't keep it all packed inside.

Josh Winning:

Yeah. You'll never meet a horrible horror fan. Horror fans are like … what's that? Would you say, are they ride or die? Like they're just the coolest people.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. They're just like, I don't want to say like easygoing, but like they are … I also, find that the people who write about like this dark, heavy stuff have such a kindness to them. And it's like an understanding. It's like without fail. And I love that about them.

Speaking of dark and creepy stuff, I want to talk about Burn the Negative because I told you before we started recording, we're recording this in like mid-July and this is going to come out not too long after that. But like this is the time I start thinking about spooky season and Halloween things. So, this hit me at the perfect time.

But first, before we dive into it, can you give my listeners sort of an introduction to the novel? And then I'm going to ask you lots of nerdy questions about the book itself.

Josh Winning:

Amazing. Yeah. It's about a journalist called Laura Warren, and she is sent to Los Angeles to visit the set of a horror streaming series.

And on the way there, she learns that the series is actually a remake of the first ‘90s horror film that Laura starred in as a child. And when she gets there, all hell breaks loose.

Adam Sockel:

And the thing that I loved so much about your book is it … we've been talking about different types of horror. But I've been struggling to explain this book to like friends and people because like I can't put it into a neat package.

It's a haunted house, it's a homage to horror movies. It's a like final girl story. It's a mythology. Like there's so much in here. So, obviously, this feels to me very much like a love letter to all of horror.

But I guess like take me through how you started to come up with the idea for this story and then like without obviously giving stuff away, like how you wanted to build out all of the things that you've packed in here.

Josh Winning:

It started with the psychic. So, in the book, there's a psychic called Beverly, and she's been hired to be on the set of this streaming horror series in order to make sure that nothing spooky happens.

Which that is something that has happened in the past, like psychics have been brought onto sets and stuff.

But for me, like that's because … so, I came up with a psychic character because I had met Lorraine Warren. She's sort of like the famous R-S psychologist who investigated the amateur horror. She came to Borley Rectory in the UK. She did the cases that got turned into the Conjuring films.

So, I went to her house in like 2015, 14 I think, around the time the Conjuring 2 was coming out. So, I went to her house, I got to meet her, got to talk to her. She took me down into like the occult museum that's part of her house.

And I just found her really interesting and like so interesting that I thought one day I'm going to write a book about psychic.

And it didn't really come together until I thought, “What if there was a psychic who was actually sort of a skeptic and didn't believe in certain paranormal activities? And how would that look? And what if she got teamed up with a journalist because what of you know?” And that's sort of where it came from.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. I don't want to get too sidetracked, but I'm going to assume that meeting was because you're also a journalist. Is that like kind of how it came about?

Josh Winning:

Yeah. I mean, it's pure laziness on my part. I kind of thought like it's chalk and cheese, it's like facts and feelings. It's those two things sort of fighting each other.

Adam Sockel:

Walking through, I guess, how many times do you get a chance to talk to someone who's been in that occult museum?

You could very much just tell me it just felt like a normal room, but like did it feel different to be in that room that is now, so famous and infamous? Like or was it just like, “Oh yeah, this is a bunch of stuff that people are inspired by.”

Josh Winning:

I really don't want to like hurt anyone, but it was incredibly cheesy. And there was stuff in there that was a bit creepy and there was stuff in there that was just like plastic.

I think there was a movie score, maybe one of the sore film movie scores was playing. So, it was sort of like a bit of a circus of horrors. But very cool, not scary.

Adam Sockel:

Well, yeah, and I kind of assumed that's what you were going to say because like for people who might not know, like there's a very quote unquote famous doll.

They made a whole movie about it and the doll is very creepy in the movie. It's like a Raggedy Ann and Andy doll. It's kind of like hard to be like, “Yeah, that's the most haunted doll in history.” We all had one of those doll. I had to ask.

Josh Winning:

Yeah, I looked at that doll in the box and I thought, “You are just a doll. The doll in the movie is far scary.”

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. I could not ask about that. I would've gotten like text messages from friends like, “How did you not ask about that experience?”

So, getting back to the book, like I said, there's so many layers to this where like I said, there's like bits of like Amityville Horror in there. There are bits of like actual like monster movie type things.

So, how did you go about layering all of the different aspects you've built in that could have been the main plot?

Like I assume a lot of it might be like editing after the fact, but how do you go about layering so much in there and not feel like you're overwhelming a reader to not know which way to focus on?

Josh Winning:

Yeah, that was really tricky. I think I'm very much a sort of like I feel my way through a story and if it feels right to me, I just kind of like cross my fingers and hope that it feels right to the reader as well.

So, the one thing that I really meticulously planned was Laura's emotional arc over the course of the book. So, I knew emotionally where she started, I kind of knew emotionally where she was going to finish.

And that was sort of like the framework on which I could hang all these sort of like spooky things and just saw what came out of my fingers as I was typing really.

Adam Sockel:

And you could tell me if I'm completely wrong, I have to imagine you mentioned knowing the emotional arc, but did you have to imagine you sort of knew the story arc as well with the ending? Or were you unpacking that as you were going?

Josh Winning:

Plot wise, I knew where it was going to end up the whole way through. There was like an added little wrinkle that actually got edited out, but I won't spoil it and I'm glad it's not in there now.

But yeah, I did know where it was going to end up, but it's always that second act section that is always a bit like, “Hmm, what's the best way to get to that end point?”

And so, I try to just have fun with it and just be like, “What do I want to see? What's cool and different and what would Kevin Williamson want to see?”

Adam Sockel:

Well, and something I love about this book is … anyone who is a fan of, not even just horror, but like mystery and thrillers knows like when people write like an Agatha Christie style story …

I love Agatha Christie stories, but there are a few times where she does her like Hercule Poirot is going to do the big reveal. And he explains the plot and talks about perspectives that you as the reader never had. So, you'd never really had a chance to figure out what's going on. You don't do that.

Like in theory, someone could figure out sort of what's going on with your book because like there are just scenes where there's only certain people in there and you're like, “Well, there has to be involving them somehow.”

But you do it in such a way that at the end I was like floored with how you came across it.

Is there ever a worry as the author that you're going to write a scene where you're like, “Oh shoot, I only have three people in this scene.” Like how do you go about like giving readers a breadcrumb trail to follow without overtly saying like, “Well, here's what happened,” and it's on page 160 or whatever?

Josh Winning:

That's a great question especially because that's what I'm currently wrestling with with my next manuscript. It's a single location story and it's even more overtly a slasher.

And so, the challenge and the fun of that one has really been who disappears at what time and when, how many people can I have disappear realistically at any given point? How obvious is it actually going to be who it is?

And I think there's definitely a funness in doing that and also, trying to figure out exactly how to sort of veil that kind of put a bit of a fog around it.

It's tricky. It is really tricky. And it's in the edit. You have to just find that stuff in the edit. I think no one does it. I don't do it perfectly first time or second time, or even third time.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah, I know what you mean. Like I said, that is what I think I loved so much about the book is I would get done with a chapter and be like just sure I knew what was going on. Then I'd be like, “Wait, I'm not …”

And then like I get to the next chapter and be completely foisted again.

And so, to me, yeah, I have nothing but just like adoration for this book. I loved it so, so much and I know readers are going to as well. And I don't want to give like much away of the plot any more than we've talked about, I want to let people kind of discover for themselves.

But I have a few more questions that are unrelated to the book. One, like we mentioned The Muppets. You have in your bio that you met Kermit and Piggy?

Josh Winning:

I did.

Adam Sockel:

Can I ask then how that came to be? I want to know everything about that.

Josh Winning:

It was everything you dreamed of. It was on the set of Muppets Most Wanted, so the second Muppets film from that team.

And they were shooting, I think it was Leavesden or was it Pinewood Studios in the UK, which is I think the same studio where they shoot Bond. So, it was just this hilarious sort of like clash of two very different things.

I would love to see kind of a the Frog and Bond film. Definitely amazing. Maybe he should be the new Bond.

Adam Sockel:

Absolutely.

Josh Winning:

Yeah. So, I went on that set and I got to interview Kermit and Miss Piggy came along and she was brilliant. I got to interview … who else was there? Oh, Ricky Gervais, I interviewed him when he was in a lima outfit because there's a point in film where he let wears a lima outfit.

And yeah, it was just amazing. It was like a most joyful day. All the journalists who were there were just smiling. Like my face hurt by the end of the day.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. I have heard experiences similar to this many times over from other people. I have never gotten to meet a Muppet, unfortunately.

But I told you before I started recording, one of the first episodes of this podcast was Brad Meltzer, who I've talked to a lot. And like we have talked Muppets literally every time I've ever interacted with him.

And he said the same thing. Like he got to take his family to Sesame Street and the Muppeteers, the performers like, “Who do you want to meet?” And they would bring them out and they would like basically …

And I love so much that when you are interviewing people for a movie, it would be so easy for them to just be like, “Okay, Josh, you're going to interview the people that are performing as they come up.” But they keep that magic love by being like, “No, you're going to interview The Muppets.”

And I feel like that's one of the safe spaces. They say never like meet your heroes. But I feel like meeting The Muppets is like the safest version of that.

Josh Winning:

Oh yeah. And actually, the funny thing about focusing on The Muppets themselves is you hold the dictaphone by the mouth of the puppet and then you're like, “No, it's got to be about two foot.” I love.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. Ah, that's so funny. Had to ask about that. Okay.

Well, one other question about like when you are writing your manuscripts, do you find yourself steering away from watching and interacting with horror related content just so that it doesn't like bleed in? Or are you able to still enjoy those things while you're building out your own stories?

Josh Winning:

It's more books. I try not to read similar books. So, there's a book called Harrow Lake by Kat Ellis, which is about a horror film.

Adam Sockel:

I love it.

Josh Winning:

And I've … oh my God, it's so good. Right?

Adam Sockel:

Yeah.

Josh Winning:

It's brilliant. And it's like, yeah, that was when I said, “Right, don't go near that until you've written this draft.” And I actually became friends with Kat and I said to her, “I haven't read your book yet, but there's a reason.” And I just loved it anyway.

But movies, I kind of don't feel that the same sort of crossing the streams. I like watching movies because it's that input. It's lots of visual, creative things going on. And I find that sparks my imagination rather than inspires anything sort of like specific maybe.

Adam Sockel:

Okay. So, I always end with one question. I always ask for a recommendation of any kind from the authors that are visiting. I usually say you can recommend anything you want, but I'm going to make you narrow it down to some horror recommendations.

It can be movies or books. But I'm going to hold you to some horror recommendations. This is mainly for me, honestly. This isn't for even my listeners anymore.

But what are some horror content that you recommend that more people should check out?

Josh Winning:

I really loved Knock at the Cabin, which is the adaptation of the Paul Tremblay book, The Cabin at the End of the World. And it's just fantastic. It's got Jonathan Groff, it's got Dave Bautista, and it's just such a great adaptation of that book. Really, really enjoyed it. And a really great narrative as well.

And that's one of the great things I think about the horror genre at the moment is it has become this really safe exploratory space for creatives. And that is something that should absolutely continue and be celebrated.

And in books, the book that I absolutely loved and everyone's talking about it, but I'm going to talk about it as well. It's Maeve Fly by CJ Leede. And it's about a Disney theme park princess who also, has a bit of a blood thirsty side. And it's gory, and messed up, and just brilliantly written.

It's debut, so I kind of like hate her for that because it's just so good. Check it out because it's amazing.

Adam Sockel:

Those are fantastic recommendations and I'm going to reiterate once the again, everyone, like I said, everyone's going to hear this in like middle to end of July. It's the perfect time to start getting ready for the scary spooky season.

And Burn the Negative is such a perfect book to kind of kick off that mood that's going to be in all of our brains for the next several months.

So, go read Burn the Negative. And Josh, thank you so much for joining me today. This was great.

Josh Winning:

Thank you. It's been so fun.

[Music Playing]

Adam Sockel:

Passions and Prologues is proud to be an Evergreen Podcast and was created by Adam Sockel. It was produced by Adam Sockel and Sean Rule-Hoffman.

And if you are interested in this podcast and any other Evergreen Podcast, you can go to evergreenpodcasts.com to discover all the different stories we have to tell.