The magic of a good bake with Jude Atwood

[Music Playing]

Adam Sockel:

You are listening to Passions & Prologues, a literary podcast where each week, I interview an author about a thing they love and how it inspires their work.

My name's Adam Sockel and today's guest is Jude Atwood, author of the brand new middle grade novel, Maybe There Are Witches. This is Jude's debut novel and it won the Kraken Prize for middle grade fiction.

It is a delightful story of a young girl who comes to a new town after her mother inherited a very creepy Victorian bed and breakfast on the outskirts of a small town in Illinois.

And she's struggling to adjust. And as she discovers different things in the house, she finds a diary of a long dead relative and finds out that there were some creepy things that have gone on in her family's history, as well as the fact that in this diary, it starts predicting things that are going on in her own life as well.

It's a really, really awesome, creepy story. And in this conversation, we talk about kind of how its origins were in potentially being a horror movie, which is kind of where all of the creepy things come from, even though it transitioned to a middle grade novel.

What we lead off the conversation with is something that I am also, deeply passionate about. Jude loves baking. We get into the different pies and cakes and things that he likes to make for him and his partner, as well as for all of the friends and family in his life.

We also, talk about our shared love of The Great British Baking Show, and so, so much more.

It's such a wonderful conversation and it definitely made me want to start baking. And Jude was true to his word in the conversation we had and did send me a recipe that I am going to check out for a specific pie that we talk about.

So, you can hear all about that in the conversation in just a bit. But along the lines of Jude's new book, Maybe There Are Witches. I want to give you another really wonderful middle grade creepy novel that I adore that came out a few years ago called Scritch Scratch by Lindsay Currie.

It is another book that it's described as for fans of the Goosebump series, which I love because that is exactly what it reminded me of. It's a chilling ghost story based on real Chicago history about a very creepy spirit and unlucky girl and a haunting mystery that will tie everything together.

The main character isn't really interested in paranormal things, but her family hosts a ghost themed Chicago bus tour, so it is always around her life. And then very, very creepy things start happening and she can't decide if it's just all a hoax or if it is her truly being haunted. So, that’s Scritch Scratch by Lindsay Currie.

And I do think you should check out both of these books, especially in tandem. There are delightful, spooky, summer ghost stories that I think you will adore.

And if you ever want to get a hold of me, you can of course always reach me at [email protected]. There you can send me any of your passions, the things that you love doing. I love reading about those.

And you can also, always send me any of your five star reviews that you've left of the podcast and I'll give you some customized book recommendations.

You can also, find me on TikTok and Instagram @Passions&Prologues where I'm always talking about bookish related things, sharing the latest reads that I'm checking out, and a whole bunch more.

Okay, that is all of the housekeeping. I'm not going to keep you any longer. I am so excited for you guys to listen to this discussion with debut author Jude Atwood on Passions & Prologues.

Okay, Jude, what is something you are super passionate about that we're going to be discussing today?

[Music Playing]

Jude Atwood:

I don't think that's any of your business, Adam. No, actually, my passion is baking and it's something I came to later in life. Like I was always one of those guys who never used his kitchen.

And then it's really corny because about six, seven years ago I started to watch The Great British Baking Show on Netflix. And I didn't watch it because I liked baking, like I watched it because I liked British people.

And I just became obsessed. I powered through a few seasons and I think after two seasons I thought like, “I could try this.”

Adam Sockel:

Okay, you have no way of knowing two things that this makes such a wonderful topic. One, I have a 16 year old niece who since she was five or six I have been doing baking days with. So, it's to the point now, where somehow as a 16 year old teenager, she still thinks I'm cool enough to hang out with, which is great.

But we do baking all the time in the sense like our text thread to each other is exclusively bake things we want to bake.

And the other thing is my partner and I watch Great British Bake Bakeoff as well, and we literally … it's almost like how a lot of people might put on like Friends or Seinfeld, we call it emotional support bakeoff. So, totally it's our emotional support. It's like our like safety blanket at the end of the night. Just something to watch that mixes feel good.

So, let's start at the beginning. What got you into baking? Like what were your kind of first things that you started dabbling with and why did it give you the bug, I suppose?

Jude Atwood:

Well, so, I knew how to cook, I just didn't. And I grew up on a farm in rural Illinois, and I guess this is kind of retro, but the local paper had a program, the newspaper called Kids Cook. And so, every summer, there would be recipes and instructions.

And my mom wanted to make sure that all of her boys knew how to cook, which was kind of progressive I think in the ‘80s and in that part of the country.

And so, at the end, you'd follow these recipes and you'd learn to crack a egg and measure ingredients. And then at the end, your parents would fill out a form and then the newspaper would send you a certificate and it would publish your name in the paper. I mean, that felt special at the time.

And then after I started watching the show, I wanted to make something I'd never made before. And so, I think I made my own birthday cake one year and I went with a lemon self-saucing pudding.

Adam Sockel:

That's amazing.

Jude Atwood:

Right? I mean, and the word pudding has sort of a different meaning I think in the UK than here. They did self-saucing puddings as a competition on the show. And I thought like, “I have no idea what that is.”

So, I found a recipe on the BBC's website and it wasn't super difficult except that I had no mixer at the time. And the levitating came from whipped egg whites. And so, it is really labor intensive to beat egg whites to a stiff peak. So, I learned that that day.

Adam Sockel:

You are a bit of a masochist. Yeah. That is something for me, from a baking standpoint, like I said, I've been baking cookies and stuff with my niece for a long, long time now.

But what really got me into loving baking was like every generic story about the pandemic starting was wanting to make bread because we all had the time to do it. And I'm like you, like I've always known how to cook and I've always really liked cooking.

And I always jokingly say like, “Cooking is like jazz.” Like if anyone's like, “How did you make this?” I can't give them any specific amounts of, “This was how much cayenne,” or, “Here's how much oregano I used,” because I just sort of throw it into taste.

But baking, you have to be … like when I first started baking, I was like, “It doesn't matter. It says two and a half cups of flour. Does that really matter?” It really, really matter. Like that stuff is so important that you keep the specifics.

And so, after you make the cake, did that sort of open up a new … like when you tried it you were like, “Oh my God, I want to do more things.” Or sort of where did that take you?

Jude Atwood:

Well, I mean, it was kind of a revelation and it's kind of a neat cake. I'm sure you can Google it, but the idea is that it forms its own sauce that kind of sinks to the bottom of the dish. And then I made a chocolate self-saucing. Like I'm very sort of sequential.

But in the last maybe six or seven years, I think I've tried 40 different pies to the point where I would say like pies are kind of my specialty. And my boyfriend is more of a bread baker. Fortunately, he's very patient and was willing to kind of come along for the ride.

Like I'll do birthday cakes for whoever is … like I want an excuse to make something. And it is a little frustrating though because I think when you come to this hobby through reality competition television, you want there to be a challenge every time. And most real people just like simple basic things.

And so, I'll be like, “Hey, what's your favorite kind of pie?” And it's always apple. And I'm like, “Well, what if we do apple habanero?”

And the other thing I've learned is that most kids won't eat anything. And so, you have to kind of dial it down a notch when you're baking for … but like if you let me go nuts, I'll do lemon lavender cake is probably the best.

Adam Sockel:

What I have found … again, my niece, she's 16 and she's very mature for a 16 year old. Like it's so funny, she has three younger siblings that she calls the kids. Like she's just like acts like she's one of the adults.

But one of my reminders that she is still a teenager is how sweet she wants to make things. Like she will send me some cupcake that she wants to make that has like three inches of frosting on top of it. And I'll be like, “Grace, what if we just dialed it back a little bit?”

And so, is that something like have you found … you mentioned lemon a couple times, which I'm on board with, but I was going to say, are there flavor profiles you find yourself drawn more towards in the baking world?

Jude Atwood:

That's an interesting question. Once somebody knows that you're into something, it becomes kind of the go-to gift. There was an onion article years ago about making the mistake of telling people in the office you like penguins. And then it's always … but when it's something practical, it's kind of nice.

And so, a woman that I work with at the beginning of the pandemic, not for a holiday or anything, just shipped me a bunch of different flours or types of flour rather.

And so, learning to bake with like almond flour and potato flour. And so, I think we made a Swedish cake sandkaka with potato flour. And I like that because it's like a good breakfast cake. Like it's not super sweet.

My boyfriend and I just saw our neighbor in a play and in the play, they talk about again, it's lemon, but a lemon polenta almond cake. And so, we decided to try that. And so, we're still trying to perfect the recipe, find the right one. But that has almond flour.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. So, my niece's mom … my sister, is probably an easier way of saying that. My sister has celiac and she has had celiac since before anyone knew what gluten was. And so, when other people say they're gluten intolerant or they have a gluten allergy, I have to explain like, “No, my sister can like get cancer from this. Like she can't have …”

So, we grew up in a household where once she got diagnosed, like my parents' house everything was marked like GF, like there'd be a gluten-free peanut butter and this. So, this is all to say we tend to bake a lot with almond flour when I'm baking with my niece for that exact reason because almond flour is gluten free because it's from almonds.

But that's really the only one I've used other than like wheat flour and things like that.

You mentioned pie. I want to circle back to pies because I'm a huge pie guy. So, what are some of the best or maybe even most unique pies that you have made so far?

Jude Atwood:

Well, I found a recipe for a watermelon key lime pie. I mean, it's a custard pie, but the watermelon juice sort of cuts the key lime sweetness a little bit.

I've never really done a competition in terms of baking, but I decided to do the Orange County Fair pie competition. And I practiced a whole bunch of variations on blueberry pie. And I think blueberry cardamon pie with … technically, I don't think the look of the pie mattered for the judging. But I wanted to do like a mid-century lattice just to be fancy.

And so, I made like eight or nine versions of that. And the last one I made was in March, 2020. And then they canceled the fair and then they did not bring back the pie competition for the next two years.

And so, this year I think is the first time they have it. And I have a book coming out and I'm like, “I'm a little busy this summer.”

Adam Sockel:

Well, and we're going to get to book in just a second, but before, I'm just making a note for myself because I'm going to make you send me the recipe for this blueberry … because blueberry and cardamon, those are very much …

You actually mentioned Swedish cakes. There's a Swedish cardamon, like a very famous like cardamon, I want to call it a bun, but it's sort of like a small — it's almost like a cinnamon roll, but it's Swedish and they wrap it.

I'm using my hands. No one's going to see on a podcast. But they wrap it in a very intricate way. But it's a very cardamom heavy Swedish bun.

And I made those once and like discovered my adoration for cardamon. So, I'm just making a note that I'm going to ask you for that when we get done.

Jude Atwood:

Fair. Let the record show Adam is making a rude gesture on camera.

Adam Sockel:

That's right. Exactly.

Jude Atwood:

Not at all. No, and it's funny because I think there are spices that I just didn't grow up with that you kind of discussed. So, cardamon as well. And also, I learned that cardamon and cardamon are like both acceptable pronunciations of that spice.

I made matcha green tea cookies for a fundraiser. And there's another that's it's not the sweetest in the world, but with a little bit of oh gosh, white chocolate chips it sold.

Adam Sockel:

And there's things like tahini, I would never normally think to bake with tahini or make like tahini cookies, but because I too, am obsessed with Great British Baking Show, I start to see people use that in stuff and I've been like, “Oh, that's a really interesting way.”

So, I know what you mean. Like that's been one of my favorite things I think about baking is finding new flavors that, like you said, we’re both Midwesterners, when we grew up, like there's just stuff you start to discover that is really interesting.

So, for you, this will transition into your book in just a second, but how do you look, seek to find new recipes to try with how much you've done?

Jude Atwood:

Oh, I'm really basic. And so, if I see something in a show that I'm watching or if I read something in a book and it sounds interesting, then I will google the name of the recipe plus the word simple, because I want the first time I make it to be a little bit simple.

But one thing that occurred to me is in addition to discovering new flavors, I realized that like there's stuff I ate when I was a kid that I never see anymore. So, I hunted down rhubarb because that's really hard to find on the West Coast. And I did a whole bunch of rhubarb stuff.

But no, I would say the inspiration comes from like I saw the play, Dinner with Friends last month and the characters talk about this great cake that they're eating. And I was like, “Oh, I'm sure it's real. I'll try that.”

And once we made a dish that we saw on anime show … it's a strange show. It was on Netflix called Food Wars! And we did this vegetable terrain, which was super … like five layers of different sort of gelatinized pureed vegetables.

And so, it's beautiful, but I wouldn't do it again because oh my gosh, it took all day.

Adam Sockel:

I feel like there's so many things in cooking that you just describing it, I can hear how complicated it is. But there's other things that I don't think people realize. Like I was at my brother's house this weekend and he made potato salad, it was really good.

I was like, “Jay, why don't you ever make potatoes salad?” And he goes, “Because this was such a process.” Just like things you don't think about like for potato salad, you have to boil it, let it cool down, cut it up, make the … like it was very interesting that you see things that look very simple and are extremely elaborate.

So, I want to ask something I ask every author who comes on like if slash how this has influenced your writing. And this found love of baking, does this come into play when you're starting to think about writing?

And you mentioned you have your first novel coming out, which we’re going to talk about in just a second.

Jude Atwood:

Well, I wish it had a more direct connection to my writing because that would really make sense. But I think in some ways, both of them can be kind of a solitary hobby. And I think both are ways to kind of show off.

And of all the sort of personalities people can have, I think as a … I was a middle child, the second of four, and I think I was always looking for ways to show off. And I think that writing and baking both kind of play into that.

And I also, kind of like that baking as opposed to cooking is something you could often do the day before. Like I like to stay up late and roll out the pie crust and I've always been a night owl. And so, rather than having to get up and get everything ready for a meal, I like to kind of be like, “Okay, everything's in place.”

And I think writing, I tend to write in coffee shops, but I like to kind of be in my own space. And so, yeah, I'd say there's that.

And then I wish that there were more baked goods in the book that I just wrote so that I can be like, “Yeah, there's …” But next time I'll think about synchronicity.

Adam Sockel:

And that's okay. So, you wrote a middle grade novel called Maybe There Are Witches and there are lots of, I've seen like middle grade like graphic novels and things that do have food in them. So, like you said that it could be the second time around.

But for my listeners, we're recording this at the end of May. Your book comes out on June 13th. So, can you kind of introduce them to your new novel and sort of where you got the idea from?

Jude Atwood:

For sure. Well, the pitch of Maybe There Are Witches is 13 year old girl moves to a small town in Illinois and she discovers a hidden diary that belonged to her great-great-great grandmother who was executed for witchcraft in the 19th Century.

And then as she starts to discover hidden messages directly to her, (the diary) she realizes that she and her new friends are the only people who can avert a deadly catastrophe. So, it's a little bit of a supernatural adventure.

And I actually got the idea years ago. I'm embarrassed how long it took me to finish the book. But I went to film school many years ago and so, I've always had like a list of like movie ideas and just sort of things that may seem to take shape.

And so, this came from a list of horror movie ideas. I thought it would be kind of creepy if someone found a book in a house that they had never lived in before that contained messages to them.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. And look, first off, when you sent me like in first a message on Instagram, you're like, “Hey, I'd love to come on and talk about this.” Like when I looked at the book, I'm such a huge like witchy book fan, so as immediately embed.

But also, a good friend of mine, Mallory O’Meara, who has been on the show a couple times, we both discuss how much we love books about books. So, you've got that as well.

Like I totally agree with you. I feel like there's so many wonderful horror stories, horror books, horror movies that do involve that idea of like discovering a mysterious book that you definitely shouldn't open and then definitely shouldn't read out loud.

So, thinking through having all these stories and you said going to film school previously and you're a professor now, how did you decide to turn this into a middle grade novel? Was there ever envisioning writing it for a different age, or?

I'm always interested to hear why authors chose the kind of outlet that they did for their story.

Jude Atwood:

It's wild that you say that because when I started, I really thought I was writing a young adult novel. And I mean, I guess as a layperson, the distinction is sort of subtle that I think most people will say YA to refer to sort of everything that's not a adult …

By the way, I'll pause and say what I've learned over the last few months is that the only people who refer to adult books and adult literature when they're talking about just novels is people who write kids’ books because we always try to make it …

But no, I wrote it and the kids were a year older in the first draft and I tried to get an agent and I was queer. And one of the things that people suggest is you need to have recent, comparable, successful books to compare yours to.

And I respect that. I think everybody thinks like, “Oh, what I've done is genius and there's no comparison,” but I think that's not practical.

And so, I was reading a lot of YA books and I realized like, “Oh, this is not what I've written.” YA literature is really often very serious and intense. And I wrote an adventure about some kids in a small town. So, I rewrote it again. So, it was kind of an accidental middle grade book.

But I mean, I knew what I liked when I was growing up. And then I finished it during the pandemic because I don't know if you know about this, but we had a lot of time in our hands.

Adam Sockel:

Well, we did.

Jude Atwood:

And so, I'm like, “I have to. I'm going to go …” And I did the least baking during the pandemic because it's so hard to finish a whole cake or pie when it's just me and my partner.

And so, then I had this novel sitting around for almost a year and I was trying to sell it and I don't think it had ever occurred to me to enter contests. But then I started to enter different contests and I ended up winning one and got a contract out of that.

So, don't tell my publisher, but like I didn't know what middle grade literature was really when I started the book.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. You touched on something about writing that I don't think a lot of readers realize, people who don't do it. You set out to write a holy original story from your heart, or from your brain, or from wherever it is.

Like you want to tell the story and you want it to be so unique and so original and like this thing, like you said, like no one could possibly think of or come up with.

And it very well may be that you end up writing a story like that, but then when you try to pitch it, the first thing they ask you is like, “Well, who's the audience?”

Jude Atwood:

Yeah.

Adam Sockel:

One of those things where it's tough because you have to make it quote unquote “related to something people like to go read or grab while also making it wholly original.”

Like that's something I'm struggling with personally. So, I'm curious if you felt that same way.

Jude Atwood:

Well, I mean, it's super frustrating, but it's also, that there's an expectation that you be very specific. And so, one thing I was advised is don't compare it to a book that's more than five years old, at least when you're trying to sell it.

And so, anything that I read growing up that was obviously an influence on me … I loved Ellen Raskin and The Westing Game. And she passed away in the ‘80s. Like there are no recent books there to compare it to. But it was exciting learning about what the new stuff that's going on.

And just to touch on the other thing you said though is that I think maybe because I was a film student, one of the things, it's not that as a writer, you're necessarily imitating the stuff that you're seeing and reading.

But I think sometimes at least for me, getting a film degree, there was a lot of talk about structure and I had to take a story structure class and screenwriting class. And so, I think in terms of like, well, what do I want people to feel at this point?

And so, sometimes I feel like I'm trying to steal a feeling from somebody else's work. And so, it's not like I'm plagiarizing, it's just like, “Oh wow, there's a real, I want to shock here.”

Adam Sockel:

I don't know that I've ever heard anyone say it that way. I want to steal a feeling that you get from another story because I know exactly what you mean. Like there are so many books that … and I talk about them a lot.

Like The Starless Sea by Erin Morgenstern, and this book, Lillian Boxfish Takes a Walk by Kathleen Rooney. They have a feeling, they have like whether it's a nostalgia or a like moment where you just can't believe where like a twist or a turn, that is such a incredible way of thinking about it.

And I feel like your book it reminds me of those middle grade books I used to read when I was a kid. Like whether it was like the Earl Stein books or things like that where I was excited to turn the next page, but also, like kind of doing it with like your hand over one eye sort of a situation.

Like I know that's such a good way of this, this isn't even a question. I just really love that stealing a feeling, that's a really wonderful way of putting it.

When you decided, okay, like you said, “I'm going to write this story, I'm going to enter some contests.” And then these things. Like when you realize the story began to take shape, what are the next steps for people who might not know?

Because like I said, there's artwork involved and there's finding an agent. Like what were the steps you took after you wrote this to have it go from an idea in your brain to a book that you're now, getting ready to share with the world?

Jude Atwood:

Well, that's a good question. And I guess the first thing to know is, oh my gosh, it's frustrating. Like it's just an incredibly frustrating time.

And I ended up not getting an agent. Although one thing I sort of realized is that when I was pitching it as a middle grade book, I got a lot more nibbles, a lot more of like, “Oh, can you send us more of a manuscript?”

But the big thing that I really realized during the whole promotion process is that no one reads it. That I just wanted someone to read the whole book. And obviously, that's a big ask.

I think that especially for people who work in publishing, like it's just they have to read a ton. And I just wanted someone and they only read the first 10 pages for the most part. And so, I just kept rewriting the first 10 pages over and over trying to make …

And I think that if I were famous or if I were really well known, I might try a book that begins slowly and that kind of eases into a story and I thought, “Oh no, I have to really hook a stranger who wants to say no immediately.”

And so, I think that's something I just think about from the writing process and from the promotion process.

Adam Sockel:

So, I know this is like such a tough question to ask authors who are just promoting their book as it's coming out. Are you like thinking through what may come after this or is that something you're just not at yet?

Jude Atwood:

God. Well, the other thing I guess to know is that the process from signing a contract to publishing is incredibly long and I think at a major publisher, it's a year. And I’m with an indie publisher, Regal House Publishing and their label Fitzroy Books, and their production process is two years. And so, I have had a lot of time.

And what's funny is that the actual editing from my end, I get just a few weeks to kind of go over changes and then you send it in and then you wait. And so, I felt like I will kick myself if I didn't finish something else.

And I will say I did not, but I'm halfway through a follow up. It's not a sequel, but I decided I'll stick with this and try another scary middle grade book. And so, I don't have a title yet, but I'm excited. And it also, is set in rural Illinois, so I've decided I want to have a little genre there.

Adam Sockel:

Yeah. And so, I am also, curious because you also, do artwork, you paint and you draw cartoons. Did you do the artwork for the book?

Jude Atwood:

I did not. And my publisher actually asked if I wanted to, which I thought was very flattering. But my mindset was since this is my first book, I don't want the person who designs my cover to be doing it for the first time in their life.

It's funny though because we had a little Zoom meeting with other writers who are kind of in the same front list season, the summer 2023. And I think it's because the publisher just wants to get all the questions out of the way at the same time.

And the first thing they said is, “You do not have any control over what is on the cover of your book.” Like we fill out a worksheet, but I think they wanted everyone to know that you do not get to nitpick what the cover of the book looks like.

Adam Sockel:

That's so interesting. That is something I never would've thought about. But having now, interviewed and chatted with a couple of different authors from Regal, that's really interesting. I'm going to have to pick people's brains about that afterwards. I like that a lot.

So, I always end each conversation by asking the author for a recommendation of some kind. It can be a book, it can be a recipe, it could be … I'm not going to let you give everyone else blueberry cardamon pie that's going to be mine, I'm going to steal.

But yeah, what is something you want to recommend to my listeners that you think they should know more about?

Jude Atwood:

Oh my gosh. I am going to recommend something that I think everybody knows about, but it's the kind of thing that it has to occur to you to do it. I recommend going to see a play and in particular go see some local theater.

It took me a good while after the pandemic to start going out. But even in small towns, even in small communities, there's often like some type of local theater.

And one thing I learned sort of talking to my students is that lots of them, it just has never occurred to them in their lives to check that out. And so, I feel like you might get a good story, you might get something you enjoy, but it's also, sort of a communal experience.

So, I guess that's my recommendation.

Adam Sockel:

I love that. Jude, I am so excited for your book and I am so excited for everyone to go check it out. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Jude Atwood:

Thank you so much for having me.

[Music Playing]

Adam Sockel:

Passions & Prologues is proud to be an Evergreen podcast, and was created by Adam Sockel. It was produced by Adam Sockel and Sean Rule-Hoffman.

And if you are interested in this podcast and any other Evergreen podcast, you can go to evergreenpodcasts.com to discover all the different stories we have to tell.