Bonus Episode #3 – Gather Your Starlings with Jen Dotsey

Annmarie Kelly:

I've been lucky enough to have lots of great colleagues. Esosa, and Abby and Kim, and Terry, and Michelle, and Gail, and Jessica, and Sue, and Christie, and Brigid, and Sarah, and I could go on and on.

I've worked jobs all across the country with folks who've shown up and brought their best day in and day out. But one of my favorite friends from across the decades is today's guest, Jen Dotsey.

I worked at a coffee shop during high school and filed music in the choir library during college. But still, when I look back on my first full-time adult jobs, I was a baby. I was 23 or 24, and tasked with the wellbeing of students who were 17 or 18, almost my age.

Every morning was a new chance to lose my way, and every afternoon was a time to try to find it again, to grab a cup of coffee and figure out what the heck I was going to teach tomorrow.

And throughout all that, Jen Dotsey was someone who became a lifeline. Jen and I conducted the school acapella group and chaperoned the senior prom, and we gave the cringey sex talk at the sophomore retreat.

Outside of school, we went salsa dancing and ate dim sum and hosted both our first and second grownup Thanksgivings together, including a completely frozen turkey incident that resulted in apple pie and mashed potatoes as our first course.

Once on kind of a whim, we even booked airplane tickets and flew to France on a Tuesday because we could. Jen filled my days with possibility and hope and love, and I'm glad to introduce you to her today.

Jen is an English and theology teacher and a community minister in Seattle, Washington. She likes coffee, rain, and any and all witchy vibes. When not reading, writing, or enriching the lives of teenagers, you can probably find her curled up with her cat or casting spells out her window.

Jen Dotsey, welcome to Wild Precious Life. I would love for you to introduce yourself, and then if you can think of it, what is our meet-cute? How did we meet?

Jen Dotsey:

Okay. First, I'm going to tell you that I'm Jen Dotsey. I am a high school teacher at Seattle Prep in Seattle, Washington. I am a transplant from the East Coast because I've always wanted to live in a witchy place, and I can’t figure out a way to immigrate to Scotland. So, the Pacific Northwest is the closest I can get.

There’s really good coffee here and I really love rain way more than anybody else who lives here. So, my colleagues, when it's raining, they look at me and they're like, “Are you happy?” Like I wished this on them. And I'm like, “Dude, I didn't make you move here.”

Annmarie Kelly:

Annmarie Kelly:

You don't control them.

Jen Dotsey:

“Didn't make you stay here.”

Annmarie Kelly:

Yet.

Jen Dotsey:

I mean, I kind of do except in summer. Summertime, it's always like wildfires and constant sunshine.

Actually, I think that you have rebuked me for complaining on social media. I think I once I posted a picture of clear blue sky and I was like, “Enough.” And you were like, “Are you complaining about blue skies? Go see a movie. You're a nut.” And I was like, “Correct. This is …”

But our meet-cute was when you were … so, I don't remember like our meeting, what I do remember is that the end of our first year teaching together, we were bidding each other goodbye for the summer. Or not goodbye, but like we were ending the year. And I was like, “I love you.”

And it just sort of came flying out of my mouth and I totally did and do. And I think that like that friendship love that just — I depended on you for everything that first year. Like teaching was becoming something that I loved so much, and it was because of the way you taught me to see it with child eyes and taught your students to see the world that way too. So, and I'm still doing it 20 odd years later.

Annmarie Kelly:

I forgot we were Wee Baby teachers together.

Jen Dotsey:

We were, we were.

Annmarie Kelly:

Just muddling through in a what was, to us, a foreign land.

Jen Dotsey:

Well, you at least, had substituted?

Annmarie Kelly:

Yes, I had been fired.

Jen Dotsey:

I hadn't done anything. I just showed up like, “Probably, I couldn't do this.”

Annmarie Kelly:

I had been fired from a substituting job. Yes, I had experience.

Jen Dotsey:

Goodbye hard pants, soft pants only.

Annmarie Kelly:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Alright. I could reminisce with you forever and that actually is probably the best thing to do, and I will steep back into it.

The reason we're talking today is because I read this book called The Emotionally Exhausted Woman and felt very seen. And one of the things that the author, Nancy Colier, talks about is just like, it turns out you're more in charge of your joy and happiness than you think.

Yes, a lot of crud comes down the pipeline. Yes, a lot of your jobs require stuff that you don't want to do, but you can also become like the victim of the story that you tell about yourself and forget that you do have things that you're in charge of.

So, instead of lamenting the fact that I have all these people I love and I never have time to see, well, actually, you just sort of make time. Like I waste time on all kinds of things. And I don't want to like bother the people I love. I don't want to text you and be like, “Hey, do you have a time for a call?”

Because what if you don't? And what if you're busy? And what if you-

Jen Dotsey:

Then I say no.

Annmarie Kelly:

But then like I don't want to make you feel like … and I just get over that.

And so, I thought what I'm going to do is I'm going to take some of the advice in this book and I'm going to pursue what I love. And what I love is you. And so, I'm-

Jen Dotsey:

Me. Best book ever.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah. And I actually wanted to pick your brain about some of the questions in this book, because one of my favorite things about that first year that we spent teaching was I remember the feeling of just bouncing an idea off of you. “Hey, I'm thinking about doing this, what do you think?”

And sometimes you'd be like, “That's amazing.” And other times you'd be like, “That is horse shit. Don't do that.” And I loved it that you were just like this barometer that I sometimes needed to say an idea out loud to you to like find my way into a text or working with a kid.

Or just the like I'd have that small voice, but I wasn't sure if I could trust it because was that … and I just remember you being my barometer on some of that.

So, I thought I would get some of your take on this book too.

Jen Dotsey:

Oh God, it was completely mutual. Yeah, take me to the book. What are we talking about?

Annmarie Kelly:

So, her very first question is she just says, “Who takes care of you?” And I'm interested to hear your answer to this. Who takes care of you, Jen Dotsey?

Jen Dotsey:

Well, my still small voice inside says, “Me. I do it.” I mean, I think to some degree, that's trauma speaking. Like that's like my inner voice saying, or my inner kindergarten of inner children saying, “Yeah, it's always been me.”

And I think that that's not true in that, it's also always been like soul friends, like that place of authenticity, that like knowing it's there, knowing that I'm the kind of person that somebody like you wants to choose to spend time with. Like that's a kind of care.

So, it's not always a person. I am not partnered, which means that I don't have the support of a partner, but I also don't have the work of caring for a partner. I have a cat to take care of and that's enough shoveling shit for me.

But I feel like after much therapy … like I am a once-a-week therapy person, I have clinical depression, I've had it for a really long time. And I like invest time and money into the drugs and therapy that I require.

So, I guess my therapist to some degree also, takes care of me and teaches me how to ask for what I need. And I also feel like you were saying earlier, like I don't want to bug people. And I am so happy to report that I have let that go. Like I will bug people and it's their job to tell me that they don't have space.

Often, I will lead with, “Hey, I am having a shitty day. Do you have some space for me to like be a misanthrope in your company?” And almost always, we don't even talk about, or we talk just very little about like what the problem is because I'm just so happy to be with my soul friends.

And I don't turn to you enough about that. And I will say that that is something that is also kind of, I've been socialized to believe that parents aren't people I can turn to with my nonsense because I know that they have a lot that they're already dealing with.

And so, I think when my friends are married with children, I don't turn to them as much. I kind of answer my requests for space for them and that's not fair. I shouldn't do that. So, yeah, after this conversation, I'm just going to bother you more. And that's, suck it up, Rie.

Annmarie Kelly:

I can't think about one time ever feeling like you were bothering me. It's always so great to hear from you. But I do think parents, we do broadcast, it's like, “I'm so busy, I have so much to do.”

Jen Dotsey:

And you are.

Annmarie Kelly:

We are and we do, but I don't think that we get to claim busy. Like you teach so many students, you have a huge, huge job that every time I see you doing extra stuff, like helping kids with college applications and also leading this retreat and you do all of this extra stuff. So, I have three kids, I feel like you have 300.

So, giving ourself permission to like believe the other person's a grownup. Like if I say, “Hey, do you have time for a call?” You're either going to say, “Yes,” or you're like, “Ah shit, I wish I did. I have to do this job. It's three hours earlier here, remember?” I'm like, “Oh yeah, because I can't do time changes.”

But like trusting the other person to be an adult. And this is so silly, but you know how when you get a text and you don't respond right away, it's because life is happening. But then when you send a text and someone doesn't respond right away, you know it's because they hate you, right?

Jen Dotsey:

Yes, yes. Very much so. Yes.

Annmarie Kelly:

That they didn't phrase a text right and now, they're not your friend anymore. And you're like, “Oh, I should have said ‘but’ not ‘and.’ Oh no, no.” And I don't even know why I do that, but I get like frozen in the face of, “She didn't answer my text. I guess, maybe we don't love each other anymore.” Which is the dumbest thing. It's like dumb. It's just so stupid.

So, remembering that people don't have to be at your beck and call, especially because they have jobs and lives and it doesn't mean that they don't have time for you.

Jen Dotsey:

No. And you know what helped me a lot with that, is weirdly, the pandemic. Because during the isolation period of the pandemic especially, it became very apparent to me.

Because I was like alone in my house with no human contact for a really long time. To the point where I walked into my bathroom one day, I pointed to my toilet and I said, “You stay there.” That felt important to say. I was like losing my marbles.

And during that time, I realized two things. One was, all the things that I thought were absolute rules about life and givens, no, nonsense. We made all of that up and we can change any of it. And the amount of space that anybody has at any given time for anything was at that time, especially, nil. Like everyone had negative to give.

And like there was just this ocean of need and no one had anything for anyone else. And we were all just existing in that really terrified space. And especially, like if you had a job where you had to kind of keep on tracking, which I did. Like I was trying to care for my students who were very frightened and not able to articulate that.

And then remember that also that I was in Seattle during the beginning of the isolation period. So, I could smell tear gas from my apartment. There were constantly military helicopters overhead because the choppers only like a mile from my house or where the chop was.

And so, I was getting calls from my mom like, “Oh, Elliot Bay burned down. That's so sad.” Like the bookstore. I'm like, “Mom, nothing burned down. I don't know what news channel you're watching that's telling you that I am in the middle of conflagration. I very much am not. Like there's enough going on that's difficult, but you don't need to make extra stuff up to be scared of.”

But I think during that time, I just realized like I can give people so much more grace than I do, and that every time I’m tempted to feel they don't love me anymore or it was something that I did wrong, that that's also a way of not giving grace. That that's me making it about like whether I did things right.

And again, it's about trust. Like if I hurt somebody or annoyed them, they will either tell me about it because it needs to be followed up on, or they will let it go because they're an adult and are able to do that. And I can just trust that that process is going to happen. And if it's not, it's kind of on them. And kind of same thing is true for me. And I think trusting instead of doubting, turns out that's real hard. But I trust you.

Annmarie Kelly:

I trust you too. There's a reason for this friendship.

Hey, another question that's in the book that's sort of tangential to presence, is about like what you want. Like what is it you really want? When you get that question, like what comes to mind? What do you really want?

Jen Dotsey:

I just saw a high school production of Into the Woods and there's a line in it that's something like, “What if you don't know what you want? If you know you can't have what you want, what's the profit in wishing?”

So, like instead of actually knowing what I want, I have all these, like I go into like part of me wants a partner with whom I can share my life. Part of me is like, “Okay, first of all, that's like just socialized patriarchy in your brains. And also, men smell weird. Not all the time, but a good portion of the time. And smells are really important to me. I need to manage my old factory environment.”

So, instead of just thinking like, “Yeah, I would really love that.” I start thinking about, “Well, but what would I actually want?” Like I need to know exactly all the details of it. Like basically, I want somebody I can go on vacation with and like have romantic moments with. And I kind of don't think that person exists.

And so, like for me, thinking about things I want is always about thinking about, “Well, if I know I can't have what I want, what's the profit in wishing.” So, yeah, I get in my own way there a little bit.

But honestly, also, I have a lot of what I want. I wanted to live an independent life. I wanted to be a person with really great friends who believe in me and whom I believe in. And I wanted to have a job that meant something to me. I wanted to fight the man doing all those things.

And so, like when people kind of talk about things like bucket lists and whatnot, I'm like, “I don't feel like I really have one of those.”

Oh, sometimes I'm a little bit sorry that I didn't have a child of my own, but I also am like, “Yeah, but I really like taking naps like when I want.” Sometimes having a cat cramps my style, like I come home from work and she's like, “Meow.” And I'm like, “Not now. Need a minute.”

So, borrowing other people's children like works really great for me and I like having God children and a niece and a nephew I adore. And like being in touch still with so many alums from 20 years of teaching, like the deep friendships I've developed in those populations. Yeah, so, I have a lot of what I want.

Annmarie Kelly:

I think that's fantastic.

Jen Dotsey:

You became my therapist briefly. Sorry.

Annmarie Kelly:

No. I think that we think about wanting or not wanting as like this binary. “I want that, I don't want that.” But like figuring out what's at the root of the wanting. And when you talked about the vacation, like, yeah, I want to go on vacation with somebody I love who wants to do these things that I want.

And I do have a partner and three kids and I'm remembering a vacation you and I took where we didn't know that we had an extra … remember that first year, there was winter break and then there was the other winter break, ski week or something. Where I didn't know that was a thing. And-

Jen Dotsey:

Christmas and then winter break, yeah.

Annmarie Kelly:

So, it’s like we had a break that went into January, and then we had this other break in February that I hadn't read the calendar. And you were like, “We should do something. We should go somewhere. Let's go to Canada, which is close to Seattle.”

And I think I said something like, “Well, I don't want to go to Canada, I've been there. Let's go to France.” And I was just like saying words and you're like, “Okay.” And you went home and checked flights to France.

And I was like, “She just checked flights to France, you can do that?” And you're like, “Here's one that leaves on Tuesday.” “We can't just go to France.” You’re like, “Well, why not?” I’m like, “We have to ask someone.” We didn't have to ask anybody. It turns out you're allowed to go to France, it's just available to you there.

Now, you do have to have the money. But we had jobs for the first time and no time to spend the money. And we went to France for like four and a half days.

And I think there is something gorgeous about someone who teaches you how to say yes to things. And in that case, you helped me say yes to something that I wanted but didn't even know I could have. There's something beautiful about that and having …

I'm just remembering like we took a gorgeous trip to France and we took naps and we ate croissants. But like we had this amazing time and a lot of what you want is available to you, but sometimes you get in your own way, or at least I do.

Jen Dotsey:

Or you feel like you have to plan the like war trip. Like it has to be, we have to take advantage of every moment because France might disappear or we might disappear. And there's that mortality thing again. Like, yeah, those probably will happen. And like that's a lot to hold in our brains. Let's just try to find some flights and see what we can afford and wrangle.

[Music playing]

Annmarie Kelly:

When I think about like what you want, it's also making me think about what you love. But not so much like outward facing, but like what do you love about you?

Jen Dotsey:

Well, many years of therapy later … I think it took me a really long time to figure out like who I really am. Because I think for a long time, I tried to be what other people like made me believe that I needed to be.

I think when we met, like when I was interviewing, I was like all put together in my New Yorker temp job suit. And I probably seemed somewhat like quiet and subdued a little bit in the interview. I probably didn't seem like I was … and I'm not an extrovert. I'm a committed introvert. But I'm not shy.

And I remember once you asked your students something about like there was a character in a story, like who had quiet power, is the way you described them or that they were described. And you were like, “Who do you guys know who has quiet power?” And they said, “Dotsey.” And you told me that. And I was like, “Yeah, that's right. Quiet power.”

But I think in the intervening time … and part of it is that like I saw the way that you had power and that it wasn't quiet. It wasn't, it's not.

Annmarie Kelly:

I am seldom accused of being quiet.

Jen Dotsey:

Yeah. Well, and that's the thing, is that I think I confused introversion and perfection as being like also meaning that I didn't ever make any noise. And I think at this point in my life, like I am kind of known for my joyful obstreperousness. Like I'm a kind of a blunt instrument.

I don't have a lot of political strategic savvy, that is not my gift. I am somebody who is going to complain about stuff in a way that people are like, “Your tone or like the way that that landed was kind of …”

And I'm just kind of like, “Ugh. So, here's the thing guys, I don't think you understand me or hear me or see me when I am trying to make it easy for you and like palatable for you.” So, like I've aged out of that.

Now, I just am going to give you … like and it's generally loving because I'm a loving person, but I'm not here to sugarcoat things. Like if I think something is hurting people, especially, I'm just going to say, “Ooh, I think this is really a problem.” And people don't like that, and I don't need them to.

And that's new and I like that about myself. I like that in so many ways I kind of occupy this space in my world where I feel a little bit like the witch who lives in the cottage at the edge of the woods. Because like she's a little much and we can't like deal with her all the time, but the kids come to visit because they're like, “She tells wicked stories and has great snacks, and sees us in a way that makes us feel like we can do things that we didn't know we could do.”

And so, that's kind of my magic. So, yeah, I guess I like the fact that I'm witchier than I ever realized and that I like that. I wouldn't want to be different. I really appreciate difference because there are things, like I said, that are not in my gift, and I need other people to collaborate with me to get things done.

Because you can't like sculpt a statue with a blunt instrument only, it's not going to happen. But you can get the marble out of the quarry that way. That I don't need to be good at all the different steps. That part of what gives us hope is that we're in community and we don't need to do it alone. In fact, we can't.

And yeah, again, so much therapy, so much. And also, just so much friendship.

Annmarie Kelly:

That is so gorgeous though, you're self-understanding. I'm remembering, I only recently listened to the full Toni Morrison Nobel Prize acceptance speech.

But she basically gives that speech about the woman on the outskirts of town and the truth that she held and the people who came to visit and what they wanted from her, what they took from her, the candor, the no nonsenseness. And even the times that they tried to trick her and say, “Oh, you should say it this way.”

And she talks about writers as being in that cottage on the edge and that you're the storyteller and the truthteller. And it does mean that you are set apart a little bit, but that gives you the perspective. I think of you as always being like a spokesperson. The Lorax spoke for the trees, but I feel like you speak on behalf of anyone who's been wronged or hurt or maligned, you speak on behalf of the kids.

And it's so easy when you work in a high school that we all fall into the same, like, “Oh, there's these groups over here and these groups over here, and that's the way it's always been.” And you are the person who's like, “Nope, I don't have that. Absolutely not. If it was the way, it's going to … it's not going to be like that here.”

And speaking up for anyone who is oppressed or overlooked or silenced. And the courage that it takes to speak up — and I love that you touched on the being liked or not liked, because I know that my need to be liked has got in the way of my willingness to speak truth.

And that is something that I'm working on. That when it comes time to like say the hard thing, the hard true necessary thing, it does mean that in that moment, someone's not going to like you, but so the hell what? Because you're saying the hard truth, the necessary thing, and often on behalf of the person who can't say it themselves or have access to the thing you have access to.

And it has taken me a long time to get there, and that's still something that I struggle with. And I love that about you.

Jen Dotsey:

I feel like I learned how to do it from you. And maybe like those kinds of parts of ourselves, I think especially when you're somebody who has a lot of parts.

And I don't know, because I've never been married, and I've never had children. But I wonder how much like the moves that you've made, the things that you've needed to do in order to care for ailing family members and to be present for kids. Your children are amazing and wonderful and so lucky to have you as a mom.

And I think that there's always parts of moms that get shelved because they have to be. And every time people are like, “Oh, the thing I love about my mom is that she's so selfless.” Like it's my least favorite part of Mother's Day stuff at school, is that like children are like, “I admire my mom because she'll do anything for me and she never thinks of herself.”

And I'm like, “Why do we think that's a good thing? That's terrible. You poor mom.” Let her be a human. She's a human too.

But like I wonder like how much my loneliness has allowed me to have more access to more of my stuff. Yeah, maybe we really can't have it all. I don't know.

Annmarie Kelly:

One of my favorite, favorite things about you is how well you read and write. And also, one of my favorite, favorite things about you is how well, even when you haven't read a book, you somehow know what it's about.

Because one of the things she talks about in this book is the word “selfless.” And I realize I'd never thought about what that word meant. I'm like, when you grow up in a faith tradition, you're taught like, “Oh, women give and give and give and give and that's what we are.”

And I literally had to break down the word “selfless.” It's not actually hard to do. You don't have to be French or Latin to do it. Like it just means like without a self. And why would you ever-

Jen Dotsey:

You can’t see it, because you've been taught not to.

Annmarie Kelly:

Why would you ever want to be someone who's without a self? And as women, and you're right, especially as parents, we are taught that what you should do is like eat the food, but then throw it up into their mouths like the baby bird.

And that is nonsensical because at the end of that, you're hungry and hangry. And then you've also demonstrated that to your sons and daughters that what it means to be a woman is to be without a self. Which is that what you want for them? Absolutely not. I don't want to model that.

Jen Dotsey:

No. And the thing is, I think none of the kids have just one model. And so, we don't have to be all the things. They're getting it somewhere.

And at the same time, I think it's so wonderful when mothers are just like, “I'm tired, I'm sick of your shit.” Like when we can be authentic. And I do the same thing as a teacher, sometimes I'm just like, “You guys, I got to be honest with you. Like I have two friends who've been diagnosed with like really tough diagnoses in October, and I am distracted. I'm not present.”

“And I like to be present (that's usually something I'm pretty natural at) and I can't do it. And I'm not trying to like lay it all on you, but you need to know the context I'm in. And I hope you'll share with me the context you're in when it's hard for you to focus.”

And yeah, like I just don't need to be the same way all the time. I have almost like a confessional impulse though. I think that I'm a bad liar. So, I'm always like, “Here's all of the truth. There. Now, it's all on the table. Now, I don't have to worry about it.”

Annmarie Kelly:

And I wish I was a bad liar. I, it turns out, am a good liar.

Jen Dotsey:

Great liar. One of the greatest. One of the greats.

Annmarie Kelly:

Something I'm also working on.

Jen Dotsey:

Oh, but see, that's the thing, is that like isn't it part of what we can … like I'm a blunt instrument, you're a great liar. Like actually, that turns out to be really important for strategy to tell some of the truth or a version of the truth, and to have that be able to be heard.

I remember taking a great class on American radicalism and being taught that the problem with radicalism is either you are true blue and people are, “It's too much,” or you kind of make concessions and then it's not radical anymore.

And that either way it's going to flame out. And yeah, I think that there's room for all the different kinds. Like I think we can work on our shit. And some of that is just becoming aware of it and making it intentional as opposed to accidental.

Annmarie Kelly:

We talked to Ryan Lee Wong, who's a debut author, and he wrote Which Side Are You On. And one of the things he talked about was how activists struggle to sustain that fire that many of these movements are born when kids are 22 and 23 and they've got this fire and this idealism. And it's just like you said, like it's big and it's huge.

But in order to sustain it, you do have to like work within the existing paradigms. And that does feel less radical. And you have to put on shoes, and you have to cut your hair, and you have to like wear deodorant or whatever it is that you don't want to conform-

Jen Dotsey:

Hard pants.

Annmarie Kelly:

Hard pants. And you can't do both of those things. You can't both be like within and without. And so, one of the things he talked about was the importance of community. That you can't as an individual solve a systemic problem. You can't as an individual, fight these communal, things that are so much bigger than you. That you do need other people to do that.

Jen Dotsey:

Do you know about the starlings?

Annmarie Kelly:

Birds?

Jen Dotsey:

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Get ready to have your mind blown. I wish I had the visual, but okay, a murmuration of starlings is that cloud of birds that moves, like it's an organism. And scientists have studied that because they're like, “How do they do that? Like that's looks very choreographed and it's not.”

And what they found out is that what a starling does is they pay attention to their seven closest starlings. And they can move the whole group that way.

And I think maybe part of what you're doing in this series, is you're reaching out to some of your starlings who help you to know where the group is going, and maybe what we're all doing is moving toward hope because we can't always change the matrix within in which we are, but we can dance through it and over it, and be together in it.

And I mean, let's get real, like they do that to avoid predators. Like some of the starlings got get eaten. And that's just that starling life.

But I think that there's something really beautiful about knowing that when we have community, it has a huge reach. We just can't always see that far. We can see our seven starlings and if we keep our attention there and just trust that the rest of it's happening.

And I think what you said about like that students sometimes have this big bright, like young activists have this huge hope and vigor. One of the things that I'm noticing at this point in late stage pandemic is that they don't, they're scared. They're really scared and they're hopeless.

And a friend of mine, Liz Borgen, is the librarian at my school. She said, “They don't trust adults right now because we absolutely screwed everything up. Like they are looking at how we have handled the pandemic, they're looking at what's happening with our democracy and they're like, ‘Adults are a joke. They are doing a terrible job with things that are imperiling, literally, the planet.’”

And so, I think that's a really sad thing that like a lot of students right now seem to me to be in a place where they're like, “I got to get mine because nobody's going to help me.” And I think that teaching folks to have hope, to have starlings, to know that they have starlings, to work in community, that's one of the best gifts we can give one another and them right now.

Because yeah, there's been a whole lot of people trying to get theirs and that's an ugly way to live, I think. So, yes, if you're listening to this and that's the way you live, I'm judging you because I'm the witch in the edge of forest and I get to do that.

Annmarie Kelly:

But you're also one of my seven favorite starlings and you're also someone who I look left and see, “Oh, hey, we're turning now.” “Okay, we're going … oh, no. Okay.” “Oh, we're going over there.” And I will follow my seven starlings.

And you're absolutely right. I think that it's too hard to keep track of them all. But we can keep … your seven starlings aren't the same as mine. And so, now, we've got 14 or 13, if I'm doing that math right. And we can do the movement that way.

Okay. So, this is a fill in the blank. If I wasn't a high school teacher, I would be a …

Jen Dotsey:

Writer, maybe. I don't know. I feel like writer if I had enough money and space to be able to like do the stuff. I mean, I did in MFA and I had a job the whole time and I spent most of the time doing the job and not … like I was teaching creative writing while I was trying to do it. And I just need people to leave me alone to be able to make art. Ah, that's not filling in the blank. Okay, next question.

Annmarie Kelly:

That’s a long blank.

Jen Dotsey:

I know. I'm sorry.

Annmarie Kelly:

I think that if and when you decide to be a writer, we are all here for it. And so, put a pin in that because-

Jen Dotsey:

Will you have me back?

Annmarie Kelly:

Yes. Anytime.

Jen Dotsey:

Love it.

Annmarie Kelly:

Alright. I don't know, you might have already answered this in your forest home. What is something quirky that folks don't always know about you? A like, a love, a pet peeve. How long do we have?

Jen Dotsey:

Okay. Here's the thing about me, is that I am very quirky and none of it's secret. It's like I'm a driver for NASCAR and like instead of having advertisements plastered all over my uniform and car, I have information about all my quirks.

Like outer space is not interesting to me and I really like bumblebees and like there's a million things that are quirky about me and they're all available at the public library for people to access. Secrets are not my thing.

Annmarie Kelly:

Alright, let's do music. What's one of your go-to songs?

Jen Dotsey:

Ooh, this is a song that people might not know, so I'm glad to recommend it. It's called White Flag and it's by the band, Joseph.

Annmarie Kelly:

Joseph, White Flag. I don't know this song, I'm going to link to it.

Jen Dotsey:

Yeah, that's why I picked it.

Annmarie Kelly:

Excellent. Is it fast?

Jen Dotsey:

It’s a new one.

Annmarie Kelly:

Is it poppy? Is it grunge? What is it?

Jen Dotsey:

It's like a folk anthem. And part of how it goes or the lyrics are like, “I'll be an army, you're not going to stop me coming through.”

Annmarie Kelly:

I love it.

Jen Dotsey:

“Burn the white flag.”

Annmarie Kelly:

I love it.

Jen Dotsey:

And yeah, I think especially as somebody who suffers from depression and during perimenopause, depression can get … oh wow, like the dark thoughts.

Annmarie Kelly:

Big feelings.

Jen Dotsey:

And so, sometimes, I need to remind myself that I am committed to burning the white flag. We're not doing that.

Annmarie Kelly:

I'm going to look that up right after this. Excellent.

Jen Dotsey:

Please do that. You're going to love it.

Annmarie Kelly:

Okay, this is a book question, and we could do an hour on books. So, let me miss-

Jen Dotsey:

Okay. I will fill in the blank.

Annmarie Kelly:

Just let me miss some of your … like what are some of your favorites? Either you buy them all the time for people or you just like, “Oh, I love this and no one else does.” Like what do you have for me here?

Jen Dotsey:

Okay. Speed round. A book I've reread recently, and I never do that is Wolf Hall by Hillary Mantel. I love her so much.

Annmarie Kelly:

I can't believe she passed away.

Jen Dotsey:

She's perfection in historical fiction mode. A book I've read recently that I think everyone should read is How the Word Is Passed by Clint Smith.

Annmarie Kelly:

Clint Smith. Yes. Amazing.

Jen Dotsey:

He's a genius. But also, whenever a poet writes prose, I make a point of reading it. They have a way of helping me see the world that I love in poetry. But yeah, and that book of course, is about the way that we teach about slavery.

And I just think the way he writes about the way we teach about slavery at different locations is so incredibly … and it's so poetic because he takes us to each location, describes what it's like to drive there on the freeway. Like he's not just in the location, he's transporting us around, and helping us to be there in that way. So, I love that.

Annmarie Kelly:

Oh, and what obligation do we have to our history? When he talks about us standing in a Confederate Cemetery. That you can both go to a place to grieve the loss of ancestors and also be honest about what they were good at and what is no longer yours and does not serve you.

That you can tell an honest story about the people who came before you. My Italian uncle was racist. He was, and I can say that. He also was incredibly generous and loving. But I can say I am going to carry on his generosity, and I am going to slough off the racism.

That we are allowed to do that. That we don't own what they did, but we are responsible to see what it was and walk differently. And to be in the Confederate Cemetery with Clint Smith. And I mean, he talks about it. That, “Well, if I acknowledge what they did, they are monsters and that would make me a monster.” And no, no, no, no, no. You're not the monster. You're not.

Jen Dotsey:

I can talk about this forever and people should read the book, Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning. It's exactly about this.

Annmarie Kelly:

I could do books with you all day. Movies, television. What have you watched lately that you love? What do you escape into? What's something you love forever?

Jen Dotsey:

I've kind of moved away from movies because I've never been a short story girl. I'm more a novel girl, and I feel like series have a novelistic quality to them. Whereas a movie is much more a short story kind of format, unless it's like an epic and we don't really make those anymore.

Although, I will say I saw The Woman King. And I just think it is so magical to live in a time when we can see in a regular movie theater, not an art house movie theater, African civilizations. Like their architecture and culture. And like we get to see some stuff that we never learned about. Like I just think that's amazing.

So, go see The Woman King. And the performances are all spectacular. And yeah, just all those gorgeous, strong … oh, amazing.

Annmarie Kelly:

Alright, last two. What's your favorite ice cream and or dessert that you want instead of ice cream?

Jen Dotsey:

I really love fish food. The Ben & Jerry's one. I think that my sustaining love is stuff like butter pecan strawberry, but only if it's Häagen-Dazs because I'm like that. But yeah, those are some of my favs.

Annmarie Kelly:

Alright. And then last one. If we were to take a picture of you really happy and doing something that you love, what would we see you doing?

Jen Dotsey:

Look at my face. Screenshot, we're in it. We're living it. We're doing it right now.

Annmarie Kelly:

You're going to make me cry.

Jen Dotsey:

Good. We all need to cry more. Crying is good. Ah, no, I think just moments like this where I get to just look into your eyes and you look happy.

Like one of the things that I try to do … I learnt this during my isolation period of the pandemy, was I needed to say to myself, “This is happiness.” Like when I’m reading my book and I have my candles lit and I have a cup of tea and my cat is here, this is happiness.

Like to name it, because I think sometimes, we’re like striving for some like abstract perfect happiness. We’re doing it. This is it right here.

Annmarie Kelly:

This is happiness, my starling. Thank you so much for making time. I love you for it.

Jen Dotsey:

Oh my gosh. I would do this every single day.

[Music playing]

Annmarie Kelly:

Thanks for listening to this bonus episodes, everyone. And huge thanks to Jen Dotsey, Melissa McCaverty, and Sarah Frauenzimmer. Beautiful humans all, and some of my most favorite starlings.

If it’s been a minute since you’ve reached out to your starlings near or far, grab the phone, shoot them a text, give them a call. Go do whatever it is that’s going to give you joy and light today. You won’t be sorry.

Voiceover:

Wild Precious Life is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. Special thanks to executive producers, Gerardo Orlando and Michael DeAloia. Producer, Sarah Willgrube and audio engineer, Ian Douglas. Be sure to subscribe and follow us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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