Making The Most of The Time We Have

Join author, educator, and learner, Annmarie Kelly as she laughs, cries, and kvetches with the writers, musicians, entrepreneurs, and wanderers who inspire all of us to reach beyond our divisions and discover what it means to be wild, precious, and brave.

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Embrace Self-Love with Megan Logan

Embrace Self-Love with Megan Logan

Megan Logan is a therapist, mom, and author of the SELF-LOVE WORKBOOK FOR WOMEN. In this episode, we open up about past struggles and current opportunities. Annmarie and Megan also discuss nude beaches, skydiving, and how to embrace the best version of yourself in every phase of life.

Episode Sponsors:

Visible Voice books, in Tremont, Ohio. With a glass of wine or cup of joe in hand, readers can explore a curated selection of new and secondhand books. Drop by or shop online at visiblevoicebooks.com

The Terrateer Club – A holistic online community helping parents raise kids who will care for the earth and change the world. Find fun activities for kids and weekly parent support at theterrateerclub.com

Books, films, and music discussed in this episode:

Self-Love Workbook for Women, by Megan Logan

The Bluest Eye, by Toni Morrison

Brett Young – “In Case You Didn’t Know”

Brandi Carlile – “The Mother”

Schindler’s List Trailer

Follow Megan!

Instagram: @meganloganlcsw

Facebook: Megan Logan, LCSW

Website: www.meganloganlcsw.com



Annmarie Kelly:
Wild Precious Life is brought to you in part by Visible Voice Books in Tremont, Ohio. With a glass of wine or cup of Joe in hand, readers can explore a curated selection of new and secondhand books. Drop by or shop online at VisibleVoiceBooks.com. And we're brought to you in part by The Terrateer Club, a holistic online community helping parents raise kids who will care for the earth and change the world. Find fun activities for kids and weekly parent support at theterrateerclub.com.

Annmarie Kelly:
Is it me, or is it harder to make friends as we get older? When I was younger, it was easy. I went to happy hour with folks from work, or I met some of my best friends at church. Boom, easy. When I had kids, I showed up for the first day at preschool and befriended the other 10 moms and dads in the pickup line. Our kids were pals so we were pals too. We invited one another to birthday parties, and barbecues, and later book clubs and road trips. Wham, instant posse. But these days, there are no happy hours after work and my kids are older, they don't love it when I glom onto their friend groups. They need to forge their own paths and I need to find my own people too.

Annmarie Kelly:
All of this is funny since compared to my younger more self-conscious self, I actually feel more likable, even lovable more than I was back then. I'm more comfortable in my own skin and yet, something about being of a mature age means that I have forgotten a little about how to make friends. And maybe if I'm being honest, I have also had to work a little harder to be a friend to myself. I was thinking about all of this recently when I was working through the Self-Love Workbook by today's guest, Megan Logan.

Annmarie Kelly:
I was in a hurry so at first I was just going to skim the workbook, cheat a little, cut some corners. But I tell you, a bunch of her questions really got to me. Do I sacrifice my wants and needs for other people? Do I work harder to make others happy and neglect myself? Do I love my body? How do I take up space? I realized that part of forming friendships with others is making friends with myself. Part of being kind to others means being kind and compassionate to me. The pandemic has made it easy to isolate ourselves and to be distrustful of strangers. And sometimes we're right to be cautious, but none of this should make us distrust ourselves. Looking inward is an important part of how we look outward and better embracing others begins with embracing ourselves. So my friends, let me tell you a little more about today's guest.

Annmarie Kelly:
Megan Logan has spent more than two decades providing mental health therapy in a variety of settings including domestic violence and sexual assault centers, foster care agencies, community based mental health programs, hospice, and currently private practice. Megan is the author of the Self-Love Workbook for Women which is full of questions and exercises to release self-doubt, build self-compassion and embrace who you are. Helping others heal through challenges and adversities has given her wisdom and insight on how to become unstuck and move forward in life. When not providing therapy, Megan enjoys spending time outdoors with family, hunting for sharks teeth, and reading. Well, Megan Logan, welcomes to Wild Precious Life.

Megan Logan:
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Annmarie Kelly:
We're talking about self-love and something about this time of year when we're turning the calendar over and looking back and looking ahead, something about this time of year often makes people contemplative about, who am I? And is that all I'm ever going to be? And what else is it that I want for myself and the people I love? And I really was thinking about that as I was doing my work ahead of today. So thank you for writing this book and we're going to totally chat about it, but I know folks haven't hung out with your family members like I have. So why don't we give them a chance to get to know you? So would you mind Megan, just telling us the wandering story of you?

Megan Logan:
Well, I was born in 1976. I come from a family of five and I have a twin sister and an older sister who I believe that you went to college with, which is kind of a small world. And I guess the book is really what's kind of given me some exposure to getting to do podcast interviews and that was a really interesting opportunity that came my way. I wasn't looking to write a book, I have no experience writing a book, I don't consider myself an author.

Megan Logan:
I'm a therapist and I have a private practice and I've been doing counseling for 22 years. And this company kept marketing, publishing company was emailing me just these random emails about writing the Self-Love Workbook for Women and I decided, at first I kept deleting them thinking, why are they asking me? I must have a good Google page or something, I'm not sure. But I decided, the topic really resonated with me and I could definitely probably do something like this. And so I think it was two years ago. It was right at the start of the pandemic when I had a little bit of more time. And I was able to write the book.

Annmarie Kelly:
The pandemic, the fact that this was born at the beginning of these strange unfamiliar times where all of us were grasping for something that made sense, it really speaks to the fact that we felt like we didn't know ourselves anymore. We didn't know what we had come to realize was true about ourselves, about one another, about our world. It's been a real perspective shift for many people. Have you seen that in your practice where people are saying, "I used to be this and the pandemic changed all of that. And so now I'm thinking of about doing this other thing."

Megan Logan:
Yeah. I've definitely seen it's shift, a lot in people's lives in terms of evaluating kind of their values and maybe where they were putting their energy prior to the pandemic. And it just kind of, everything came to a halt and allowed for some introspection and reflection on what's important. And it works both ways. Some people said, "Why am I working and commuting and living this crazy life." And other people are thinking, I need connection, I need time with people. I'm going crazy being by myself in the house. And so I've just seen it manifest in so many different ways.

Annmarie Kelly:
Is self love an either or? Like, do I either love myself or not? Or do you think it's more situational? Like, I tend to love myself when I'm at the gym, but I don't love myself in the kitchen. Talk to me about it. Is this a binary, an either or, or a sometimes?

Megan Logan:
Yeah, I think it's definitely a sometimes and different situations, different relationships, different times of our lives. I can feel certainly confident and comfortable in some situations and other times really doubt myself. And so self-love is a journey, it's a process, it's an evolution and it's constantly changing as we grow. So it never stops. We're always having to work on our self-love. I don't think anybody has reached the epitome of loving themselves and then they're finished.

Annmarie Kelly:
Well, this is both good and bad to know because at every stage of my life, I'm almost like I have to reintroduce myself to me. You told a story in the book, this was early on. I think you said, "As a working mother, I vividly recall once breastfeeding my child while wearing a baby sling, stirring spaghetti sauce and being on a work conference call."

Megan Logan:
Yep. I remember trying not to get spaghetti sauce on the baby while I was pretending like I was paying attention. Now the pandemic, people have real experience with that, that's not too farfetched. But as a mom, I have teenagers now and I always say, being a mother is like having this giant magnifying glass on all my flaws, on all the things that I just screw up or fail to realize or miss. And that's a huge area for me to continue to keep growing and providing myself some compassion and some grace and just knowing that I don't have to have all the answers and wisdom of knowing how to parent teenagers.

Annmarie Kelly:
No, isn't that the truth. So your story about the spaghetti sauce and the baby, reminds me of the way that in the early days of having children, my thought was, it was just like you were being heaped with more and more... Like you just got the handle of the one child and then another one would come and just heaped more and more. And I remember it kind of, my second daughter was born with some feeding challenges and she could never nurse and so I had to pump if we were going to give her breast milk. And so I had this idea that I would buy, other people buy corsets to be sexy, I bought one so that I could pump in the car. So I would like-

Megan Logan:
They hook in.

Annmarie Kelly:
It's one of the... Looking back, so it was because you had like double of feeding time to nurse.

Megan Logan:
And then you could use your hands to do things.

Annmarie Kelly:
Right?

Megan Logan:
Yes.

Annmarie Kelly:
This was my solution was to save time in the carpool lane on my way to bring my other daughter to school. I could just, and I could pump, and then you'd have milk when you get home to feed the baby and then you would put her down again, and then you could pump again. The crazy things that I did, spinning wheels to try to do it all. That was for some reason, because prior to having children, I had just sort of handled my life. But then the kids come along and instead of asking for help and realizing that sometimes loving yourself is actually, I don't know, admitting defeat or admitting that what you have offered is going to have to be good enough. You can't necessarily feed all those mouths all the time, but they can't feed themselves. Becoming a parent really made me reevaluate what we value in women. Does that make sense?

Megan Logan:
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I know for me as a mom, having my children was the only thing that probably allowed me to set boundaries with my work. Otherwise, I'd be bending over backwards, seeing people all hours of the night and into the weekend. But because I had children, I couldn't, I had a reason. And how sad is that, that I have to have a legitimate reason to be able to set boundaries. Now I know that self-love comes from giving yourself permission to set boundaries when you need to, and you don't necessarily have to have an excuse or a justification or a rationalization to be able to do that. That that's part of just the inherent practice of self-love.

Annmarie Kelly:
Going back. Do you remember what it was that first drew you to think, I'm going to be a therapist? What, tell me about that.

Megan Logan:
So I actually had an eating disorder in high school. I had depression, pretty severe depression in high school and an eating disorder and I saw a therapist when I was about 15 years old. I got on medication at that time. And so I knew by the time I graduated high school, that I wanted to be a therapist. My therapist, her name was Indrani Mookerjee and I actually just reached out to her on Psychology Today because I'm working on another book and I was thinking about my therapy experiences and I was like, I wonder if she's still in practice. I don't think she remembered me, but she was very sweet. So she inspired me. I wanted to become a social worker because she was a social worker, I had never even heard of social work before. And went to college, got my undergraduate in social work, knew I wanted to do therapy and became, got my master's degree.

Megan Logan:
Originally I wanted to work with eating disorders, but my experiences kind of took me down a little bit, a different direction. I worked a lot with sexual assault survivors and trauma and children in foster care and eventually work for hospice for a little bit. And then in private practice, I do now work with eating disorders. So I think it's my own personal experiences and journey. And it is the perfect fit for me because I like intense, deep connections with small groups of people. I'm not an extrovert, I like one on one and I think that allows me the opportunity to listen and to connect. And I'm exhausted by the end of the day, I'm drained, exhausted and that's why the Self-Love Workbook speaks to me personally, because I've had to learn how to take care of myself and nurture myself.

Annmarie Kelly:
How do you take care of yourself? I'm thinking about what it feels like to unload at the end of a day, but you have had people unloading all day long onto you. And so how at the end of a day do you as a therapist take care of yourself?

Megan Logan:
So that's the hard one I've had to learn 22 years, probably why I'm divorced, possibly. I mean, really, truly looking on it. I don't have a lot to give at the end of the day, I'm like the giving tree, I'm a stump. And so I've had to learn to able to set some time for myself. I'm strategic in who I schedule and how I schedule people so that's just a little thing that I've learned as a therapist. I don't put three exhausting clients together. And then at the end of the day I have little rituals that I've created. I'll roll my windows down. I'll put music on, I'll imagine stuff flying out the window. I'll put people in bubbles in my mind and then I pop the bubble and then I get my next person and put them in a bubble.

Megan Logan:
So I've created some really interesting techniques, but then, taking time to be able to not over commit, I've stopped saying yes to things. I lead a very simple life, I don't do a whole lot. So I've just given myself permission to go for a walk or be quiet, not talk to people.

Annmarie Kelly:
That's so freeing. I think as I get older, giving myself permission is a skill that I've absolutely learned. And listening to you describe that it used to seem like you had to make chit chat with the person next to you, but you could also put on a podcast and walk around the field and watch your child and all of those things. When I was reading this book, I was thinking about these three things. I was thinking about self-love, self-care and selfishness. And I realized, I feel like self care is sort of bubble baths and candles, that could be self-love but I feel like self-love also has to do more with what's running through my head or the visualization or the meditation. But I'm not sure I know the difference between self-love and selfishness. How do I know when I'm being selfish and when I'm being self-loving?

Megan Logan:
It's interesting, a lot of people, a lot of women that I work with feel like they're being selfish by taking any time to consider themselves. And it's really important to reframe that or kind of challenge some of that perspective. Selfishness is when you're absorbed with yourself, when you think that you are the most important thing in the world. And I like to think of self-love as making myself the best version of myself so that I can give out to others in the world. It's using my gifts and my talents and my skills and knowing my worth and that involves setting boundaries and having healthy relationships and it may involve bubble baths and chocolate.

Megan Logan:
So self-care, I think is in the component of self-love, but it goes so much further beyond that in terms of really knowing your worth and knowing who you are and what is important to you and selfishness is, I don't have regard for other people, I'm only thinking about myself and how things are and what they are important to me. And so it's hard to describe exactly the differences there, but I think there probably are people that take self-love and turn it into selfishness and use it as kind of a disguise for I'm going to do what I want to do because it's what I want to do.

Megan Logan:
You hear that a lot with boundaries, right now that boundaries is a big buzzword about setting boundaries. And I always struggle with it because yes, setting boundaries is really important for taking care of yourself. It's very important in toxic, unhealthy relationships and dynamics. But we do have to consider other people's feelings and we do have to consider how other people might be feeling or how we impact another person. And so I think boundaries are not just this black and white thing, just like self-love is not this black and white thing. That's how I look at it.

Annmarie Kelly:
That makes sense. I think as a parent, I often, there'll be what I think I'm going to do in the evening, which is get back to grading some papers and then what my kids need me to do, which is, Hey mom, I need some snuggle time. Or, Hey, remember when we said we were going to do this thing, which I don't remember saying, but I believe them and so we do, and the kids' needs often come before my own. Which as a parent feels like that's how it's supposed to be. Every time they tell you that thing about the oxygen mask on the airplane. I know I would never be able to do it. God forbid I'm ever in that position, but I know that I would have to put their mask on before my own. That is just part of, it's just in me, right?

Annmarie Kelly:
But I also know that in order to be able to be there for my children, that I need to... For me it's, I've got to go to the gym. I've got to work off some of the stress of the day. I tend to do that in the morning, one, because I'm not too tired, but also I know that I feel like I can take time for me when it's not taking time away from them. So at five o'clock in the morning, they're all sleeping. So I can of my shoes and tiptoe out and I don't feel selfish because they don't need me right now. But I also know how important that is to care for me so that my body can be strong so that I can feel like, because again, as parents we've all done it when you're just depleted, especially working and raising children. And then when you get to the end of the day and you, like you said, you have nothing left. And I've made that mistake plenty of times. I mentioned bodies and can we just take a moment to talk about swimsuits?

Megan Logan:
What about them? I just went to a nude beach. I actually went to a nude beach, I was in San Diego and I went with my ex-husband, which is a little odd, but I figure he's the best person, 17 years, he's seen my body change dramatically from having kids and he's a safe person to go and he had gone before. So I didn't wear a bathing suit and it was amazing because there-

Annmarie Kelly:
Oh my gosh.

Megan Logan:
No gritty sand in my bathing suit, I didn't have to worry about my boob popping out when I was in the water, I just got to enjoy my body and the feeling of the sun and the water. And I walked up and down the beach naked. It was crazy. And I actually was feeling better naked at a nude beach than I do when I'm in my bathing suit at a fully clothed beach. Because I wasn't looking at anybody else because that's embarrassing. You can't stare at people. So I didn't even notice other people. And then I was like, nobody's looking at me, I can guarantee that. And so it was, I just got to experience the beach.

Annmarie Kelly:
Oh my gosh, so many feelings right now. First off, awesome. Good for you. Secondly, oh my gosh, I haven't thought of this in years. So I've only been skinny dipping a couple of times, the feeling of being in the water, like the feeling of being in a bathtub, but in this case you're in the water. I have always remembered that feeling as being sublime. Amazing. But also like verboten, like when are you ever going to get to do that in your sensible adult life? But so you've given me hope that's out there.

Megan Logan:
There's a nude beach here in Florida, about 45 minutes and you have to pay a membership to it and I'm seriously considering it because I have large breasts, they're like 38Es they're heavy. I want a breast reduction, but when you're in the water and you don't have a bathing suit to contain them, they just float. It just feels so freeing.

Annmarie Kelly:
Oh my gosh. I remember being, oh, this is like embarrassing story Sunday. So I remember being pregnant and when I was pregnant, my cousin gave me all her old maternity clothes. And I remember pulling out a bathing suit and just thinking to myself, never in a million years will I ever put this giant circus tent thing on. And then I remember being nine months pregnant in August and walking around in that bathing suit, getting in any water I possibly could because the feeling of being weightless, especially when you're uncomfortable in your body was just beautiful.

Annmarie Kelly:
Okay. So I had no idea about any of the nude beach stuff that was actually not my question, but this is excellent. So I used to feel very comfortable in a bathing suit, right? I had a red bikini, I was hot stuff. But three children later, I'm just gelatinous in places. It's just the reality of this, again, I've reframed it, this amazing strong body that gave birth to these children. But I still don't love going places where I have to wear a swimsuit. And you had some good techniques in here and I'm wondering if you would share strategies for women who have these marvelous bodies that have created these little humans. How can we feel comfortable poolside or at the beach in a swimsuit?

Megan Logan:
I think, it's kind of the same thing as a nude beach or like you described being in the water and just feeling completely floating and free, is to focus on your physical sensations. You use mindfulness to be able to completely become at one with the experience. So you're suspending any sort of self-doubt negative message in your head, oh my thighs are gross or, oh my God, my stretch marks. And instead, you're thinking, gosh the sun feels really warm on my face or this cool breeze or listen to the seagulls or these kids are yelling and screaming and I'm going to go boogie board or have fun with my kids playing, throwing the football. And you immerse yourself in the experience that you're having. Our bodies don't know the difference. Our bodies don't know whether they're fat or skinny or lumpy or bumpy. Our bodies are just our bodies and they want to have fun and experience all the sensations that we deserve to be able to experience.

Megan Logan:
I remember, so I have stretch marks from my kids on my belly and they look like claw marks and the kids would be like, what are those? And I was like, those are your claw marks where you tried to come out. But those claw marks are beautiful to me. That's where I birthed two babies, I had two babies that I carried around inside my belly. And they're just, I look at wrinkles, I look at claw marks, I look at those kinds of imperfections as a testimony to life, that life is being lived. And I find those things to be very attractive. So it's also switching the narrative and the meaning of what you're focusing on.

Annmarie Kelly:
I really appreciate that. And when you mentioned mindfulness, I feel like mindfulness is one of those words that everybody uses, but I'm not entirely sure I've ever thought about what it means. I mean, I understand being full of thought in mind, but when you described it just now and in your book, what I came to understand was really this sensory experience. I can never list them, but seeing, tasting, smelling, hearing, and whatever that other one is, feeling? Is that the one?

Megan Logan:
Touch.

Annmarie Kelly:
I can never remember all five senses. I can usually get three and a half or four of them. But is to be mindful to just be in the senses? Is that a fair definition?

Megan Logan:
To me that's the quickest, fastest way to practice mindfulness. So, true mindfulness is being at one with the moment that you're in and you suspend any sort of judgment. You're not evaluating things as good or bad, right or wrong, fair, unfair, fatter, thin. There's no meaning, it just is, it's just what is, and you're kind of radically accepting the moment as it exists without attaching any meaning to it. So I think the senses are the quickest, fastest way to get to that because you can observe and you can describe the sun on your face without meaning.

Megan Logan:
So for example, I could have the sun in my face and feel the warmth and think, oh, this sun feels really warm and lovely on my face. Or I could be like, well, did I put enough sunscreen on? I could be getting skin cancer, well, my sister had melanoma, maybe I shouldn't even be in the sun. Gosh. And then we've been hijacked by that moment in our minds taking us away, putting a bunch of meaning onto stuff. So sensory stuff, when you're eating something you can notice the texture or the flavor or the temperature. And then that's the practice of being able to suspend judgment. That's really the trick. So it's observing, it's describing, it's noticing things that's fully participating without judgment and multiple things that you're getting distracted on. So it's just doing one thing at a time.

Annmarie Kelly:
So the opposite of how I handle hosting pretty much any major holiday.

Megan Logan:
Or pretty much anything in my head is the opposite. Our world is not mindful. We're supposed to multitask. That was the whole stirring spaghetti while you're on the phone while you're nursing your child, it's almost impossible in our Western world to live with. We're not Tibetan monks.

Annmarie Kelly:
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Annmarie Kelly:
Hey, I want to circle back to something you mentioned and forgive me if I'm prying. You mentioned that you first found therapy because you yourself had struggled with an eating disorder as a teenager. And I'm wondering if you would tell us a little bit more about that experience. It's fine if you're like no, I really don't want to talk about that, but I know adult women for whom this is a lingering concern and it's not something that we talk about, you know what I mean? And again, you brought it up, I wouldn't have mentioned it if you hadn't, but would you tell me what that was like and specifically how therapy helped?

Megan Logan:
I think that for me, my eating disorder was such a secret. I was ashamed because I was restricting and you get a lot of praise when you're losing weight. People are like, "Wow, you look so great. You look so amazing." And I eventually started restricting so much that I then started binging and I think they play together a lot of times. And then I would throw up. And that was a very secretive, kind of I would say, a dark place in my life because I would sneak, my parents would buy food and I would eat a whole box of cereal and a gallon of milk and a loaf of bread making peanut butter jelly, and then I'd throw it up. And I did crazy things like dig holes in the backyard and throw up so that nobody would, because I was clogging toilets.

Megan Logan:
Just crazy stuff. And luckily my twin sister noticed something was up. She was like, "I'm worried about Megan." And I remember her going downstairs and I was so mad and her telling my parents and they luckily got me into therapy, which back then probably wasn't a huge thing because... And I think honestly, if it hadn't of been an eating disorder, maybe, because I did have depression and anxiety, I don't know that I would've gotten the help. I think because my behavior was so bizarre and it was so... Back then there was the Karen Carpenter maybe or people being interviewed on Oprah that there was some awareness to eating disorders. I remember reading a book that I had checked out at the library and it was a woman, I don't know her name, but she was at Harvard and she was a college student and she was struggling with Bulimia and she told about her story and being shocked that other people did this.

Megan Logan:
I had no idea. I thought I was some weird, crazy person for trying... And I thought I had figured out the perfect way to eat food and not get fat. But therapy, so therapy helped me break the silence and the secrecy, which I think is an important part of dealing with the shame that goes along. And in that stage of my therapy, I probably didn't get very deep into the deeper stuff with me, but I did learn to identify some negative thoughts or how to express my feelings and how to be able to control the behavior. So I've probably clocked 10 years of my life in therapy. I've done a lot of work on myself.

Annmarie Kelly:
I really appreciate you sharing that. One, because I know that feeling of what a relief it is to find out you're not alone in something, that other people have experienced it too, that you are part of a community, a larger community than yourself and that because other people are struggling that there's people to follow. To walk out of the darkness, into the light or to say, "Hey, this worked for me, maybe you can try it." That realizing you're not alone was probably such a relief.

Megan Logan:
Yeah. Especially as a teenager.

Annmarie Kelly:
Oh that's beautiful. And also that's really beautiful that your family... Because you're right, we are about the same age though again, you look way younger and I'm going to be okay with that today. But we didn't grow up in a time when parents were like, absolutely, let's just do some therapy, I welcome your big feelings. That's not the time that you and I grew up in. So hats off to both your sister and your family for realizing, Hey, let's see if Megan can go somewhere for support. And this is making me think about, how do you know when it's time to try therapy? We have listeners who've considered therapy, but for whatever reason have hesitated. Sometimes those reasons are insurance related and we could do a whole show on that, do not get me started. But I don't know, what would you say to someone who's been thinking about making that phone call and is just not sure, how do I know when it's time to see a therapist?

Megan Logan:
I think when there's growing discontent, when there's a feeling that something's off. Sometimes you don't even know what it is. You may not be able to pick up the phone and say, "Hey, I have an anxiety disorder and I find myself having panic attacks." It may not be that clear that there's a mental health diagnosis going on. But other times you may be unhappy or unsatisfied or unfulfilled and you just feel like something's off in your life. Therapy can be really helpful in exploring that. So if you're using the medical model of therapy and you're having to go through insurance, you're going to have a diagnosis. That's one of the things that you have to have to be able to see a therapist and get that reimbursed.

Megan Logan:
But there's definitely a need for therapy outside for people that are dealing with just life, coping with the quarantining and pandemics and just grief and loss. That's another thing. Grief is not pathological, it's not a diagnosis, but it's something we all go through. And sometimes, especially during the holidays, that can be something that comes up and it can be really helpful just to have somebody to talk to that's a neutral objective and can be there.

Megan Logan:
The way that I think with therapy for people that haven't done it before, and this is my philosophy and my background and my training, is that we're not there to give people advice. We're not there to solve their problems. We're not the experts that have all the answers. Although we may have learned techniques and things that can be helpful, but we're there to hold space and allow somebody to come up with their own answers by asking them questions or by getting them to think about things they haven't thought about before so that they can do the work themselves.

Megan Logan:
We're just the guide there to help facilitate that, is how I really look at therapy. Some people need more direction and they want answers on what they're supposed to do and how they're supposed to do something. And other people need just support and they just need somebody who can validate and hold that space while they work through things.

Annmarie Kelly:
I love that phrase to hold space. We had Lori Gottlieb, the author of Maybe You Should Talk To Someone, on a little bit ago and this idea of holding space so that someone can do the work. We're so quick sometimes to offer. I mean, as friends, oh, you should try this, or we want to get our two bits in, our wisdom, but that's often not what folks need. And I've really been thinking about the ways you can show up for and with someone that just involve being there and not filling the room with words, as some of us are prone to do. But holding space for them to unburden and to work out for themselves what is needed.

Annmarie Kelly:
And I felt like with your book again and again, as I turned the pages, I was doing some of that. I know this is not the same as therapy, I know that there are different degrees, but working through just how I talk to myself and realizing that I talk to my friends pretty well. I'm pretty loving and nurturing and forgiving and giving them as many chances as they need. And I try to be like that with my children. But then when it comes to me, the way that I sometimes talk to myself inside, when I disappoint myself and to be as forgiving with me as I am with other people. To be as loving and seeking out the best in me as I am with other people and making that kind of space, that was a really beautiful outcome of working through these pages.

Megan Logan:
I think that that self compassion allows us to continue on and to not give up and to keep working towards our goals. Otherwise, we get so down on ourselves, we become paralyzed with just not taking action or we become so stuck that we don't know what else to do and we just beat ourselves up and having that self compassion so important. And sometimes that's a big part of what I do as a therapist, is provide that validation and support for somebody to be that person for them. Because if somebody can be, I mean, you can be vulnerable with yourself and we don't always share some of our really deep pain or shame or things that we're really struggling with, but to be able to witness or to be able to share that and have someone else witness that and be able to support and validate that, that in and of itself, by itself can be transformative without necessarily having to do anything else with it.

Annmarie Kelly:
Oh, well, I could fan girl all day, but they don't let me do it. So I have to do some closing. We always end with like camp counselor icebreakers. So let's see what we have here. This is mostly just multiple choice, there's no scoring system.

Megan Logan:
Oh fun.

Annmarie Kelly:
So you'll be fine. So let's see, just pick one, dogs or cats?

Megan Logan:
Dogs.

Annmarie Kelly:
Coffee or tea?

Megan Logan:
Ooh, neither. Coffee. Coffee if I have to.

Annmarie Kelly:
What do you like to drink instead?

Megan Logan:
Diet Coke.

Annmarie Kelly:
Mountains or beach?

Megan Logan:
Mountains.

Annmarie Kelly:
You live at the beach. You live-

Megan Logan:
I'm moving once my kids graduate. I'm zoom straight, fast to the mountains.

Annmarie Kelly:
Oh my gosh. St. Augustine? Are you still in St. Augustine?

Megan Logan:
Yep. I'm in St. Augustine, beach.

Annmarie Kelly:
Okay. Cake or pie?

Megan Logan:
Cake.

Annmarie Kelly:
Early bird or night owl?

Megan Logan:
Night owl.

Annmarie Kelly:
Ah. Are you a risk taker or the person who always knows where the Band-Aids are?

Megan Logan:
Oh, risk taker.

Annmarie Kelly:
All right, now a few short answers. What's something quirky that folks don't usually know about you? Likes, loves, pet peeves.

Megan Logan:
Oh, you stumped me. I don't know, I think I'm an open book and everybody knows, oh, here's a really kind of creepy weird one. I have a beard. I have polycystic ovaries and [crosstalk 00:38:29] syndrome and so I can grow a goat tee. I have to shave twice a day but now I've learned to just embrace it. It is what it is and I can't help it and so that's kind of a weird one. Most people probably don't give that answer.

Annmarie Kelly:
Nice. What is one of your go-to songs?

Megan Logan:
Oh. Ooh, that's too hard. I have too many. Right now I like, I just saw Brett Young in concert and whatever his song is about. In case you didn't know, I don't know what the name of it is, but that's my current.

Annmarie Kelly:
I can never think of song titles when I need them so it's all good.

Megan Logan:
And Brandi Carlile's, my all time favorite probably.

Annmarie Kelly:
Oh, I won't tell, she's been touring, well, she just did a thing in New York, which I did not have tickets to or know about until after. But I've never seen her and have heard her talk and just thought, oh, she would be someone you just would love to hear-

Megan Logan:
You should listen to The Mother, that's a song that she wrote that you would like.

Annmarie Kelly:
All right. I totally will. We'll link to that on the show page. That's great. What's your favorite book or movie?

Megan Logan:
I will have to say, movie is probably Schindler's List, I don't know why. Both of my favorites right now are... And The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison, that's my favorite book.

Annmarie Kelly:
Oh yeah.

Megan Logan:
I read that in high school and that always impacted me.

Annmarie Kelly:
Talk about a book that reaches, especially teenage girls though I've had teenage boys respond to it, that reaches out and tells you, you are not alone, and whatever shame you feel is not your burden to carry, whatever hardship you have been through is not your fault talk about a book that does. And I mean this is not a new book, Toni Morrison, that she wrote this book as a gift to women, black women and truthfully, I've seen all young women respond to this book to just be told that man, stuff's going to go down and things are going to happen and it's what you do in response to those things.

Megan Logan:
Yeah. That was the first book that made me understand being white in our world and what that means and what it, just really having a... Just because it was so emotionally powerful. It just really made me look at things differently.

Annmarie Kelly:
Yeah, no, that's a gorgeous book and a difficult book. Okay, lastly, last two. Favorite ice cream?

Megan Logan:
Chocolate cherry chunk.

Annmarie Kelly:
Chocolate, cherry?

Megan Logan:
I don't know if that's an ice cream, but if there is, that's my favorite.

Annmarie Kelly:
I wasn't sure if there were comas, it was like chocolate ice cream, cherry ice cream. Then you got to chunk and I'm like, wait a minute.

Megan Logan:
Well, I like chocolate and cherry and I think there's something called chocolate cherry chunk somewhere.

Annmarie Kelly:
Well, if there's not, there ought to be and we'll get someone right on that. All right, and then last one, if we were to take a picture of you really happy and doing something you love, what would we see you doing?

Megan Logan:
Being at a nude beach. Actually, I went skydiving and I have a picture of me skydiving and that's probably the closest to pure bliss that I've ever experienced, the free fall part of it was. I had this huge smile on my face. But right before I got suffocated by my boobs when the parachute went, and then I was like, everything just kind of lifted. But that free fall was awesome.

Annmarie Kelly:
Oh my gosh. So I'm remembering now when we lived in Jacksonville. Oh my gosh. And my husband-

Megan Logan:
You lived in Jacksonville Florida?

Annmarie Kelly:
Yeah, my husband was serviced and right after we got married, we lived in Jacksonville. And for one weekend he surprised me with a skydiving trip. He didn't tell me we were going, he just said to put on these warm clothes and go. And we drove to the place and I freaked out because they had a sewing machine in the... And no one would tell me what they sewed. All I want to know is, do you sew the parachute or do you sew the outfits?

Annmarie Kelly:
And he's like, you're making people uncomfortable, stop asking that question. I'm like, these people are making me uncomfortable that they won't answer this question. And I went through the training and I listened to the story and they sent one plane up in front of ours and then it got too cloudy, the weather came in and we had to stop. And I knew it was a sign from God and we were all going to be safe. And here's the thing, we never went back. And to this day, the man holds over me the sewing machine story about, I probably should like, now that we're three children in, it's just back then, like what? It was just us, you know?

Megan Logan:
I did it with my kids. I brought my kids to watch me. I mean, looking back on that, I was like, "Oh, that probably wasn't too good of an idea." They were little, they had little signs, go mom.

Annmarie Kelly:
Oh my gosh.

Megan Logan:
So you should, you can do it.

Annmarie Kelly:
All right. Well when we picture you happy and doing something you love, it will either be on a nude beach, or it will be-

Megan Logan:
Maybe I'll combine them. I'll sky dive nude. That doesn't seem safe. There's some shaping issues that we're not going to get into, this is a family show.

Annmarie Kelly:
I actually don't think it's a family show. Oh my goodness. Thank you Megan Logan for coming on this show today and for writing a book that has been and surely will continue to be a welcomed companion to folks in these strange times. It's a book that taught me to love and value my body beyond the superficial images that I see around me. A book that reminds me to be a friend to others, but also to be a friend to myself. I'm really grateful for the work you've done here. Guys, the book is called the Self-Love Workbook for Women. Though, I got to be honest, I think this would work for anybody, you can cross out the women and just like Self-Love Workbook for people.

Megan Logan:
For humans, I agree.

Annmarie Kelly:
Yeah, absolutely. You guys, my guest today has been the fascinating Megan Logan, I encourage you guys to pick up this title. We will put links to it in the show notes. And guys, as they say in the biz, just do the work, okay, do the work. It's not even really work. I think we should call it something else. Do the stuff, do the thing, do the self talk because it's such a gift. I'm really grateful for your book Megan and your time.

Megan Logan:
Thank you.

Annmarie Kelly:
And to everybody listening, we know that you have a choice of over 2 million podcasts. The very idea that anyone is out here and has found us in the giant slush pile fills in my heart with joy. And we're wishing you love and light wherever the state takes you. Be good to yourselves and be good to one another. And we'll see you again soon on this wild and precious journey.

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