Get Out of Your Own Way with Sara Read

Annmarie Kelly:

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[Music Playing]

I am of a certain age. Like many women my age, I've been raising babies for a while. As regular listeners know, my oldest will head to college this fall. While I've been fortunate to work and hold down jobs at the same time I've been a mom, I've also, turned just a little bit away from some of my own passions to tend to loving my family.

I am grateful for my kiddos and my partner, but sometimes this has meant saying yes to their needs and no to some of mine. Or if not, no exactly, more like, not now. As I think about where the heck that last two decades of my life went, I think it's only natural to wonder about the roads not taken. The twists and turns when we could have gone left and instead went right.

There's something about middle age that has us contemplating, “What if I'd taken that job, instead of this one? Married or not married that person, instead of this one? Moved across the country or the world.”

For me, the pandemic highlighted some of this. We stopped and took stock of who and what we cared about. But now, I also feel a kind of urgency. We lost people and we lost years. Now, feels like the time to act. Fly to Barcelona, write that novel, chase that longing. The time for waiting has passed.

I mention all of this because the debut book by today's guest, echoes some of these aching themes. In it, we meet Johanna Porter, who used to be a painter, a lover, and an up and coming artist. Now, two decades later, she finds herself wondering what she still might be able to dream now, that she's all grown up.

So, let me tell you about our guest. Before she started writing fiction, Sara Read earned a degree in women's studies from UC, Santa Cruz. Some years, and two babies later, she returned to school for a master's in nursing.

A survivor herself, she now has the distinct privilege of caring for cancer patients. Sara's short stories have been featured in The Missouri Review, Beloit Fiction Journal and Zone 3 Press, and she's been nominated for a Pushcart Prize.

Johanna Porter Is Not Sorry, is her debut novel. Sara lives in Charlottesville, Virginia with her husband, two teens, a terrier, and three snarky cats.

Sara Read, welcome to Wild Precious Life.

Sara Read:

Thank you so much. I'm so delighted to be here.

Annmarie Kelly:

Well, so, you and I have actually never met in real life.

Sara Read:

Oh, yes.

Annmarie Kelly:

You’re basically a stranger I met on the interwebs, but I feel like I know you because, well, you've interviewed me on your super fun YouTube show, MomsWritersClub, and I've followed your online progress with this book, I think probably since its inception, maybe.

Sara Read:

Probably.

Annmarie Kelly:

And I love this book, which means by the transitive property of literature, I basically love you. So, I feel like I've decided starting now, we're going to be friends.

Sara Read:

Lovely.

Annmarie Kelly:

I hope that works for you.

Sara Read:

I was going to email you. I was telling Jess Payne, who I do the YouTube show with, I was like, “I really like Annmarie. Do you think I could just email her and say like, ‘Hey, can we be friends? I want to be your friend.’ She’s so cool.”

Annmarie Kelly:

100%. I'm all for that.

Sara Read:

Right back at you.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. When I was like younger, I could like troll for friends and I had time. I don't have time now. I just have to like cut to it. I want to be your friend. So, since we're going to be friends, I feel like I should learn some things about you.

Sara Read:

Right.

Annmarie Kelly:

So, would you mind introducing yourself to me, friend? What's your story, Sara Read?

Sara Read:

Oh my gosh. My story is long and twisty. So, I was born and raised in Washington DC, like in the city, in the ‘80s, which was like crazy, sketchy time in that city.

And I went to UC, Santa Cruz, got a degree in women's studies, came back to Washington, spent about a nanosecond in the office life with like work clothes and people in suits. And I was like, “No, not for me.”

So, I got the opportunity to come down to Nelson County, Virginia, which is like so rural, it didn't even have a stoplight in the entire county when I moved there. And worked for an Irish wooden flute maker. So, I was a flute maker's apprentice. I learned to use a wood lathe. I played Irish fiddle music professionally for many years. But that was about three years of my life.

And I met my husband, who's also a musician, and we got married and we had a couple kids. And I was like, “Oh my god, pregnancy and childbirth is the most amazing, fascinating thing I have ever seen in my entire life.”

And so, I went to nursing school thinking I wanted to be a nurse midwife, and I got through my OB rotation and I was like, “Oh my God, that's so intense. Let me just be a nurse for a few years and see how this goes.” And I am still a nurse. And I was a labor and delivery nurse for eight years, which was amazing. I mean, miracle of life every single freaking day you go to work.

And that career sort of is cross-fading with my writing career. So, I'm working a little less as a nurse and a little more as a writer. And I'm hoping that they will finally cross-fade and I will retire from nursing.

And I live in Charlottesville with my husband and my two teenagers who just started driving, like they both got their driver's licenses within like a month of each other. And it's like really awesome, but also, kind of fucking scary.

Annmarie Kelly:

Totally.

Sara Read:

And yeah, that's kind of my life story. I have more pets than I want and …

Annmarie Kelly:

So, I want to rewind to the flute-making part. So, I applied for jobs at a college and I was like, “Do I want to be a waitress? Do I want to sell jeans at the Gap?” I don't remember seeing the application for flute maker's apprentice. If I had, I’d probably would've gone for it. Like what about your gender studies background made you think, “I shall make flutes?”

Sara Read:

Nothing. Although people would ask me like, “What are you going to do with that major?” And I was like, “I'm going to live, motherfuckers.” Like I'm going to …” They're like, “What career field is that going to take you in?” I'm like, “That's going to take me into my life.”

So, I started playing Irish fiddle shortly after I got back to DC from college. And there was a great Irish scene there. Irish music is played in sessions, so it's very informal. Everybody's sitting around a table that's covered in like pint glasses and fiddle bows and stuff like that. There's no amplification. It's not a performance. It's very, very social.

So, I got to know a lot of people and I got to know this gentleman, Patrick Olwell, who is the flute maker. He would come up to DC for various things and come to this session.

And so, I met him and I sort of became part of this community and he actually hired someone else before me. He hired this German guy, and at the last minute, the German guy for some reason couldn't do it or chose to do something else.

And I had been like, “Oh, I wish that had been me. Like I would love to do that.” And then the German guy fell through and I was like, “Pick me, pick me.”

He is one of the most interesting people I know. Like we would sit in the flute shop all day turning and filing, and sanding, and measuring, and doing all this stuff, and talking about everything. So, it was a really intellectually stimulating work environment.

And I think all these things, I mean, I've had a lot of life experiences and all of them have kind of — they all feed you as a writer.

Annmarie Kelly:

I believe that. I'm thinking about this book is not about … so, your debut novel, I should say to folks, is called Johanna Porter Is Not Sorry. And Johanna Porter Is Not Sorry, is not about making flutes, but it is about the creative life and what it takes to pursue the creative life. What you give up, what you sacrifice, what you gain. So, I do see that in here.

And when I first opened this debut novel and I read the first few paragraphs, I always take notes either in the margins or on a notepad. And the first word I wrote down was snarky. But I meant it in the nicest way.

Sara Read:

I love that word. That's one of my favorite words.

Annmarie Kelly:

Well, it's the first word they came to me. Because the opening pages are a delight. Johanna's invited to this party and she is swearing and she's full of attitude and she is not going to go, except she goes.

And I wrote down like that this book grabbed me by the collar and then it crossed out collar and I wrote boob. I'm like, “This book just like grabbed me by the boob and invites me in, with its like take no crap narrator.”

It reminded me of like the first few minutes of the film that I love Four Weddings and a Funeral is all swearing. And it's just like you're just all aboard. You know what this is. And Johanna is like that girlfriend you get together with, you're going to pour a drink and you're just going to dish.

Sara Read:

I love that. Yes, totally.

Annmarie Kelly:

She’s delightful. And I want to be her friend too. And since she's fiction and you're real, that means again, we're going to be friends. How did this character come to you?

Sara Read:

Oh my gosh, this character came to me like birthed out of the head of Zeus or whatever that … is that, am I getting the right god? I don't know.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah.

Sara Read:

She almost came to me sort of fully formed, not in her story, but just in herself. So, I was working night shift on labor and delivery, and I was just starting to write seriously again. I had written a bunch in college, and then I had done music for a long time. And then I was just coming back to it and I was starting to feel like I have stories to tell.

And this character came to me, this character who is like a total train wreck. Like she is the car like in the ditch with its front axle all bound up in vines and like its taillights flashing. And that's kind of how she came to me, this like total hot mess of a character.

But a character with a lot of momentum in a certain direction. Like a character that is so … like she's got so much impetus to reclaim this part of her life that she's lost. She has so much drive, but she has like no steering. And that's kind of how she came to me. The drinking, the swearing, the Chesapeake Bay.

So, she really lived in me all this time and I wrote the entire book and I queried it. This was in like, let's see, pre-pandemic 2016, 17, 2018-ish. I queried it. It was a totally different story. Different characters, same story world, same main characters, but different bee stories and stuff like that. And it didn't go anywhere.

I shelved it, I wrote another book, queried that, that didn't go anywhere. And then I kept being pulled back to this story. I was like, “I am not done with her yet.” Like I have not done her justice yet. Like I have to come back to this book and I have to rewrite this book.”

And I took out major threads. The painting wasn't even in the first book. She didn't steal the painting.

Annmarie Kelly:

For those who are listening, the whole book is about the painting. So, that's hilarious to me, it wasn't in there. That's great.

Sara Read:

Right, it wasn't. She lived with me for a long time. She came pretty fully formed and was like, “You need to tell my story.”

Annmarie Kelly:

I love that word that she used, the word reclamation. I felt really such a kinship with Johanna. I mean, in many ways, it's a story about gender roles.

For folks who haven't read it, Johanna was a painter. She's a 20-something-year-old, up-and-coming painter, has an affair with a man, and then ends up living a very conventional life in other ways. She has a baby with somebody else. She becomes a mom. And the art just sort of stops being part of her life. And when you read the book, you'll understand why.

But the reclamation, the being decades into your adult life. My oldest daughter has just turned 18.

Sara Read:

Mine too.

Annmarie Kelly:

I'm on this threshold of where Johanna is. And I do often feel like a disaster, because I remember being the kind of person who said, “I'm always going to work. I'm never going to be a stay-at-home mom.”

And then my second kiddo was born with some health needs and I needed to step away from my career and until recently, didn't go back. And I just remember and really inhabit this feeling like of, “Am I any good anymore? Am I ever going to grow up and be the thing that I thought I was going to be? Will people see me? Do I see me?”

And she is such a knowable and recognizable character. I'm just in love with this woman because I feel very seen by her.

Sara Read:

Yeah. I think that's what I hear from a lot of people. And I think that's going to be true for a lot of women in their 40s and 50s. I think when you're young, when you're like in your early 20s, sometimes you don't know what the fuck you want to do, but a lot of times you're like, “Oh, I'm going to do this and this is who I am.”

And over a couple of decades, your identity can wind up all over the place. You've got pieces of your identity in all kinds of different places, and that's just kind of life. Life is complex in that way.

But I think a lot of people feel a sense of loss. Like there was something back there that they meant to do and they never did it. And this is kind of a story about a person who takes a lot of risks and is like, “Fuck it, I'm going to do that thing.”

And so, in a way, like I live vicariously through her. I certainly did, when I was working night shift on labor and delivery and writing when it was slow, like I was living vicariously through this character.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah, she's a good time. And there's a funny like highbrow-lowbrow combo in here, right?

Sara Read:

I'm so glad you said that.

Annmarie Kelly:

So, yeah, this book features, at the same time, like super fancy coffee and also Johanna trying to like brood dusty remnants of deeply expired coffee grounds that she then drops on the floor, never having any coffee creamer.

Like she wears this gorgeous vintage Oscar de la Renta dress, but she has no shoes to go with it. So, one time she borrows shoes and they're too small. Another time she wears like combat boots. I mean, we get proper paintings and proper art galleries and cheap wine. We get spray painted on sailboat sales, and then we get great wine.

Like I love this. These are just delightful surprises around every corner. And they do echo I think what you're saying about like you've lived a lot of lives, you've had a lot of experiences and it sounds like some highbrows, some lowbrow, and they both fold into this book.

And again, that juxtaposition is really just impeccable and it was great fun.

Sara Read:

Thank you.

Annmarie Kelly:

Tell us a little bit of that early plot. Like where do we meet Johanna and who's Nestor and just like the painting.

Sara Read:

I'm not giving anything away. This all happens in the first two paragraphs. I think it's even on the copy, on the back of the book. So, Johanna is this 40-something soccer mom who was once a kind of a rising star in the art world in her early 20s. She was really good. She was getting successful.

And she got involved with this Picasso figure, this older man. And of course, it ended badly and he sabotaged her career.

And then, excuse me, like 20 years later, and at the beginning of the book, she gets an invitation to this private party for the opening of like this big retrospective of his work. This fancy private party. And she's like, “Ah, I fucking hate those people, but I have to go. Like I can't not go. Like that was my life. That was when I was on fire.”

So, she gets the dress, her daughter dresses her up, she goes. And she's like looking at all his paintings and Nestor Pinedo, who is the older man she was involved with, takes her to the back to show her this painting. The frame was cracked, so they haven't hung it yet.

And it's a portrait of her when she was in her 20s, when she was like in her power as an artist. And she is like struck dumb. She's like, “Oh my God, there I am.” She creates this like instant relationship with the woman in the painting.

And over the course of the party and several glasses of champagne, she makes a very interesting and maybe bad decision. Which is, she goes back to see the painting and she's like, “That belongs to me. That does not belong to him. He stole it from me, that belongs to me.”

So, she cuts it out of its frame, rolls it up, sticks it in her big black Parker, and she walks out and she's like, “Ah, I got to go, bye. This was a great party. Bye.”

Annmarie Kelly:

Yes.

Sara Read:

Yeah. And then she's of course, she's like, “Oh my God, what have I done?”

Annmarie Kelly:

It's an excellent inciting incident for those of you who are writing a book and are told, “What's the inciting incident?” In this case, Johanna steals the painting of herself. And that becomes both a literal plot point. “I have stolen art, what do I do from here?”

So, it's a literal plot point, but it is also metaphorical. How do you reclaim yourself? How do you get back? Is it possible to get back the person you once were? What of ourselves can we find again? And what of ourselves is never something we can get back.

And I love the way that this literal plot and this more metaphorical plot hand in hand kind of marches along through the book. And I think that's what makes it so dreamy.

Sara Read:

Yeah, thank you.

Annmarie Kelly:

I'm also, thinking about a larger question your book asks about like, who does art belong to, not just this one that she feels stolen picture. But I also, felt that there was real tension in this book between whether art is made for everyone.

Is it for all of us or is it really just the property in this case, of the wealthy folks who can afford it? There was that just a beautiful tension kind of running through the book of like, who does art belong to it? And it made me wonder, like art out in the public world, like what art do you just love?

Sara Read:

I love going to art galleries. I really love modern nonrepresentational art. Sometimes it doesn't work, but when it does, it is so moving. It's just incredible.

I went to a Rothko exhibition. Rothko, was the one who painted those color fields. There'd be like two kind of squares of color and these very rich, dense colors, you'd recognize them immediately.

And like looking at it on a poster or in a book does not do a justice. You get in front of those paintings and you are like, “Oh my God.” Like I get chills even thinking about it. They just really move me.

Annmarie Kelly:

I'm glad that you said Rothko. So, I had to look up nonrepresentational. It was in your book. I'm like, “What's nonrepresentational art?” It sounds like it doesn't have a form. Like I'm drawing a picture of a person, but you're not going to see a person. That was what I thought, but I had to look it up.

And I'm glad that you mentioned Mark Rothko because my very first experience with his painting was, I guess the word is ekphrastic. In college, my choir sang a piece called Rothko Chapel, and I kid you not, the whole thing was like … like we had to sing the art and I had never seen the art before. So, this-

Sara Read:

Was it those three black and gray paintings.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yes.

Sara Read:

Oh, yeah.

Annmarie Kelly:

So, it was this crazy piece that I remember in college just hating it because it was like … and we were singing the paintings.

And then I went, I want to say it was the Corcoran, but maybe it was the National Gallery. I don't remember. But there was a room where you walk in and you're surrounded by these giant canvases. 18 by 24, they're enormous canvases. And you're basically, standing in the middle of the painting. And I kid you not, I heard that music standing in that place.

Sara Read:

Oh, that’s so cool.

Annmarie Kelly:

It was one of the most eerie and beautiful experiences of my life where I thought I had been singing art I'd never seen. What does it mean to sing art to begin with? And how do you evoke a mood, or a feeling, or a disappearing into a more … I mean, it was incredible.

Sara Read:

I was at an art gallery in Helsinki, Finland with my sister. And my sister was telling me this thing that an artist friend of hers had said. And if you're listening to this and that's you, please get in touch with me, because it was the coolest thing I ever heard.

She was like, her friend said, “Making art is like you have this feeling and you put it into a piece of art, and then the art goes out into the world and somebody else sees it and maybe has that feeling.” That was just amazing to me. That it's not just an object, it's a feeling.

Annmarie Kelly:

The idea that I could draw my feeling into this apple and hang it on the wall, and years, decades later, you could come by and see that apple and feel the feeling that I embodied it with. That's gorgeous.

[Music Playing]

I guess we should say, there's not just one setting. So, part of this book does take place in the DC art world, kind of the city I guess. And then part of the book takes place on the Chesapeake Bay, away from the city, and right on the water.

And yes, one man who's part of the setting is the artist, the picassoesque Nestor figure. But there is another guy, there's a couple guys, but the one we're talking about is Mitchell, who she meets all but on a sailboat. She meets on the Chesapeake Bay at a particular time in her life and a particular time in his.

And there's such interesting parallels in this book. So, Johanna is someone who has taken time away. She talks about motherhood. What does she say? She says about motherhood like, “I resent it. Hate me for that if you want to. It's the truth.”

“For 20 years, for whatever lame reason or no reason at all, because it wasn't available to me as a woman in midlife or as a mom, or because Nestor Pinedo stole it from me, I have not had the strength to reclaim my calling. I have not believed in myself.”

“I've done nice little pieces for school fundraisers. I've done a reasonably good job teaching the masses and mentoring the few students who seem to care. But I have done nothing, nothing anywhere near what I'm capable of.”

So, that's her story. That's Johanna. She's been away and all at the same time, then she meets Mitchell. Mitchell who talks about kind of like the opposite of that. Like he has spent that same amount of time growing his craft, growing his surgical practice.

And his complaint to her is like, “I can't give up all that I've worked for. I've spent decades to become chief of surgery.” It's such an interesting like lament that they both have. Like her complaining of all that she's denied and him complaining about like all that he's worked for. I love the way they mash up against each other like that.

Sara Read:

Oh, that's so interesting. I never thought about it that way. That's the interesting thing about like putting a book out into the world is then other people read it and then …

And it's the same thing with a work of art. Like you don't necessarily get exactly the feeling maybe that the artist put into it. You get that, but it's filtered through yourself.

And so, putting a book out into the world to readers like you, is so interesting because you see things in it that I'm like, “Oh yeah, that's cool. I didn't know I did that.”

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah. Because I mean, we are attracted to people who believe in us, but we're also attracted to people who help us reclaim a part of us that we didn't remember we had.

And there are some deliciously steamy parts of the book, which I will just tell people, pour a drink and cuddle up because, ugh, this is going to be such fun. I can picture book clubs reading this, like women getting together and dog ear a couple of pages.

Sara Read:

One of the most fun things I got to do with this was write the like discussion questions at the end. My editor was just like, “Can you like write about 10 questions that people might want to talk about in book clubs.” And I was like, “Oh my God, this is so fun.”

Annmarie Kelly:

Flip through the discussion questions and let's do one. Let's see what the author wanted us to talk about.

Sara Read:

Yeah, I have one. Okay, this is number two. And this is something we haven't quite touched on yet in this little conversation.

What did you think about Johanna (quote) leaving her daughter to go to the house on the bay? Do you see it as neglect, selfishness, not a big deal, and encouragement of Mel's independence (Mel is the daughter)? Especially as children approach adulthood, what is a mother's duty to them versus to herself?

Annmarie Kelly:

Such a good question. Whoever wrote that question is very smart.

Sara Read:

Right, I know.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah. So, your child never stops being your child. And for those of us who are like grown ass women who still have someone in our life who's a parent, we know that they might make us feel like a child. But at what point … is Mel 20 in this book. I'm trying to think if she’s-

Sara Read:

No, Mel is 17. So, this takes place around January. So, it's like her last half of her last year of high school.

Annmarie Kelly:

That's right. We get the description, said she's 17 years old, 9’ tall and built like the goddess of the hunt with a face to match. I love that opening description of Mel, because exactly like these daughters of ours are such glamazons. They’re just the goddess is on the hunt.

Sara Read:

Yeah, they’re marvels.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yes. So, 17-year-old Mel, yeah.

Sara Read:

So, she's still living with her parents and there's a custody arrangement. She lives with Johanna on the weekends and she lives with her dad during the week. And when I was writing this, I was kind of like, “Well, this isn't such a big deal. She's independent, she's 17, and she's got her dad to support her up there. Like who the fuck cares?”

But like I got, not exactly pushback, but I definitely have gotten comments about this. About like, “Should she really do that? Like isn't that a little bit of a transgression of motherhood that she would leave like that and all for her own thing that she wants to do? Shouldn't she just wait another six months when Mel graduates and just do it then?” But Johanna is like, “I have to do it now.”

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah. I think as a creative person, I'm going to side with the muse on this one and say that when you've got the muse, when you've got the fire to create, when that wind is blowing in your direction, you have to, because you're not always on fire with a desire to create, or the vision.

And my recollection of the arrangement in Johanna's life is that her ex-husband, Ben, has Mel during the week when Mel goes to school. And so, we are just talking about the weekends when Johanna is available to her daughter and incredibly communicative with her daughter. Like really in touch with her kid.

I thought disclosing more about her life than I probably would've felt comfortable with. And she does go back, goes back to watch some soccer games. But I also, felt like our job as mothers is not to bury our light under a bushel.

I got two daughters and a son. If all I model for them is what it means to be a woman, is to never do what you want. What it means to be a woman is to give up everything and never be happy. Like if that's all I model with them, that's what they're growing up to become. I don't want them to be like that.

And Mel, as a 17-year-old who's already into college, who I think you want to see a mom who pursues her passion, even if it means you're going to mess it up sometimes. Johanna messes it up sometimes. But no, I was fully on the side of go to the Chesapeake Bay and take a lover.

Sara Read:

Yeah, right.

Annmarie Kelly:

But mom guilt is real. Mom guilt is real. And I mean, why did Johanna take 17 years away? Like why did she take all that time away? Some of it was the mom guilt. Some of it is her belief that she was taken from herself. She was split in two that this painting stole her.

Some of it was, you find out later in the book that Nestor and his daughter, Pilar, poisoned her reputation in the art world.

Sara Read:

Right. And she was just so beat down. It was very, very hard to get back especially with her own particular history and everything.

Yeah. So, when you hit that point where you're, like you called it the muse, where you have that tailwind pushing you, like you have to do the work. But sometimes you get a nice push and yeah, you got to use it and sometimes you got to sacrifice other things.

Annmarie Kelly:

If you're doing right by your kids of all ages, if you're setting up those open lines of communication, that I think that you'll be okay if you … I mean, in Johanna's case, she tells her daughter she's sorry when she is. I know that the title of the book is that she's not sorry, but that's for I think a larger … but like she's open with her daughter.

Sara Read:

Sometimes she's sorry.

Annmarie Kelly:

She messes up, she owns it. And if she tells her daughter, “I just need you to trust me on this,” her daughter trusts her because that's the kind of relationship they've cultivated. So, I'm okay with it, but I can see that there will be some readers who won't be. And that'll make for great discussion at the book clubs.

Sara Read:

I know. I love the idea of book clubs. I'm like, “Oh my gosh, that's so …”

Annmarie Kelly:

I'm going to recommend it to mine. Absolutely.

Sara Read:

Ah, so cool.

Annmarie Kelly:

So, what's next? I mean, you've got this book and I know that you're going to be hitting the pavement and you're going to be signing books and going to debuts and things like that. But I mean, as any creative person knows that once the book's out there, there's probably another book following in its wake. So, what are you going to try to do next?

Sara Read:

Well, there's a couple books following in its wake. My editor already has my next book after this because the arc of publishing is very, very long.

Annmarie Kelly:

But it bends toward justice. Yeah, I'm sorry, I got my quote confused. Yes.

Sara Read:

Yeah.

Annmarie Kelly:

Maybe both. Or injustice, I don't know.

Sara Read:

So, book two. So, I'm always very interested in what women do, like the work that they do and the things that they're interested in or great at. So, that book two is about a very, very high-level mathematician. And that was super interesting to research.

So, that is with my editor. And I am working on the next book after that. This one is about a high-level finance executive who witnesses an interesting thing and then has this knowledge, has this very sort of explosive knowledge and she needs to decide what she's going to do with it.

Annmarie Kelly:

I will be on the lookout for both of those things. Here at the show, we always like to close, as you know, with a couple of ice breakers. It's the camp counselor within me and-

Sara Read:

Alright. Awesome. I loved camp.

Annmarie Kelly:

So, great. These are just multiple choices, just pick them. Coffee or tea?

Sara Read:

Coffee.

Annmarie Kelly:

Mountains or beach?

Sara Read:

Mountains.

Annmarie Kelly:

Dogs or cats?

Sara Read:

Neither.

Annmarie Kelly:

Would you rather have a jar of paint or a jar of pickles?

Sara Read:

Pickles.

Annmarie Kelly:

Follow up question, sweet or sour? Like are you like a … because I know in the south sometimes it's like the sweet pickles, but I mean, they're also, dill pickles. What pickle? At one point for folks who were listening, Johanna like hurls a jar of pickles and I wondered what kind.

Sara Read:

That’s so sweet. They were like the sour dill pickles.

Annmarie Kelly:

Gotcha. Red wine or bourbon?

Sara Read:

Bourbon.

Annmarie Kelly:

I thought maybe. Cake or pie?

Sara Read:

Pie. But that's a close one.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah. Are you an early bird or a night owl?

Sara Read:

Oh my god, I'm such a night owl.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah. You got to befriend the way you work. This is a fill in the blank now. If I wasn't working as a nurse slash writer, I would be a …

Sara Read:

Sculptor.

Annmarie Kelly:

Nice. At one point, Johanna is definitely like kicking the shit out of some clay and I wondered if you had … what's that called, wedging the clay?

Sara Read:

Yes. I have wedged clay. Actually, a very old version of this book, she was a sculptor, and I went and took a sculptor class at my little local place. And it was super fun. Yeah.

Annmarie Kelly:

Nice. Well, maybe in a future book we'll see a sculptor, a reappeal. Are you a risk taker or the person who always knows where the bandaids are?

Sara Read:

Ooh, both. I'm a nurse, I always know where the bandaids are.

Annmarie Kelly:

Nice. That's true. It's probably on every floor, in every pocket. What's something quirky that folks don't know about you? A like, something you love, something you hate, a pet peeve.

Sara Read:

Oh, I was a like really great ultimate Frisbee player.

Annmarie Kelly:

Huh?

Sara Read:

In my 20s.

Annmarie Kelly:

In California?

Sara Read:

In DC. I was on club teams in DC. It was so fun. I played ultimate like five days a week. It was this big around.

Annmarie Kelly:

How do you throw the Frisbee so it doesn't do that annoying thing where it goes in its side and rolls into someone else's yard? How do you throw it flat?

Sara Read:

Practice.

Annmarie Kelly:

Ah, that's the thing I never … so, I'm going to write that down. Practice.

Sara Read:

It's like the arm and the wrist. And you got to be aware of the angle that you're releasing it at, like that. How fast you're throwing it, how far it needs to go. Sometimes you want it to curve, you can throw it so it does this like big beautiful curve.

Annmarie Kelly:

What do you love about where you live?

Sara Read:

Oh, I love Charlottesville. I love the seasons. If I had all the money in the world and could be anywhere I would be here in the spring. It is just glorious.

Annmarie Kelly:

Oh. Now, that we're friends, I feel like that was an invitation. So, spring's coming up-

Sara Read:

Yes ma'am.

Annmarie Kelly:

… I will look at my calendar.

Sara Read:

Come visit. Please do.

Annmarie Kelly:

What's one of your go-to songs? A song that pumps you up or a song that you just love?

Sara Read:

Oh, I put together playlists for books as I'm working on them. And I'm really into Eva Cassidy right now. She was a singer. She died fairly young, unfortunately. But she did some amazing covers and she did a cover of Cyndi Lauper's Time After Time, that I just love. Yeah. And I love the original too. I'm like grooving on that song.

Annmarie Kelly:

“Sometimes you picture me, I'm walking too far ahead. You're calling to me, I can't hear what you said.” Useless information in my head. But I'm going to look up that. I love that song.

Sara Read:

“If you're lost, you can look and you will find me time after time.” Yeah.

Annmarie Kelly:

Yeah. We are of an age. I had that album.

Sara Read:

That's crazy, the cover’s so good. Yep.

Annmarie Kelly:

What's a TV show or a movie that you love?

Sara Read:

Barely watch TV. I don't consume much like video entertainment, but my go-to is the Keira Knightley Pride & Prejudice. That's the movie I curl up with some popcorn and it's like my comfort food if I'm like sad and just want an escape. Love it.

Annmarie Kelly:

Sometimes I will just pull up the scene where Elizabeth runs from the church and Darcy follows her and it's storming.

Sara Read:

Yes, I know.

Annmarie Kelly:

And he says, “I love her.”

Sara Read:

Right. And he's like, “Thank you for making your feeling so clear.”

Annmarie Kelly:

“I'm sorry to have wasted so much of your time.” And I just will watch that.

Sara Read:

And they're like this is. Oh, it's such a good scene.

Annmarie Kelly:

So good.

Sara Read:

So much tension.

Annmarie Kelly:

I mean, I just watched that the other day with my daughter. My daughter is named Elizabeth, and so, that's one of her … she's a Lizzy, so we love it.

Sara Read:

And I was determined to hate that movie.

Annmarie Kelly:

As was I, because we had the other ones. We had the BBC, and we had the A&E with Colin Firth as Mr. Darcy. We didn't need another one. Oh, that movie is a delight. Yeah.

I've got two left. What's your favorite ice cream or dessert?

Sara Read:

Either really good apple pie or tiramisu.

Annmarie Kelly:

Nice. Those are very different. I wouldn't have them both together, but yes-

Sara Read:

No, that's why I was having a hard time choosing, so I gave you both.

Annmarie Kelly:

That might be a choice next time for you. Apple pie or tiramisu. I feel like there are parts of your book that are very apple pie and I feel like there are parts of your book are very tiramisu, so it makes some sense that you had answered that way.

Alright, last one. If we were to take a picture of you really happy and doing something you love, what would we see you doing?

Sara Read:

Oh, you would see me wrapped in a towel on my dock at my house in Finland, having just taken a dip in the cold Baltic Sea after a hot woodfired sauna.

Annmarie Kelly:

Ooh, that also, sounds like an invitation. Now, I'm getting my calendar out twice.

Sara Read:

It is.

Annmarie Kelly:

Finland, like the country of Finland?

Sara Read:

The country of Finland. If you go anywhere near Finland, let me know.

Annmarie Kelly:

I will. That's fantastic.

Sara Read:

It's the best. Like you just will never feel better in the world than at that moment.

Annmarie Kelly:

Well, Sara Read, thank you so much for joining us here today.

Sara Read:

Well, thank you for having me. It's such a pleasure and an honor to be on your show.

Annmarie Kelly:

Well, I'm just glad that we were able to meet again. I mean, in this book, your debut novel, Johanna Porter Is Not Sorry, you wrote that sometimes a person has to get out of their own way and reach and reach for that bigger life. So, I've been thinking about that.

To everyone who's listening, get out of your own way and reach for that bigger life. And don't think that the dreams are too much for you. That's what dreams are for.

Folks, the debut novel, Johanna Porter Is Not Sorry, will be available at indie stores or wherever books are sold. Please, please order it, pre-order it, find it out there in the world. You will not be sorry. It is a delight. It is a snarky, sweary, just delight. You'll be glad that you did.

And to everyone listening, we are wishing you love and light wherever this journey takes you, be good to yourself and be good to one another. And we will see you again soon.

Wild Precious Life is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. Special thanks to executive producers Gerardo Orlando and Michael DeAloia; producer, Sarah Willgrube; and audio engineer, Ian Douglas.

Be sure to subscribe and follow us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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