Hosted by top 5 banking and fintech influencer, Jim Marous, Banking Transformed highlights the challenges facing the banking industry. Featuring some of the top minds in business, this podcast explores how financial institutions can prepare for the future of banking.
In this episode, the Banking Transformed podcast is at Sibos 2023 in Toronto, Ontario where we are joined by Judith Pinto and Prakash Pattni from IBM who are at the forefront of revolutionizing banking through hybrid cloud solutions.
We explore how hybrid cloud can support complex banking workloads, foster innovation, and drive advanced technology strategies. We'll also delve into the crucial aspect of managing risk in hybrid cloud implementations within the banking sector.
Whether you're a banking professional, a technology enthusiast, or simply curious about the future of finance, this conversation is a must-listen.
This episode of Banking Transformed Solutions is sponsored by IBM
IBM is a leading provider of enterprise AI, hybrid cloud architecture, security and ESG insights to the global financial services sector. Our deep industry expertise, extensive portfolio of services and solutions, and robust ecosystem of fintech partners, empower collaboration, innovation, and creation. As a trusted partner to banks, insurers, the capital markets and payments providers, we guide financial institutions in all stages of their digital transformation journeys through IBM Consulting and deliver the proven infrastructure, software and services they need through IBM Technology. To learn more about IBM's insights and solutions for the financial services industry, please visit www.ibm.com/industries/financial-services.
In this episode, we're at Sibos 2023 in Toronto, Ontario, where we are joined by Judith Pinto and Prakash Pattni from IBM, who are at the forefront of revolutionizing banking through hybrid cloud solutions.
We're going to explore how hybrid cloud can support complex banking workloads, foster innovation, and drive advanced technology strategies. We're also going to delve into the critical aspects of managing risk in the hybrid cloud implementations within the banking sector.
Hybrid cloud unlocks powerful new capabilities for banking, while also requiring careful planning and execution. For many organizations, we're at the beginning of this exciting journey that opens the door to exciting opportunities. That said, there's still much to uncover as we execute hybrid cloud solutions.
So, before we begin, can you both introduce yourselves and discuss a little bit about where you think the evolution of the hybrid cloud solution is within IBM and beyond IBM within the banking community? So, Judith, why don't we start with you?
Sure. Judith Pinto and I am with Promontory Financial Group, we are an IBM company. We sit within an IBM consulting, and we focus largely on financial services assisting banks with regulatory issues. I had our technology information risk management practice, so we deal with banks as they look to move to hybrid cloud situations.
And I think what we're seeing is some concerns from the regulators around the complexity of the technology environments as banks look to move to a hybrid cloud situation. However, they also recognize the benefits of moving. So, it's important for banks to be able to manage the risk as they make those transitions.
Great to be here, Jim. So, I look after our ... So part of the digital transformation IBM Cloud Financial Services. So, I work with our financial services clients to help them adopt cloud and new technologies. So, just to answer your question in terms of where hybrid cloud is and where I think we are, it has moved a lot over the last few years.
So, I think if you asked a bank 4, 5, 6 years ago, many of them were still talking about being cloud first or cloud only, that has very much changed. We've done some recent surveys with CC executives and most of them now say they have a hybrid cloud strategy.
So, I think it has really matured in terms of how people think about it and the adoption and the technology itself in terms of how do I operate, how do I work in a hybrid cloud environment has also changed. So, I think this is where most people are today, and I think this is where I think the future's going to be.
So, where do you see the role of hybrid cloud right now? Again, I think there's going to be an expansion as there's more comfort level with hybrid cloud, but what do you see as the roles that most financial institutions are using hybrid cloud for right now?
So, as they started moving ... Just maybe to walk you through the journey, when they started their transformation journeys and the move to cloud, they initially started with some of the simpler, less sensitive workloads as you would expect. The cloud was new, they didn't want to make any mistakes.
But as they've become better, their people have become more familiar with cloud, they've started to look at some of the more back office, middle office workloads, and these are more sensitive, the requirements for compliance, security, become higher.
So, the reason we're seeing, I think, this hybrid cloud move is they're starting to understand that certain workloads almost make sense to keep on premises because of their security needs, because of performance, latency. They've also started to look at industry cloud. So, IBM came out with the launch of IBM Cloud for financial services a few years back.
And this was aimed squarely addressing these middle and back office workloads because of the higher levels of security, high levels of compliance that we've built in. And we also heard this from the industry. So, we set up a cloud council, has over 140 members, includes not just banks and financial institutions, but also regulators and standards bodies.
And together we co-created what is it that the industry really wanted? And many of the banks were going through the same pain points as it were around when you use a general purpose cloud in a regulated industry, you can't use it out of the box.
You have to harden it, you have to make sure the security controls are built in. And all the banks were doing this themselves. Maybe there was some slight difference, 10, 20%, but on the whole, 90% of it was the same.
So, they're asking, why are we all doing this? And so, IBM said look, "We will do this for you." So, we've embedded all of these controls into our cloud so that clients can use it out of the box knowing it's got the best in class security, the best in class control standards, et cetera. So, I think that's the second piece.
And thenthe third piece has really been around regulations and regulators. So, they've been asking many more questions around concentration risk, around exit strategies, and that's driven people to much more of a multi-cloud world.
Because of all of these themes, we're in a place where it is very much about hybrid cloud, because you can now place your work where it makes the most sense, there isn't like one right answer. There's many answers depending on what you're trying to do.
It's interesting, when we had our prep call, we talked about the fact that, I mean, it was like an aha moment for me when you came out with the partnership with Bank of America and built a platform that any institution can take from that point. And as you mentioned, only have to deal with the 10 to 20% that's very unique to their organization, or they view it in a different way than your in the box solution.
But on the other hand, when you're looking for speed and scalability, when you're looking to not have to do everything yourself, or to hire a whole team to evaluate every little part of the process, it's good to have a partner that allows you to take it more than halfway down the field and get it in the red zone in a football analogy.
So, Judith, it's interesting, we talked about this also that in the beginning, most institutions were very hesitant about the cloud because of their concerns about risk and security. How does a hybrid cloud compare to a traditional back office system with regard to the risk and security issues, data issues, all the things that were at the forefront, but now almost has flipped?
When banks began to move to the cloud, the first area was concern is not having transparency into how a lot of the controls worked, and so that drove their hesitancy in moving critical workloads. And as Prakash said, they started to move less sensitive workloads because it was less risky.
But as people have become more familiar with the cloud environment, as Prakash had said, they're establishing those controls. But now, they need to be conscious of how they're operating in that cloud environment versus how they're operating on prim. Is it the same? Is it different?
And so, we're seeing regulators really kind of look at any differences because they want to see the consistency that you're managing this across whatever platform it's running on. And so, we're seeing, as Prakash had said with IBM Cloud for Financial Services, a lot of those things are embedded. So, it operates very similar to how these banks are operating their current environments today.
It's interesting, we could probably make this a topic for almost every podcast I do right now, is that in many cases, technology and where we are today is moving faster than most banks can keep up with, but certainly faster than the regulators are.
We talked about this, should financial institutions use compliance and the regulators as an excuse not to move forward or to move forward slowly? Or do they have to move forward with the knowledge of what the regulators are trying to achieve and deal with those issues as they're implementing?
It's a great question, Jim. The regulators have been pretty clear about the principles around risk management, and banks should never use the regulators as an excuse not to move forward. However, they need to do so with those risk principles in mind.
One of my colleagues who's a former regulator said, "Never wait for the regulators to tell you how to do it or what to do. You know the principles, do so with safety and soundness in mind." And so, we're seeing organizations starting to tiptoe into AI and generative AI, but with those risk principles in mind.
And so, they still proceed cautiously, but they're still proceeding forward because they don't want to be left behind because you have these FinTechs that are out there that are less regulated, that are moving much more quickly.
It's interesting because I think almost all bankers (most of them, not the more progressive ones) really hold onto the old principles, hold onto what's worked. And it's really hard to make change. It's for all of us and it's for every institution, and it's hard for the regulators to keep tabs on everything that's going on.
And I wouldn't necessarily say beg for forgiveness rather than asking for permission, but asking for permission among organizations, governmental units that really are learning on the go also, you almost have to help educate the regulators as to what is possible.
I look back in the old days where I said, "We thought Cindra cards were necessary until we realize what the real concept was, to know your customer, which could be done digitally." And it was the aha moment again, where everybody said, "Oh geez, we never thought of it that way until we did."
And it's an interesting scenario, because at the same time that hybrid cloud's coming into focus and being used more, we also have new technology. We have generated AI, we have innovation models. Prakash, how does the hybrid cloud help enable what can be done in the generative AI space with regard to data and AI and within the whole concept of innovation and banking?
So, if you take the broader point about innovation and just picking up on your earlier thread about the ecosystem and partners and FinTechs, we are seeing banks use a broader set of digital suppliers. Now, that's having a couple of implications.
One is if you start to use these third and fourth parties, you've got to make sure that they're secure. So, again, going back to the regulatory point around FinTechs being possibly less regulated than banks are, so what you've got to do is secure that digital supply chain. So, that's one of the challenges that you have.
We've also seen bad actors increasingly target these startups, FinTechs, because they see it as an easier way to gain access to banking systems. So, there was a report I was looking at, and I think 10 years ago, there are about two breaches a year being reported. Now, there's something like 10 third party every single month, these are the ones that are recorded.
So, we know this is a real problem. And I think it was back in February, Janet Yellen of the treasury, made a statement, something along the lines of, "Even though FinTechs have brought innovation to the financial services market, they've also increased risk." So, on the one hand, that's what you have.
And then on the other hand, you have banks who really do want to use these providers, these FinTechs and innovation that's available through them, but they get often overwhelmed because they have so many of these and they have to make sure they're secure. So, their third party oversight teams obviously have to go through a lot of due diligence and that can slow the whole process down.
Some of the FinTechs site, work quite closely with a number of FinTechs and they were saying they've stopped targeting tier one banks because it was too painful to onboard. And that's not what tier one banks want. And I'm working with the neobanks because it's simpler to get through their onboarding process.
So, you have this on the FinTech side, you have an organization that doesn't necessarily have the skills that you need to be able to get through the onboarding process. On the banking side, you have all of this demand, and so it slows it down and it can take 18, 24 months to onboard.
So, as a bank, you can't wait 18, 24 months to take advantage of innovation. So, some of the things we've been doing - again, our clients came to us and said, "Can you help us with this problem?" Because there's no industry standard for this. And the part of the IBM Cloud Financial Services framework helps to do that. It creates this standard.
And what we've been doing with clients has been saying, "If you want to take advantage of these innovative third parties, we will deploy on our cloud. We'll deploy in hardened architectures. But more importantly, we will test you against the control framework, which is comprehensive, and it's over 500 control requirements. And if you pass that, then you can get onboarded much more quickly."
And a number of the banks have seen so much value from this, they've said all of their third parties, the only way they'll get consumed is if they go through this process that we put together. So, all of that's helping. I think there's a lot of friction points in the process. But by working and addressing these challenges, like the way that we've done in partner with our clients, you can actually overcome them, take advantage of this innovation.
You know what, one thing that's interesting too, and something that I've become much more familiar with that I've worked with IBM at multiple events is that IBM no longer is taking over a complete process. So, in other words, if you partner with IBM, it's not like it's a package take it or leave it.
You are working with a number of partners within and outside of the financial institutions as they work with multiple partners to implement solutions. How do you integrate that within a hybrid cloud solution matrix where you ... You almost touched upon it with regard to not only security, but with regard just to putting the pieces together as you may.
So, some of what you get from hybrid cloud is that flexibility. So, some of the solutions that we've been working with clients on, things that you could do on premises yourself, but maybe took a long time or was slower - so give you an example.
High performance compute when a number of their banks are doing their risk calculations, they could buy all of this hardware in themselves, deploy it but that can take months. But if you integrate it with the cloud, you're able to then burst out and use it as in when you need it.
So, that's given them that extra capability and flexibility so they can meet their risk calculations or whatever it might be. It's the same with fraud detection, for example. So, bringing AI into that, again, you need high levels of compute power.
Banks were doing sampling of frauds. So, a number of people have said sometimes I got alerts or people questioning me when I was abroad, but other times I wouldn't. And that's because of that sampling nature. Banks didn't have the capacity to do all of them, check every single transaction.
But now that we've got into the realms of AI and you are able to use the cloud, you start bringing these things togetherand very much in the hybrid cloud world. The capability of both allows you to get much higher levels of checking of transactions if you are doing fraud detection, for example.
So, these are a couple of examples where hybrid cloud is making things possible that perhaps in the past, you could have done on-prem, but it would've been highly costly and prohibitive in terms of timing as well.
Well, the data element alone, the massive amount of data that a cloud solution can give you versus a traditional solution and in a regulated okay scenario. So, you talked a little bit about the security and the risk issues, and IBM works with clients to make their hybrid cloud solutions secure and under regulation.
So, what does IBM actually do towards that? I understand that that's the focus and that's the focus of everything we're doing with the cloud or anything we're touching right now. How does IBM help improve the knowledge base of the organization as to how they have to address these challenges?
Alright, well, I think the first thing IBM does is to educate themselves on the regulations themselves. So, we Promontory work very closely with the cloud team in monitoring regulatory change across a number of jurisdictions. But also because a number of my colleagues or former regulators, we kind of can see where the regulations are starting to head as well.
The one thing I wanted to add to what Prakash was saying is we're also saying regulators starting to use cloud more often for the very reasons he was just saying, and you were mentioning is the large data sets. They are taking advantage of this as well, so they're innovating at the same time-
Exactly. But IBM, it's important I think for our clients as we come to them to help them solve the problems that we do understand the regulatory environment, we understand what pressures they're under, and that puts us in a better position to help them solve their problems.
And like I said, we work closely with the cloud team in monitoring regulations, monitoring change, not just for cloud, but also have expanded that to AI as well, where we're seeing jurisdictions such as Europe, Brazil, come out with AI regulations.
You mentioned Brazil, you mentioned other countries. And I think one of the challenges that North America has as well as the UK is we were building on a traditional banking system, while there's now a whole economies, whole continents that really were built on a cloud and a digital technology basis.
Where in the world do you see hybrid cloud and even some of this innovation on technology being more advanced? And what can other countries learn from those? Because IBM is obviously an international company that allows you the ability to touch into different marketplace, but what have you seen elsewhere?
I think we're seeing a lot of innovation in Europe Latin America, South Americawhere everything has gone more digital. They're trying to reach a broader customer base and the easiest way to do that is to go digital.
And to your point, the U.S. And continental Europe had invested in this banking structure for a long time, and so they've been less quick to move to a digital platform. Prakash, I don't know, would you agree, disagree with those comments?
No, I totally agree with them. I think just to give you a couple of examples, we've seen especially in the banking world where you would have the typical way to enter a market would've been to create a branch network and then go from there. And if you're in a country like Africa or some areas in the Middle East, that's hard to do. It's very costly to do.
So, we've seen this move straight to things like the mobile banking and payment, so you can, on your app, pay other people and use all sorts of financial services. And we've seen financial inclusion drive up rapidly in those organizations. So, you've seen places like Africa, I think some of the statistics, it went from 20% inclusion up to 80 within a few years. I think India managed to hit their target-
Six years and they had a 45-year target. So, you can see how much change you can bring in. I think those are the countries that we're seeing real innovation in terms of adopting these new technologies, be they cloud or other things, and M-Pesa, Paytm in India. Those are the types of card solution providers that have really demonstrated how this is possible.
It's interesting when you think about M-Pesa and you think it's a cloud platform now. And we always looked at M-Pesa as the most basic of basic digital engagements. Well, now is it's really where everybody's trying to go, which is, let's make this simple as simple as possible. Let's make it lowest level of effort needed to deploy.
When you're talking about this, I went to China back right before COVID and realized that the cloud provided capabilities for testing. It provided capabilities to serve lower income and lower economic levels of consumers because you could run all kinds of new models around risk and reward and realize I don't need to make this much, but if I make it on the masses, I'm in better shape there.
How do you see the hybrid cloud really enabling innovation, back office simplification and automation? Because these all really work together. One part's enabling others and things of that nature. How do you see that being done? And do you have any examples?
So, hybrid cloud has really helped accelerate the innovation in a lot of these areas, especially, I think it's not just been about hybrid cloud. I think it's that intersection now with gen AI as well, which is really helping move that forward. I'll give you a couple of examples and I'll bring it together.
Soone of our banking clients that we were talking to recently wanted to take advantage of generative AI, but some of the data that they had, they were really uncomfortable about putting it on the cloud. And so, they go, "Can you bring the capability, gen AI capability to my on-premises?" So, I keep my data secure, but I still get the benefit of generative AI. And so, solutions like Watsonx allow us to do that.
Another client was then looking at solutions around, they wanted to move to a platform model. So, they were moving away from maybe just selling products in general. And they wanted to think about, "How do I bring all of this data across my ecosystem together so I can predict when the customer needs something."
So, instead of them going, "Oh, I'm going to sell them a mortgage product," they're like, "That's not really what they're trying to do. They want to buy a house. If I want to buy a house, I need savings. I need a good credit score. At some point, I need a mortgage product."
So, how do I understand where their client is and then offer them the right thing at the right point? So, all of that only becomes possible when you have generative AI type solutions, which can analyze all of this data. But then you've got all of this data on-prem, on the cloud, and multi-cloud. How do you bring all that together?
So, to your point, hybrid cloud isn't about - in the past, a few 10 years, 15 years ago, people were like, "Let's centralize all of my data stores and then analyze it." Now, you can just go, it doesn't matter. Leave the data where it is. I'm going to be able to analyze it wherever it isacross this hybrid environment, bring it all together, and now I can really serve the customer in a much better way, whether it's semantic banking or contextual banking, whatever phrase you want to use.
But it's being able to meet that greater customer expectation. And I think that's what really hybrid and AI and cloud and all of these technologies are finally enabling, I think that's what we're starting to see.
You know, that's the key thing. Because we were talking with a client here recently who was looking to be able to turn a decision around, for example, for a loan process within minutes rather than days. And so, I think customer expectations are driving a lot of that.
So, talking about customer expectations and client expectations as in financial institutions, risk is still just so paramount and the fear of what hybrid cloud or a cloud solution may be. When you're sitting down with a financial institution, number one, what's the biggest challenge that they see with regards to risk and security? And how do you help them feel more comfortable about the solution that's out there today compared to what they've seen?
Because again, we're not talking about the forerunners, we're talking about the people that are in the mass. The mass people that are just starting to dip their toes in the cloud market, talking about it, knowing what has to be done, but still being fearful. How do you alleviate that fear and what's the biggest challenge that the financial institutions have in that whole space?
I think one of the biggest challenges that the institutions faces around third party risk, and it's not just that institution's immediate use of cloud, but understanding the ecosystem's use of cloud, and Prakash touched on this a little bit.
If you look at your critical service providers, how many of them are using cloud? Are they using the same cloud provider and looking at that concentration risk, and then what's the impact if one of those. Service providers have a resiliency issue. So, how does that impact the resiliency of the financial institution?
So, I think that's where a lot of organizations struggle is understanding that larger picture, because regulators are very quick to point to recent cloud failures that had minimal impact, but still impact. And so the-
Exactly. And then take that and you think about the worst case scenario. And so, I think that's where they really struggle. And so, we work with clients in establishing robust third-party risk management programs, to help them build sort of that inventory and understand where are the risky third parties, where do they really need to be focusing? Because you can't boil the ocean. You really need to be able to prioritize and then be able - but that's where we're seeing a lot of focus is in that third party risk area.
So, sticking with you for a second, what advice do you give financial institutions that are starting to really say, "I'm going to move from the analysis to the actually doing it," the how part. What do you suggest from a security and risk standpoint, what they need to do to be ready to implement it?
And it's looking at solutions like FS Cloud for example, where you've got third parties who are already onboarded there, because that can help and minimize the impact to your team as you do these assessments, but also minimize the risk that you're taking on and really sort of prioritizing looking for robust solutions that exist to help solve that problem.
I'd ask them to think about what activities are going to add the most value. So, often we would see banks spend a lot of time building controls and often, it can take 18 months, a year, two years before they're at a point where they can start taking advantage of the cloud.
So, I think it's important to know and all of that time you are not innovating, you're not delivering to the client. So, why go through that? And then you have to maintain all of that environment and keep it up to date as regulations change. So, that's not really where the value side of things are.
So, I would say think about what is it that's going to drive the value? And if it is adopting solution to be there, things like the IBM cloud financial services or SaaS solutions, things that are not commodity, but are becoming much more commoditized. So, don't spend your time there, spend it on the innovative side, but also think about where you're going to be in the future.
Sojust to give you an example. As we saw clients move to the cloud, we often saw them pick one cloud provider, harden it, deploy it, integrate their tool chains, drive efficiency. And then some of the things we spoke about with the regulator coming in and going, "Ah, concentration, risk, resiliency." Then they did that all over again with another cloud provider and then often did it again with another cloud provider.
And they've ended up in this position where they've got all of these siloed environments where they've got different control postures across each, lack of visibility across each and teams that only know how to operate within that particular silo. And this real example of some of the banks we worked with said, "Yeah, we didn't think about it, where we were going." And they've ended up in a hybrid world but without the ability to manage a hybrid world.
So, I think it's really important to think about where you are going to end up and then build for that from the start. Because we have always viewed the world ending up as hybrid. We've built solutions, our purchase of Red Hatis a key foundation of our cloud. So, it makes it much easier to move things around different environments.
We've also got solutions like security and compliance center, which monitors your control posture and can make sure across a hybrid world, be it on premise, be it across multiple clouds that you're able to see and proactively and reactively control your posture as it were across all of these environments. So, these types of solutions make easier.
So, the answer would be really think about why you're doing it and where the value is, but secondly, where you're going to end up and where the world is going and architect for that from the start, because it's very hard to retrofit after the event.
Well, it's interesting too because you end up in a situation that you've alluded, you both alluded to the fact that you can have a composable smaller cloud solution for a specific use case, which isn't a bad way to dip your toe in the water.
But as you referenced in that, and you've referenced also, you got to understand a lot about what's coming down the road. If you're not flexible, if you don't build in that flexibility, that nimbleness, you're going to get stuck either shutting it all down, starting over, or if you're lucky, you've built it with the knowledge of what's going to come up and you pivot, which is a whole different concept.
So, in that whole concept of the future, where do you see hybrid cloud being and being used three years from now? I used to say five years from now, but that's it. I can't think five years ahead for anything. So, where would you see it in the future?
I think it's becoming accepted now. Whereas before it was a thing, it was ... I'm going to the cloud and then now I'm going to be operating in the hybrid cloud world. I think it's become accepted that this is the norm. So, we are now seeing the focus very much on how do you make operation in a hybrid cloud environment, simplest, all of these things that I spoke about, how do I get one pane of glass across, logging and monitoring across all of my environments? How do I build once, deploy anywhere? So, I'm not having all of these siloed environments.
I think we're seeing much more development in that layer which interconnects all of this together. Similarly in the AI space that gen AI space, the data, fabric space, or I think what we're seeing is this will almost become ... Standard people won't think about it.
So, in three to five years time, I think it'll just become normal and it won't even be a thing. In terms of I've got to build something special, all the tools, all the capability will be there and it'll just be the default. So, that's how I see it playing out anyway.
That's a very good point. When you talk about what's got to be in the back of your mind, that's got to be in the back of your mind, that how do I make it simpler, easier, more seamless as the integration?
No, no, no, that's okay. And I think we're going to see that focus on simplification of tools or a common set of tools that go through all of those environments. And I agree with something Prakash said at the beginning, is there was a push, I think for some institutions all in on cloud at the beginning, and now they realize there are workloads that just really should remain on-prem. And so, I think the focus now is on sort of simplifying the management of that environment.
Where do you see the regulatory environment being three years from now? Well, they have caught up and I don't mean that derogatorily, it's just a reality of the situation. We're trying to catch banks up but it is amazing how much the consumer is driving everything that's going on right now.
Because in order to satisfy their needs, the small business needs, what's going on in the marketplace and all the new technologies, we're all catching up, but where do you see the regulatory environment being three years from now?
Yeah, no, I think, there will be additional focus on some of these newer technologies like AI and generative AI while the principles exist and current regulation and guidance, I think banks want more direction in that space. And to your point, consumers are driving this. Banks wouldn't be doing sort of this AI, generative AI if there wasn't this demand from the consumers on more personalization and speed.
No, and that very much so. The whole thing, it's being driven by customer and consumer experience, to your point, they want everything in real time. But that does have challenges. We're a payment conference here, so real-time payments, for example.
A few years ago, most of the governments now have pushed for real-time payments to become a thing. And in Europe, they're pushing for cross-border payments in real time to be available as well. And going back to the point we made earlier, all of that is great for the consumer, but it's become harder for the banks to stop fraud because now you have milliseconds to detect it. Whereas when you had hours or days-
Security experience. And it's interesting because the hybrid cloud helps that because it can speed up the processes. And it's just interesting as we're at this Sibos conference and really more than just payments, it's the future of value transfer. Because we think about money, we think about credit, everything else that is bigger than that.
And at the end of the day, how do we set the stage for the future in a world where we still have the legacy thoughts of how does it drive revenue? How do we eliminate costs and all this, when really, if you do the other things right, it kind of takes care of itself, doesn't it? I mean, it's interesting, but it's a long haul.
And I think you both reference the fact that using partners in this whole implementation process is so important. Be it IBM, be it anyone, be it multiple firms, which we all, I think feel strongly about that, it's a good way to go.
But we're only going to make this transformation if we don't look internally only and bring in the partners that are really the specialist. That's why IBM and you have become partners is that you brought a solution that they knew was needed internally.
And that's embedding, I think, risk and compliance in addition to security in all of these processes. Historically, it's always been embed security, don't hold it on later. I think there is a recognition you have-
Yeah, well, unfortunately that's the way it was. But you have to do the same thing with risk and compliance, it has to be built into the solution. I think FS Cloud is a good example of that, building it into the solution instead of bolting it on later.
Thank you so much for being on the show. It's interesting because we haven't touched on the hybrid cloud or cloud in general very much on the show. But it's so much the foundation upon which so many other things are built.
And it's something that's got to be in the mindset of every institution, no matter what size you are. Because it's not about mass, it's about efficiency, it's about security, all these other elements. Judith and Prakash, thank you so much for being on the show today. I really appreciate it.
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