The ultimate podcast for documentary lovers.

Behind the Doc takes you on a behind the scenes look at some of the most authentic, illuminating, and exciting documentaries chosen from the Gravitas Ventures collection.

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*Bonus* Behind the Scenes of Behind the Doc

It's episode 16 of Behind the Doc and in this super special bonus episode Heather and B.C. talk with producer Sarah Willgrube all about the films and interviews of season 1!

Sarah Willgrube:
It's the season finale of Behind The Doc, and in this very special episode, I sit down with Heather and B.C., as we give you our season overview. Here are the stories that didn't make it into the episodes, which films were our favorite and how Behind The Doc came to be.

Heather Grayson:
Hi, I'm Heather Grayson. Writer, producer, and director, who craves passion in filmmaking and documentarians are just that. I write fiction, but I love to watch the truth.

B.C. Wehman:
My name is B.C. Wehman. I'm an actor, a writer or entertainer, all sorts of creative endeavors, but what I love most, being a storyteller. It's why I love documentaries. They are extraordinary stories from everyday extraordinary people.

Sarah Willgrube:
And I'm Sarah Willgrube, the producer of Behind The Doc. Not only do I love movies, but I also work on them. This is Behind The Doc, and today we are behind the scenes of Behind The Doc.

Heather Grayson:
Documentaries teach us-

B.C. Wehman:
... inspire us-

Sarah Willgrube:
... take us places we've never been before.

B.C. Wehman:
Welcome everyone. I'm B.C. Wehman. That's Heather on the other side.

Heather Grayson:
Hey.

B.C. Wehman:
This is a special episode, Heather, we're going to go behind Behind The Doc. What?

Heather Grayson:
It's like memento or something. It's just, we're going to talk to the producer, Sarah Willgrube. I can't even believe it, this is special.

B.C. Wehman:
It is special. Behind The Doc has been a show that we hope you have enjoyed. And we have taken a deep dive into documentary filmmaking and the people that make them. We've had a great season one so far with the vast collection of amazing films, some hilarious, some sad, some inspirational, some head scratchers, a little bit of everything in between. And we love having the opportunity to get to know the film directors, the producers, sometimes the camera people, sometimes the stars themselves of the show. So it's been a wonderful opportunity that Gravitas Ventures has given us to put together this show along with Evergreen Podcast. And with that, Heather, I think we've got to bring in the... I don't know, is she like our third wheel? Is that the proper terminology? Part of the trilogy?

Heather Grayson:
Is she the wizard?

B.C. Wehman:
Are you a wizard behind the glass Sarah Willgrube?

Sarah Willgrube:
I am definitely the wizard behind the glass-

B.C. Wehman:
Welcome to [crosstalk 00:02:25]

Sarah Willgrube:
[crosstalk 00:02:25] and powerful Oz.

B.C. Wehman:
I feel like they don't get to hear from you, but this is Sarah Willgrube, she is our producer. She is what makes this go.

Heather Grayson:
She's really all of the work. B.C. and I just come in, we get to play, we get to have fun. And Sarah and Eric, who is our engineer, they are the ones that do the real work.

Sarah Willgrube:
Indeed.

B.C. Wehman:
So yes. And Eric Koltnow who is not joining us on the microphone. He's a man of few words, but of many artistic and electronical talents. We appreciate Eric back there, and makes magic happen. Thank you Eric Koltnow for that. But let's take a step back. Sarah, we got these films, we did 15 amazing documentary films this season. How did this whole show get started? I know that you found Heather and I, but how did Evergreen, how did Gravitas, how did Behind The Doc bird itself into existence?

Sarah Willgrube:
Actually it was our CEO, Michael, who came up with this idea. I believe he met Nolan of Gravitas somewhere and he wanted to form a relationship with them. And then knowing my film background, I was obviously the perfect producer for the job. So we had a couple meetings with them. I created the creative behind the show and we gave it to them and they liked it and started there.

Heather Grayson:
So for me, the reason I started looking at this was because I went on to the Cleveland Film Commission's website and saw that they were looking for somebody who wanted to be a host of a documentary podcast. And considering I probably watch close to 14, 15 documentaries a week, whether it's a series or a documentary, I definitely, I was like, I'm on this. This is something I can do, yet I've never been a host of anything nor have I been on the radio any sort. I'm not an actor, but I had to do it because documentaries are just my heart. And I met Sarah. I did the worst interview ever.

Sarah Willgrube:
Obviously you did not.

Heather Grayson:
Well at least listen. I was shaking in my boots, but I loved every second. So I very much thank Sarah for believing in me. And I think B.C. has a much better background in this sort of thing than I did. I was newbie.

B.C. Wehman:
We did come at this differently. I was simply just looking for another opportunity to talk. I mean, that's kind of what I do to try to find those moments. And so in seeing that and learning it was about filmmaking and documentary filmmaking, which I really enjoy watching, and then the opportunity to get to talk to people, I liked that experience. I like learning about what people's passions are and how they arrive at that moment. That's one of the questions that comes up a lot during the show is, how did you make this documentary? What are you doing?

B.C. Wehman:
And really a lot of it turns out to be just hard work, waking up and getting your camera ready or being like live the stream and tossing your waiters on at midnight and going in the river and filming. I mean, that's what it takes it. That is if there is a constant from all of our directors and producers throughout the show, it was wake up and do it. And so I think that's what the show is also, it's just, we had something that needed to be out there, something we wanted to learn about. And so to get a chance to talk to people and find out what they do. I always think that's very exciting to do, but I think it's been a good process. Heather and I did not know each other prior to the start, or Sarah-

Sarah Willgrube:
Nope.

B.C. Wehman:
... or Eric, none of us really knew each other, so-

Sarah Willgrube:
Well, I knew Eric.

B.C. Wehman:
Well, that happens.

Heather Grayson:
What I thought was so interesting was that Sarah chose B.C. and I, which to know... so we are both gingers. So that's one thing. Two, we're very... B.C. and I are very similar in what we like, not only in documentaries, but outside of documentaries, we think very much alike. So I thought it was really interesting that the hosts of the show are extremely alike in a lot of different ways.

Sarah Willgrube:
Part of your casting, because I did, I put a casting call out there on Cleveland film commission, some other Facebook pages, I think. You guys were two of probably like 15 candidates. And I think I only interviewed three or four of you and my boss, Brigid, she listened to all the voice tests they did. And it was kind of great because we both just thought that the two of you together were perfect. And so far we have been right.

B.C. Wehman:
How about for you, Sarah? You come from, one of your jobs is in the traditional film world. It's the most important role on the set script supervisor, got to make sure we know what words are said properly.

Sarah Willgrube:
Except that you make fun of my job.

B.C. Wehman:
I do often. Well, no, it's the same as Eric. We love you, but we only make fun of the ones we love. Thanks for showing up today, Eric. So coming from the world of script, supervisation, that's [inaudible 00:07:23] word. Supervising. How has this process been producing, dealing with the filmmakers and directors. And I want to talk a little bit about how you chose the 15 films that we did. How has that process been taking over behind the scenes kind of crew of a film to kind of running this whole mad little circus that the four of us do.

Sarah Willgrube:
It's like an intricate dance, just like filmmaking. So as a script supervisor for all of those out there in the world who don't know-

B.C. Wehman:
Oh, they all know, but tell them anyway. They're dying with anticipation to learn.

Sarah Willgrube:
We maintain continuity and we hang out by the director all day and we take notes for editorial about what's going on on set, and we translate pretty much everything that happens on set to editorial. But we also have to make sure that actors are saying the correct lines, that they're wearing the correct costumes, the right number of buttons are buttoned. They're holding their pen in the correct hand. All the super teeny tiny and meticulous things. So I also knew when I was casting you guys that I needed people that were familiar with filmmaking and you both did a lot of research. You guys came in and B.C., you did the most research on that test video that I sent you. I was so impressed.

Heather Grayson:
B.C. still does all the research. Let's be honest. I try to fill in, but man, he's got it.

B.C. Wehman:
I do like that part though. I enjoy that. And I don't remember the test film you sent me. It's starting to come. I think it was-

Sarah Willgrube:
It was a shot on coffee.

Heather Grayson:
It's about coconut. No, I thought it was coconuts.

B.C. Wehman:
It was the coconuts in the-

Sarah Willgrube:
Oh, see I don't even know.

B.C. Wehman:
Yeah. It was like the shots very much reminded me of In The Belly of The Moon was that kind of style of documentary, like taking a look at-

Heather Grayson:
And all subtitles.

B.C. Wehman:
Yes.

Heather Grayson:
I remember that.

B.C. Wehman:
Yeah.

Heather Grayson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

B.C. Wehman:
But I do remember going to deep dive into who directed it and made it and things like that. I think that stuff's fun. I think the behind the behind stuff is really interesting to learn about. So we got together and then we got ready for our very first one, which I think we were both very nervous about. You sent us the film and I don't know, let's go back. So we're very first one before we reveal the title. I don't know what I expected when we got started for documentaries, but I expected serious, real important information that's happening, not even so much a fluff piece, just like digging behind the scenes, maybe true crime. And then what shows up in my inbox?

Movie Clip:
So let's get into it. Who let the dogs out? Who did let the dogs out? It's one of the great unanswered questions of our time.

B.C. Wehman:
Who Let the Dogs Out, a movie about the making of a one hit wonder song, which we learned so much more about, but that was not what I expected to start this whole thing off. So I think starting with a, I'll say a movie about a silly topic, a serious movie about a silly topic was a great way to get it rolling. Heather, what was your first impression when you saw that our movie to kick this off was going to be about a song played at baseball stadiums that people sing along, the kids sing.

Heather Grayson:
Well, honestly I didn't expect anything. I wasn't thinking of... I had no preconceived notions, but I was really excited when Who Let the Dogs Out, because if you all listened, I very much knew it because that was... we played it all the time in my high school. So I was like, I know this song. Now, I realized that I didn't know half of what I actually... it was not what I thought it was. And that's why we love documentaries, is because we learn so much more about it, but I was excited to see it. And I thought it was going to be a lot of fun and I was already like, all right, she's cool.

Sarah Willgrube:
Well, to be honest, I really didn't like documentaries before starting this process. Now I love them. Working on this podcast has totally changed my perspective. But as someone who didn't like documentaries, I was like, I don't want to start the show with something serious and stuffy and boring. So when Who Let the Dogs Out came up in the list of possible movies that I could do, I knew 100% that that was what I wanted to start the series with.

Sarah Willgrube:
It was so fun. We were all singing who let the dogs out in our heads over and over and over again. But it was also super relevant to my podcast work at the time because I had just gotten done licensing eight or nine comedy albums for another podcast that I work on. So copyright law was so fresh in my mind that it all just kind of went together perfectly.

B.C. Wehman:
So do you watch all of these films before you give them to us?

Sarah Willgrube:
I watch a lot of them. Sometimes I'll just watch the trailers and that'll give me a good enough idea if that's something I want to include in our season, but all the ones that I give you guys, I have definitely watched beforehand.

B.C. Wehman:
I was just curious of the 15 we did if you had to watch 30 or so to whittle down to that number, or if you... How many was your initial list to choose from to get to the 15 that we ended up doing?

Sarah Willgrube:
Well, the list changed. I probably have viewed over 60 different documentary trailers at least.

B.C. Wehman:
Nice.

Sarah Willgrube:
Yeah.

Heather Grayson:
What I like about the documentaries and how you pick them is that you pick them based on not only would you want to watch them, but if you think that other people you're just sitting there, if you're a brand new documentary watcher, which I think is great because you were. So when you picked all of these, you can tell like, okay, well, would I really love to watch something about World War II? I don't know if that would be the very first thing that I would want to look at when I was a first-time documentary watcher. So I think that all of these documentaries that you chose minus one, because there was one that was chosen by B.C., but-

Sarah Willgrube:
Yes, there was.

Heather Grayson:
Yes, there was. I think that they were all really good because first-time documentary watchers would be like, oh yeah, okay, this is good. I can relate to this. I like this. I'm going to watch more documentaries. So that's what I really, I liked about all of them. I mean, I am the girl who watches straight 16 hours of World War II history documentary. That is me. Ken Burns and I, we have a thing. He doesn't know it, but we do. I really appreciate that about all the documentaries you chose.

B.C. Wehman:
Well, it says something because our first three films, Who Let the Dogs Out with Brent Hodge and then Life Without Basketball, which started Bilqis Abdul-Qaadir and her story of dealing with basketball and her religion and trying to play professionally while dealing with those growing up aspects of life. And then Vinnie Tortorich and Fat: A Documentary. There are three very different films, right? One about diet and weight loss, which is a very popular trend these days. There's a lot of documentaries about food science. One about the human spirit and then one about copyright law, which happens to be wrapped around a brilliant hook, right? A brilliant little chorus line.

B.C. Wehman:
So it's really three unique films that started off with three very different kind of subjects. How did you feel Heather, as you started to watch? We all say we watch documentaries and we do that, but now we're watching them, right? Watching them once, maybe twice, taking notes, then digging back into it and following up. I don't watch a film and then go look, I'm not the type of person who would look up the person's life on the internet or Facebook, but now I do that. I watch these films and I dig deep into their lives, and research. Has that been as enjoyable for you or do you find it takes away a little bit having to learn so much more about it?

Heather Grayson:
I think that if they were really bad documentaries, then yes, but I mean, I think really so far the documentaries chosen have been really good and they've taught me something. Even with the next three documentaries, they were all very different. So just changing it up was really wonderful for me. And then whenever I got to know, like... by the way Bilqis and her husband had a baby, and so congrats. So now I'm following them and their lives, which I think is even cooler. I love it all.

Sarah Willgrube:
And I was going to say like, you guys have both semi formed relationships with different filmmakers too.

Heather Grayson:
Yes.

Sarah Willgrube:
Like Heather, I know you kept up with the guys from the unknown tour, B.C., you were just telling us today how David from CBD nation is going to be-

B.C. Wehman:
Yeah. We speak in an event I host, so yeah. So we have these weird relationships that have formed outside of it from these folks that we just talk to for an hour or so like that. I think on average, we interview everyone for about an hour, 45 minutes to an hour and then the shows end up being about 30, 35 minutes, give or take, with the film clips put into it. Oh, let me ask you that, Sarah, because I want to dig into the documentaries themselves a little bit about each one. The creation of the podcast itself.

B.C. Wehman:
So, and I don't think I knew until I heard the first one. I don't think you told me at all. Heather, I don't know if you knew this, that when you were going to intercut a lot of audio clips and music, really make it a great production. Was that the plan always early on or did you find our questions mundane and boring? And you're like, I need to spice this up and put a little bit of footage into there. How did that production style come about that is Behind The Doc as we know it, with the interviews combined with the clips, combined with some of the music.

Sarah Willgrube:
It was always the plan, so it's not that your questions are boring. I wanted if like you hadn't watched the movie, that you would still be able to have some sort of idea of what was going on in the episode. So to do that using movie clips was an automatic given. And then as I developed it a little bit more, like the introductions that we do, those are basically a small summary of the movie. So again, if you had never watched it, you can have a small idea of what's going on. I definitely recommend that everyone watches all the movies we've done episodes on because they're all fantastic.

B.C. Wehman:
So let's go back, let's [inaudible 00:17:25] our way back machine here. When did we record Who Let the Dogs Out? Like six months from before this?

Heather Grayson:
February.

Sarah Willgrube:
I think it was in February

Heather Grayson:
Yeah, February. It was like right after Valentine's day.

B.C. Wehman:
Okay. So it's been almost seven months now since we've sat and recorded that, what do you remember Heather, from Who Let the Dogs Out? Whether the film or the moment, I remember being very nervous, first of all, regardless of the film, just sitting in here and to further pull back to fourth wall, I guess I always pictured, or maybe you thought Heather and I are in the same room, we're in these two separate booths looking at each other through glass kind of thing. We're stuck inside these rooms that we can only see each other through the wall. Yeah.

Heather Grayson:
I would say, I mean, I was really nervous, but what was good was that B.C. is really, he's very good at what he does. And so for me, I felt more comfortable with him being able to take the lead and then what we automatically did. Because I don't even think we discussed it. We automatically just started pointing at each other or putting our hands up whenever one of us wanted to ask a question. And I thought that that was like, that was the first day. We were like, oh my gosh, we already have this kind of instinct. Even when we were at home, we would remember we had our phones on-

B.C. Wehman:
Oh, yes.

Heather Grayson:
We were Facetiming each other. It was very cool.

B.C. Wehman:
It's an odd landed skill to have three or four people in your head at the same time and not really be able to see them and then to carry on a conversation without over-talking. And we do some of that and thankfully, Eric is able to clean that up so it doesn't sound like it, but it happens all the time. But it's a weird thing to do to have all these people in your head. I think we had Brent and, was it Victoria?

Sarah Willgrube:
Allie.

Heather Grayson:
Allie. Yeah.

B.C. Wehman:
I think we had Brent and Allie on our first show.

Heather Grayson:
That's your [inaudible 00:19:11] let's cut that out.

B.C. Wehman:
Yeah, let's cut that out.

Sarah Willgrube:
I'm not cutting that out.

B.C. Wehman:
We had two people. That's how it starts. I mean, you see like, is it two people or one people on that show? I don't remember.

Heather Grayson:
Two people or one people.

B.C. Wehman:
Yes. Two people or one people.

Sarah Willgrube:
That's Eric's question for me usually too, because I'm that great at communicating with him. How many people am I waiting for in this squad cast?

B.C. Wehman:
So we had Brent and Allie. So our very first show we ended up... we're here in Northeast, Ohio, Lakewood, shout out suburb of Cleveland. And then we end up in, I think Vancouver and Toronto. I think Allie was in Toronto and Brent was in Vancouver or something like that. So our very first one, we have people totally different as sides of the continent as we're sitting here right in the middle of them, basically trying to talk and have all the different time zones and such. And it was an interesting feat that when you hear it pulls together really well. But I think for our first show, I was really happy with Brett and Allie, they were really great to talk to. It was an interesting story. I mean, they kept it light and fun. So it was a really good one I think, to get ourselves comfortable and kind of develop some of those routines.

Sarah Willgrube:
I think some of my favorite moments are when B.C. pulls out these questions and just surprises the filmmakers about the knowledge that he has found on them. Paul and-

Heather Grayson:
And the strawberry milk.

Sarah Willgrube:
... the strawberry milk. What else? What else, B.C.? Who else have we surprised?

B.C. Wehman:
There was... see, this is where I'm really, really bad with names. There was one that was from, it's not Gay Master.

Heather Grayson:
Well, you did geek out with Gay Master, for sure.

B.C. Wehman:
Gay Master, I did. That was the one who was the waiter that was on the Kardashians.

Heather Grayson:
Oh yes. That was Charlie, right?

Sarah Willgrube:
Yeah. That was Gay Master.

Heather Grayson:
That was Gay Master.

B.C. Wehman:
It was Gay Master.

Movie Clip:
I think everyone on earth has played and enjoyed some kind of tabletop game. They're just so universal whether they played them when they were younger, whether it's something they learned to play when they're older, whether it was something that was within their family, tabletop games are almost just a universal phenomenon.

B.C. Wehman:
He was the director who... well, it just shows you what it's like to make a documentary film. While doing that he's waiting tables and in the background, he happens to be on a Real House or not, was it Real Housewives?

Heather Grayson:
Yeah, it was Real Housewives of LA or something.

B.C. Wehman:
A Real Housewives episode where they kind of liked him and he was deemed the cute waiter. So after all this work he's done, he's still by far, best known as the cute waiter for that show. That by the way, Gay Masters is I am a big board gaming geek was the one that I asked for which Sarah's first reply was, "Oh, I thought that was boring, but okay."

Sarah Willgrube:
Sorry, filmmakers.

B.C. Wehman:
Turned out to be exhilarating and awesome and amazing, just like all the rest of them were. But I think our first couple Who Let the Dogs Out in life without basketball were really interviewcentric, where we really had to ask a lot of questions and work with our subjects to get all information out of them.

Movie Clip:
Coming out, my senior year, I went to the combine, I played in front of all these Scouts and I'm just like, Casey, you might not be a pro. I prepared myself to kind of be put in a place where I might not play. And actually I wasn't thinking it because I was Muslim, it was because maybe I'm not good enough.

Heather Grayson:
Life Without Basketball, we have three people because we remember Bilqis, she came in later on. So we had three people.

Sarah Willgrube:
That one was crazy. So before COVID hit, I hired Tape Syncs to go and actually record the audio so that we could get the best recordings possible. And the tape sync that I hired, Bilqis lives in Canada, and he was driving from New York, which should have just been an easy, I think, hour to an hour and a half drive that he chose to do, but it was also during a snow storm. So he wasn't getting to Bilqis' house until like super late, but I didn't want to lose her interview. But also John was in Abu Dhabi, so he was doing the interview at like 3:00 AM. It's a great episode, but we had to overcome so many challenges for that.

Heather Grayson:
And my favorite part about the challenges of Tape Syncs and Squad Cast is Eric's... He has to tell every single filmmaker, let's talk about your microphone. Let's talk about... And VC, and I just love it. It's one of my favorite things to start every episode off with is Eric's vast knowledge of microphones, because now I think he knows every single one as well as what, is it a PC or is it a Mac?

Sarah Willgrube:
Yeah. PC Mac systems, where the audio controls are?

Heather Grayson:
And I love it whenever they say, "Oh, it's Mac." He's like, "Oh thank God." Like every single time.

B.C. Wehman:
If we have to put ourselves into Eric's handsomely haired shoes, he has this set up exactly how he wants it. The microphones are what he wants, all the information. Either computer processing, whatever happens behind the scenes is what he wants. But we deal with people all over the world who have a variety of microphone setups from just the in-line microphone on their laptop to a potential microphone set up with a mixer board in their house because they do their own podcasts like Vinnie Tortorich, right? So we have a variety of professional level studios to earbuds, headphones from the X-Box, these types of things. So to make all of those different aspects work, every single week, he has to go through and grab a different type of microphone and make it sound and match up with ours. So as much as we give him crap and his pre-audit routine is very fun to listen to. He does an amazing job making it sound well.

Heather Grayson:
Oh, Vinnie [crosstalk 00:24:48] You brought up Vinnie.

B.C. Wehman:
The first two, I felt like were heavy interviews, but then we rolled to our third show, Fat: A Documentary.

Movie Clip:
We're in a war for information, and the fallout affects all of us. The media is just going to sell what people are going to buy. And if people knew the truth, they will know to ask for. My name is Vinnie Tortorich, and I've been in the health and fitness game for the better part of 40 years, specializing in weight loss. Over the years, I've seen everything come and go at least 100 times. But as a country we've only gotten fatter

B.C. Wehman:
Vinnie Tortorich, who was a talker, an amazing talker, let's just put it that way. The guy just was able to take over the show. And so it was one where after getting our feet wet and trying to understand how we like to interview people kind of turned us on our heels 180 a bit, because now we are the ones who are kind of listening and trying to fight [crosstalk 00:25:43]

Heather Grayson:
He was almost interviewing us.

B.C. Wehman:
Yes. It turned it a bit.

Heather Grayson:
It was a very different experience, I will say. Even I think that's probably the only experience we've really had in that nature. That was a lot of fun.

Sarah Willgrube:
He really was interviewing you guys.

Heather Grayson:
Yeah.

Sarah Willgrube:
I might've cut it out of the episode, but there were like, he was using car metaphors and he asked B.C. what kind of car he drove.

Heather Grayson:
But it was great. I mean, overall, we learned a lot. We did learn what kind of alcohol we can drink when we're on keto.

B.C. Wehman:
I still think about him every time I had an [IP 00:26:15] over the weekend. Every time I opened that IPA, I think about Vinnie in my head. I still drink it, but I do think about him scolding me for the amount of calories that are in my PA.

Heather Grayson:
Man, I haven't had beer in so long, I couldn't even tell you what it tastes like.

B.C. Wehman:
Vinnie would be proud of you. If you want to go no sugar, no grains, you can't be rocking the alcohol.

Sarah Willgrube:
So we might not be able to drink beer, but can we drink mezcal?

Movie Clip:
Mezcal is a spirit that has been hidden in plain sight for far too long. Through clever marketing by the authorities, mezcal was banished to the fringes of what was considered proper society to make way for brandies and Spanish cognacs. Mezcal is now a conduit that is helping to connect people to a profound heritage.

Heather Grayson:
B.C., why don't you tell us about that morning?

B.C. Wehman:
Well, that's the only show that we drank alcohol during.

Heather Grayson:
At 9:00 in the morning.

B.C. Wehman:
Okay. First of all, I knew early on so-

Sarah Willgrube:
Everyone that employs us, please don't listen to this part.

B.C. Wehman:
Come on. We're entertainers. Sarah didn't. Sarah and Eric didn't, they're professionals.

Sarah Willgrube:
Exactly. Sarah and Eric didn't.

Heather Grayson:
Yes, they did not.

B.C. Wehman:
We're hosts, were entertainment, right? It's kind of like a rock star, no matter what you do, we're still awesome. You have to have that.

Heather Grayson:
We might have thrown a TV out the window. I don't know.

B.C. Wehman:
So we are doing In The Belly of The Moon, which is the story of mezcal, which I didn't even know what it was, but it turns out it's... well, tequila is a form of mezcal. So it's from the Agave plant. I mean, it's about the production of the old school production of this spirit. And I had never heard of it and then when I knew we were doing it, I said it made sense to buy it, turned out buying it was a little more difficult than I realized. It's not readily available and what is, is by far not the mezcal that they drink. And it just so happened that Sarah scheduled it at 9:00 in the morning once again.

Sarah Willgrube:
It was not 9:00, it was 11:00.

B.C. Wehman:
But I think it was because they were in other parts of the country. Wasn't one in Germany for that one?

Heather Grayson:
Yeah.

Sarah Willgrube:
Germany and [Aruba 00:28:08].

B.C. Wehman:
We have two once again dealing with that. So we're 11:00 in the morning, which it's pretty close to lunch. So no matter what time it... it could have been at 7:00, Sarah, we were cracking that bottle. So we brought the mezcal out and took a shot, so we have these little glasses. It was okay. It wasn't great. Heather's reaction though, not as-

Heather Grayson:
[crosstalk 00:28:27]

B.C. Wehman:
So if it makes the bosses feel better, Heather took one sip and was like no.

Heather Grayson:
No. Tequila and I are friends, but mezcal and I are not, it is a very different taste. I was curious and now I am no longer curious.

Sarah Willgrube:
But that wasn't high quality mezcal either.

B.C. Wehman:
Who told us that? Eric.

Heather Grayson:
Eric did [crosstalk 00:28:50]

B.C. Wehman:
Once again, audio engineer, mezcal maestro.

Heather Grayson:
[inaudible 00:28:52]. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B.C. Wehman:
Along those lines. So it was a low budget well mezcal, did have the worm in the bottom, which I never... I ended up drinking that whole bottle.

Heather Grayson:
I don't even know if I-

Sarah Willgrube:
Did you eat the worm?

B.C. Wehman:
No, I chickened out.

Sarah Willgrube:
You should have.

B.C. Wehman:
I know I should have, I was not able to.

Heather Grayson:
I want to talk about the Unknown Tour.

Movie Clip:
There were five of us, we quit our jobs and hit the road in search of the forgotten musicians scattered across the United States. As we hung around waiting for the bus to recharge, we reflected on the choir we met the night before.

Heather Grayson:
That one I think collectively made us all kind of have the happy feeling, we all got goosebumps from it. And then the guys, remember there were five in a room.

Sarah Willgrube:
Yes, I do.

Heather Grayson:
Do you remember that insanity? But it was so much fun and they were hilarious. And yeah, I kept in touch with them because they are a great group of people. I mean, I think all of our filmmakers, I don't think any of them... they were all so nice and pleasant and wonderful and just ready to give us a great interview. I think that it was just so much fun, every one of them, but the Unknown Tour, with all that music, because I'm a music person and it was just beautiful. Beautiful. I know, Sarah, you really love that one too.

Sarah Willgrube:
I did. It gave me all the fields.

Heather Grayson:
Yeah, it did. It did. It was good. It was good. And just, I mean, I really enjoyed that one and that's one that really sticks to my mind. I mean, there are a couple that really stick in my mind, that one is one of them. For sure Jasper Mall, because we all... I mean, I grew up in the... I always say born in the 80s, raised in the 90s and it really gave me the sense of kids and [Gummo 00:30:45] and stuff like that. Just really cool parts of that kind of film. And then we discovered that there is a... he's from Australia, right?

Sarah Willgrube:
Yeah.

Heather Grayson:
Mike Weis?

Sarah Willgrube:
New Zealand.

Heather Grayson:
New Zealand, yeah. He was like the New Zealand tiger king. Right?

B.C. Wehman:
Yes.

Heather Grayson:
That is cool. That was fun.

Movie Clip:
Mark Weis, her company, they were over this mall and then she got transferred and I was coming through. I was bringing tigers to a zoo and I stopped by here to see her. And I'd come through when I was moving animals and stuff, and start [inaudible 00:31:24] started coming in and spending some time with her and stuff. And then the owner offered me a job and I said, well, okay, so I've been doing it.

B.C. Wehman:
I cry a lot. Right? I cry a lot when watching films. And I know that-

Heather Grayson:
He's a crier.

B.C. Wehman:
I am. I probably cried during Unknown Tour, but I'll tell you the-

Heather Grayson:
I did.

B.C. Wehman:
... movie that I cried by far the most during, and it was definitely a whole just like cats in the cradle, like life-

Sarah Willgrube:
Live The Stream?

B.C. Wehman:
Yes. 1000% Live The Stream.

Movie Clip:
What got me hooked on fly fishing? The interest. It was almost an eight. It was there. I was born with it. I've always felt strongly about it as a piece of water, a stream, like it's almost running through my system and my body. And I think that started at such a tender age. I love to play in the water. I loved the weight in the water. I love to look for things in the water. And so it was just a natural.

B.C. Wehman:
I've probably seen Live The Stream more than any of the movies we watched. I've rewatched it a couple of times. The story of Joe Humphreys, going along, living his life, drinking what still looks like the best darn coffee on the planet, out of the natural spring water, doing his thing and just hearing his journey regardless of the fishing, and then that on top of it, it was just really emotional.

B.C. Wehman:
And it really hit me in a spot, particularly today's world when everyone seems so busy and so absorbed with their own opinions and those things to just follow a man who has just done the best he can to be the best person, not flawless, but making mistakes and living life and just getting up early and fishing and teaching that to whoever wants to learn was just... I'm going to cry right now. It was just really, it's really good. It just really hit me in a spot that really sunk on. That was one of my favorite films that we watched.

Heather Grayson:
B.C., did you see on... because I know you're barely on Instagram, but I tagged you and Sarah, that he-

Sarah Willgrube:
Oh, I saw.

Heather Grayson:
... that he did what he set out to do.

B.C. Wehman:
He caught the 20 pound Brown?

Sarah Willgrube:
He caught the 20 pound Brown.

Heather Grayson:
Yes, he did. Yeah. He did it like, I don't know, what was it? A month ago maybe, two months ago?

Sarah Willgrube:
Something like that. Yeah.

Heather Grayson:
Yeah. So yeah, I saw that and I was like, I tagged you both in it and I was like, oh my gosh. But yeah, it was really, I loved it. I mean, and to go back, even to go back to that, I mean, there were so many of the filmmakers when it comes to the documentaries that they made, such different, not only ways of how they got each of their documentaries funded that we found out.

Heather Grayson:
So, I mean, just such a different budget wise when it comes to production value and everything else like that, but they were all so beautifully made and put together that in the long run, it's like, as somebody who's listening to our podcast and watching these films, you can really say to yourself, okay, looking at all these diverse films, I can certainly make a documentary with 5,000 or if I can do it, I can make a documentary for 150,000. It's just, but you can show that it's possible anyway, that's what I really liked about the start of the podcast and what we've been talking to the filmmakers about.

B.C. Wehman:
Well, there's a gigantic difference say, between the budget of Pigeon Kings.

Movie Clip:
All the pigeons are bred to perform. The average Birmingham roller can do four to five revolutions in a split second. We just try and get them to perform together, something like synchronized swimming.

B.C. Wehman:
Watching them in their day-to-day life and watching these mostly young men in the inner city of Los Angeles and learning the sport of pigeon rolling and how it kind of keeps them off the streets and gives them these lessons in life to learn versus say, and I don't know if the budget counts, but if you want to look at the budget of say, In Bright Axiom, which is a gigantic thing if you not only take the film budget, but Jeff's whole, I don't know what we call it, fakeness. I don't know what exactly... his whole experiment-

Heather Grayson:
Well, art. His art. Yeah.

B.C. Wehman:
[crosstalk 00:35:15] experiments that he put on, which ended up being-

Sarah Willgrube:
Immersive art experience.

Heather Grayson:
Yes.

Movie Clip:
Our purpose is to create and gift experiences. Why? I don't know. So I'm asking you. I have some strong thoughts about it, but why would you say? Why do we do this?

Movie Clip:
[inaudible 00:35:40]

Movie Clip:
Exactly.

Movie Clip:
To make the magic.

Movie Clip:
Okay, that's enough. That's enough. Experiences are the foundation for the world we think we live in, right? The experiences we have coalescence into the beliefs and ideas we hold to be true.

B.C. Wehman:
So he spends ton amount of money renting out buildings in San Francisco and putting giant on the 13th floor of a sky rise at a whole sand pit so people can go in and play in the sand. So those are two very different aspects. There was this little turn we took in the middle of it. We were kind of going along with these kinds of human nature stories and following people along. And then all of a sudden Sarah tosses in In Bright Axiom and The House in Between. So now-

Heather Grayson:
Yeah, that was weird.

B.C. Wehman:
... it got weird there for a moment there. I don't know if you're feeling, we're getting all these happy-go-lucky stories of Live The Stream and then [crosstalk 00:36:28]

Sarah Willgrube:
You got to get weird, B.C. You got to get weird.

B.C. Wehman:
So In Bright Axiom and The House in Between were a little bit different. The House in Between is a good old ghost story.

Movie Clip:
There's something there that lets you know it's there.

Movie Clip:
This house, it's really grabbed me, it's got its hooks sinked into me. There's a lot of things that happen in this house that we can't explain

B.C. Wehman:
Done by the team that does that show, Ghost Chase... not Ghost Chasers, that's the fake one.

Heather Grayson:
Ghost hunters?

B.C. Wehman:
Ghost Hunters.

Heather Grayson:
Yeah.

B.C. Wehman:
[crosstalk 00:37:01] it's supernatural. Ghost Hunters from Steve Gonzalez-

Heather Grayson:
Gonzalves.

B.C. Wehman:
Gonzalves. You should know how many times we work on pronouncing the names.

Heather Grayson:
Like 100, because I'm terrible.

B.C. Wehman:
It's one of the first things we do. I'm like, you need to say your name and just say it again. I have to ask the guests to say their name again and again and again. And then the key is you only say it once in the beginning and then you just never say it again, right? That's the trick to it.

Heather Grayson:
The key of me is I make B.C. do it.

B.C. Wehman:
The House in Between and In Bright Axiom brought a little bit different feel to it

Sarah Willgrube:
While we're talking about The House in Between, we have got to talk about what happened in the studio-

B.C. Wehman:
So weird.

Sarah Willgrube:
... and how it has literally never happened before, and we did not plan it. There were really ghosts in here shocking, Heather.

Heather Grayson:
There was. There was. Not only shocking me, but then turning off the entire podcast in itself. We could not talk to the guests, but what was weird is that they could hear us, but we couldn't hear them. It was so strange. Never happened before and has never happened after.

Sarah Willgrube:
And Eric has even co corroborated that, if I can even say that word, because he's worked here the longest.

Heather Grayson:
It was so weird.

B.C. Wehman:
It does seem odd and relistening to it, it seems a little fake.

Sarah Willgrube:
It's not.

B.C. Wehman:
I know that.

Sarah Willgrube:
It's not fake.

B.C. Wehman:
I know that because I was listening. I was there when it happened, but it feels that way because it's a show about spookiness and supernatural occurrences. And then during that show, we had these weird electrical surges, which were physically painfully tormenting Heather because they were-

Heather Grayson:
They were.

B.C. Wehman:
... not just... I had nothing. She would just stop talking, and that's all I would hear. But she was getting like a shock, which shouldn't be possible the way the voltage goes through these headphones. So every time she would ask a question, it would happen. It went so much so that I started asking all the questions and I had zero problems. It was hers set up and it was odd.

Heather Grayson:
They were leaving through me. I mean, I don't know what to say.

Sarah Willgrube:
Or maybe B.C., they just knew that you weren't a believer. They could feel it.

Heather Grayson:
Maybe.

B.C. Wehman:
But I did like The House in Between, how they tried to debunk their own stories by going to and finding. And I liked that story about Trying to Find Steve told about all the different geologists and scientists who would not even talk to them on camera because it was like, we're not talking about your silly ghost those stories. And then we had, let's see, we did Tread.

Movie Clip:
Hello. My name is Marvin Heemeyer. Today is April 13, 2004. This tape is about my life since I come up here in 1991. I am making this tape. [inaudible 00:39:38] make any difference if I didn't make it, but a good friend of mine said I should make it. And he said I should sit down in front of video tape machine and do it. You're just going to have to take my words, just [inaudible 00:39:48] real number 503689471. I want to say right now dad left me in advance for the test that I am about to undertake.

Heather Grayson:
Yeah, Tread was awesome. That was creepy. I mean creepy in a different sort of way because he was the main character in Tread, was a very disturbed and terrorized human being in his own mind. He obviously had some mental illness that was going on and terrorized an entire town. So it's a very creepy film on another level.

B.C. Wehman:
So Tread though had an interesting story, that it was the 40th anniversary of that experience that happened in Colorado, and it also shares a special moment with you as well, Heather.

Heather Grayson:
Yeah, it happened on my birthday.

B.C. Wehman:
It happened on your birthday.

Heather Grayson:
I was 24 that year. And that makes me obvious, I did not remember this occurring. I definitely was like, when he said June 4th, 2004, I was like, wait a minute, no wonder I don't remember that, I was probably at a bar.

B.C. Wehman:
It's clearly not the 40th anniversary, as I just said then because that's, if you were only 24, it's the 16th anniversary then. Something like that.

Sarah Willgrube:
Good point.

B.C. Wehman:
Yeah, it's a good point, as I said that. So I thought it happened on the day you were born.

Heather Grayson:
No, no, it was just my 24th birthday.

B.C. Wehman:
As you're saying that I'm like, hold on, because that would have happened in 1980. The footage was, those cars weren't from the 80s. I was getting maybe sometimes Jasper Mall from the 80s, we're going to swing this back around, that's what made me think of it.

Heather Grayson:
Let's save it. Save it, B.C. Save it.

B.C. Wehman:
Jasper Mall in the 80s. Tread was-

Sarah Willgrube:
2014.

B.C. Wehman:
2014. It was 2014?

Sarah Willgrube:
I think so.

Heather Grayson:
I thought it was 2004.

Sarah Willgrube:
We don't actually know, audience.

Heather Grayson:
I really thought it was 24, because that's when I turned 24, anyways-

B.C. Wehman:
I'm sure you were-

Heather Grayson:
... regardless.

B.C. Wehman:
You're probably the most right because of your birthday.

Sarah Willgrube:
Exactly.

B.C. Wehman:
I'm sure we knew it when we asked him and interviewed him as we've talked. We have copious notes before we record.

Sarah Willgrube:
And we fact check, so just because I don't know now, it doesn't mean I didn't know then.

B.C. Wehman:
Yes. We'll eventually find out the truth. So Tread came out and then we wrapped up the last couple of ones of our season. We talked a little bit about In The Belly of The Moon, that one, once again, half subtitled, but not subtitled, in Spanish without subtitles or translation. So you just kind of had to work through it. And I found myself becoming more immersed into the film because I didn't know what was being said. So you just started to watch these men work in those fields and make the mezcal and things like that. So that was interesting.

Heather Grayson:
I liked that for making.

Sarah Willgrube:
And it's so poetic. It's not your typical documentary, just like Jasper Mall wasn't your typical documentary. They really expanded the genre and made it their own.

B.C. Wehman:
I think some of our final films were I would say traditional documentaries, but interesting in note, say CBD Nation and Happy Happy Joy Joy, both are talking heads with some animation between the moments and then some research while two very different topics. One the boom and the rise of CBD and its use treated medicinally.

Movie Clip:
When most of us think about cannabis, we think about people getting high. So the thing in cannabis that gets you what we call high is something called THC. THC is a compound in the cannabis plant, but THC is just one of hundreds of known compounds inside the cannabis plant. And it is the only one of those compounds that makes you high. These compounds are called cannabinoids. The two most commonly found cannabinoids in cannabis or THC and another one, CBD.

B.C. Wehman:
And Happy Happy Joy Joy.

Movie Clip:
A single sentence explanation of [inaudible 00:43:46] who, let's see, where do you start?

Movie Clip:
That's a really hard one. How would you describe it?

Movie Clip:
I don't know. Nothing else like it.

Movie Clip:
It seems to be about a dog and a cat, but it's lot more than that.

Movie Clip:
It's an animated show about two friends who happened to be a dog and a cat. They live on the precipice of insanity and death.

B.C. Wehman:
The story and creation of Ren and Stimpy of Spumco studios of John Kay, and then the quick demise of all of it. Both traditional style, two very different stories, but ones say for Happy Happy Joy Joy, that was, we talk about going back to our youth and Jasper Mall. The cartoon that Heather and I both grew up on didn't really think much about. I was surprised to learn as a parent now, how violent it was in some of the moments that happened on screen. It was nice to see learning about same as Jasper Mall, some moments from your youth and having some realities pulled back from there.

Heather Grayson:
My kids who wanted... my two daughters, one is 12 and one is nine. I had them watch the episode of Ren and Stimpy, the fireman episode. I was watching at night, my daughter looked over at me and she said, "Mom, this is really inappropriate." And I was like, "Oh my goodness, that's right. I lived in a way different world than you do now." It's very so silly how you look back at things, but Gay Masters was B.C.'s choice. It was already on the list, but when Sarah said, do you like anything? I was like, Happy Happy Joy Joy. I want to watch it, because I loved Ren and Stimpy. My whole family, we would sit down and watch.

Heather Grayson:
It was just something that we all really enjoyed and I loved it. So that was mine. But I mean, all of the documentaries in this particular season were so different and well done, and just a testament to not only the filmmakers, but documentarians and Gravitas for picking it up. Until about five or six years ago were pretty hard to sell. I mean, I used to sell them and I'll tell you what, they were really hard to sell. It's such a different world, and I can't wait to see what more we have for next season.

B.C. Wehman:
I think in general, watching documentaries and having this preconceived notion of what they are, watching 15 different ones in a short amount of time, the different types of filmmaking techniques used, none of which I knew the terminology heading into it, and I learned a lot throughout it. But whether it's the animation or whether it's just straight footage, a great drone shot, which you know I love. I love a good drone shot when they toss it.

Heather Grayson:
You could make a drinking game out of drone shots and B.C., I tell you that.

B.C. Wehman:
We'd all be hammered on mezcal very, very quickly though. All those different aspects of styles of filmmaking, it's not just one type. And we are in a boon right now, 2020 with shows like Tiger King or McMillians. We've had a big documentaries, as Heather said, the last couple of years have seen that embracement. And if you go to any streaming service, we probably all have a few. The documentary section is always full of new movies in interesting titles, and every day there's a new one that seems to come across that talks about some subject that really gets into people. So documentaries have really taken off.

B.C. Wehman:
We're in a time of information. And I think that really is a way to get information across in a very easable, easy to view way. So I'm really excited to watch these different films and their stories, the people that went through them to see what happens in next season, what films we get and learn their stories.

Sarah Willgrube:
Before we sign off, what was your favorite episode of the podcast? Go.

B.C. Wehman:
My favorite movie is Live The Stream, just for a lot of different reasons. So my favorite film watching it and they all were good, but it just hit me in a way on an emotional level that I can't describe my favorite episode in relistening to it might be In Bright Axiom. I think he was just an amazing interview and really one that we weren't sure how to handle In Bright Axiom, because it is a documentary on a thing that's not real, but people thought it was real kind of vibe. So was he going to play it straight? Are we going to pull back the curtain? We weren't sure, And he was just all in. So that was one of my favorite interviews and might be one of my favorite episodes.

Sarah Willgrube:
Heather.

Heather Grayson:
I'm going to have to say, I don't have a favorite Doc, because I loved The Unknown Tour. I loved In Bright Axiom. I loved Jasper Mall. I loved Live The Stream. They were all just so good, but so I can't pick one of the favorite of Docs, but I will say that my favorite interview was probably, I'm going to have to agree. I think In Bright Axiom was super fun. We didn't know what was going to happen.

Heather Grayson:
We really had a script of how we were going to play it and then all of a sudden it was, oh, okay, well this is way more interesting and clear than I thought this was going to be. It was definitely a lot of fun. But I do think that the unknown tour was my favorite interview because at the end, the entire group of guys told B.C. and I that it was the best interview they've ever done. So I got to say that was awesome. And Jasper Mall, I really loved that one too. Man, I just can't, I'm not a favorite. I [crosstalk 00:49:23]

Sarah Willgrube:
[inaudible 00:49:23]

Heather Grayson:
It is.

B.C. Wehman:
You always have a favorite... I'm not going to tell you who it is, but you always have one, right? Daddy loves you all, but you always have one that really is your super favorite. So it's kind of like that, as you said it though, as I'm starting to think through the episodes, I remember who let the dogs out all the way back to Brett and Allie, kind of their first one. So there's a lot of them that stick out.

Heather Grayson:
It's just half.

B.C. Wehman:
The Unknown Tour is a great one.

Heather Grayson:
I mean, and Richie and his dad, we stand corrected.

Movie Clip:
The officer has no need to know what an inmate has been sentenced for. The only time we know that information is if you take an inmate out on a medical trip or a court trip, you're going to look at his record and see what he's in for. See whether he has any escape attempts.

Heather Grayson:
Remember the song? You went ballistic over the song.

B.C. Wehman:
They have an awesome song.

Heather Grayson:
It was just, it was so... I don't know. I can't pick a favorite episode. I loved them all. I think they were all done really well. I love how the audio clips are in there. I very much love that she picks the best questions that B.C. and I both ask. We get cut into a great episode and it all sounds really well finished. It's polished, well manicured. She makes me sound good.

Sarah Willgrube:
I think my favorite documentary was Jasper Mall because I just feel like it was so similar to Gummo. It was crazy. And I think my favorite episode is also In Bright Axiom across the board. Thanks everyone for listening to our bonus episode and thank you for listening to our season, and we'll see you next time.

Heather Grayson:
Bye.

B.C. Wehman:
Bye (silence).

Heather Grayson:
Thanks for listening to this episode of Behind The Doc. If you liked us, because we all know you did, leave us a review in your Apple podcast app.

B.C. Wehman:
Behind The Doc is produced by Evergreen Podcasts in association with Gravitas Ventures.

Heather Grayson:
Special thanks to executive producers, Nolan Gallagher, and Michael DeAloia.

B.C. Wehman:
Produced by Sarah Willgrube-

Heather Grayson:
... and audio engineer, Eric Koltnow.

B.C. Wehman:
And you'll find us everywhere and anywhere you listen to your favorite podcast (silence).

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