Building Relationships Before Providing Feedback

Sara: Welcome to, Can I Offer You Some Feedback? My name is Sara and this is the podcast for those who have a complicated relationship with feedback and are looking to hear from real people across levels and industries with their ideas, perspectives, and best practices on feedback. Before we dive in, I'd like to introduce our guest on the podcast today, Jackie. She's a customer success manager at an open source software company. Welcome to the conversation today.

Jackie: Thanks so much for having me.

Sara: So let's kick things off with the main question of the podcast. When I say the phrase, can I offer you some feedback? What's your gut reaction when you hear that?

Jackie: My gut reaction to that statement is I recoil. That is a statement that I don't really want to hear. It's typically used in the context of delivering negative feedback. I don't know if that phrase has been used that I've witnessed for positive feedback. So I think that probably rightfully so, everyone has a bit of a negative reaction when they hear those words.

Sara: Right.

Jackie: I don't know that you always have to. I think that certainly the topic that we'll discuss and that you've been covering in these episodes is worth making this part of a normal part of professional culture, and actually creating a space for feedback to be regularly delivered. But I think still that phrase is triggering probably for a lot of people.

Sara: Yeah. You're absolutely right. Most folks that I talk to do have that kind of response. It's interesting that feedback has been framed into either positive or negative, not constructive or supportive, or it's automatically assumed that it must be one or the other. But I'm curious when you think about feedback, do you prefer to be the giver or the receiver of feedback?

Jackie: I think in general, I prefer to be the giver of feedback. I think about it deeply. I think my background as a nurse and as an educator in nursing, we in clinical simulation instructing, we learn how to facilitate feedback. These are brand new people to a clinical setting so there's plenty of feedback to be giving.

But the way that it's structured is really more out of curiosity. You know, "Hey, I saw you do X. Can you tell me about your thought process while you were doing X?" Then you dig into a little bit more. Maybe the action was right, but the rationale was wrong. Maybe the action was wrong, but the rationale was right. They got one little thing that was mistaken.

So, I think that approaching delivering feedback with that curiosity and with that empathy of maybe that person is new to this particular skill or conversation or subject, and you really need to gain an understanding of where they are. I have experienced feedback as the receiver that maybe didn't seem to have that assuming good intent, that empathy, that curiosity, and it was just a flat feedback rather than something that is a conversation and that's inquisitive and curious.

Sara: I think you're touching on pieces and parts of this. When you think about meaningful feedback, you've already mentioned the empathy, you've already mentioned the curiosity, the assuming with best intent. Are there other components that you fold into that meaningful feedback?

Jackie: I think meaningful feedback is aware or seeks to be aware. I think that there might be a very specific, again, drawing on the background in nursing, I think if there is something that an expectation that is not being met, let's say that it's constructive feedback, it's some kind of corrective conversation that you're having, I think that to be meaningful, I think that person needs to one be seen. And so I'm sure that the starting with something that is acknowledging a strength of theirs or something that they did well, of course, priming it with that can be meaningful.

In terms of as the giver, you're saying, I see you, I see the work that you're doing, I see the effort that you're making. Now, here's this expectation that I want to talk to you about. Here's the definition of what we're looking for. Here's why it's important. Here's what I observed of your performance, or here's what I heard you say in this situation. And if that's not quite meeting that expectation or perceived to not be, then I think that meaningful feedback is going to have that curiosity, have the inquisitive nature to it and assume good intent, and also deliver clear mismatch of expectation to performance.

Sara: Yeah. I love that you're bringing up the expectation component. I think a lot of times when folks provide feedback that's either not meaningful or not supported, it doesn't have the framework behind it. That's like we have already reviewed the like how or we reviewed the approach or we have a framework or methodology. The expectation has not been set.

So, to the receiver, it can feel like, well, you just don't like it rather than it's not meeting the standard or it's not meeting the protocol or it's not meeting, again, the set expectation that we've talked about. It's not like I don't feel like it, it's something different than that. I like that you're connecting that.

I'm wondering based on your description again of this meaningful feedback, if you could provide either an example or a little totally anonymous, of course, of a time where you've either seen meaningful feedback delivered or you've experienced receiving meaningful feedback. Thoughts come to mind?

Jackie: Actually, my current manager is really skilled in this and it took me a little bit of time to, I was coming out of a situation where I was reporting to someone where the feedback relationship was not very strong and I had had a pretty negative experience with that and so the contrast was really striking with my current manager.

We have regular check-ins and he does create a structure for feedback. He's very clear about it. He'll give it in a written way and also talk it out. He's very encouraging of the work that I'm doing and does really... Again, I feel seen by him. I feel like he's given me enough of a mirror of, hey, I see what you're doing at the company. I see these strengths. I see the way that you're managing these customers and these relationships and all of these heavy demands.

And so that when there is something, it's like, okay, I know this person is aware of the strengths that I bring to the table and the work that I'm doing and the effort that I'm making. And then when it comes time for, "Hey, I think you're doing too much work," or you know, or something along those lines where there is some action to be taken on my part from what he's delivering. I am hearing that.

I am in a space where I'm not hearing it from a point of being fearful. I'm not hearing it from a point of being defensive. You know, there's sort of a space that we've entered where this is safe and I feel seen and you know, and also here's something constructive. Here's something that can be improved upon. Here's something that can help your quality of life alongside doing a good job at work, you know. And so that's been meaningful and it's been really striking again to see someone who is skilled in that. He's been a manager for a long time across various roles and you can tell that he's really honed that particular skill and it's really effective.

Sara: Yeah, and I think what you're describing in that way is when we talk about receiving feedback from folks we trust or that we believe or that have some credibility for us, whatever the credibility that they've established is that they've demonstrated as you touched on earlier that they see us, meaning like they get us, they get our work, they understand our contributions, right? It's not feedback out of context, right?

If you were to meet some person you've never met before at a conference and they're like, you suck at your job, you're like, dude, you don't know me. Like, okay. It's not feedback to receive, but if someone who works alongside you every day is like, "I don't know." That's a different, obviously you don't want to hear it in the same way, but it means something different because they know you, they know the work you put in, they know the time you're investing, they know your intent is there. And so that's part of that foundation building of that trust in the relationship that's required in order to have that meaningful conversation.

And I think as you're saying, it is something that takes a lot of time to do. It is investing in the relationship so that later you can pull from it and be able to give a little bit more critical conversation or give some other feedback, which might be harder to hear. It's hard to do that if you've got nothing to base it on if you've got no foundation of that regular conversation. So.

Jackie: Yeah.

Sara: I'm wondering, you know, I don't have the power of giving out wishes, but if I were to be giving out wishes, what would be one thing that you would hope that other people could do better regarding feedback? What would it be?

Jackie: I think in general, there does need to be the structure for feedback. And I currently work in a company where this is the first time, we don't have performance reviews. And not that that's the be all end all of feedback. In fact, I think that it's a very, very small part of some kind of reflection on your professional skills and persona and how effective you are at work.

But I do think that there needs to be space and sort of a normalcy created for giving and receiving feedback. And I think that the company I work for currently does that in some other ways. And you know, again, just not necessarily in this structure of an annual performance evaluation. And I think that there is a little bit the onus on everyone to seek feedback.

And the way that I've approached this, and this occurred to me really, you know, only recently in my career across several different roles. You know, I've kind of changed my career a couple different times at this point. And as soon as I got into this current role, which was very new to me, I came from healthcare, I came from data analysis, research, and now I'm working in a software company. And sort of there's so much to take forward from those other roles. But this is very new and if I didn't do well at it initially, I would kind of be like, yeah, this is a very different world that I'm working in.

And so what I did out the gate was identify someone who I perceived to be a little more senior to me, but in the same role. And I said, "Would you be my mentor? Can we set up recurring meetings? Here are the things that I would want to discuss." And also just kind of opened up this channel of feedback of how can I do this better? Of what you see in my interactions with our team, with customers, what do you see that are my blind spots or my weak points or any number of things.

And so I think that I would encourage everyone to do exactly that. To welcome feedback whether that's someone who's trusted or even someone who you just really respect in the world around you and say, just create that space of, I'm open to feedback and please let me know what I could do better, you know, if that's something specific or something more general.

So I think, again, the structure is crucial. It's when there isn't an expectation of feedback, when there isn't sort of an encouraging or any kind of guidance on how to do that effectively, I think that people are up to their own skills in relational self-awareness and like their ability to relate to other people. And of course, as we know that is highly contextual and varies a lot.

And I think that there are components to it where someone might say something with a certain tone and maybe the way I've grown up, that tone means you've done something wrong. What is wrong with you? But maybe it's not being delivered with that spirit at all. And so there's just like kind of a very open, there's kind of a lot of variation in how things can be heard and be said and how they can be interpreted. And so I think that that really loose structure is really a critical component.

Sara: Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you share that under the like, understanding and acknowledgement that sometimes we have to ask for that. We have a set of systems for ourselves to be able to explore that and knowing not everyone's good at it, right? I mean, you can't make someone be your mentor or coach.

But thinking about, you know, you've recognized this is an opportunity for you in this career and how you can kind of solicit some of that feedback to know, am I on the right's path? Am I on the right step? Is it working in the way that I want it to? Well, for our last question and our time together, Jackie, can I offer you some feedback?

Jackie: I'm recoiling. No, I'm just kidding. Absolutely.

Sara: I know listeners are about to find out. We've known each other for many years and have kind of circled back in our relationships in a number of different ways. And one of the things that you've even mentioned today a little bit in conversation and in the variety of topics that we've covered, I sense a great deal of fluidity from you.

And what I mean by that is it's very easy to pick up. It's very easy to continue. It's very easy to go from task to task, from topic to topic. And I've also noticed this in your career as well, right? When the door opens, water rushes through it. And when you've had the opportunity to either, because you talked about your nursing career, this career is different, but also similar, right? And there are some connections, there are some skills that are shared.

And so I think about this in the context of the frame with which you can provide to other folks, right? You have so many of these career steps that you've taken along the way and the lens in which the way you view your work. I know you picked nursing for a couple of your examples, but nursing is customer care. Nursing is customer success. Your open source software for the moments of customers, probably a different definition than what we classically think of in that role.

But I've always appreciated in our conversations as I said, that fluidity and being able to pick up to move from topic to topic and I think it takes a lot of not sure how much effort from your side, but it feels effortless to converse, to have dialogue, to move through difficult conversations with ease. And I really appreciate that you have that skill around creating the environment where things can feel fluid, at least for me.

And I know I've really appreciated that over the many years that we've known each other. And it just always feels kind of very natural, very comfortable. And I hope that others on your team can feel that whatever team you're working with. And I'm sure your clients and customers see that as well. But I know I wanted to say thank you for that.

Jackie: Thank you. That is very kind and that is heard. And I really appreciate it.

Sara: Well, Jackie, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. And thanks to you for joining us in another episode of, Can I Offer You Some Feedback? You can reach me at [email protected]. We would love to hear from you on your thoughts on feedback or any other perspectives you'd like to hear from next. As always, give us a quick rating on your platform of choice and share this podcast with a friend. And I'm hoping that tomorrow you take a chance and offer some feedback when it's needed most.