"A Picture Of Dorian Gray" by Oscar Wilde

Frank Lavallo:

Hello, and welcome to Novel Conversations, a podcast about the world's greatest stories. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, and for each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book. And together we summarize the story for you.

We introduce you to the characters, we tell you what happens to them, and then we read from the book along the way. So, if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place.

This episode's conversation is about the novel, The Picture of Dorian Gray, by Oscar Wilde. And I'm joined by our novel conversation's readers, Elizabeth Flood and Katie Smith. Elizabeth, Katie, hello. Welcome.

Elizabeth Flood:

Hi Frank.

Katie Smith:

Hi Frank. Thanks for having us.

Frank Lavallo:

Glad to have you both here today. Before we get started, I want to give a quick introduction to our novel, The Picture of Dorian Gray. The Picture of Dorian Gray is a philosophical novel by Irish writer, Oscar Wilde. A shorter novella length version was published in July of 1890, and the novel length version was published in April of 1891.

The story revolves around a portrait of Dorian Gray, painted by Basil Hallward, a friend of Dorian's and an artist infatuated with Dorian's beauty. Through Basil, Dorian meets Lord Henry Wotton and is soon enthralled by the aristocrat’s hedonistic worldview, a new hedonism, that beauty and sensual fulfillment are the only things worth pursuing in life.

Newly understanding that his beauty will fade, Dorian expresses the desire to sell his soul, to ensure that the picture, rather than he will age and fade. The wish is granted, and Dorian pursues a libertine life of varied amoral experiences while staying young and beautiful. All the while his portrait ages and visually records every one of Dorian's sins.

Wilde’s only novel, it was subject to much controversy and criticism in its time, but has come to be recognized as a classic of gothic literature.

So, with that introduction, let's talk about our novel. Elizabeth, we quickly meet two of the main characters. Tell me a little bit about Lord Henry Wotton.

Elizabeth Flood:

Lord Henry Watton is a nobleman and a close friend of Basil Hallward. He's very witty, but he has quite a few controversial opinions. It seems to me that he's the type of person that just throws out opinions just to get a rise out of people and who knows if he actually believes them or not.

Frank Lavallo:

And Katie, tell me a little bit about Basil Hallward.

Katie Smith:

Basil Hallward is an artist. He's a college friend of Lord Henry's.

Frank Lavallo:

So, we have a painter and we have his friend, I was going to call him his patron, but I'm not sure that Lord Henry is necessarily Basil's patron. But we have a painter and we have his friend Lord Henry. There is a third person in the room who's not in the room. Katie what am I talking about?

Katie Smith:

Well, there's a full-length (though unfinished), portrait of what is described as a beautiful young man.

Frank Lavallo:

And Hallward tells Lord Henry he's not going to exhibit this painting, although Lord Wotton thinks it's one of the best things Hallward has ever done.

Elizabeth Flood:

Basil reluctantly gives Lord Henry the man's name. It's Dorian Gray.

Frank Lavallo:

Why is he reluctant to give the name to Lord Henry?

Katie Smith:

Hallward says he delights in secrecy. But this, this felt a little bit more than that.

Frank Lavallo:

What did it feel like?

Katie Smith:

It almost feels like he's jealous or afraid that Lord Henry will come in and take Dorian from him or something. Or that he fears he will have too much influence, a damaging influence on the young man.

Elizabeth Flood:

Yeah, Lord Henry is certainly not a good influence, which is what Basil says. And to that Lord Henry says:

“All influence is immoral. Because to influence a person is to give him one's own soul. He does not think his natural thoughts or burn with his natural passions. His virtues are not real to him. His sins, if there are such things as sins are borrowed, he becomes an echo of someone else's music, an actor of a part that has not been written for him.”

And that seems to ring true throughout the novel.

Frank Lavallo:

That's Lord Henry's talking.

Elizabeth Flood:

That's Lord Henry's opinion.

Frank Lavallo:

To Basil saying, “I can't influence him.” Right? “To influence is amoral.”

Elizabeth Flood:

Right. Well, yeah. Basil says, “I'm scared you're going to have a bad influence on him.” And this is what Lord Henry's response is. Yes.

Frank Lavallo:

But when Basil's asked the real reason he doesn't want to exhibit the picture, Hallward tells Lord Henry a little bit about the first time he met Dorian Gray.

Katie Smith:

Yes. Hallward says, when he is talking to Lord Henry or Harry as he calls him, he describes the first time he saw Dorian:

“When our eyes first met, I felt that I was growing pale. A curious sensation of terror came over me. I knew that I had come face to face with someone whose mere personality was so fascinating that if I allowed it to do so, it would absorb my whole nature, my whole soul, my very art itself.

I did not want any external influence in my life. You know yourself, Harry, how independent I am by nature. I have always been my own master, had at least always been so, till I met Dorian Gray.”

Frank Lavallo:

And regardless of what Hallward tells us, he and Dorian do become fast friends.

Elizabeth Flood:

Dorian and Basil met every day. Dorian became Basil's muse and Basil often would paint him in various settings like as a Greek or a Roman, et cetera, always in costumes.

But now for the first time, he was going to paint him as he was in real life.

Katie Smith:

Dorian Gray, it seems, is not only his subject, but also his muse.

Frank Lavallo:

Basil says:

“He's much more to me than a model or a sitter. I won't tell you that I'm dissatisfied with what I've done of him or that his beauty is such that art cannot express it. There's nothing that art can't express. And I know that the work I have done since I met Dorian Gray is good work. It's the best work of my life.

But in some curious way, I wonder if you'll understand me, his personality has suggested to me an entirely new manner in art, an entirely new mode of style. I now see things differently. I think of them differently. I paint them differently because of Dorian Gray.”

But Elizabeth, after all of these various excuses, he wants to keep secrecy. And he was afraid of Lord Henry's influence on Dorian Gray. He really does give Lord Henry the real reason.

Elizabeth Flood:

Yes. He said it's too personal. And he realizes there's too much of himself in this painting. It shows his idolatry. And in fact, I think he makes the point that in some cases his paintings show more of himself than they do of the subject.

Frank Lavallo:

But he also then describes his friendship with Dorian Gray. Again, it's even beyond being a subject or a muse.

Katie Smith:

Basil cries:

“An artist should create beautiful things, but should put nothing of his own life into them. We live in an age when men treat art as if it were meant to be a form of an autobiography. We have lost the abstract sense of beauty. Someday I will show the world what it is. And for that reason, the world shall never see my portrait of Dorian Gray.”

Frank Lavallo:

But Elizabeth, after Lord Henry hears about Dorian Gray and sees the picture of Dorian Gray, obviously he clearly wants to meet Dorian Gray. But then as the first chapter ends-

Elizabeth Flood:

Dorian shows up to the studio.

Frank Lavallo:

So, they do meet.

Elizabeth Flood:

Well, not before Hallward warns Lord Henry.

Frank Lavallo:

Warns him?

Elizabeth Flood:

Basil looks at Lord Henry and says, “Dorian Gray is my dearest friend. He has a simple and beautiful nature. Your aunt was quite right in what she said of him. Don't spoil him. Don't try to influence him. Your influence would be bad.”

Katie Smith:

That's so sad.

Frank Lavallo:

That's quite a warning from Basil.

Elizabeth Flood:

Yes. Because Dorian is only 20-years-old and I think Lord Henry is maybe 30 or so.

Katie Smith:

And influential.

Elizabeth Flood:

Well, Lord Henry has a lot of opinions and he is very liberal in his sharing of them.

Katie Smith:

But they do meet. And Lord Henry recalls he had heard of Dorian from his aunt, Lady Agatha.

Elizabeth Flood:

They would play piano duets together.

Frank Lavallo:

But Katie, Lord Henry and Dorian do go outside of the studio and they do sit down and have a little talk.

Katie Smith:

They do. Dorian takes a break from posing to move his muscles a little bit, and he wanders outside to the garden. And Lord Henry follows him. And as they're chatting, Lord Henry begins to talk about his own philosophies.

Frank Lavallo:

Which is what? What is this new hedonism that Lord Henry espouses?

Katie Smith:

Well, in his own words, he says:

“I believe that if one man were to live out his life fully and completely, were to give form to every feeling, expression to every thought, reality to every dream, I believe that the world would gain such a fresh impulse of joy. And we would forget all the maladies of medievalism and return to the Hellenic ideal, to something finer, richer than the Hellenic ideal, it may be.”

It's all about just seeking his own pleasures, right?

Frank Lavallo:

Right.

Katie Smith:

“The only way to get rid of temptation is to yield to it.”

Frank Lavallo:

Part of his philosophy is also about the transient nature of beauty and youth. And while you have beauty, while you have youth, you should use it. You should enjoy it. You should make something of it.

Elizabeth Flood:

Yes. In fact, he says, youth is the only thing worth having. And at first, Dorian says, “I don't feel that, Lord Henry.” Then Lord Henry goes into a long speech explaining how important beauty and youth are. And Dorian takes all of it in, open-eyed and wondering.

Katie Smith:

And as they're talking, there's one line that sticks with Dorian Gray. Lord Henry says to him, “Nothing can cure the soul, but the senses. Just as nothing can cure the senses but the soul.”

Frank Lavallo:

And Dorian Gray is intrigued. He's intrigued by Lord Henry's words. He's intrigued by Lord Henry himself. And now this is the moment, the moment that the finished portrait is finally revealed to Lord Henry and Dorian, it's our title. It's the Picture of Dorian Gray.

Elizabeth Flood:

Both Lord Henry and Basil agree it is the best work Hallward has ever done.

Katie Smith:

But Dorian has a different reaction.

Frank Lavallo:

Well, tell me.

Katie Smith:

He can't help but reflect on Lord Henry's previous statement about fleeting beauty.

Frank Lavallo:

And this is where Dorian makes his fatal statement. Here is our story:

Elizabeth Flood:

“This picture will remain always young. It will never be older than this particular day of June. If it were only the other way, if it were I, who is to be always young and the picture that was to grow old. For that I would give everything. Yes, there is nothing in the whole world I would not give. I would give my soul for that.”

Frank Lavallo:

And then Elizabeth, after Dorian's outburst, Lord Henry reaffirms his desire to own the portrait. However, Basil insists the portrait belongs to Dorian and I will never exhibit it.

Katie Smith:

And then to the anguish and dread of Hallward, Dorian leaves with Lord Henry.

Frank Lavallo:

Okay, Katie, Elizabeth, with that introduction to our main characters, let's take a break here. And when we come back, we'll continue with our story of The Picture of Dorian Gray. We'll be right back.

[Music Playing]

Welcome back. Alright, Katie, Elizabeth, when we left, we had introduced our four main characters, Basil Hallward, the painter and Dorian Gray.

Elizabeth Flood:

Frank, you said four characters. I think we've only mentioned three.

Katie Smith:

He thinks he's being funny. You count the picture as a character. Don't you?

Frank Lavallo:

Think of it as a literary dad joke, I guess, I don't know. But anyway, as our novel continues, Lord Henry visits his uncle, Lord Fermor.

Elizabeth Flood:

Lord Henry wants to learn more about Dorian.

Katie Smith:

He finds out that Dorian's mother, Lady Margaret Devereux, had runoff and married essentially a commoner.

Elizabeth Flood:

A commoner who was killed months later in a duel, allegedly arranged by Lady Margaret's father.

Frank Lavallo:

So, no parents, presumably he's got a title.

Katie Smith:

And probably lots of money.

Frank Lavallo:

And quickly a month passes and we find Dorian lounging at Lord Henry's manor. Lord Henry isn't home. And we meet another character.

Elizabeth Flood:

The Lord's wife, Victoria Wotton.

Katie Smith:

And this is the only point in the book where she appears and she greets Dorian.

Frank Lavallo:

And then Dorian tells Lord Henry about an adventure he took, testing his advice to seek out the new and the different.

Elizabeth Flood:

He took the unknown path and found an obscure theater.

Katie Smith:

And apparently meets the love of his life, to date, Sybil Vane, the 17-year-old actress who's playing Juliet.

Frank Lavallo:

So, Dorian's in love.

Elizabeth Flood:

He is, and he quickly gets engaged.

Frank Lavallo:

And we also meet her mother and her brother James.

Katie Smith:

James Vane, is Sybil's brother. He's a sailor who's bound for Australia. James cares deeply for his sister and he worries about her new relationship with prince charming or whoever this man is. They don't know his name.

Frank Lavallo:

Right. Dorian is never named by Sybil. She just keeps calling him, “Prince Charming, Prince Charming.”

Katie Smith:

And then as a result, James is hesitant to leave his sister.

Frank Lavallo:

And as he leaves his sister, he does issue a threat.

Katie Smith:

“If he hurts you, I'll kill him.”

Frank Lavallo:

And what about Mrs. Vane?

Elizabeth Flood:

Mrs. Vane is a faded actress. She and Sybil are in debt to a theater company because the owner, Mr. Isaacs helped her to pay her debt.

She also thinks that it is a bad idea for Sybil to marry Dorian, until she realizes he might have some money. And then she says, “As long as he's got money, it's fine with me.”

Katie Smith:

And that ulterior motive kind of clouds her judgment and leaves Sybil vulnerable.

Frank Lavallo:

And it does quickly go bad, doesn't it? She has a bad performance?

Elizabeth Flood:

Overcome by her emotions for Dorian, Sybil decides that she can no longer act, wondering how she can pretend to love on the stage, now that she has experienced the real thing.

Katie Smith:

And Dorian who loves Sybil because of her ability to act, breaks his engagement with her and leaves her stunned.

Frank Lavallo:

And Katie, Elizabeth, while all this was going on, we forgot to mention that Basil Hallward has finally sent Dorian the completed portrait.

Elizabeth Flood:

When Dorian returns home from breaking the engagement, he notices that his face in Basil's portrait of him has changed. It now sneers, it has a cruelty in the mouth.

Katie Smith:

And as he's looking at it, he kind of remembers his curse, that curse he had said that it would age and he would stay young and beautiful, that his own beauty might be un-tarnished. And the face on the canvas bear the burden of his passions and his sins. And that the painted image might be seared with the lines of suffering and thought, and that he might keep all the delicate bloom and loveliness of his then just conscious boyhood.

Frank Lavallo:

And then after breaking up with Sybil and realizing his picture was changing, he goes to sleep. But when he awakes late in the day, he checks the picture again. And clearly it had changed. He had not imagined that; his face was altered.

Elizabeth Flood:

He gazed in horror, realizing that his wish had come true.

Katie Smith:

And with that fear and that guilt, he resolves to make amends with Sybil the next day.

Elizabeth Flood:

That afternoon, however, Lord Henry comes to visit and brings the news that Sybil has died most likely of suicide.

Katie Smith:

Yes, as soon as he had left (meaning Lord Henry), Dorian rushed to the screen and drew it back. No, there was no further change in the picture. It had received the news of Sybil Vane’s death before he had known it himself. It was conscious of the events of life as they occurred.

Elizabeth Flood:

Lord Henry convinces Dorian that Sybil's death is a beautiful tragedy, similar to a Shakespearean tragedy, and that she died for love of him. And the whole thing is a work of art.

Frank Lavallo:

And Dorian seems to buy that at the moment.

Elizabeth Flood:

Yes. He even agrees to go to the opera with Lord Henry shortly afterwards.

Frank Lavallo:

That's right. As chapter eight ends, an hour after this whole experience, he's at the opera with Lord Henry.

Katie Smith:

Over the next few weeks, Lord Henry's influence over Dorian grows stronger. Dorian becomes a disciple of this new hedonism and proposes to live a life dedicated to the pursuit of pleasure.

Elizabeth Flood:

And he quickly puts Sybil's death behind him.

Frank Lavallo:

Meanwhile, though, Dorian has hidden his portrait in a remote upper room of his house, where no one other than he can watch its transformation.

Elizabeth Flood:

Interestingly, he very quickly becomes paranoid of his servant Victor, for no real reason, terrified that he's spying on him, and that he might discover the painting.

Frank Lavallo:

I think we can understand why Dorian wouldn't want any of his servants to see this picture changing hideously.

Elizabeth Flood:

Oh yes, absolutely. So, it was sort of a paranoia that came on him.

Katie Smith:

And then Lord Henry gives Dorian a book that describes the wicked exploits of a 19th century French.

Elizabeth Flood:

And it becomes Dorian's Bible as he sinks ever deeper into a life of sin and corruption. He buys multiple copies of this book. He lives a life devoted to garnering new experiences and sensations with no regard for conventional standards of morality or the consequences of his actions.

Frank Lavallo:

And as Dorian is living this new lifestyle, this new hedonism, time passes.

Katie Smith:

Actually 18 years passed.

Frank Lavallo:

18 years.

Katie Smith:

And in that time, Dorian's reputation suffers in the circles of his polite London society because rumors spread regarding his scandalous exploits.

Elizabeth Flood:

He loses a lot of the friends that he makes, but some of his peers nevertheless continue to accept him because he remains young and beautiful and innocent looking.

Frank Lavallo:

And since he's young and beautiful and innocent looking, he can always get new friends, younger friends, prettier friends.

Katie Smith:

And then finally, after all this time, Basil Hallward comes to see Dorian.

Elizabeth Flood:

And he questions Dorian about his reputation. He has a hard time believing the rumors himself, but he's heard so many bad things that he needs answers. He seems to destroy the reputations of everyone that he meets as he goes through life.

Katie Smith:

And so, as they're talking, Basil is worried about Dorian. At one point, Dorian counters with, “Do you want to see my soul?”

Elizabeth Flood:

Because his face looks so perfect, he's like, “Well, it can't be true because you'd be able to see somebody's sin on their face.”

Frank Lavallo:

Katie, Elizabeth, I think you guys are right. Basil is truly concerned about Dorian. He can tell that Dorian has not changed. He's heard the scandals, he's heard the rumors, and that's why he's come to see Dorian. He wants to look into Dorian's soul and try to understand what's happened to him.

Katie Smith:

And Dorian counters with, “My soul, do you really want to see my soul?”

Elizabeth Flood:

“Yes,” answered Hallward gravely. And with deep-toned, sorrow in his voice, “To see your soul. But only God can do that.” A bitter laugh of mockery broke from the lips of the young man, “You shall see it yourself tonight,” he cried, seizing a lamp from the table, “Come, it is your own handiwork. Why shouldn't you look at it?”

Frank Lavallo:

But wait, Katie, Elizabeth, let's take a break here and when we come back, we'll all get to see Dorian’s soul. We'll be right back.

[Music Playing]

Hello. We're back. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, and you're listening to Novel Conversations. Alright, Katie, Elizabeth, when we left, we and Basil Hallward were going to see Dorian's soul.

Elizabeth Flood:

Dorian took Basil upstairs to the room where he had hidden his portrait. The room was dirty, dusty.

Frank Lavallo:

There were even rats running around.

Elizabeth Flood:

Yes, there's a mouse. It smelled like mildew. Clearly no one was hanging out in this room, except for maybe Dorian.

Frank Lavallo:

And then Katie, Basil does see this transformed portrait.

Katie Smith:

He does. He breaks out in horror. He is shocked and astonished looking at the canvas with the picture of Dorian's own face, that he can recognize his own brush strokes, but it's not the painting he painted. The face of Dorian has completely changed, and his beauty is spoiled.

Elizabeth Flood:

But Basil still recognizes his own brush strokes. It's clearly his art.

Frank Lavallo:

Right. As our book tells us:

“There was still some gold in the thinning hair and some scarlet on the sensual mouth. The sodden eyes had kept something of the loveliness of their blue, the noble curves had not yet completely passed away from the chiseled nostrils and from the plastic throat. Yes, it was Dorian himself, but who had done it?”

As you said, Elizabeth, he seemed to recognize his own brushwork and the frame was his own. “But the idea was monstrous. And Basil felt afraid. He seized the lighted candle and held it to the picture. And the left-hand corner was his own name, traced in long letters of bright vermilion.”

Katie Smith:

“What does this mean? Cried Hallward at last, his own voice sounding shrill and curious in the ears.” And then Dorian explains the situation to him. He says:

“Years ago, when I was a boy, said, Dorian Gray crushing the flower in his hand, you met me, flattered me, and taught me to be vain by my good looks.

One day you introduced me to a friend of yours, who explained to me the wonder of youth. And you finished the portrait of me that revealed to me the wonder of beauty. In a mad moment that even now, I don't know whether I regret or not, I made a wish, perhaps you would call it a prayer.”

Frank Lavallo:

And Basil remembers that moment. But he's horrified at what he sees, and he begs Dorian to repent.

Elizabeth Flood:

Dorian says, it's too late for repentance. Basil insists it is never too late. And begs Dorian to pray with him. But Dorian refuses.

Katie Smith:

In his anger, in a fit of rage, he sees a knife and he abruptly grabs it and quickly stabs Basil Hallward.

Frank Lavallo:

Just like that?

Katie Smith:

Just like that.

Frank Lavallo:

Well, now what?

Elizabeth Flood:

Well, he's used to giving into all his impulses and whims, isn't he?

Katie Smith:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Frank Lavallo:

Yeah. But it's one thing to be scandalous in the way you live your life. It's another thing, I think to cross that line and now murder someone.

Katie Smith:

It was easy for him, he says, right?

Frank Lavallo:

I wonder how much influence the painting is having on Dorian Gray at this moment. Is Dorian Gray completely in control of his emotions and completely in control of his actions? I don't know.

Katie Smith:

Well, the next day, Dorian wakes up from a restful sleep. Once the events of the previous night have sunk in, he feels the return of that hatred for Basil. He decides not to brood on these things for fear of making himself ill or mad.

But after breakfast, he sends for Alan Campbell, a young scientist and a former friend from whom he has grown distant.

Elizabeth Flood:

Campbell comes reluctantly having been summoned on a matter of life and death. Dorian asks Campbell to use his knowledge of chemistry to destroy the body. Campbell says, “It's going to be a no for me, dawg.”

Katie Smith:

Until Dorian blackmails him. He writes something on a piece of paper and slides it across to Campbell and shows him something that we don't know what it says. He reveals some secret that would bring enough disgrace to Campbell to force him to help dispose of the body, which he does.

Elizabeth Flood:

Now, this is the part that I don't understand, because how can he blackmail Campbell, if Campbell knows he murdered somebody? Wouldn't that cancel it out?

Katie Smith:

Well, his name will still be dragged through the mud.

Frank Lavallo:

Right. It'll still ruin Campbell. And I was going to ask, do we want to guess at what this threat was or what this blackmail was?

Elizabeth Flood:

Did they have a relationship together?

Frank Lavallo:

They did.

Katie Smith:

Probably, yeah.

Frank Lavallo:

They did.

Elizabeth Flood:

Dorian refuses to let Campbell leave. So, he sends one of his servants out to get all of the chemicals and supplies that he needs. And Campbell works until evening, then leaves. When Dorian returns to the room, the body is gone and the odor of nitric acid fills the room.

Frank Lavallo:

And eventually Dorian goes upstairs to cover the portrait and notices that one of the hands on the painting is dripping with red. And the quote is, “As though the canvas had sweated blood.” And the nightmare continues for Dorian Gray.

Elizabeth Flood:

The night after the murder, Dorian makes his way to an opium den, just to try and drown out his feelings.

Frank Lavallo:

And the last 24 hours.

Elizabeth Flood:

Yes. While he's at the opium den, somebody calls him Prince Charming, which was his old nickname.

Frank Lavallo:

From Sybil Vane, right?

Elizabeth Flood:

Yes. Sybil's nickname for him. And Sybil's brother James, happens to be at the den. He hears the nickname and runs after Dorian to avenge Sybil's death.

Frank Lavallo:

Well, does Vane kill him?

Katie Smith:

No. Dorian convinces him that he's not the man.

Frank Lavallo:

How does he do that?

Elizabeth Flood:

James mentions that this happened 18 years ago, and Dorian says, “Look at me. Look at how young I am. It couldn't possibly be me.”

Frank Lavallo:

“I'm too young to have known your sister.”

Elizabeth Flood:

“I'm too young.” And James realizes that the man he's looking for would be almost 40 at this point. So, he believes it couldn't be Dorian.

Katie Smith:

And then when Vane realizes this and steps back, Dorian escapes to his country estate.

Elizabeth Flood:

But then a woman comes up to James and says, “Why didn't you kill him?” And she tells them that this is the man he was looking for. He was the one who ruined her 18 years ago, and he hasn't aged a day since then.

Frank Lavallo:

But now it's too late. Dorian has already escaped to his country estate.

Elizabeth Flood:

Indeed. But then a couple of days later, while entertaining guests, he notices James Vane peering in through a window, and he actually passes out from fear. Apparently, this woman had given him Dorian's name and he had tracked him down that way.

Frank Lavallo:

In what I think is one of the least believable moments, a hunting party is out there and accidentally shoots and kills James Vane. Did either of you think that was a little, I don't know, coincidental or a little bit unbelievable?

Elizabeth Flood:

I didn't really think so because I thought James is following Dorian around, so it's not too surprising that somebody would kill him as he's trying to come after Dorian.

Katie Smith:

When we heard that someone had died, I thought it was going to be somebody that Dorian cared about.

Frank Lavallo:

Maybe Lord Henry.

Katie Smith:

Yeah. Because of the fear he had when the gun was shot. And he was saying, “No, don't shoot the rabbits.”

Elizabeth Flood:

Dorian's friend who killed the man is really just annoyed and irritated by this and says that his day of hunting has been spoiled. And blames the victim.

Frank Lavallo:

He thinks James was a spotter out there during the hunt, and he can't understand why a spotter would get between the prey and the bullet, I guess.

Katie Smith:

Right.

Elizabeth Flood:

Right. Dorian is extremely relieved. He feels safe again, and he finally resolves to amend his life. Although he cannot muster the courage to confess his crimes, there has been a young woman whom he's been seeing for a while, who thinks that he's the same age as her and he's lied to her. Told her that he is a poor country boy as well.

He had originally planned to go off and have relations with her and not marry her as he had with many other women.

Frank Lavallo:

And men.

Elizabeth Flood:

But instead, he decides to break up with her, leave her untarnished, leave her innocent, and that's his good deed that he does.

Frank Lavallo:

And he quickly thinks that this might have some impact on the portrait itself. So, he rushes up to the room to see if the portrait has changed at all. And really, the painting now reveals that his supposed desire to repent is really just hypocrisy. The painting doesn't react to this false attempt.

Elizabeth Flood:

Yes. And he realizes that he did this good deed out of vanity.

Katie Smith:

And so, then in a fury, Dorian picks up that same knife he used to stab Basil Hallward, and he attempts to destroy the painting. There is a huge crash and I think a scream. And the servants eventually come in and they enter to find-

Elizabeth Flood:

The portrait unharmed, showing Dorian Gray as a beautiful young man just as it was originally painted, but on the floor lies the body of their master, an older man horribly wrinkled and disfigured with a knife plunged into his heart.

Frank Lavallo:

And so, it's with the death of Dorian Gray and the restoration of the picture of Dorian Gray that our novel ends. Katie, did you find this a good or suitable ending for the novel?

Katie Smith:

I would say a suitable ending, but not necessarily a good ending. I like redemption at the end of a story, and I feel as though Dorian Gray doesn't really get that, the redemption. But maybe a fitting end in that after all this, the portrait has destroyed him so much that it kills him.

Frank Lavallo:

And you truly, in order to be redeemed, you have to repent. And we never really got that from Dorian Gray.

Katie Smith:

No, no. Just some cheap attempts.

Frank Lavallo:

That's a good phrase. Cheap attempts. Elizabeth, what about for you? Was this a good ending or a suitable ending?

Elizabeth Flood:

I definitely think it was a suitable ending because throughout the novel, Dorian is given multiple chances to repent, to make amends. And even his friend tells him that if he will only pray, maybe this painting will lose its power.

But he always says, “Oh, it's no use, it's too late,” and so on.

And so, Dorian commits the sin of despair, what some people call the unforgivable sin, where he believes that he can't be forgiven. Even after he does this one good deed and it goes unrewarded, he just gives up hope after that and doesn't continue to try and be good.

Frank Lavallo:

Katie, Elizabeth, really good insights here. Let's take one more break and then head into our last segment where I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or perhaps a character or a quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about just yet. Right now, you're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo. We'll be right back.

[Music Playing]

And welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, and today I'm having a conversation about The Picture of Dorian Gray, by Oscar Wilde. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversation readers, Elizabeth Flood and Katie Smith.

Alright, Elizabeth, Katie, before our break, we ended our story. And now I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or a quote that we haven't had a chance to get to yet. Elizabeth, do you have something for us?

Elizabeth Flood:

I do. I think this book is really brilliant. I very much enjoyed it. And one thing that I wanted to mention was that Dorian is so narcissistic, so absorbed in himself that he sees his own feelings in other people and projects himself onto other people.

So, when his former love Sybil kills herself, he calls her shallow and selfish for killing herself, when in fact, he was the one who was shallow because he stopped loving her once she stopped being good at acting. That was his only reason for loving her, was her talent at acting. And of course, he was being selfish as well.

Frank Lavallo:

Katie, how about you? Did you have anything you wanted to share?

Katie Smith:

Yes, I do. Well, I absolutely detest every phrase that Lord Henry even thinks about saying.

Frank Lavallo:

In fact, didn't you write in one of your margins, Lord Henry, shut up, or Lord Henry, stop talking? Something like that?

Katie Smith:

At least once, at least once. But as a foil to that, the character of Basil Hallward is so great in my eyes. In fact, one point I wanted to call attention to, is when he hears about the death of Sybil, he comes running to Dorian Gray's house and says, “I came here last night, you weren't here. I expected you to be suffering in your pity and sadness of your love dying.

But they said you were at the opera. I didn't believe them. I thought they must be lying to me. I just came here to comfort you because you must be so heartbroken.”

And it's just such a thing to do out of, out of love for someone and to be a good friend to this person, Dorian, who has somewhat dropped him as a friend because of his new affection with Lord Henry.

Frank Lavallo:

Okay, I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint you, because I've got a line from Lord Henry that I'd like to read.

Katie Smith:

Great.

Frank Lavallo:

It's when Basil Hallward and Lord Henry are talking about friendship and how laughter is sometimes the best way to begin a friendship. And Basil says, “Henry, you don't understand what friendship is or what enmity is for that matter, you like everyone. And that is to say you're indifferent to everyone.”

And Lord Henry replies, “Oh, that's horribly unjust of you. I make a great difference between people. I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters and my enemies for their good intellects.

A man cannot be too careful in his choice of enemies. I've not got one who is a fool. They are all men of some intellectual power. And consequently, they all appreciate me. Is that very vain of me? I guess, I think it is rather vain.”

Henry at least gets himself. He may be trying to fool others, but I don't think Lord Henry is fooling himself. He knows what he is, he knows who he is. He understands the destructive nature of relationships particularly with him.

Elizabeth Flood:

And I think Basil is possibly a little bit naive about Henry, because there are a few times where he says, “Oh, Henry, I don't think you're so bad as you say that you are. I don't think you really believe these things.” But in fact, Henry is as bad as he says he is.

Frank Lavallo:

And I think that goes back to what Katie was saying about the good nature of Basil Hallward. You may not always agree with everything he does or says-

Katie Smith:

But he still thanks him to be a good person and encourages that part of him to come out.

Frank Lavallo:

I think you're absolutely right. And guys, with that, let's end our discussion today about Picture of Dorian Gray, by Oscar Wilde. I want to thank both of you for coming in and having this conversation with me today.

[Music Playing]

Elizabeth Flood:

Thanks so much, Frank.

Katie Smith:

Thanks for having us.

Frank Lavallo:

I'm Frank Lavallo and you've been listening to Novel Conversations.

Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcast. You can find us on Instagram or Twitter at Novel Conversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and anything else we've got in the works.

I want give special thanks to our readers today, Elizabeth Flood and Katie Smith. Our sound designer and producer is Noah Foutz and Gray Sienna Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Michael DeAloia and David Allen Moss.

I'm Frank Lavallo. And thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation, all your own.

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