00:09 Frank: Hello, and welcome to Novel Conversations, a podcast about the world's greatest stories. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo. And for each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book. And together, we summarize the story for you. We introduce you to the characters, we tell you what happens to them, and we read from the book along the way. So if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place. This episode's conversation is about the novel True Grit by Charles Portis. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Elizabeth Flood and Gregory James. Elizabeth, Gregory, welcome. Hey, Frank, how are you?
00:41 Elizabeth: Thank you, Frank.

00:43 Frank: I'm glad to have you both here for this conversation. Before we get started, let me give a quick introduction to this episode's novel. True Grit is a novel by Charles Portis that was first published as a 1968 serial within the Saturday Evening Post magazine. The novel is narrated by Mattie Ross, a church-going elderly spencer distinguished by intelligence, independence, and strength of mind. She recounts the story of her adventures 50 years earlier, in 1878, when she undertook a quest to avenge her father's murder by a drifter named Tom Chaney. She was joined on her quest by Marshal Reuben J. Rooster Cogburn and a Texas ranger named Le Buff, but he pronounces it Le Beef. The novel was adapted for the screenplay of the 1969 film True Grit, starring John Wayne in his Academy Award-winning role as Rooster Cogburn. Six years later, in 1975, Wayne reprised his Academy Award-winning role as the tough, hard-drinking, one-eyed lawman in the sequel film, Rooster Cogburn. So, Elizabeth, our novel starts with Maddie Ross thinking back on her girlhood adventure.

01:45 Elizabeth: Maddie remarks on a difference between attitudes now, when she tells her story, and back then, when our story happened. Now, it seems surprising that a 14-year-old girl could leave home and go off in the wintertime to avenge her father's blood. But back then, it did not seem so strange. She then tells the story of her father's murder.

02:05 Gregory: Maddy's father, Frank Ross, hired a drifter named Tom Chaney to help on their farm near Dardanelle, Arkansas. One day in winter, Ross and Chaney traveled 70 miles to Fort Smith, Arkansas, where Ross bought some Mustang ponies from a livestock trader named Colonel Stonehill.

02:22 Elizabeth: The night the sale was made, Cheney got drunk and lost money at cards. He was threatening to kill someone when Ross intervened to calm him. Cheney shot the unarmed Ross, killing him, and then he robbed Ross of his cash, two California gold pieces, and his horse, Judy. Cheney fled for the Oklahoma Territory, and no one in Fort Smith gave chase.

02:45 Frank: As you know, we'll learn in chapter two that Maddie is 64 years old as she's recounting her adventure, though readers already have clues to Maddie's age. She interjects a stray remark typical of an older person's interest, all due respect to older persons. As I recollect, she says shelled corn was something under 15 cents a bushel back then.

03:04 Gregory: And she recalls Chaney used a piece of cotton plow line as a rifle sling instead of a nice leather strap. In her eyes, that demonstrates Chaney's laziness and even his low moral character. There is trash for you, she says. She assesses her mother's skills matter-of-factly, saying, However, this does not reflect badly on her mother. Figures and letters are not everything.

03:30 Elizabeth: After learning of her father's death, Maddie takes the train from her home in Yale County, Arkansas, to Fort Smith, Arkansas, to see about her father's remains. She is accompanied by a, quote, colored man named Yarnell Poindexter, end quote, a neighbor whom her father had hired to feed the livestock while he was away.

03:49 Gregory: At first, Maddy and Yarnell cannot find seats on the train because there is to be a triple hanging in Fort Smith, and the train is crowded with eager spectators. They sit on Maddy's trunk in the aisle of a, quote, colored coach. Maddy is not interested in the hanging, but Yarnell wants to see it.

04:05 Elizabeth: Maddie decides they will both go, but keep it a secret from her mother. The condemned are two white men and a Native American. The first condemned man says a few casual words, concluding, I see men out there in that crowd that is worse than me. The Native American says a Christian prayer, much to the approval of Maddie.

04:23 Gregory: The third condemned man gives a moralizing speech, enjoining parents to train up your children in the way they should go. Maddie is moved to tears. When the hangman springs the trapdoors, the Native American's neck does not break and he begins to spasm. Maddie and Yarnell and many of the crowd turn away in revulsion and leave in some haste as the Native American slowly strangles.

04:45 Frank: This hanging scene is both festive and gruesome. There's a crowd of, quote, a thousand or more people and 50 or 60 dogs, unquote. Boys walk through the crowd selling peanuts and fudge. Executions were public in the United States until the 1930s. Maddie perhaps reflects the changing attitudes when she says, quote, a year or two later, the execution spot was surrounded by a wall and you had to have a pass from the marshal's office to get in.

05:10 Elizabeth: Maddy's reactions to the final words of the three condemned men tell readers a lot about her. She is not moved by the first man, whose words have a self-justifying ring. I see men out there in that crowd that is worse than me.

05:24 Gregory: The second man to speak, the Native American, wins Maddy's approval with his Christian prayer. In his moralizing speech, the third man condemns himself for what I have come to because of drink. This meets with Maddy's highest approval. Maddy is a Christian with stern moral judgments about people's character and the evil of drink.

05:41 Elizabeth: Maddy and Yarnell go to The Undertaker, an Irishman. Maddy arranges to have her father's body shipped to Dardanelle, Arkansas. Maddy tells Yarnell to stay with the coffin while she goes to the sheriff's office.

05:53 Gregory: The sheriff recounts what he knows about Cheney, which is not much. He calls him Chambers. Cheney has a black mark on his cheek and is now in the territory, in the company of Lucky Ned Pepper, who robbed a mail coach recently. Matty is angry that the sheriff is not out there looking for Cheney. The sheriff says he has no jurisdiction in the territory, only federal marshals can pursue him now.

06:16 Elizabeth: Maddy asks for the best marshal. Out of approximately 200, the sheriff names three men. One is the best tracker. Another is the meanest and a double tough. A third is as straight as a string and will not plant evidence or abuse a prisoner. Maddy asks about the meanest one. Reuben J. Rooster Cogburn. The sheriff says Rooster will testify the next day in court.

06:39 Frank: Maddy sends Yarnell home on the train with her father's coffin. Maddy's attitudes are shaped by the post-reconstruction era in the South. Maddy accepts Yarnell's deference, she decides whether they will see the hanging, and she sends Yarnell home when it suits her. But to be fair, Maddy expects this deference from all the men she meets, white or black.

06:58 Gregory: She goes to the monarch boarding house to rent a room from Mrs. Floyd. There, she has to share a room with an old woman named Grandma Turner and spends an uncomfortable night.

07:08 Elizabeth: I would be so mad if I paid and I had to spend the room with some stranger.

07:13 Gregory: But she did get a discount, right? She didn't have to pay for a full room.

07:17 Elizabeth: The next day, Maddie negotiates a deal with Colonel Stonehill, the livestock trader. Maddie drives a hard bargain, selling Stonehill livestock he does not want at the price she sets. She ends up giving him more animals than she originally offered, but she may have overvalued Judy at the outset as a bargaining strategy. However, Maddie does not bargain just for the pleasure of it. In chapter two, when Yarnell points out the mortician is charging too much, Maddie declines to haggle.

07:47 Gregory: She demands Stonehill pay her $300 for her father's horse, Judy, which Chaney stole while it was in Stonehill's care. Stonehill balks and makes counteroffers. After Maddie threatens to bring in lawyer Daggett, she walks away with a promise of $325 for Judy and a gray horse. As soon as lawyer Daggett sends a letter promising not to sue Stonehill, Maddie can collect the money.

08:09 Frank: And Gregory, Maddie wields her lawyer, the lawyer Daggett, like a weapon, right? Brandishing him whenever she feels disrespected or threatened.

08:17 Elizabeth: Maddie now needs a road stake, a sum of money to set her up for her journey. She did not arrive in Fort Smith already knowing she herself would chase Chaney. However, when the sheriff reveals in Chapter 2 that no one is chasing Chaney, Maddie realizes that she has to intervene.

08:35 Gregory: Maddie attends the murder trial of Otis Wharton, and Rooster Cogburn testifies. Maddie initially mistakes another man for Rooster, not knowing what Rooster looks like. She first picks out a younger and slighter man with a badge on his shirt, and is surprised when Rooster turns out to be an old one-eyed Jasper that was built along the lines of Grover Cleveland. Cleveland was fat. Cleveland was fat. Maddie will continue to be surprised by Rooster. She might well know evil when she sees it, but Rooster will turn out to have both more good and outlaw in him than she knew.

09:08 Elizabeth: The prosecuting attorney, Barlow, questions Cogburn about the shooting deaths of Aaron Wharton and Cece Wharton. Barlow argues that Cogburn shot them lawfully in the course of marshal business, but the defense attorney, Gowdy, cross-examines Rooster, casting doubt on Barlow's case. Gowdy points out Rooster has killed 23 men in his four years of service as a marshal. After the testimony, Maddy approaches Rooster.

09:37 Frank: All right, readers, with that start, let's take a break here. And when we come back, we and Maddie Ross will meet Marshall Rubin J. Rooster Cogburn. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back. Welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo. And today I'm having a conversation about the novel True Grit by Charles Portis. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Elizabeth Flood and Gregory James. So readers, when we left, Maddie Ross was about to meet Marshall Rooster Cogburn. Gregory, how does that meeting go?

10:15 Gregory: Well, she offers him $50 for the capture of Cheney. Rooster is skeptical, but agrees to give her supper and to make medicine. We'll talk things over. That evening, Matty finds he lives in the back of a grocery store run by Chen Li. After supper, Chen and Rooster play cards. Finally, Matty asks Rooster about her proposition. Rooster says his price is $100, not $50, and he still wants to think it over.

10:38 Elizabeth: Matty is initially afraid to walk back to the boarding house in the dark. Rooster refuses to accompany her. She falls asleep at Chen's. Later, a drunken rooster wakes her up. Rooster offers to trade a small lady's gun for Maddie's father's pistol, an old Colt's Dragoon. Maddie refuses and walks back to the boarding house alone.

10:59 Gregory: Maddie wakes up at the Monarch boarding house with a cold. She goes back to bed and Mrs. Floyd gives her some medicine, Dr. Underwood's bile activator. Maddie stays in bed for two days. On the evening of the second day, Maddie rises and has supper in the dining room. A stranger arrives, the Texas Ranger, LeBouf. He calls himself LeBeef. He wears big spurs and a fancy gun belt, bedecked with cartridges. He grins readily and has a confident manner that cowed everybody at the table, except Maddie.

11:28 Elizabeth: LaBeouf reveals he knows Maddie's name and has spoken to her mother. LaBeouf and Maddie confer in private, and he shows her a picture of Tom Chaney from before Chaney had gotten the black mark on his face. LaBeouf says Chaney's real name is Theron Chelmsford, and he is wanted for killing a Texas senator and his dog. LaBeouf reveals he is a Texas Ranger pursuing Chaney. Maddie tells him she has hired Rooster Cogburn to pursue Chaney.

11:56 Gregory: LaBeouf proposes he join forces with Rooster. He plans to bring Chaney to Texas to stand trial. LaBeouf will get a reward for Chaney in Texas. Maddie replies, Chaney is not going to Texas. He is coming back to Fort Smith and Hang. Maddie regrets opening up to this stranger. Maddie regrets opening up to this stranger. She blames LaBeouf's good looks and the doping effect of the cold medicine.

12:18 Elizabeth: Maddie is tart with LaBeouf. She advises him to get himself another marshal since she has already laid claim to Rooster. LaBeouf says she should leave criminal investigation, quote, in the hands of men who know the work, end quote. Maddie scoffs at LaBeouf, who has been unable in four months to, quote, find Tom Chaney with a mark on his face like a banished cane.

12:41 Gregory: LaBeouf comments on Maddy's saucy manner. Maddy tells him, I will not be bullied. Angered, LaBeouf says he had thought of stealing a kiss, but now I am of a mind to give you five or six good licks with my belt. Maddy says both prospects would be unpleasant, concluding, I have no regard for you. LaBeouf leaves, quote, clanking away in all his Texas trappings.

13:03 Frank: Porter Sud draws attention to LaBeouf as a fictional character, and Maddy remarks his fancy Texas trappings are like something you might see today in a Wild West show. LaBeouf is already a parody of a Wild West lawman. His getup is absurd in Maddy's eyes. Later, Rooster will claim LaBeouf is just spouting common Texas cowboy myths when he speaks of being so deprived of water, he drank from a muddy hoofprint. Rooster says he has yet to meet, quote, one of you Texas cowboys who does not claim he drank from a horse track.

13:33 Elizabeth: Maddie receives a letter from lawyer Daggett containing the signed release for Colonel Stonehill. The lawyer says her mother is very worried and he tells her to hurry home. Maddie goes to Stonehill's to get her money. She insists on cash. When Maddie returns to the Monarch, LaBeouf and Mrs. Floyd are at the breakfast table where Mrs. Floyd talks about Maddie's affairs.

13:56 Gregory: Maddy goes to see Rooster and is dismayed to find him still in bed at 10 o'clock. They discuss the Wharton case, which Rooster thinks might be appeal. Quote, I should have put a ball in that boy's head instead of his collarbone, end quote, he says of Otis Wharton.

14:10 Elizabeth: Rooster turns the conversation to his feet. Rooster is surprised when Maddie shows him the cash. He does not remember their deal. Maddie reminds him she will pay him $100 to capture Tom Chaney. Rooster confirms the deal, but he is surprised when Maddie expects to go with him. Rooster argues Maddie will slow him down. He cannot fight Ned Pepper's gang, quote, and try to look after a baby at one and the same time.

14:38 Gregory: The argument becomes more intense, with Rooster threatening to slap Maddie, and Maddie ranting about Rooster's lazy, drunken ways. Maddie ends the deadlock by threatening to burn Rooster's expense sheets, which would prevent him from getting paid for his federal marshal work. Rooster consents to bring Maddie along, and she fills out the expense sheets for him.

14:56 Elizabeth: Maddie returns to Colonel Stonehill's to buy a pony to ride into the territory. She drives a hard bargain once again. Though she sold Stonehill the ponies for $20 each that morning, she now insists on paying only $10 to buy one of them back. Tell me this, says the exasperated Colonel, do you entertain plans of ever leaving this city?

15:16 Gregory: When Matty returns to Rooster's, LeBouf is there. Matty wants to cut him out, but Rooster thinks LeBouf and his Sharps rifle could be helpful. We might run into some lively work, he says. Matty refuses, and LeBouf says Rooster has allowed himself to be hoo-rawed by a little girl. Everything gets argued all over again, including Matty's going with them and whether to take Chaney to Texas or Fort Smith.

15:38 Elizabeth: Maddie is adamant Chaney should hang for killing her father, not for killing the senator and his dog. It is nothing to me how many dogs and fat men he killed in Texas, she explains. Rooster tries to placate her, promising her she can humiliate Chaney once he is captured. You can spit on him and make him eat sand out of the road, Rooster says, but we must catch him first. He adds that Maddie is being stiff-necked and she must learn she cannot have her way in every little particular. The argument ends in a stalemate and Maddie storms off.

16:09 Frank: Chapter 5 here introduces contrasting ideas of justice and revenge. It can be argued that justice means the state punishes the criminal, and revenge is the work of individuals. Maddie wants Chaney, quote, to know he is being punished for killing her father, unquote. What Rooster offers her instead is revenge. And that on a petty scale, spitting on Cheney, making him eat dirt, shooting him in the foot. He says she can tell Cheney he's being punished for killing her father. Quote, you can tell him to his face. But without the weight of the state behind it, Maddie's pronouncement would only be personal. Cheney's execution must be done in her father's name and no one else's.

16:46 Gregory: Maddy goes to the monarch to consider her options and finds she has none. She spends the night in Colonel Stonehill's office to save money. In the morning, Maddy rides to the ferry to cross the river. Rooster and LeBouf arrive, heavily armed. LeBouf tells the ferryman that Maddy is a runaway and should be turned over to the sheriff.

17:02 Elizabeth: The ferryman leads Maddy's mount, Little Blackie, off the ferry and up the hill, on the way to the sheriff. Maddy slaps him, takes control of the pony, and rides across the river, arriving there before Rooster and LeBouf.

17:15 Gregory: Rooster and LaBeouf ride off, and Maddy follows. After a while, LaBeouf ambushes Maddy, pulls her from her saddle, and whips her leg with a switch. Maddy complains to Rooster, who orders LaBeouf to stop. She has got the best of us, says Rooster. LaBeouf does not stop until Rooster threatens him at gunpoint.

17:32 Elizabeth: Late on the first day of their journey, Maddie, Rooster, and LaBeouf arrive at Bagby's general store. Rooster questions Bagby about Ned Pepper. Mrs. Bagby is a Native American who speaks quote good English quote and is a Presbyterian which Maddie finds surprising in quote an Indian woman. Rooster learns Ned Pepper has been seen, quote, three days earlier at McAllister's store on the MK&T Railroad, end quote, in the company of a Mexican and a man named Hayes. Rooster believes Chaney is still with Ned.

18:05 Gregory: Maddie, Rooster, and LaBoeuf cross the Arkansas River on a ferry and head for McAllister's 60 miles away. They set up camp at night. Rooster makes fun of Texas Rangers and LaBoeuf takes it badly. Maddie is tired but treats the evening like an adventure. Asking her companions if they would like to hear a ghost story, Rooster prepares for bed, circling himself with a rope to ward off snakes.

18:27 Elizabeth: The trio breakfasts and rides off. When Rooster realizes they will not reach McAllister's before nightfall, he suggests they ride to a dugout he knows of. They find the dugout occupied and Rooster calls out, saying he and two others seek shelter. The occupants refuse.

18:43 Gregory: Rooster recognizes the voice of Emmett Quincy, an associate of Ned Pepper's. LaBeouf throws his coat over the chimney and the occupants are forced to leave the dugout. In the melee, Rooster shoots the other occupant, Moon, in the leg.

18:57 Frank: Rooster questions Moon and Emmett Quincy. Emmett refuses to talk, but the injured Moon begins to weaken. But before Moon can talk, Quincy fatally stabs him, while at the same time, Rooster shoots and kills Quincy. The dying Moon begs not to be left for the wolves, and Rooster promises to bury him. He also promises to sell Moon's things, his traps, and give the money to his brother, George Garrett. In a search of the dugout, Rooster finds a California gold piece that had belonged to Matty's father.

19:24 Elizabeth: The three go outside to wait in ambush for Ned and his companions. Rooster wants to wait until they enter the dugout, then shoot the last man to enter in the back. LaBeouf objects to the unethical plan, but Rooster prevails. LaBeouf and Rooster take positions far from each other. Rooster wants Maddy to stay at a distance, but she sticks close to him where she can see what happens.

19:46 Frank: All right, readers, let's take another break here, and when we come back, we'll see just how this confrontation goes. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back. And welcome back to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo, and today I'm having a conversation about True Grit by Charles Portis. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Elizabeth Flood and Gregory James. All right, readers, when we left, Rooster Cogburn and LeBoeuf were waiting to ambush Ned Pepper and his gang. Gregory, while we wait, we learn more about Rooster.

20:23 Gregory: Well, while they wait for Ned, Rooster and Maddie talk. Rooster talks about his part in the Civil War. He was wounded in Missouri and lost his eye. The criminal, Cole Younger, then a soldier, saved his life. He regrets that Cole is now doing time for a murder Rooster believes is the fault of Jesse James. He says he does not know Jesse, though his friend Columbus Potter claims Jesse was with us, with Quantrill's raiders at Centralia in Missouri.

20:50 Elizabeth: Rooster also reveals what he did after the war. He was riding with Potter when they were stopped by Union soldiers. They were given a one-day parole and told to report back in the morning. They did not come back because they heard a Union officer would be questioning them to see if they were, quote, bushwhackers. Bushwhacker was the name for Confederate irregulars, like Quantrill's raiders, who carried out raids on civilians. Rooster and Potter left on stolen government mules. On the road, they met a federal paymaster and robbed him of $4,000 in gold.

21:25 Gregory: Rooster also speaks of his married life, his failed law studies, and a restaurant he ran. He admits to another robbery, this one of a bank. He tells of a time he rode straight at seven men, taking the reins in his teeth and a pistol in each hand. He tells of working as a mule drover for an abusive boss. Rooster shot at the boss and grazed his scalp. The boss sent for the law and several marshals arrived. One of the marshals was Rooster's friend, Potter. Potter left with Rooster, claiming he would deliver him to prison, and instead, Potter swore Rooster in as a marshal.

21:57 Frank: Just that easy. Yeah. Maddie would not presume to know who is damned or saved. That's for God to know, according to the doctrine of election. But Maddie has a similar view of people. She sees instantly whether they bear the mark of a, quote, banished cane or have true grit. She believes Rooster has true grit.

22:16 Elizabeth: Maddie falls asleep. When Rooster wakes her, six armed men are riding to the dugout. They realize something is wrong when Quincy does not answer them. When Ned Pepper fires into the air, LaBeouf mistakes the shots for Rooster's signal and starts firing, even though none of the men have entered the dugout yet. Two bandits are shot dead and the others escape. LaBeouf's arm is injured and Rooster grows sulky when Maddie tends to LaBeouf's wound.

22:43 Gregory: Rooster, LaBoeuf, and Maddy ride away with the bandits' horses in tow and four dead bodies—Quincy, Moon, and the two from the shootout. Along the way, they meet travelers who tell them that Ned robbed the mail train.

22:55 Elizabeth: The next morning, they reach McAllister's. Rooster talks to Captain Boots Finch, a member of a police force that handles Native American crimes. Rooster asks Finch to bury Moon and the others. Matty reminds Rooster he promised to sell Moon's horses and send the money to his brother. Rooster tells Finch to send Moon's brother $10.

23:16 Gregory: Rooster proposes leaving Maddie in the care of Mrs. McAllister, the storekeeper's wife. LaBeouf objects, saying, Rooster concedes, grumbling. They leave, but Finch rides after them. He brings news that Otis Wharton escaped from jail.

23:31 Elizabeth: As they ride, Rooster gets drunk. He, Finch, and LaBoeuf compete at shooting corn dodgers from their saddles, and Finch eventually departs. When they have ridden 50 miles, Rooster says they are within four miles of Ned's hideout and can stop for the night.

23:45 Gregory: In the morning, Maddie wakes to find the others already getting ready. She walks down a steep hill in search of water. She finds a stream, but Tom Chaney is there with Ned's horses. Maddie shoots Chaney, and the recoil knocks her off her feet. Chaney's only wounded. Maddie gets to her feet, but her pistol jams.

24:03 Elizabeth: The gunshot attracts LaBeouf and Rooster, as well as Ned Pepper and his gang. The two groups face off across the stream and shots are fired. One of Ned's gang's horses is killed. Because Ned Pepper has Maddie as a hostage, he wins the fight. LaBeouf and Rooster agree to ride away. Ned Pepper says he will release Maddie when he sees they have gone.

24:25 Gregory: Maddy, Tom Chaney, Ned Pepper, and his gang go back uphill. Ned Pepper is accompanied by a Mexican gambler named Original Greaser Bob. That's such a great name.

24:34 Elizabeth: Yeah, not Original Gangster. It's Original Greaser.

24:38 Gregory: Ned Pepper is accompanied by Original Greaser Bob, Harold Parmalee, who imitates animals instead of talking, and Harold's brother, Ross Parmalee.

24:47 Frank: As the group watches Rooster and LaBeouf ride away, Maddie despairs, abandoned by Rooster. She decides Rooster does not have grit after all.

24:56 Elizabeth: Bob's horse was killed in the crossfire at the stream. Ned decides Tom Chaney will stay behind with Maddie and then deliver her to the crossing at Cypress Forks. Ned tells Chaney he will not be paid if he harms Maddie. Ned opens the mail pouch. It contains a registered check. Because he cannot write, he has Maddie sign it over to him. She uses a feather and ashes to scrawl on the check.

25:19 Gregory: Ned, Bob, and the Parmalees ride away, leaving Chaney and Maddy behind. Ned promises to send someone back with a horse for Chaney. Maddy and Chaney sit by a campfire and bicker. Maddy throws a pot of scalding water at Chaney, but he manages to hit her with his pistol, stunning her. Leboeuf emerges from the woods and disarms Chaney, rescuing Maddy.

25:39 Elizabeth: With Chaney under arrest, Maddy and LaBoeuf turn their attention to the meadow below. Ned's gang faces off with Rooster, and Rooster rides at the four men, taking their reins in his mouth to free both hands for shooting. Rooster shoots both Parmalee brothers, and Bob escapes. Ned then shoots Rooster's horse Bea, who falls on Rooster, trapping him. Ned is about to shoot Rooster when LaBoeuf fires his sharpest rifle from the distant hilltop, killing Ned.

26:07 Gregory: Chaney takes advantage of the distraction to hit LaBeouf on the head with a rock. Maddie fires her pistol at Chaney, striking him in the head and apparently killing him. The gun's recoil knocks Maddie into a pit.

26:18 Elizabeth: Maddie lands in a hole on the floor of the pit. She is partly wedged in, but in danger of falling further. Her right arm is broken. The hole she is in is used by bats to fly out at night. She sees a dead man in the pit and she pulls at his shirt to keep herself from falling farther in the hole.

26:36 Frank: Yeah, but moving the corpse awakens rattlesnakes that were nesting inside. And as the snakes move, Maddy uses a bone from the man's body to ward them off. Maddy hears a voice from above the pit. Chaney is still alive.

26:48 Gregory: Rooster arrives and kills Tom Chaney, causing him to fall into the pit with Maddy. Seemingly, all hope is lost. Suddenly, LaBeouf wakes up and uses Little Blackie to hoist them up with a rope.

27:00 Elizabeth: Rooster tells Maddie he must get her to a doctor. Rooster rides little Blackie, carrying Maddie with him. He rides all the way to Fort Smith. The ride exhausts the pony. Maddie speaks of this, quote, Blackie fell to the ground and died. His brave heart burst and mine broken, end quote. Rooster carries Maddie and then commandeers a wagon to make it the rest of the way. They reach Fort Smith at night.

27:25 Gregory: Maddy spends several days in the care of Dr. J.R. Mettle of Fort Smith. When she comes to, her mother and lawyer Daggett are by her side. The doctor set the broken bone, but the snake bite on her other hand grows worse. The doctor amputates her left arm just below the elbow. Rooster visits Maddy twice while she is sick and dopey. He tells her LaBeouf went into the pit after the body of Tom Chaney. He then went back to Texas hauling the body along with him.

27:51 Elizabeth: Three weeks after their return from the showdown with Ned, Rooster gets in trouble for shooting Otis Wharton and two other men. The other men are not fugitives from the law, and Rooster is forced to resign his post as a federal marshal. Rooster leaves for San Antonio, Texas with his cat, Potter's widow, and her six children. Maddie occasionally hears word of him in the years after.

28:13 Gregory: Her sister, Victoria, and brother, Little Ross, find spouses and move away. Matty remains at home to take care of their mother. In late May, 1903, 25 years after the shooting of Chaney, Little Ross sends Matty a newspaper clipping about Rooster. He's touring the South in a traveling Wild West show. Matty takes the train to see the show in Memphis, Tennessee.

28:34 Frank: Isn't that what she said about LaBeouf made fun of him for dressing like a character in a Wild West show? That's really funny, yeah. And now we've got Rooster doing the same thing.

28:43 Elizabeth: Maddie comes across the entertainers in the rail yard in Memphis, where she meets Cole Younger and Ross James. Maddie notices that they are old and decrepit. Younger rises to greet her, but James does not. Younger tells Maddie that Rooster died a few days before, while the show was at Jonesboro, Arkansas.

29:01 Gregory: Maddy has Rooster's body exhumed and transported to Yell County, where she buries it in the family plot and has a headstone inscribed for him. 25 years later, Maddy seems not to care if people think of her as a cranky old maid, but she does care what people think of Rooster. She tends to his reputation after his death.

29:19 Elizabeth: The newspaper clipping Little Ross sent Matty had read, he rode with Quantrill, he rode for Parker, mentioning both the Confederate guerrillas and his service as a marshal. Parker refers to Judge Isaac Parker, who presided over the trial of Otis Wharton in Chapter 3. The headstone Matty has inscribed ignores his association with those, quote, murdering thieves. Quantrill's raiders. Instead, the headstone describes Rooster only as a resolute officer of Parker's court.

29:51 Frank: At the end here, Maddie remarks she's never married. She says, quote, I never had the time to fool with it. She's heard nothing from Leboeuf and remarks she'd like to hear from him, if he's yet alive and should happen to read these pages. She speculates he must be in his late 70s now, a frailer or less ebullient man than he once was. Time just gets away from us, she says. Thus, Maddie concludes her, quote, true account of how I avenged Frank Ross's blood. And that's how her account and our novel ends. All right, so readers, now let's take a final break and then we'll head into our last segment where I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or perhaps a quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back. And welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo, and today I had a conversation about the novel True Grit by Charles Portis. All right, Elizabeth, Greg, before our break, we ended our story, and now I'd like to ask the two of you to perhaps share a moment or a character or maybe even a quote that we haven't had a chance to get to yet. Elizabeth, do you have something for us?

31:02 Elizabeth: One thing that I noticed is that Maddie never ever uses contractions. Did you notice that?

31:09 Frank: I didn't notice that.

31:11 Elizabeth: She never says don't or won't, like she would say do not. She never once uses a contraction.

31:18 Frank: Interesting. Do you think that's her age or the times?

31:22 Elizabeth: I don't know, that's what I was wondering, is that more typical for a young lady at that time, or is that just kind of her family specifically? I wasn't sure.

31:34 Frank: If I had to pick one, I'd say it was probably the language that a younger girl at that time would have used, right? It's less formal to use contractions, so maybe she's been educated in that more formal manner. It's a good question, though, I guess, and frankly, I did not notice. It's good for you, good on you for spotting that.

31:55 Elizabeth: I'm the only person that would notice that. I'm too obsessed with grammar and I don't know.

32:00 Gregory: I definitely think, I mean, not that Maddie isn't presenting herself in a very adult-like way, but I definitely think that it's kind of a young person's view of what a proper adult would do. So it might be a bit of subconscious projection of just like, this is how an adult would sound when an adult is speaking properly. And it actually makes her stand out amongst adults as they look at her, just like, what is wrong with this girl?

32:26 Frank: Right, and in all these confrontations that she has with adult men mostly, you would think, yeah, she wants to come across as perhaps a bit older than she really is. And she uses this linguistic trick perhaps to make herself sound and be a little bit older.

32:42 Gregory: And it definitely takes people aback, yeah.

32:44 Frank: It certainly took Elizabeth aback. Yeah.

32:47 Gregory: Gregory, you have something? Yeah. My absolute favorite part of this entire book is the negotiation with Colonel Stonehill. Oh my goodness.

32:54 Frank: It's so… Any one in particular or all of the negotiations?

32:59 Gregory: I think they're all fantastic because it reads in just perfect comedic sense of how exasperated he gets and the back and forth. And then, of course, there's the callback when she buys the horse for less than she sold it. And I think it is because she's so proper and she's so set in her ways. And of course, she's retelling the story so we don't get that kind of wavering. There is no wavering. She is completely 100% certain of what she needs to do, the dollar amount she wants. And all of her arguments are completely sound in her mind. And Colonel Stonehill, he just can't comprehend where she's coming from. But still, she gets the best of him every time.

33:40 Frank: Well, you can imagine he's probably never dealt with a young girl that is so forceful and so determined and so good at these negotiations.

33:49 Gregory: Yeah, absolutely. And then along with that, Lawyer Daggett, there's definitely a part of you that thinks she's inventing Lawyer Daggett. And then when he shows up like Wizard of Oz style over the bed, it's just like, he was real all along.

34:03 Frank: And you were there, and you were there. Yeah, and that's what I was gonna say about her negotiating tactics. She always has lawyer Daggett in her back pocket. Whenever she's gonna need him, she can bring it out. So guys, I have a quick question. Does Maddie have true grit?

34:19 Gregory: I guess you could say you don't earn it. It's something you always have. But I think she wouldn't have said that she did at first. I think it's definitely that stone will of hers that forces her into the position of going. She's going to go. And it's definitely stubbornness. She shouldn't be going. But I think along the way, even Rooster would probably admit that. And he does. When they agree to let her come along, I think they see it in her to say, she's not faking it.

34:49 Frank: And in fact, towards the middle of the novel, LaBeouf says, let her come along. She's earned her spurs, as he says it. Yeah. So true great good. Elizabeth, you got anything more?

35:00 Elizabeth: Yeah, I mean, kind of going along what we were just talking about, at the beginning, like, I hated LaBeouf. I was like, this guy's the worst. You know, Rooster was kind of questionable as well. And over time, I did like to see how Maddie won them over. And by the end, you know, they were so loyal and dedicated to her. And, you know, you can see people are a mixed bag of good and bad, you know. So Rooster did a lot of messed up stuff, but he also was, you know, really devoted to Maddie.

35:34 Frank: He was there for her when she needed him. Absolutely. So you like Leboeuf at the end, even though the characters played by Glen Campbell and his hair never moved throughout a two-hour movie. Have you seen the movie? I have not seen either of the movies, unfortunately. So Glen Campbell, as you know, was a country singer, and he sings, I think, the title track of True Grit, but he had that hair, and it never moved. Gregory, do you have something more to share?

36:03 Gregory: Yeah, so the version I've seen, there was the 2010 version with Jeff Bridges as Rooster.

36:10 Elizabeth: 14 years ago? 14 years ago.

36:11 Gregory: That came out 14 years ago. Haley Steinfeld was Maddie and Matt Damon was LaBeouf. I don't think he had enough hair to not, yeah. To have that problem.

36:20 Frank: To glue it down.

36:21 Gregory: Right. But I mean, it's phenomenal. Obviously, I watched that before I read this. And as I was reading, I mean, it's beat for beat, line for line. Wow. Have you seen the original? I haven't. Okay. Is that just as honorable?

36:37 Frank: I think it's very honorable to the book. I haven't seen the new one. So we're both maybe talking past each other, but I will look up the new one if you'll check out the old one.

36:47 Gregory: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the new one, the only thing I can think that's really in there, I believe they show the mail train robbery. That is not in the original. okay, it's just a little bit more exciting maybe to pad out some runtime, but I can't think of a single thing that happens in this book that didn't happen in that movie. Granted, I saw it 14 years ago, but it just, everything felt so true. And I was like, oh, okay, this is, yeah, it's beat for beat.

37:11 Frank: That's great. During our pre-talk, you mentioned that it won, or maybe it was Elizabeth that mentioned it won several Oscars.

37:17 Elizabeth: I know that it was nominated for a bunch. I don't remember how many it won, but it was big at the Oscars that year.

37:25 Frank: I just have one more thing to add. Maddie mentions that she hopes LaBeouf will read her account of this adventure. So I'm thinking she's written a book or there's a book about her adventures. She'd like to hear from LaBeouf if he's yet alive and should happen to read these pages. So I got the impression, I don't know if you guys did or not, but this is a book now that she's actually written and maybe reading to us or quoting from it for us, telling us her story.

37:59 Gregory: Yeah, I certainly felt that, that it was an intentional recounting of a story, not really like a campfire story, but a way for her to kind of honor the lives of these people and carry their legacy. And I think that that's probably why she says it. Why she's writing that. Yeah, yeah.

38:15 Frank: All right, guys, I think we'll end our conversation there. I want to, again, thank both of you for coming in and talking to us today. Thanks so much.

38:21 Elizabeth: Thanks, Frank. It was a great read.

38:22 Frank: That was a good read. I agree with you, Elizabeth. I'm Frank Lavallo. You've been listening to Novel Conversations. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation. Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find us on Instagram at Novel Conversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and in anything else we've got in the works. I want to give special thanks to our readers today, Elizabeth Flood and Gregory James. Our sound designer and producer is Noah Foutz, and Gray Sienna Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Brigid Coyne and Joan Andrews. I'm Frank Lavallo. Thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation all your own.