00:11 Frank: Hello, and welcome to Novel Conversations, a podcast about the world's greatest stories. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, and for each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book, and together we summarize the story for you. We introduce you to the characters, we tell you what happens to them, and we read from the book along the way. So if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place. This episode's conversation is about the novel Moby Dick, or The Whale, by Herman Melville. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Anthony Mahramus and Katie Porcile. Katie, Anthony, welcome. Thank you, Frank. Glad to have you both here for this conversation. Before we get started, let me give an introduction to this episode's novel. Written in 1851, Moby Dick, or The Whale, is a novel by American writer Herman Melville. The book is the sailor Ishmael's narrative of the maniacal quest of Ahab, captain of the whaling ship Pequod, for vengeance against Moby Dick, the giant white sperm whale that bit off his leg. Moby Dick was published to mixed reviews, was a commercial failure, and was out of print by the time of the author's death in 1891. Its reputation as a great American novel was established only in the 20th century, after the 1919 centennial of Melville's birth. D.H. Lawrence called it, quote, one of the strangest and most wonderful books in the world and the greatest book of the sea ever written, unquote. The book was first published in three volumes as The Whale in London in October of 1851 and under its definitive full title, Moby Dick or The Whale, in a single volume edition in New York that November. The book's literary influences include Shakespeare, Thomas Carlyle, Sir Thomas Brown, and the Bible. I think he was just showing off to how much he'd read. In addition to the narrative prose, Melville uses styles and literary devices ranging from songs, poetry, and catalogs to Shakespearean stage directions, soliloquies, and asides. Its opening sentence, Call me Ishmael, is among world literature's most famous. Melville drew on his experience as a common sailor from 1841 to 1844, including on whalers and on his wide reading in whaling literature. The white whale is modeled on a notoriously hard-to-catch albino whale called Mocha Dick, The detailed and realistic descriptions of whale hunting and of extracting whale oil, as well as life aboard a ship among a culturally diverse crew, are mixed with exploration of class and social status, good and evil, and even, yes, the existence of God. So readers, our novel begins with a narrator who introduces himself with one of the best-known opening lines in literature. Anthony?
02:45 Anthony: He says, call me Ishmael. Ishmael is a sailor, and he explains that he went to sea because he was feeling a, quote, damp, drizzly November in his soul and craved adventure.

02:55 Frank: And Katie, he does just that. He goes sailing, or maybe more specifically, he goes whaling.

03:00 Katie: He does. Ishmael travels from New York to New Bedford, Massachusetts, the whaling capital of the United States. He arrives too late to catch the ferry to Nantucket, the original whaling center of New England. For the sake of tradition, Ishmael wants to sail in a Nantucket whaler. For now, however, he has to spend a few nights in New Bedford.

03:21 Anthony: He roams the streets looking for an inn, but those that he finds seem too expensive. Ishmael finally wanders into the Spalder Inn, owned by Peter Coffin. The place is dilapidated and cheap. Because the inn is nearly full, Ishmael learns they don't have to share a room with a, quote, dark-complexioned harpooner named Queequeg.

03:39 Frank: He passes the evening in the bar with, as he says, a wild set of mariners waiting for Queequeg to arrive. And when Queequeg finally arrives, the frightened Ishmael watches him from the bed, noting with horror the harpooner's tattoos and tomahawk pipe.

03:52 Katie: Queequeg sets up and worships a small, dark-colored idol. His prayer's over, he discovers Ishmael in his bed. He flourishes the tomahawk pipe as Ishmael shouts for the inn's owner. After Coffin explains the situation, Ishmael and Queequeg settle in for the night, Ishmael having decided that it is better to share a bed with a sober cannibal than a drunken Christian.

04:18 Anthony: We're really getting a taste of the culture of the 1850s here. When Kwee Kweg and Ishmael wake up the next morning, Ishmael watches the cannibal don a fancy hat and boots and shave himself with his harpoon. He marvels at the savage's understanding of civilized manners.

04:34 Katie: Ishmael wanders about New Bedford, marveling at the town and its people. Because of the maritime industry centered there, the town is full of men from all corners of the globe, from the South Pacific to the remote mountains of Vermont. The great mansions and finely dressed women of the town all exist thanks to the high prices that the whale oil commands.

04:55 Anthony: Ishmael finds the Whaleman's Chapel, which contains plaques commemorating those lost or killed at sea. And he ponders the contradictory message inherent in the chapel. If heaven really is a better place, it doesn't make sense for a dead man's friends and relatives to mourn him so inconsolably. Ishmael's surprised to find Queequeg in the chapel.

05:13 Katie: A man arrives at the chapel and climbs up a rope ladder into the pulpit, which is shaped like a ship's bow. He is Father Mapple, the preacher in this chapel, a favorite among Whalesmen for his sincerity and ability to make his sermons relevant to their lives.

05:29 Anthony: Mapple takes his theme for this Sunday's sermon from the story of Jonah, the prophet swallowed by a great fish. In other words, a whale. Mapple typically uses Jonah's story to preach about man's sin and his willful disobeying of God's commandments.

05:43 Frank: These chapters established a basic plot and thematic conflicts of Moby Dick and also introduced two of the novel's most important characters, Queequeg and Ishmael. The command, call me Ishmael, lends a mysteriousness to the narrator's identity. Nevertheless, his seemingly adopted name singles his identification with the biblical outcast from the book of Genesis. Ishmael is a dreamer, given to philosophical speculation, but essentially he's passive. He's more of an observer than a major participant in some of the events we're going to talk about.

06:15 Katie: Although it's not apparent from the first chapter, Ishmael is more than just the narrator. His remarks later in this novel indicate that he has written the text that we have in our hands and that the extracts and scholarly material that preface the book are the fruits of his own research.

06:32 Anthony: There's a marked difference between Ishmael's low status as a character, in which role he is a nearly penniless and inexperienced junior hand on board ship. Contrast that with his magisterial presence as a narrator, with his sweeping philosophical and scientific ambitions. Clearly, he writes as a much older and more experienced sailor than he is during the events of the novel.

06:51 Frank: And I would say the comical process by which Ishmael befriends Queequeg introduces one of the novel's major facets, the topic of race relations. By developing a relationship with this, quote, savage, Ishmael shows that he isn't bound by his prejudices. Indeed, his interactions with Queequeg make Ishmael realize that although most would call Queequeg a savage, the harpooner actually has a deeper understanding of what, quote, civilization means than perhaps most white men do.

07:18 Katie: Contemplating Queequeg's serene comportment, Ishmael develops a great respect for his new friend, noting that, quote, you cannot hide the soul under tattoos and appearances. Although Ishmael still thinks of Queequeg as a savage, he makes some small gestures of friendship towards Queequeg, and the two become friendly.

07:38 Anthony: Kwekweg is a native of a South Pacific island called Cocovoco, which is quote, not down on any map, true places never are. Kwekweg is the king's son, and he desired to leave the island to see the world. And he claims to learn about Christianity. When a whaling ship stopped to Cocovoco, he sought passage but was denied a job. He stowed away on the departing ship and through sheer persistence was finally taken on as a whaler.

08:02 Frank: And since then he's become a skilled harpooner, and although his father's probably dead by now, meaning that Queequeg would be king, he can never go back because now his interactions with Christianity have made him unfit to ascend his homeland's, quote, pure and undefiled throne.

08:18 Katie: Together, Ishmael and Queequeg set off for Nantucket with the wheelbarrow full of their things. The people of New Bedford stare at this white man and savage, behaving so friendly with each other. Queequeg tells Ishmael about the first time that he used a wheelbarrow. He picked it up instead of wheeling it,

08:35 Frank: While they're on the ferry to Nantucket, a bumpkin mimics Queequeg. Queequeg flips the man around in the air to rebuke him and is subsequently scolded by the captain. A moment later, a rope in the ferry's rigging breaks and the bumpkin is swept overboard as the ferry goes out of control. Sure enough, Queequeg takes charge of the ropes to secure the ferry and then dives into the water to save the man who had gone overboard, which wins everyone's respect.

08:59 Anthony: Charged by Yojo, Queequeg's wooden idol, To seek a ship for the two men, Ishmael lights upon the Pequod a ship, quote, with an old-fashioned, claw-footed look about her. Ishmael also calls the Pequod a cannibal of a craft because it is bejeweled with whale parts. On board, he makes a deal with Peleg and Bildad, the ship's Quaker owners, who are characterized as conniving cheapskates and bitter taskmasters. Although Quakers are generally pacifists, these two have dedicated their life to the bloody slaughter of whales.

09:31 Frank: Evaluating what, quote, lay Ishmael should receive, Peleg finally gives him the three hundredth lay. Each man on his ship received a, quote, lay, or percentage of the profits instead of wages, the size depending on his status. The captain earned the largest share, perhaps one-eighth of all profits, and the green hand, an experienced crewman, the least, as little as one three hundred and fiftieth share of all the profits.

09:57 Anthony: At this time, Ishmael also learns that the ship's captain is the mysterious Ahab, named after a wicked Israelite king who angers God with his worship of idols. Although Ahab has been moody and secretive since losing his leg in an encounter with the great white whale, Bildad and Peleg believe in his competence and they believe him harmless since he has a young wife and an infant child waiting for him at home.

10:21 Frank: To the crew, Ahab seems an ominous figure. His obsession with the whale, a sort of perverse worship, has already injured him physically and spiritually, and we quickly get the sense that the conflict will only heighten. And though the owners object at first to his paganism, Queequeg impresses them with his skill by hitting a tiny spot of tar on the water with a harpoon. They give him the 90th lei, more than ever given to a harpooner yet out of Nantucket.

10:48 Katie: Then returning to the inn, Ishmael allows Kwi Kweg a day for his Ramadan ceremonies and then worries when his friend doesn't answer the door in the evening. When the panicky Ishmael finally gets the door open, he finds Kwi Kweg deep in meditation. Kwi Kweg is unresponsive and continues to meditate until the next morning. Ishmael talks to Kwi Kweg about the discomforts of Kwi Kweg's religion.

11:13 Anthony: Just after signing the papers, Ishmael and Queequeg run into a scarred and deformed man named Elijah, a prophet or perhaps merely a frightened stranger, probably a prophet, who hints to them about the peril of signing aboard Ahab's ship. He drops references to several frightened incidents involving Ahab, but Ishmael and Queequeg disregard the man's warnings.

11:34 Frank: Probably a prophet because he's named after a biblical prophet.

11:39 Anthony: I don't know, I just have a feeling. It's just, something tells me.

11:42 Frank: Well, and that's why, right, guys, these chapters are filled with foreshadowing and dark imagery. Elijah, who shares his name with the Old Testament prophet who foretold destruction to the biblical Ahab, tells Ishmael and Queequeg, the Pequod is doomed.

11:57 Katie: Approaching the Pequod at dawn, Ishmael thinks that he sees sailors boarding the ship and decides that the ship must be leaving at sunrise. As the sun rises, the Pequod crew arrives and the ship prepares to sail.

12:10 Frank: All right, readers, I think with that start, let's take a break here. And when we come back, we'll start our quest for the great white whale. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back. Welcome back. I'm Frank Lavallo, and this is Novel Conversations. And I'm having a conversation about the novel Moby Dick by Herman Melville. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Anthony Moramus and Katie Porcile. All right, when we left, we were about to start our voyage in search of Moby Dick.

12:47 Katie: The Pequod leaves Nantucket on a cold Christmas day. Bildad and Peleg pilot the ship out of port. Ahab still has not appeared on deck. The Pequod is soon clear of the harbor and into the open ocean, and Bildad and Peleg take a small boat back to the shore as the whaling ship, quote, plunges like fate into the lone Atlantic.

13:10 Anthony: In the first of the two chapters called Knights and Squires, we meet the first mate, Starbuck, a pragmatic, reliable Nantucketer. Starbuck believes that it is rational and necessary to fear whales, and his reverence for nature inclines him towards superstition. He's characterized by the other officers of the Pequod as careful, although this term is relative when used to describe a whaler.

13:31 Katie: The second chapter, called Knights and Squires, introduces the rest of Pequod's officers. The pipe-smoking second mate, Stubb, a native of Cape Cod, and the third mate, Flask, a native of Tinsbury on Martha's Vineyard, is a short, stocky fellow with a confrontational attitude and no reverence for the dignity of the whale.

13:53 Anthony: Each mate commands one of the small harpoon boats that are sent out after whales, and each has a squire, his harpooner. Queequeg is Starbuck's harpooner. Tashtego, an unmixed Indian from Gay Head on Martha's Vineyard, is Stubb's harpooner. And Dagu, a quote, gigantic coal black Negro savage from Africa with an imperial bearing, is Flask's harpooner.

14:15 Frank: Ishmael notes that few whalers are American-born except, of course, for the officers, who are almost always American, while the rest of the crew is more international. Ishmael also mentions Pip, a poor black boy from Alabama who beats a tambourine on the ship.

14:29 Katie: Ahab finally appears on deck. Ishmael observes him closely. Ahab appears a strong, willful creature, though his encounter with Moby Dick has scarred him both physically and mentally. In addition to missing a leg, Ahab is marked with a white scar down one side of his face that looks like a lightning scar. Rumor has it that the scar suddenly appeared during some elemental strife at sea. Ahab stands watch with his false leg, carved from a whale's jaw, set into a hole bored into the deck.

15:02 Frank: Kate, I think you're right. Ahab does seem psychologically troubled. He maintains a total dictatorship on board, he's restless and paces the deck, and the striking of his peg leg on the wood echoes throughout the ship. When Stubb complains about Ahab's pacing, Ahab calls him a dog and advances on him. Stubb retreats.

15:20 Anthony: The next morning, Stubb tells Flass that he dreamed that Ahab kicked him with his ivory leg. As Stubb finishes telling of his dream, Ahab shouts at the crew to be on the lookout for whales. The Pequod's work has begun.

15:32 Frank: So listeners and readers, Chapter 32 is titled Cytology. Cytology, as Ishmael explains, is, quote, the science of whales. And I just wanted to note that in this and subsequent science-centered chapters of the book, Ishmael attempts to classify whales scientifically. And some of this goes on for pages and pages. It's fascinating for the scientific mind. As readers and listeners, you'll have to decide whether it's fascinating for a literary mind. But he includes quotations from various writings on the whale, adding that others might be able to revise this draft of a classification system. As I said, the science is beyond the scope of this conversation, but I enjoyed much of the information and knowledge that Melville looks to impart to us.

16:12 Anthony: For sure. It really colored it in and gave you more of that, how he approached it as a character too.

16:17 Frank: Absolutely. He approached it, right, as a character and then as Melville and Melville as a writer.

16:22 Anthony: Right. Right. He did his research. Chapter 34 shows the ship's officers at dinner. Meals are a rigid affair over which Ahab presides. No one talks and a strict order of service is followed. After the officers finish eating, the table is relayed for the harpooners who eat heartily, intimidating the cook with their voraciousness. The cabin is not a comfortable place for anyone as it is Ahab's territory.

16:44 Katie: Ishmael describes his first post on the masthead, or the top of the ship's mast, watching for whales. In one of his many, many digressions, even more than I do, he provides a history of mastheads and their role on whaling ships. Sure. I was wondering. Otherwise you'd have to Google it. The masthead is a place where whalers spend a great deal of time, and Ishmael laments its lack of comforts. On a South Seas ship, the masthead offers only two small pegs upon which to stand. He compares this setup to that of other ships, which have miniature cabins atop the masts.

17:22 Anthony: Ahab finally makes an official appearance before the men. First, he stirs the crew by calling out simple questions about their mission, to which they respond in unison. He then presents a Spanish gold doubloon, proclaiming, Whosoever of ye raises me a white-headed whale with a wrinkled brow and a crooked jaw, he shall have this gold ounce, my boys. Nicely done, pirate-speak.

17:44 Katie: The men cheer, and the harpooners ask if it is Moby Dick that Ahab seeks. Ahab then confesses, in response to Starbuck's query, that it was indeed Moby Dick who stripped him of his leg, and he announces his quest to hunt the whale down. The men shout together that they will hunt with Ahab, though Starbuck protests that he, quote, came here to hunt whales, not his commander's vengeance.

18:10 Anthony: Ahab commences a ritual that binds the crew together. He orders all of his men to drink from one flagon that gets passed around. Ahab anoints Kwekwek, Teshtego, and Dagu, quote, my three pagan kinsmen. He then makes them take the iron off of the harpoons to use as drinking goblets. They all drink together as Ahab proclaims, God hunt us all if we do not hunt Moby Dick to his death.

18:32 Katie: Once alone, Ahab offers a melancholy soliloquy. He notes that everyone thinks that he is mad and that he agrees with them to a certain extent. He self-consciously calls himself demoniac and madness maddened. He reveals that it was foretold that he would be dismembered by a whale.

18:51 Frank: And in chapter 38, titled Dusk, we get Starbuck's answering monologue. As we said, Melville uses lots of different literary techniques. Though Starbuck fears that it will all turn out ill, he feels inextricably bound to Ahab, compelled to help him to, quote, his impious end. When he hears the revelry coming from the crew's forecastle, he laments the whole doomed voyage and the, quote, latent horror in life. And in Chapter 39, called First Night Watch, is Stubb's monologue providing yet another perspective on the voyage. Stubb, believing all to be predestined, can only laugh and sing a little ditty.

19:29 Anthony: Ishmael explains that Ahab lost his leg when he tried to attack Moby Dick with a knife after the whale destroyed his boats. Far from land, Ahab did not have access to much in the way of medical care and thus underwent unimaginable physical and mental suffering on the ship's return to Nantucket. Ishmael deduces that Ahab's madness and his single-minded drive to destroy the whale must have originated during his bedridden agony.

19:52 Katie: We're given a short, dramatic dialogue between two sailors on watch. One thinks that he has heard a human-like noise from the hold, where the ship's cargo is normally stowed. The other hears nothing, and the first reminds him that Stubb and the others have whispered about a mysterious passenger in the hold.

20:10 Anthony: Ishmael describes Ahab's attempts to locate Moby Dick. Ahab believes that he can predict where the whale will be by tracing currents that the whale might follow in search of food. He is also aware that Moby Dick has been known to show up in a certain place at the same time every year. Ahab's single-minded focus occasionally leads him to burst into fits of near-mad shrieking.

20:33 Katie: Ishmael considers the means by which Ahab will exact his revenge. Because Ahab must use men as his tools, he has to be careful to maintain their loyalty throughout the long sea voyage. Ahab knows that he can appeal to their emotions for a limited time, but cash is a more reliable motivator. He is acutely aware that he has changed the purpose of the voyage from that which the ship's owners intended. He knows that he must aggressively pursue all sperm whales in his path, or his officers will have grounds to relieve him of his command.

21:06 Frank: At this point Ishmael describes the slow, almost dreamy atmosphere on the ship when it's not in pursuit of a whale. But the ship is soon jolted out of their reverie by Tashtego's sighting of a whale. Suddenly, everyone is busied in preparation for the whale hunt. Just as the men are about to push off in the harpoon boats, quote, five dusky phantoms emerge around Ahab.

21:27 Anthony: As the crew launches the harpoon boats for the first time this voyage, Ahab's secret crew emerges from the hold and boards the captain's harpoon boat. Fadala, their leader, is a dark sinister figure with a Chinese jacket and a turban made from coiling his own hair around his head. With him are several more quote tiger yellow natives of all the Manilas, the Philippines, who have been hiding in the hold of the Pequod. Ishmael recalls the shadowy figures that he saw boarding the ship in Nantucket, the strange noises that had been heard coming from the hold, and Ahab's frequent visits down there. All these phenomena are explained by the presence of Adalah and his men.

22:06 Frank: And Ahab's decision to have his own harpoon boat and crew, says Ishmael, is not typical practice in the whaling industry. Captains do not frequently risk themselves in pursuit of whales, and Ahab's injury makes it even more surprising that he would personally command a harpoon boat.

22:22 Katie: Clearly, the Pequod's owner would not approve, which accounts for Ahab's secrecy about his plans. However strange, quote, Anna Whaler wonders soon wane, because there are so many unconventional sights on such a voyage. Even though whalesmen are not easily awestruck, they find Ahab's crew bizarre, and, quote, that hair-turbaned fadalla remains a muffled mystery to the last. Ishmael hints that there is something, quote, demoniacal about that man.

22:53 Anthony: The Pequot's first lowering after a pod of whales is unsuccessful. Queequeg manages to land a harpoon in a whale, but the animal overturns the boat. The men in Queequeg's boat are nearly crushed by the ship as it passes, looking for them, since a squall has cast mist over everything. Finally, however, they are pulled aboard.

23:11 Katie: And looking down from the masthead one night, Fadala thinks that he sees a whale spouting. The ship then tries to follow it, but the whale is not seen again. Mysteriously, a similar spout is seen regularly each night from then on. Ishmael calls it a spirit spout because it seems to be a phantom leading them on. Some think it might be Moby Dick leading the ship on toward its destruction.

23:36 Frank: The men soon see a ship called the Guni, or Albatross, a vessel with a, quote, spectral appearance that has been at sea for four years. Ahab asks the ship's crew as the two ships pass by if they've seen Moby Dick. The other captain tries to respond, but a gust of wind blows the speaking trumpet from his mouth. Two ships wakes cross as they continue on, and the schools of fish that have been following the Pequod turn and follow the Albatross, which saddens Ahab.

24:03 Anthony: I like that. It's like, hey, Ahab's got something to say. I bet I know what he's going to ask. Ishmael then explains why the Pequod and the Albatross did not have a, quote, GAM. Ishmael defines a GAM as a, quote, social meeting of two or more whale ships, generally on a cruising ground, when, after exchanging hails, they exchange visits by boat's cruise, the two captains remaining on board of one ship and the two chief mates on the other. Ships typically exchange letters, reading material, and news of their relative successes. Ahab, however, desires GAMs only with ships whose captains have information about Moby Dick.

24:39 Frank: Readers, let's take a break here and when we come back we'll continue our quest for Moby Dick and maybe we'll get to enjoy a gam or two. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Novel Conversations. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, and today I'm having a conversation about Moby Dick by Herman Melville. When we left, we were on our quest to find Moby Dick, and the Pequod had encountered another ship called the Goonie, but Ahab had no interest in talking to the ship's captain because he had not seen Moby Dick.

25:22 Katie: As the Pequod sails towards Java, Dagu thinks that he sights Moby Dick. The boats are lowered and the animal pursued, but it was a false alarm, as it is only a giant squid which is taken as a bad omen. Ishmael notes that the squid is conjectured to be the sperm whale's food. Kwee Kweg views the squid as a good omen, indicating the presence of a sperm whale nearby. The crew soon sights a spouting sperm whale, which Stubb and Tashtego succeed in killing.

25:54 Frank: The crew lashes the sperm whale that they have caught to the side of the ship to be dealt with in the daylight. But the men are forced to poke with spades and kill numerous sharks that attempt to devour the whale carcass. Queequeg nearly has his hand cut off by the sharp teeth of one dead shark hoisted onto the ship for its skin.

26:11 Anthony: And now the gory business of cutting in or processing the whale commences. And in true Melville fashion, he's happy to get into the details.

26:19 Frank: But listeners, please know I've cut it down from 73 pages of description. Of course, I exaggerate to a few lines here for Anthony.

26:28 Anthony: The cutting in involves inserting a hook in the whale's blubber and peeling the blubber off as one might peel off an orange rind in one strip. Ishmael describes the, quote, scientific anatomical feat of the whale's beheading, which occurs before the carcass is released. The head holds the valuable spermaceti from which the finest oil comes.

26:49 Katie: And after the cutting in, the whale is released for its, quote, funeral, in which, quote, the mourners are vultures and sharks. The frightful white carcass floats away and a, quote, vengeful ghost hovers over it, deterring other ships from going near it. Frequently, floating whale corpses are mistaken for rocks and shoals and thus enter on mariners' charts, causing future whalers to avoid the area. The whale thus continues to inspire terror even in death.

27:18 Anthony: The Pequod spots a right whale. After killing the whale, Stubb asks Flask what Ahab might want with the, quote, lump of foul lard. Right whales were far less valuable than sperm whales. Flask responds that Fidala says that a whaler with a sperm whale's head on her starboard side and a right whale's head on her leaboard will never capsize afterward. Then, they both confess that they don't like Fidala and think of him as the devil in disguise.

27:45 Katie: The right whale's head is lifted onto the opposite side of the boat from the sperm whale's head, and, in fact, the Pequod settles into balance. As Ishmael observes, however, the ship would float even better with neither head there.

27:59 Anthony: The two whale heads hanging from the Pequod provide an opportunity for Ishmael to give a lesson on practical cytology. The sperm whale has a great well of sperm, ivory teeth, a long lower jaw, and one external spout hole. The right whale, on the other hand, Ishmael explains, has bones in its mouth shaped like Venetian blinds, a huge lower lip, a tongue, and two external spout holes.

28:23 Frank: And it's at this point Ishmael examines the Jonah story, which has shadowed the novel ever since Father Mapple's sermon in New Bedford. And he examines it through the eyes of an old Sag Harbor whaleman who questions the tale based on his own personal experience. Sag Harbor, as Ishmael calls him, doesn't believe that a whale of the kind described in the Bible could swallow a man. and he thinks that a whale's gastric juices would not permit a man to survive in the whale's stomach. Ishmael details various theologians' arcane responses to this practical question.

28:52 Anthony: The Pequod encounters a French ship, the Bouton de Rose, Rosebutton or Rosebud, from which a terrible stench arises. This ship has two whales alongside, one, quote, blasted whale, which is a whale that died unmolested by the sea, that is going to have nothing useful in it, and one whale that died from indigestion. Stub asks a sailor aboard the Rosebud if they have any news of Moby Dick. The man answers that they have never heard of the white whale.

29:19 Katie: Crafty Stubb asks why the man is trying to get oil out of these whales when clearly there is none in either. The sailor replies that his captain, on his first trip, will not believe the sailor's own statements that the whales are worthless. Stubb goes aboard to tell the captain that the whales are worthless, although he knows something that the other sailor doesn't. The second whale might contain amber grease, a valuable substance found in the intestines of a sick whale.

29:48 Anthony: Stubb gets the sailor to help him trick the French captain into thinking that the blasted whales pose a threat of infection to the crew. The captain dumps the whales and Stubb, pretending to be helpful, has the Pequod's boats tow the second whale away. As soon as the rosebud leaves, Stubb ties up the second whale and finds the sweet-smelling amber grease inside it.

30:09 Katie: Ishmael explains that ambergris, though it looks like mottled cheese and comes from the bowels of a whale, is actually used in perfumes. He ponders the origin of the idea that whales smell bad. In the past, whaling vessels were unable to render blubber into oil at sea, and the rotting blubber created a powerful stench when they arrived in port. The rendered oil, however, is odorless and a natural cleanser.

30:35 Frank: And listeners, if you're interested in learning more about amber grease, just use the Googles.

30:42 Anthony: Pip, the Pequod's cabin boy, is drafted to be a replacement oarsman in Stubb's harpoon boat. Having performed passably the first time out, Pip goes out in the harpoon boat a second time. This time, however, he jumps from the boat in fear when the whale wraps the bottom of the boat beneath his seat. Pip's boatmates become angry, and they have to cut the whale loose in order to save Pip after he gets tangled in the lines.

31:05 Katie: Stubb tells him never to jump out of a boat again, threatening not to pick him up next time. But Pip does jump in again, and to teach him a lesson, Stubb leaves him alone in the middle of the seas, quote, heartless immensity. This experience drives him mad, at least insofar as his shipmates can observe. Ishmael, on the other hand, declares that the experience endows Pip with divine wisdom.

31:29 Frank: Which might also be madness.

31:32 Anthony: Whalemen are always in the light, Ishmael explains, because their job is to collect oil from the seas. These men have free access to the oil and each keeps a collection of lamps in his bunk. The interior of the ship is illuminated like a temple.

31:46 Katie: The Pequod meets the Samuel Underby, a whaling ship from London with a jolly captain and crew. Ahab asks if the other crew has encountered the Moby Dick. Surprise, surprise. The captain named Boomer has, and he lacks an arm because of it. The two mutilated captains touch their false limbs in a toast. The encounter of Boomer's lost arm is gory, but Boomer doesn't dwell too much on the horrible details, choosing instead to talk about the hot rum toddies that he drank during his recovery.

32:19 Anthony: From the little that he says, the Pequod men gather that Boomer was injured by a loose harpoon dangling from a line attached to Moby Dick. His arm was not severed, but was amputated when the wound became gangrenous. Ahab insists on knowing which way the whale went. The Samuel Enderby's crew believes he is crazy. Refusing the other crew's hospitality, Ahab abruptly returns to his ship.

32:41 Katie: Ahab asks the carpenter to make him a new leg, as the one that he uses is not trustworthy. After hitting it heavily on the boat's wooden floor when he returned from the Samuel Underby, Ahab feels that his leg won't continue to hold together.

32:55 Anthony: Sailors discover that the oil casks in the hold are leaking. Starbuck informs Ahab and suggests that they stop to fix them, but Ahab refuses the stop, saying that he doesn't care about the owners or profit. Starbuck objects, and Ahab points a musket at him, says, Starbuck, I ask thee not to beware of Starbuck. Thou wouldst but laugh. But let Ahab beware of Ahab. Beware of thyself, old man. Ahab abruptly gives in and orders the casks repaired.

33:22 Katie: While the repairs are being made to the casks, Queequeg falls ill. Thinking he is going to die, he orders a coffin made and fills it with his harpoon, his idol, and various other important possessions. He lies in it and closes the cover, and Pip dances around the coffin. Pip asks Queequeg to look for the former's old, sane self in paradise after he dies.

33:46 Anthony: Kwee Kweg soon feels well again and emerges from his coffin. Ishmael attributes this recovery to Kwee Kweg's, quote, savage nature. Kwee Kweg claims that he has willed himself back to health. Kwee Kweg uses the coffin as a chest for his belongings and sets about copying the tattoos on his body onto the lid of the coffin.

34:03 Katie: Ahab asks the blacksmith to make a special harpoon with which to kill the white whale. He gives the blacksmith the stubs of the nails from racehorse shoes, the toughest steel known, with which to make the harpoon. Although Ahab gives the blacksmith directions, he soon takes over the crafting of the harpoon himself, hammering the steel on the anvil and tempering it with the blood of the three harpooners instead of water.

34:29 Anthony: While keeping a night vigil over a whale that was too far away to take back to the ship immediately, Ahab hears from Fadalla the prophecy of his death. Before Ahab can die, he must see two hearses, one, quote, not made by mortal hands, and one made of wood from America. Since it is unlikely that a hearse would be seen at sea, Ahab believes that he will not be killed on this voyage.

34:51 Frank: Fadalla also tells Ahab that he, Fadalla, will die before Ahab and that only hemp can kill the captain. Ahab takes the latter prophecy to mean that he will be hanged, and again thinks his death unlikely to happen at sea.

35:05 Anthony: When the storm finally dies down, Starbuck goes below to report to Ahab. On the way to the cabin, he sees a row of muskets, including the very one that Ahab had leveled him earlier. Angry about Ahab's reckless and selfish behavior, he debates with himself about whether he ought to kill his captain. He decides that he cannot kill Ahab in his sleep and returns to the deck, asking Stubb to wake Ahab.

35:26 Katie: And as the Pequod approaches the equatorial fishing ground, the sailors think that they hear mermaids or ghosts wailing. The manksman says that these are the voices of the newly drowned men in the sea. Ahab laughs at this nonsense, telling the men that they have passed a seal colony in the night.

35:44 Anthony: Many of the men are superstitious about seals, though, and Ahab's explanations help little. The next morning, one of the Pequod's crew falls from a masthead. The lifebuoy that is thrown in after him is old and dried out, and it fills with water and sinks. The man drowns. Starbuck, Stubb, and Flass decide to replace the lifebuoy with Queequeg's coffin.

36:03 Katie: The carpenter grumbles about having to transform the coffin into a buoy. Ahab, aware of the irony of the situation, calls the carpenter, quote, unprincipled as the gods for going through with it.

36:16 Anthony: The Pequod, still looking for Moby Dick, encounters the Rachel. Captain Gardner of the Rachel, after affirming that he has indeed seen Moby Dick, climbs aboard Ahab's ship and begs Ahab to help him find his son, whose whale boat was lost in the chase after the white whale. Ahab refuses, not wanting to waste time that could be used in pursuit of Moby Dick.

36:37 Katie: Ahab, shadowed everywhere by Fadalah, remains on the deck, ever watchful. The crew falls into a routine of stifled silence. This continuous watch sharpens Ahab's obsession, and he decides that he must be the first to sight the whale. He asks Starbuck to help him get up the main mast and watch his rope. While Ahab is up there, a black hawk steals his hat, which Ishmael considers a bad omen.

37:03 Frank: The Pequod then runs into the miserably misnamed Delight, which has previously encountered Moby Dick with the unpleasant result of a gutted whale boat and dead men. As the Pequod goes by, the Delight drops a corpse into the water. The Delight's crew remarks upon the coffin life buoy at the Pequod's stern. To them, it is clear that the coffin is a symbol of doom.

37:24 Anthony: Ahab can sense by the smell of a whale in the air that Moby Dick is near. Climbing up to the main royal mast, Ahab spots Moby Dick and earns himself the doubloon. All the boats set off in chase of the whale. When Moby Dick finally surfaces, he does so directly beneath Ahab's boat, destroying it and casting its crew into the water.

37:44 Katie: The whale threatens the men, but the Pequod, with Starbuck at the helm, drives it away, and the men are rescued by the other boats. The whale then moves away from the ship at a rapid rate, and the boats return to the ship. The men keep watch for Moby Dick, despite the misgivings of Starbuck and the others.

38:02 Frank: Ishmael notes that it's not unprecedented for whalers to give extended pursuit to a particular whale. Ahab, despite the previous day's loss of the boat, is intent on the chase. They do sight Moby Dick again and the crewmen, in awe of Ahab's wild power and caught up in the thrill, lower three boats. Starbuck again remains on board the Pequod.

38:21 Katie: Ahab tries to attack Moby Dick head on this time, but again, the whale is triumphant. Despite the harpoons in his side, he destroys the boat carrying Flask and Stubb by dashing them against one another. He also nearly kills Ahab's crew with the tangle of harpoons and lances caught in the line coming from his side. Ahab manages to cut and then reattach the line, removing the cluster of weapons.

38:45 Anthony: Moby Dick then capsizes Ahab's boat. Ahab's whalebone leg is snapped off in the mishap, and Ahab curses his body's weakness. Upon returning to the Pequod, Ahab finds out that Fadala has drowned, dragged down by Ahab's own line, fulfilling one element of Fadala's prophecy concerning Ahab's death, that Ahab would die after Fadala. Starbuck begs Ahab to desist, but Ahab, convinced that he is only the fate's lieutenant, responds that he must continue to pursue the whale. The carpenter hastily makes Ahab a new leg from the remnants of his harpoon boat.

39:18 Katie: The crew seeks the white whale for a third time, but sees nothing until Ahab realizes, quote, I, he's chasing me now. Not I, him. That's bad. They turn the ship around completely, and Ahab mounts the masthead himself. He sights the spout and comes back down to the deck again. As he gets into his boat and leaves Starbuck in charge, the two men exchange a poignant moment in which Ahab asks to shake hands with his first mate and the first mate tries to tell him not to go.

39:49 Anthony: Sharks bite at the oars as the boats pull away. Starbuck laments Ahab's certain doom. Ahab sees Moby Dick breach. The whale damages the other two boats, but Ahab's remains intact. Ahab sees Fedala's corpse strapped to the whale by turns of rope and realizes that he is seeing the first hearse that Fedala had predicted, in the sense that a hearse is a vehicle, here the whale, that carries a corpse.

40:12 Katie: The whale goes down again and Ahab rows close to the ship. The boat sights Moby Dick again and goes after him. Moby Dick turns around and heads for the Pequod at full speed. He smashes the ship, which goes down without its captain.

40:28 Anthony: The ship, Ahab realizes, is the second hearse of Fidola's Prophecy, since it entombs its crew in quote, American wood. Impassioned, Ahab is now determined to strike at Moby Dick with all of his power. After darting the whale, Ahab is caught around the neck by the flying line and dragged under the seat, the final element of Fidola's Prophecy. The vortex from the sinking Pequod pulls the remaining harpoon boats and crew down with it.

40:53 Katie: Ishmael is the only survivor of the Pequod's encounter with Moby Dick. He escapes only because he has been thrown clear of the area in the wreck of Ahab's harpoon boat. Queequeg's coffin bobs up and becomes Ishmael's life buoy. A day after the wreck, the Rachel saves Ishmael as she continues in search for her own lost crew.

41:15 Frank: And readers, listeners, with that scene of a life saved through the appearance of a coffin, our story ends. All right, Anthony, Katie, let's take a final break now and then head into our last segment where I'd like to ask the two of you to perhaps share a moment or a character or a quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet. You've been listening to Novel Conversations. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo. We'll be right back. Welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo, and today I've had a conversation about Moby Dick by Herman Melville. And I was joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Anthony Mahramus and Katie Portile. Anthony, Katie, before our break, we ended our story, and now I'd like to ask the two of you to perhaps share a moment or a character or maybe a quote that we really haven't had a chance to get to yet.

42:07 Anthony: Anthony, do you have something for us? So obviously I enjoyed reading Ahab's lines, and I wanted to bring up… You really enjoyed reading Ahab's lines.

42:16 Frank: I almost gave you Katie's lines from Ahab as well.

42:19 Anthony: No, no, I'm not that… well, I'll take them. Two reasons that I particularly enjoyed is just for all his going on and on, his writing of dialogue, I think is really exciting. It still holds up. The way an action movie is exciting, just the way he's speaking. Further adding to that, I was able to find through the library an audio book read by William Hootkins. He's not a terribly well-known actor, but he had a standout part in Rages of the Lost Ark. He's just clearly a theatrically trained great actor, and he had these great lines that he would read. That's just in my head.

42:50 Frank: Now, did he use different voices for different characters as he was reading?

42:54 Anthony: A little bit. Okay. Yeah, he would do sort of accents a little bit here and there, but he relished the Ahab. Like when it gets to those parts, he would just really dig into it. How can you not? Right.

43:04 Katie: His lines are so forceful.

43:08 Anthony: And it has the effect, too, of making you go, okay, I can see why he wants to get this whale. It convinces you, which he's hoping to do. So between that and, if anyone's familiar with Star Trek II, the Wrath of Khan.

43:22 Frank: Absolutely. I remember the original Khan being exiled to come back in Wrath. That's how old I happen to be. Yeah, thanks for bringing it up.

43:30 Anthony: That was all a trick to get you to say that. Well, in that time that he was exiled, he had a few books and this was one of them. What he keeps bringing up, Captain Kirk is his Moby Dick and he's the Ahab. And he sort of quotes this. So I thought it'd be fun to read that part in the book because it just stood out to me. I was like, oh wait, I've heard this before. I know that line. Yeah. So he says, this is in the chapter of the quarter deck, chapter 36, which with a book like this is early on. He says, I, I, And I'll chase him round, good hope, and round the horn, and round the Norway maelstrom, and round Perdition's flames before I give him up. And this is what ye have shipped for, men, to chase that white whale on both sides of land, and over all sides of earth, till he spouts black blood and rolls fin out. What say ye, men? Will ye splice hands on it now? I think ye do look brave.

44:22 Frank: Now that perdition's end, that I think is an actual quote that then gets resurrected in Wrath of Khan. I think that's one of the lines Khan actually says.

44:33 Anthony: Yeah, he says that when he's talking about Kirk, he's like, I'll chase him. Chasing Kirk all around the universe. I should know better coming into this, but I believe that they substitute it with some relevant to the galaxy places, but clearly that's where he got it. And there's a couple other moments too, where he says Ahab-like things as his own expression of, I've got to get Captain Kirk. And it's pretty… Katie, do you have something for us?

44:57 Katie: I do. Well, this book is dense and there's so much to read and there's so much excitement. And then in between excitement, there's these long chapters that just kind of talk about whaling or whales or what they look like or how to get the oil and things like that, which is a little bit like being on a whaling ship. because, you know, you see a whale and you get it for the day and then you go days and days without doing anything more. But one thing I like about his descriptions, Melville's descriptions, is every time something comes up that you want to look up on your phone, you don't have to because the next chapter is about that thing for you.

45:34 Anthony: That's great.

45:36 Katie: But he did go into a long diatribe about different images and depictions of whales, which I really loved. The art historian in me really globbed onto that, but those ones I did have to Google and look up. His descriptions are great. You don't have to look them up, but some of them were hard to find. He had some obscure imagery.

45:56 Frank: Back from the 1850s. That's so great. Kate, I was going to bring that part of the book up as well. We did have to leave out a lot of the scientific information that Melville worked really hard to get into the book. I just wanted to mention, we did talk about, I did throw a word out there during our discussion, cytology, which is a branch of zoology that deals with whales, dolphins, and porpoises. So he does spend a lot of time there and I found a lot of it very interesting. I'll admit some of it not that interesting, but I would recommend to our listeners with the scientific bent, there's a lot of really great scientific information in here. But I would then also say to our literary readers, some of it can be skipped. You can go a couple of chapters at a time perhaps and leave some of that scientific behind. But I would warn both our scientific and literary readers, you shouldn't really skip any of it because it's all just really, really good. Maybe you just take a little bit longer to read the book. Anthony, do you have anything else for us?

46:57 Anthony: No, no, I enjoyed this. It was good. I think I said this to you earlier before we were recording. I've always wanted to read this. It was good to have it assigned. To make an assignment. To make it happen.

47:06 Frank: There was homework and a test. Yeah, and I'm glad I did. Katie, anything more for us?

47:10 Katie: Oh, I was just going to mention when I did read it in college, our professor did have us skip some chapters, but now reading it again, I have no idea what he could have decided wasn't necessary because I think they do really all just feed into each other.

47:28 Frank: I guess I'm a little surprised that you would have had a teacher. I am too. Especially, I know where you're schooling that they would make you skip some chapters. Call him out here.

47:38 Katie: Professor. No, I think I must have read it anyway.

47:42 Frank: I guess I will cop to having my students read the Iliad and we skipped a chapter on the catalog of the ships. Yes. That goes on and on and on and on. And it was nice to have that there to show the wide variety of tribes and nations that came, but man. You didn't quiz them on the different- I did not do that. In fact, I may have made a mistake and said, you really don't have to read this chapter. I should have just not said anything, but not quiz them on it. All right, listeners, readers, thank you very much. This has been a great conversation about Moby Dick by Herman Melville. I hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did.

48:18 Katie: As always. Thanks, Frank.

48:20 Frank: Yeah, thank you. I'm Frank Lavallo, and you've been listening to Novel Conversations. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation. Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find us on Instagram at NovelConversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and in anything else we've got in the works. I want to give special thanks to our readers today, Katie Porcile and Anthony Mahramus. Our sound designer and producer is Noah Foutz, and Gray Sienna Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Brigid Coyne and Joan Andrews. I'm Frank Lavallo. Thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation all your own.