00:07 Frank: Hello, and welcome to Novel Conversations, a podcast about the world's greatest stories. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo. And for each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book. And together, we summarize the story for you. We introduce you to the characters, we tell you what happens to them, and we read from the book along the way. So if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place. This episode's conversation is about the novel Metropolis by Thea von Harbou. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations reader, Elizabeth Flood. Elizabeth, welcome.

00:38 Elizabeth: Thanks, Frank.

00:39 Frank: Good to see you. And listeners, I'd like to introduce and welcome our newest reader, Dallas Stark. Dallas, welcome. Glad to have you here.

00:46 Dallas: Thank you. Happy to be here.

00:47 Frank: Glad to have you both here for this conversation. Before we get started, let me give a quick introduction to Metropolis by Thea von Harbu. Metropolis is a science fiction novel written by Thea von Harbu and published in 1925. Metropolis is a dystopian vision of the future. Ironically, perhaps prophetically, the story begins in the year 2026, just one year from now. But as von Harbu states in her introduction, quote, this book is not of today or of the future. It tells of no place. It serves no cause, party, or class. It has a moral which grows on the pillar of understanding. The mediator between the brain and muscle must be the heart. Her husband, Fritz Lang, used the novel as inspiration for his iconic 1927 silent film of the same name. The novel is set in a dystopian future where society is divided into two distinct classes. the wealthy elite who live in the luxurious skyscrapers, and the oppressed workers who sustain the city and toil in harsh conditions beneath the city. The story explores themes of capitalism, class struggle, and the potential consequences of industrialization and technological advancement. So before we introduce some of our characters and tell their story, let's start this conversation with a description of the city, this metropolis. I think metropolis itself feels almost like a character, a massive, mechanized, oppressive urban environment where the workers live in stark contrast to the elite who live above them. Elizabeth, start us off.

02:13 Elizabeth: The novel begins by painting a picture of Metropolis, a sprawling, technologically advanced futuristic megacity that symbolizes the pinnacle of modernity and industrial advancement. The skyline is dominated by towering skyscrapers, but we'll quickly learn that the contrast between the lavish lifestyles of the ruling class and the grim existence of the worker class is stark.

02:37 Dallas: The rich live in the luxurious skyscrapers, enjoying advanced technologies and leisure, while the workers toil below in harsh environments, toiling in the depths of the city to keep the machines running.

02:50 Elizabeth: The disparity highlights the novel's central theme, the struggle between the oppressor and the oppressed, and the consequences of a society that prioritizes wealth and power over human dignity.

03:01 Frank: Dallas, you and Elizabeth both mentioned machines.

03:05 Dallas: Essentially one vast machine, the Hart Machine. The Hart Machine is a central piece of technology in Metropolis, both literally and symbolically. It's a massive power plant that powers the entire city of Metropolis, and it's located in the Machine District, deep below the city's surface. The Hart Machine stands as one of science fiction's most enduring symbols of industrial might and human cost.

03:31 Elizabeth: In Metropolis's underground depths, this massive apparatus pumps life into the city above through a complex network of pipes, gauges, and steam-powered mechanisms. Workers call it the M-Machine, or the Moloch Machine, seeing in its demanding presence a kind of mechanical deity that demands human sacrifice.

03:53 Dallas: The machine's most striking feature is its design. When operating at full capacity, its moving parts create the unmistakable appearance of a beating heart. But this is no benevolent pulse. Workers must move in perfect synchronization with its rhythm, performing exhausting 10-hour shifts of coordinated movements. One wrong step, one moment of fatigue, and the consequences are fatal.

04:17 Frank: What makes The Heart Machine so compelling is how it embodies the novel's central theme. It's both the literal heart of the city and a metaphor for how the wealthy upper class drains the life from the workers below. When our protagonist, Fridor, first sees it, he hallucinates it transforming into Moloch, the ancient deity associated with child sacrifice. In his vision, workers are fed into the machine's maw, a powerful image of how industrialization consumes human lives.

04:45 Elizabeth: The machine's constant need for human operators, who must work in perfect unison or risk death, serves as a brutal reminder of how technology can enslave rather than liberate. It's not just a power plant, it's a temple to efficiency where human beings are reduced to mere components. expected to move with mechanical precision until they break down and are replaced. And I'm guessing, based on how the city is set up, there's probably no other working options for the lower class. They probably just have to participate in the machine or else starve.

05:22 Frank: Their job is to keep the machine running to keep the upper classes in luxury.

05:27 Elizabeth: And there's no other job prospects. That's what you do.

05:30 Frank: There's probably no Dunkin' Donuts on the corner, right?

05:33 Dallas: Yeah. Bummer.

05:35 Frank: OK, readers, how about our main characters?

05:38 Dallas: So we're quickly introduced to the young and privileged protagonist, Frieder Friederson, the son of the city's ruler, Joe Friederson, a powerful industrialist and the master of Metropolis. Joe Friederson is focused on keeping control over the city and its populace. He views the workers merely as tools for maintaining the city system.

05:58 Elizabeth: The son, Frieder, is a young idealist. He has spent most of his time in the Club of the Suns. He lives with his family in a giant skyscraper.

06:08 Frank: Elizabeth, you said Club of the Suns?

06:11 Elizabeth: The Club of the Suns… And that's S-O-N-S. Yes. Yes. The Club of the Suns is high above the city in the clouds where the upper classes live. And this club is at the top of a building called the New Tower of Babel, the main skyscraper in Metropolis. It's an exclusive elite social club that plays a significant role in highlighting the class divisions of the city. The club is made up of wealthy young men, the sons of the city's industrial and capitalist elite, who enjoy lives of privilege and excess. Their activities often revolve around indulgence, luxury, and hedonism, far removed from the suffering and hardship experienced by the workers in the lower levels of the city.

06:58 Dallas: The setting of the club itself is opulent and symbolically distant from the harsh realities faced by the laborers. It serves as a space for these young men to socialize, reinforce their status, and perhaps to distance themselves from the grim realities of the urban landscape below them. The club is emblematic of the upper class's detached and self-serving attitudes toward the plight of the working poor, underscoring the novel's themes of social inequality, exploitation, and the moral decay of those in power.

07:30 Frank: In the narrative, the Club of the Sons acts as a contrast to the labor force, whose workers toil away in the bowels of the city under grueling conditions. This club thus serves as a symbol of the gap between the ruling elite and the oppressed masses, a gap that is a central focus of the novel's exploration of social and economic conflict. We're told, quote, fathers for whom every revolution of a machine wheel meant gold had created for their sons the miracle of the eternal gardens in the Club of the Suns. And so Elizabeth Frieder's father, Joe Friederson, he's the father who built this for the sons.

08:08 Elizabeth: Yes, Joe Friederson is the most powerful and authoritative figure who governs the city of Metropolis. He is the master of the vast industrial empire that powers the city.

08:21 Dallas: In the novel, Joe is also credited, along with a crazy inventor named Rotwang, with the creation of a critical invention, the Machine Man, or Robot. The Machine Man is a mechanical doppelganger of his son, Joe's invention becomes a central plot device in the novel as he uses the robot to manipulate events, control people, and further his own interests.

08:44 Elizabeth: Both Rotwang and Joe loved the same woman, Hel, who passed away years ago. And Rotwang was in love with Hel first, and then Jo ended up being the one to marry her. And they had their son, Frieder, together. And Rotwang has a personal vendetta against Jo for this because to him, he thinks he stole the love of his life.

09:10 Frank: Rotwang never got over that loss.

09:12 Elizabeth: Right. So he is now working on building a robot that will make the woman he loved immortal. And Rotwing actually tells Joe about this. He said he's nearly perfected a machine replica of Hell.

09:25 Dallas: Yeah, he's obsessed with her at this point and has a giant statue of her in his house.

09:31 Frank: OK, with that start, let's take a break here. And then when we come back, we'll get on with our story. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back. And welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. Today we're having a conversation about Metropolis by Thea von Harbu. When we left, we met three of the novel's main characters and the Metropolis. Now let's get into our story. Elizabeth, get us started.

10:04 Elizabeth: Frieder is sitting in the garden of the Club of the Suns one day when a woman from the worker's city, Maria, comes into the garden with a group of children. The beautiful Maria tells the pale, grubby children that their brothers and sisters live in the high rises of the city and that they are all connected. She is quickly ushered away by security, but Frieder is enchanted by her philosophy and instantly falls in love with her.

10:31 Frank: Initially sheltered from the harsh realities of the workers' lives, Frieder experiences an awakening when he encounters Maria, this beautiful and compassionate woman. Maria embodies the ideals of love and unity. She's portrayed as a righteous figure who inspires the workers with her belief in a better future.

10:47 Dallas: Seeking the woman, Frieder makes his way to the lower city. He's both mesmerized and horrified by the grisly sights he encounters. A gargantuan machine explodes, killing a dozen or so employees, but no one seems disturbed or surprised by this explosion.

11:03 Elizabeth: Frieder goes to his father to question him about the hierarchy of the city and the abysmal conditions in the worker's city. But Joe dismisses Frieder's questions.

11:13 Dallas: As Frieder listens, his father hears from the foreman of the heart machine, Grott. that the dead worker was found with several maps in his pockets. He's furious to learn of what he considers resistance and takes his anger out on an assistant, Josaphat, firing the man on the spot. The unemployed Josaphat wants to kill himself, but he's talked out of it by Frieder.

11:35 Frank: Leaving Friederson's office, his son approaches Josaphat and asks for his help, telling him that he will come to meet him at his lower city apartment that evening. Meanwhile, Friederson enlists another assistant, the thin man, to keep his eye on his son Frieder.

11:49 Elizabeth: Frieder goes back to the worker city and switches places with worker number 11811, also known as Georgie. They exchange clothing, and Frieder tells Georgie to go to Josaphat's apartment. Georgie ends up taking Frieder's money to the red light district, where, for a brief time, he lives like a member of elite society. The thin man, watching Frieder's car, mistakes Georgie for Frieder and follows him to the nightclub, where Georgie stays for the entire night.

12:19 Dallas: Friederson visits his old adversary, Rotwang. Friederson tells Rotwang that he has come for advice and pulls out the two plans that were found in the explosion. asking Rotwang to help him interpret them. Meanwhile, in the worker city, a worker comes up behind Frieder, thinking he is Georgie, and tells him that she is calling another meeting at two o'clock when the workday is done.

12:40 Elizabeth: Back in Rotwang's office, he tells Joe that the papers found in the dead workers' pockets are maps to the 2,000-year-old catacombs beneath the lower city. Joe examines the map before saying, I should like to know what my workers are doing in the catacombs. Rotwang leads him down a staircase in his own house into the catacombs. They climb deeper and deeper down various cellar staircases and into the depths, each holding flashlights.

13:09 Frank: Down in the catacombs, they see the workers assembling in a large group. Among them is Frieder, who holds his heart in exhaustion. He has just been released from the typical backbreaking workday of a lower city citizen.

13:20 Elizabeth: Rotwang and Joe find a small portal through which they can spy on the meeting. In the catacombs, the three men hear a beautiful preacher woman. It's Maria, the woman Frieder has been searching for. She says that the original Tower of Babel was destroyed by slaves who had no common language, and encourages everyone to endure their suffering until they have a leader who is capable of listening to all of their needs.

13:46 Dallas: Frieder falls to his knees in admiration. Maria is leading a peaceful revolution in the catacombs of the worker city. She speaks about the need for a mediator, someone who can connect the head, Friedersen's ruling class, and the hands, the working class. Frieder approaches her and she declares that he is the mediator they need.

14:06 Frank: To Maria's sermon, both father and son have entirely distinct reactions. Joe sees her as a distinct threat to his authority over the workers. In contrast, Frieder is now completely in love with Maria and her noble cause and begins to court her.

14:21 Elizabeth: After spying on the meeting that Maria leads, Joe commissions Rotwang to help him undermine the revolution. Joe tells Rotwang to abduct Maria and then build a robot replica of her that he can control.

14:35 Dallas: Though Rotwang agrees to this nefarious task, he takes it on with the hopes of ruining Joe's life and destroying the entire city.

14:43 Frank: The creation of the Machine Man, or Robot Maria, serves as a pivotal point in the story. It highlights the dangers of technology when used for oppressive purposes, and it symbolizes the dangers of unchecked technological advancement. Maria's robotic double, created by Rotwang to incite chaos, becomes an embodiment of the struggle between humanity and machine.

15:03 Elizabeth: Maria and Frieder clutch one another, and Maria tells Frieder that they will see each other tomorrow at the cathedral. They kiss passionately, and Frieder takes his leave. When Maria is alone, she takes a candle and walks through the catacombs. Suddenly, Rotwing drops a rock on the ground, unseen, which startles her. As she rounds a corner, she sees a shadow, which frightens her. Then she continues into another part of the catacombs.

15:29 Frank: So I'm scared, I'm hearing noises, and why don't I just go deeper into the catacombs?

15:34 null: Yeah, right.

15:35 Elizabeth: Well, how well does she know her way around the catacombs? Because that was one thing they mentioned, that it was very easy to get lost.

15:44 Frank: True, but they're holding their meetings there. I mean, she should have some familiarity with it, but obviously we got to get her away from the crowd so that we can abduct her.

15:55 Dallas: A hand reaches out of the shadows and takes Maria's candle, startling her. A light travels around the chamber rapidly, lighting up a skeleton on the ground nearby. Maria is terrified as she sees Rotwang wielding the flashlight and runs from him, screaming. She cannot find any escape and is eventually captured by Rotwang. Frieder spends the rest of the day looking for Georgie and Maria.

16:16 Elizabeth: Maria is being held in some kind of cell. Rotwang approaches her and says, come, it's time to give the machine man your face. And Maria cowers as he corners her with a table. They struggle, but Rotwang pushes her onto the table. She manages to wriggle free and begins screaming through a barred window.

16:34 Dallas: In the square outside, Frieder can hear her cries and runs to Rotwang's door, trying to break it down. He bangs on the door, breaking it open just as Rotwang manages to subdue Maria. When Frieder enters Rotwang's dwelling, the door slams behind him and another opens in front of him.

16:48 Elizabeth: He wanders up the stairs and through the door into a library, then down a set of stairs into an empty cell. He puts a stick in the door to make sure it doesn't close behind him, but it does anyway, and he is locked in the cell, beating on the door to no avail.

17:02 Dallas: Rotwang turns on a large machine and prepares to use Maria's face for the robot. The metallic robot eventually turns into a perfect reproduction of Maria.

17:12 Frank: Okay, let's take a break here, and when we come back, we'll find out what happens to Frieder, Maria, Robot Maria, and the city of Metropolis. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Novel Conversations. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, and I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Elizabeth Flood and Dallas Stark. All right, readers, when we left, Frieda and Maria were captives of Rotwang. Rotwang was producing a robot that's a perfect replica of Maria. Continue our story for us.

17:48 Elizabeth: Frieder sits on the ground, dejected, when suddenly a door opens. He goes through it and up a staircase where he finds Rotwang and asks where Maria is.

17:58 Dallas: Rotwang sends for Joe in order to demonstrate that no elite person in Metropolis could tell that Maria is a robot.

18:05 Elizabeth: He brings Joe over, then turns the robot on. Rotwing gives her an instruction, and she walks toward the end of her platform before reaching out to Joe. Maria flirts with Joe and dances seductively for two other elite men named Jan and Marinus. Helplessly, Frieder watches her, feeling betrayed. And Frieder, at this point, is thinking that is Maria.

18:27 Frank: Frieder thinks it's his love flirting with his father and dancing seductively for these other men. Exactly.

18:34 Dallas: Joe is frightened by the robot and tries to touch it, but Rongwang insists that the robot belongs to him, since Joe got Hel's son, Frieder. Frieder realizes that this isn't the real Maria and shouts an objection.

18:47 Frank: Robot Maria is portrayed as a sexual temptress, a sinful and chaotic entity tasked by Rotwang and Friederson with leading the charge towards mass destruction in the city. Rotwang programs his false Maria, or his robot Maria, to not only destroy Metropolis, but also to murder the son of Joe.

19:06 Elizabeth: The robot version of Maria is amoral and highly seductive, and spends most of her time doing seductive dances at the nightclub, Yoshiwara. Acting as a Helen of Troy figure, the false Maria encourages countless duels among the men, causing many of them to die for her honor.

19:24 Frank: Finally, Friederson discovers Rotwang's nefarious plan and confronts the scientists before beating him up. The scientists, the scientists, the inventor, the scientists.

19:34 Dallas: Joe receives a video phone call from Grott, who tells him that the main gates to the heart machine have been closed because too many workers have rebelled. Surprisingly, Joe tells Grott to open the gates and let the rebellion happen, but Grott insists that if the heart machine is destroyed, the entire machine district will end up in ruins.

19:52 Elizabeth: Joe is planning to let the workers use force so that he is justified in using force against them. When Joe insists, Grott, the operator, reluctantly opens the gates and the workers, led by Robot Maria, stream into the machine.

20:08 Dallas: Rotwang uses the Robot Maria to convince the working class to wage a destructive revolution on the whole city, shutting down all the machines and flooding the worker city. The workers do, as Robot Maria says, and riot.

20:21 Elizabeth: As the revolutionaries charge the heart machine, the engine that keeps the entire city running, its operator Grot pleads with them, insisting that if they destroy the machine, the district will be flooded, but they attack him as Robot Maria turns off the heart machine. Grot tells them that Maria is a witch and must be burned at the stake.

20:41 Dallas: Robot Maria is able to damage the heart machine, which causes flooding around the Lower City. As the working-class adults celebrate the death of the heart machine, Grott informs them that most of their children have probably drowned. In the Upper City, False Maria encourages the elite classes to go outside and watch the destruction of the Lower City.

21:02 Elizabeth: The district begins to flood and mechanisms begin to fail, just as the real Maria is entering the workers' district. Elevators collapse and water begins streaming in. Maria sees a group of children who have been abandoned in the midst of the revolution and tries to pull a lever to stop the flooding as the children run towards her. The children crowd around a platform on which Maria is standing as she tries to reverse the damage being done.

21:30 Dallas: As the workers' city floods, Frieder and Josaphat climb through an entryway and down into the main square where children are crowding around Maria on the platform. Frieder climbs onto the platform and embraces Maria, finally reunited with her. Someone calls to them to go to the air shafts as the reservoirs are flooding. Maria and Frieder, swarmed by children, run towards the air shafts, streaming up a staircase in throngs.

21:53 Frank: At the top of the stairs, they encounter a gate that will not open, and they begin to panic. Frieder and Josaphat climb up to help, and Frieder pushes against the bars as the children swarm around Maria, clutching her in desperation. Frieder eventually manages to push open the gate, and the children run out of the workers' city.

22:10 Elizabeth: A mob passes the false Maria and they tie her to a stake, preparing to burn her like a witch. But the fire reveals that she's just a machine. Realizing they've been tricked, the mob looks around to see Rotwing chasing after another Maria figure, whom they guess to be the real Maria. They join the chase. Frieder also chases after Rotwang to keep the real Maria safe.

22:32 Dallas: At the church, Maria is apprehended by Rotwang, who attacks her as the revolutionaries burn the robot Maria at the stake. Frieder goes to save Maria, fighting with Rotwang along the way. Joe runs in and sees the fight as chaos breaks out among the revolutionaries and witnesses his son's act.

22:49 Elizabeth: Rotwang knocks Frieder to the ground and carries Maria up to the top of the church, at which point she falls, hanging from the edge. Rotwang and Frieder fight on the upper level of the church as the revolutionaries watch from below.

23:03 Dallas: Frieder and Rotwang fall down the roof onto the next level and continue to fight. Rotwang and Frieder exchange blows and Frieder throws Rotwang off of the cathedral roof. He is killed by the fall.

23:14 Elizabeth: After Rotwang dies, Frieder embraces Maria before uniting his father with the operator of the heart machine, acting as the mediator between the head and the hands of society.

23:25 Frank: And our novel ends with Maria and Frieder united. The two represent the possible alliance between the elite and the working class. All right, Elizabeth Dallas, now let's take a final break and then we'll head into our last segment where I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or perhaps a quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back. Welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. Elizabeth, Dallas, before our break, we ended our story and now I'd like to have the two of you share perhaps a moment or a character or a quote that, as I said, we just haven't had a chance to get to yet. Elizabeth, do you have something you want to share?

24:10 Elizabeth: Yeah, I was curious how you two felt about the ending because we didn't mention this before but Joe's hair turns completely white at the end after he's witnessing all the chaos and witnessing his son almost die and everything. And I think the shock of his son almost dying is what makes his hair turn white and makes him realize that he's in the wrong because he always loved his son. So my question though is, does it seem unrealistic that someone like that would change so quickly and suddenly be a good person and suddenly feel sorry for everything they did? I find it a little unlikely.

24:57 Frank: Well, of course, we can't really bring realism into this particular novel, but I would probably argue with you, Elizabeth, in the sense that it's maybe not so much seeing his son almost lose his life as seeing the chaos that has now been created. And his dream, his Metropolis, is being destroyed before his eyes, mostly because of something that he did or pushed upon Rotwang and the others. So, I do get that he loves his son, but I'm wondering if maybe he loves Metropolis.

25:31 Elizabeth: Gotcha.

25:32 Frank: a little more, although we do get the reconciliation at the end. The hands and the head do come together with the heart. So he realizes perhaps the, oh gosh, I can't think of a good word, the terribleness of his actions. And I think that's perhaps what's weighing on him even more than how close he came to losing his son. Dallas, you got a take?

25:51 Dallas: Yeah, I do. Actually, I wrote down a quote that I think might sum up how Joe was feeling at the end of that, as I think you're right that he definitely saw the error of his ways a little bit. And this quote says, from the heights of the new tower of Babel, I could not distinguish it. And in the night of lunacy in which I perceived it for the first time, it was so distorted in its own horror that it no more resembled itself. So I feel like he was seeing everything in a new light.

26:22 Frank: the reality of the worker's city has now become the reality of all of Metropolis. So I think that is what's mostly troubling Joe is that he now realized he's destroyed his own invention or his own creation, perhaps that's a better word, creation, in order to prevent some sort of rebellion that we are not really sure was ever gonna occur. And if it was going to occur, it seemed to me it was going to be more of a peaceful rebellion, sort of a walkout, strikeout versus armed rebellion.

26:59 Elizabeth: Right. And my question, too, is why did he tell Grott to open the gates and let them into the machine?

27:08 Frank: I think that's still bad, Jo. And he wanted the people to use force so that then he would be justified in using force against them.

27:16 Elizabeth: But he didn't realize how out of hand everything would get.

27:18 Frank: Exactly. I mean, again, the city is literally destroyed, right? Flooded, machines dead. It's wet, people are dead. So I think it gets out of hand for what he wanted. He wanted to quell what he thought was a rebellion because of the maps that were found in the one dead worker's pockets. He ended up quelling much more than just a rebellion.

27:43 Elizabeth: And because Robot Maria was leading the violent riot, basically creating a mob, versus real Maria speaking, you know, preaching and speaking peace and all of that sort of thing.

27:57 Frank: Exactly. And the Robot Maria was doing exactly what she was programmed to do. Rotwang wanted her to create chaos, create the riots, and also kill Frieder. which we don't get, which doesn't occur because of course the mob eventually realizes it's a fake robot, it's a fake Maria, it's a robot. So yeah, I think that's part of what's going on. But I think he does come to Jesus moment at the end there, if that's the right way to say it, come to the Tower of Babel moment, because it does get out of hand, as most of these kinds of things tend to do.

28:36 Dallas: I think that there's also an argument for him finding a soft spot within him and finding love, because we didn't talk about, he had a few conversations with his mother, and she really played to his more tender sides, I think, and he reminded him of his strong love for Hel, and he's seeing that again with his own son and his love for Maria. I think there definitely is an argument to be made that he was a bit more empathetic to the situation going on because he was remembering his own strong love. So I could see an argument for his hair turning white.

29:18 Frank: And I think that comes back to Elizabeth's original question as to what causes Joe to have this change. And I guess I was leaning towards his seeing the chaos. But Dallas, now that you remind me of these conversations that Joe had with his mother about hell, I do think now that Dallas has reminded me, I do come a little closer to you, Elizabeth, in that it's the feelings for his son that also helps in this awakening, a word we used earlier on with Frieder, and this reconciliation that takes place.

29:52 Elizabeth: I wanted to bring up, now that Dallas had brought up Joe's mother, I also wanted to talk about that. So Joe's mother is paralyzed. Basically, she had some sort of shock at all the machinery that Joe had built. She very much disagrees with the work that he's done and the way that he's sort of making the lower classes toil so rigorously for all of these machines that he's got. This caused her to actually collapse at one point and she ended up being half paralyzed. And he's forcing her to live in the Tower of Babel even though she wants nothing to do with him. But he comes to her one day to ask her for advice because he's afraid of losing Frieder. And she really just has no patience for him. And she also blames his wife Hal's death on him. And Joe doesn't even deny it. I think the quote is, let me find, oh, Joe says, you have made it clear to me, mother, often and cruelly, you have said I had poured boiling wine into a crystal, then the most beautiful of glass must crack. But I do not repent it, Mother." So even though his wife, who also I don't think was a fan of all that was going on here, even though he caused her death, even that didn't sway him. He still believed he was in the right at that point.

31:23 Frank: Right, it cost him the love of his mother. It cost him the love of his wife. It's come darn close to costing him the love of his son. So it's taken a toll. This lifestyle choice that he's made has taken a toll. And again, I think this all plays into your original question about Joe and his transformation, his awakening, whatever word we choose to use. He is now getting flooded with these other memories and he's realizing I built an amazing machine, but it's a machine. It's not giving me the love that my mother gave me, that my wife gave me, or that I would like to have with my son. And I think for me, that's what I would like to focus on in this novel, is I'm a lot older than both you readers, and I constantly, especially being in a school, have to think about the impact of technology on our students, on our lifestyles. It's an amazing tool when used correctly as a tool, but these technological advances that we're experiencing now can also be used for bad, to oppress people, to control people, to keep track of people. So I think right now, today, we're having this discussion 100 years after this novel, how far do we go with technology? If we use it as a tool, use it correctly, it's fantastic. Spell check is a great thing. I love spell check. Well, AI is considered problematic at this point, but if used correctly, AI can be a tool. I would argue we can't condemn the tools. We have to teach the users of these tools how to use these tools correctly. My students should be able to use spellcheck correctly. They eventually should be able to use AI correctly. Right now, we're still struggling to find that proper medium.

33:11 Elizabeth: Yeah, exactly. That's what I've been saying to a lot of people. I mean, AI and most technology in general is a tool that can be used for good or evil. So you just have to use it for good.

33:24 Frank: Do you have something more to share?

33:25 Dallas: I think this was a powerful quote, whatever man soweth, that shall he reap. I feel like that's a common theme throughout the whole book. I don't know if that's from the Bible. It is. Okay. That's a very recurring theme for, I think, a lot of our characters through the novel and rings true from beginning to end.

33:44 Frank: Very good. All right, readers, I want to thank you both very much for coming in and having this conversation with me. You've been listening to Novel Conversations. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation. Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find us on Instagram at Novel Conversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and in anything else we've got in the works. I want to give special thanks to our readers today, Elizabeth Flood and Dallas Stark. Our sound designer and producer is Noah Foutz, and Gray Sienna Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Brigid Coyne and Joan Andrews. I'm Frank Lavallo. Thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation all your own.