00:08 Frank: Hello, and welcome to Novel Conversations, a podcast about the world's greatest stories. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo. And for each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book. And together, we summarize the story for you. We introduce you to the characters, we tell you what happens to them, and we read from the book along the way. So if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place. This episode's conversation is about the novel The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Katie Porcile and Gregory James. Katie, Gregory, welcome. Thanks for having me. Glad to have you both here for this conversation. Before we get started, let me give an introduction to our novel. I was going to say a quick introduction, but you know that's not going to happen. Published in 1937, The Hobbit is a fantasy novel by J.R.R. Tolkien. The novel introduced Tolkien's rich imagined world of Middle Earth and served as a prologue to his masterpiece, The Lord of the Rings. Its opening line, quote, in a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit, unquote, is one of the best known opening lines in modern literature. And although it stemmed from stories later published in The Silmarillion, The Hobbit was the outgrowth of bedtime stories that he told to his children, improvising night after night. Those origins are evident in the manner of narration which is, at times, very much like a children's story. Its style is extremely playful and conversational, with frequent asides and jokes directed at the audience. So Katie, Hobbits?

01:35 Katie: Hobbits, the narrator explains, are little people, roughly half the size of humans, with thick hair on their feet, round bellies, and a love of good food, comfort, and security.

01:47 Frank: Am I a hobbit? I was going to say, just like me.

01:50 Katie: They traditionally live in holes in the ground. The holes are not dank and smelly, but comfortable, cozy, underground dwellings with all the amenities of their above-ground counterparts. The hole occupied by a hobbit, known as Bilbo Baggins, is called Bag End. It is quite a pleasant dwelling with comfortable furniture and a well-stocked kitchen.

02:12 Frank: And Gregory Bilbo Baggins' ancestry is somewhat knowable by hobbit standards.

02:17 Gregory: His father was from the well-to-do conventional Baggins family, but his mother was from the Tooks, a wealthy but eccentric family infamous for their un-hobbit-like tendency to go on adventures. Despite his Took blood, however, Bilbo prefers to stay at home and live a quiet life.

02:33 Frank: You know, I think there's a line in our novel about how an ancestor of the Tuks invented the game of golf when a goblin's head that he had chopped off in battle rolled into a hole. But anyway, Bilbo Baggins lives a simple life with his fellow hobbits in the Shire until the wizard Gandalf arrives to convince him to join a group of dwarfs on a quest.

02:53 Katie: On the day the story begins, Bilbo is enjoying a pipe outside his front door when an old man with a long cloak and a staff arrives. Bilbo recognizes him as the wizard Gandalf, who has created spectacular firework displays on holidays in Hobbiton, but Bilbo still looks at the old wizard with a suspicious eye.

03:15 Gregory: When Gandalf asks if Bilbo would be interested in going on an adventure, Bilbo declines and quickly excuses himself. He invites the wizard to come over for tea sometime, but only so as not to seem rude. In reality, he wants nothing to do with Gandalf and his adventures. So when the doorbell rings the next afternoon, Bilbo assumes it's Gandalf.

03:35 Katie: To his surprise, a dwarf named Dwalin pushes past him and promptly sits down to eat. Soon, other dwarves begin to arrive and, as Bilbo's neat little home becomes crowded with dwarves, Bilbo becomes increasingly confused and annoyed. Very annoyed. At last, Gandalf arrives with the head dwarf, Thorin. The thirteen dwarves and the wizard nearly clean out Bilbo's pantry before finally settling down to discuss their business.

04:04 Gregory: It soon becomes clear that Gandalf has volunteered Bilbo to be a burglar for the dwarves on their adventure. The hobbit protests and the dwarves grumble that the soft little hobbit does not seem suited to their adventure. Gandalf, however, is certain that Bilbo is useful and insists that there is more to the hobbit than meets the eye.

04:22 Katie: The wizard then brings out an old map of a great mountain and points to a mysterious secret entrance, a door to which Thorin holds the key. Bilbo demands some clarification about the point of the whole expedition. Thorin explains that his grandfather, Thror, mined the mountain shown on the map and discovered a wealth of gold and jewels.

04:44 Gregory: Thror then became king under the mountain, but his fantastic treasure attracted unwanted attention. Before long, the dragon Smaug came and killed or scattered all of Thror's people. The dragon has been guarding the treasure ever since. Thorin and the dwarves are out to reclaim their rightful inheritance.

05:02 Katie: Bilbo suspects that the dwarves want him to play a part in slaying the dragon. Although his Baggins side would like nothing better than to sit at home with his pipe, the Took influence in him fuels his curiosity about the adventure, and he is reluctantly excited by the tale of dragons and treasures and great battles. After looking at the map and discussing the adventure with the company, The hobbit makes up beds for all his guests and then spends the night in troubled dreams.

05:33 Gregory: Bilbo wakes up rather late the morning after Gandalf's visit. He's surprised and a little relieved to see that the dwarves have left without him. He's just sitting down to a quiet breakfast. His second breakfast. When Gandalf enters and rushes him off to the Green Dragon Inn in Bywater, where Thorin and the rest of the dwarves have been waiting to begin their journey.

05:54 Katie: As they head east on the main road, Bilbo sulks at having to leave without finishing his second breakfast or making proper preparations. By the time dusk approaches, the whole company is tired, hungry, ready to camp, and annoyed at Gandalf's mysterious disappearance earlier that day.

06:13 Gregory: Suddenly, they see what looks like the light of a fire in the distance. They move closer to investigate it, and Bilbo is sent ahead in his first official task as burglar. As he approaches a clearing in the woods, Bilbo sees three huge trolls sitting around a fire eating mutton.

06:29 Katie: Bilbo tries to make off with one of the trolls' money purses, but they hear the noise and grab him. Trolls will eat just about anything, but they are also short-tempered and dull-witted. They proceed to fight about how to cook Bilbo.

06:48 Gregory: Oh, I hope not. Well, yeah, anything. Anyway. The commotion attracts the dwarves, who come to the clearing one at a time. The trolls stop fighting just long enough to hide in the trees and throw a sack over each approaching dwarf. Soon they have everyone tied up except Bilbo, whom they've forgotten.

07:05 Katie: The trolls decide to cook the dwarves immediately, but then a voice, which sounds like one of the trolls, starts an argument and the three trolls start fighting again. This fighting goes on for quite some time, until the trolls notice that it is almost dawn. The sun peaks over the horizon and the trolls all freeze. Sunlight turns trolls into stone.

07:28 Gregory: Gandalf then steps triumphantly into the clearing. He had been throwing his voice to keep the trolls arguing until morning. He and Bilbo release the dwarves, who are shaken but otherwise unharmed. Searching nearby, they find the trolls' cave and a number of well-wrought weapons. which they take as payment for their pains.

08:02 Frank: which also features a group's one-by-one confrontation with a troll. Tolkien also injects some modern humor into the story by giving the trolls Cockney accents, the dialect of lower-class Londoners. Gregory, will you read their line for us?

08:16 Gregory: Thank you.

08:23 Katie: As the company sets off the next morning, Gandalf explains that he has checked the road ahead up to the last safe stop along the way. This stop is Rivendell, a city of elves located just beyond the edge of the wild, near the foothills of the Misty Mountains, which the company will have to pass. During their stay, they meet Elrond, the chief elf who is, quote, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.

08:55 Frank: Elrond can interpret the ancient runes or markings found on the company's new weapons and on Thorin's map of the mountain. The swords taken from the trolls, he tells them, are renowned goblin killers from the great wars between the elves and the goblins. Gandalf's sword is called Glamdring, and Thorin's is named Orcrist.

09:13 Gregory: On Thorin's map, Elrond is able to read moon letters, writing visible only in the light of the moon in the proper phase. On Thorin's map, Elrond is able to read moon letters, writing visible only in the light of the moon in a proper phase, that describe how to find the secret entrance on the Lonely Mountain. Though they are puzzled by the message, the group is in high spirits when they depart from Rivendell.

09:36 Katie: Bilbo and company advance upon the misty mountains. The climb is long and treacherous. A violent thunderstorm breaks suddenly, forcing them to find shelter. Luckily, two of the dwarves, Feely and Keely, find a cave in the side of the mountain. They bring in the ponies and make camp for the night.

09:55 Gregory: In the middle of the night, Bilbo wakes with a start, just in time to see the ponies get dragged into an enormous crack that has opened in the cave wall. He yells, and out of the crack jump dozens of goblins, who tie up and carry off each member of the company except Gandalf, who was forewarned by Bilbo's yell.

10:14 Frank: OK, readers, with that start, let's take a break here. And when we come back, we'll talk about what happens to the dwarves after they are attacked and captured by the goblins. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back. Welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo, and today I'm having a conversation about the novel The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien. All right, readers, when we left, the dwarves were surprised and captured by goblins. Katie, you want to continue our story?

10:49 Katie: Sure thing. The goblins carry the dwarves and the hobbit down into the mountain to a huge chamber where the great goblin sits. He demands to know what the travelers are doing in his mountain. Thorin tries to explain about the storm, but one of the goblins brings forth the sword that Thorin took from the trolls, which he was carrying when captured. This sword, the orcrist, the goblin cleaver, is well known among the goblins.

11:16 Gregory: The goblins go into a rage, and the Great Goblin lunges at Thorin to eat him. Suddenly, the torches lighting the cavern go out, and the great fire in the middle of the chamber throws its sparks onto the goblins. In the darkness and confusion, a great sword flashes and strikes down the Great Goblin, and a voice guides the captives out of the cavern.

11:36 Katie: It is Gandalf. He leads the dwarves through the passage and deeper into the mountain. The goblins follow quickly after them, and one of the goblins catches up to the dwarf, Dory, who has been carrying Bilbo on his back. Bilbo falls off, strikes his head on the ground, and loses consciousness.

11:55 Gregory: When Bilbo regains consciousness, he can see nothing in the darkness. Feeling around on the floor, he happens to come across a ring, which he puts in his pocket. He has no idea where the rest of the company is or in which direction the exit lies. Picking the path he feels he had been traveling with the dwarves, he soon comes across an underground lake.

12:15 Frank: There, he discovers a strange creature named Gollum. When Gollum sees Bilbo prowling around, obviously lost, he's interested and a bit hungry, so he approaches the hobbit. Bilbo brandishes his sword when he hears Gollum's hissing voice.

12:29 Gregory: Gollum does not wish to contend with the sword, so he proposes a riddle game. If Gollum's riddle stumps Bilbo, he will eat Bilbo. But if Bilbo's stumps Gollum, Gollum will show Bilbo the way out of the mountain. Bilbo has no choice but to agree, and they begin asking each other riddles.

12:46 Katie: And in the end, Bilbo wins through a bit of trickery. Referring to the ring he had found, he asks, what have I got in my pocket?

12:55 Frank: That's not a riddle.

12:57 Katie: And Gollum cannot guess the right answer. Gollum, however, does not intend to let his meal get away so easily. He goes to his island in the middle of the lake to get his precious, a golden ring that makes its wearer invisible, the very ring that Bilbo had found.

13:15 Gregory: Unable to find the ring, Gollum suspects the hobbit of stealing it and runs at him in a rage. Through sheer luck, Bilbo happens to slip on the ring and Gollum runs right past him. Realizing the ring's power, Bilbo follows Gollum, who heads toward the exit, thinking that Bilbo is ahead of him. When Gollum gets near the exit, he stops because there are goblins crowded around it. Bilbo leaps over him, runs past the goblins unnoticed thanks to the ring, and manages to squeeze through the door into the freedom and fresh air.

13:44 Katie: Fleeing from the goblins, and still invisible, Bilbo looks back and realizes that he has made it to the other side of the Misty Mountains. The tunnels have taken him all the way through the range. Walking along, he stumbles upon Gandalf and the dwarves, who have just been wondering whether they should leave without him. The Hobbit slips off the ring and surprises them, and then explains how he made his way out of the mountain. However, he refrains from mentioning his discovery of the magic ring and the role it played in his escape from Gollum and the goblins.

14:19 Frank: In the history of Middle-earth, this discovery of the ring is the most important event in the novel. Though neither Bilbo nor Gollum are aware of it, the ring is in fact an object of awesome power. Created by the dark lord Sauron, who appears in The Hobbit as the necromancer of Mirkwood, the ring is central to Sauron's attempt to conquer and corrupt the world. The ring is pivotal to the plot of The Lord of the Rings. In The Hobbit, its greater importance is really only hinted at.

14:45 Gregory: Gandalf implores the company to get moving again, since only the sunlight is keeping the goblins from coming after them. The group is a bit north of where they had planned to be, and they have difficult country to cross. Evening comes as they pass through a grove of trees. Suddenly, they hear the howling of wolves and barely have time to scurry up into the trees before the wolves descend upon them.

15:06 Katie: The beasts are actually wolf-like creatures called wargs. The wargs are allies of the goblins and they quickly notify the goblins of the situation. The goblins arrive and light fires under the trees in which Gandalf, the dwarves, and Bilbo are hiding. Gandalf prepares to attack the goblins, hoping to kill as many as he can before they kill him.

15:29 Gregory: Luckily for the company, the Lord of the Eagles has seen the commotion from his roost high up in the mountains. With a number of other eagles, he swoops down, picks up the marooned travelers, and flies them to safety. The eagles are friends of Gandalf's and enemies of the goblins. They are happy to provide food and rest for the weary travelers, who then continue their journey.

15:50 Katie: And once again, Gandalf disappoints the company by announcing that he must leave. He says, however, that he will stay around long enough to help them find food and ponies so that they can make their way on their own through Mirkwood, the last great obstacle before the Lonely Mountain. He leads them to the house of Beorn, Beorn the Berserker.

16:10 Gregory: Beorn is a half-man, half-bear creature who has a great wooden house in the middle of the woods outside Mirkwood. Gandalf takes the dwarves to Beorn's house a few at a time so as not to startle him. He tells Beorn the story of their adventure in the mountain. Gandalf's story amuses Beorn greatly because he despises goblins who are enemies of nature.

16:31 Katie: Beorn offers the company much-needed food and lodging. He also does some scouting and finds that the wargs and goblins have put together an attack party in order to find the dwarves and wizard that killed their leader, the Great Goblin. To evade this attack party, Beorn recommends that the group take the northern pass, the Elf Path, through Mirkwood, which will bring them near to the Lonely Mountain.

16:56 Frank: This choice will throw the goblins off the company's trail and allow them to bypass the dangerous southern pass. The northern pass is not entirely safe either, so Beorn repeatedly warns his guests never to stray from the path.

17:09 Gregory: Beorn provides the group with food and ponies to carry them to the gate at the path's start. From there, however, they must return the ponies and travel on foot. When they reach the path, Gandalf also departs, wishing his friends the best and reminding them never to stray from the path. Dark things lurk in Mirkwood that even the Wizard does not know about. On that note, the Dwarves and the Hobbit plunge into the forest.

17:31 Frank: Darkness falls upon Bilbo and the Dwarves as they enter the bleak forest of Mirkwood. Strange eyes peer out at them from the trees. Soon, the group cannot tell night from day. Everyone can only think of getting out of the stuffy, ominous woods, but there seems to be no end in sight.

17:47 Katie: After a few days, they come to a stream that Beorn had warned them not to touch. They cross using a boat already moored there, but one dwarf, Bomber, falls in and is put into a sleep that lasts for days. The rest of the party is forced to carry him. Hungry, tired, and scared, they begin to despair.

18:09 Gregory: One night, they see a flicker of lights in the trees and, ignoring the warnings of Beorn and Gandalf, they leave the path and move toward the lights. They see elves sitting in a clearing around a fire, feasting and singing. However, the moment they burst into the clearing, the lights are snuffed out, and the dwarves and Bilbo can hardly find one another. The same thing happens twice more. On the last occasion, everyone becomes separated, unable to find one another in the darkness. Soon, Bilbo stops hearing voices and, exhausted, leans against a tree to sleep.

18:40 Katie: When Bilbo awakens, his legs are bound with sticky thread and an enormous spider is advancing towards him. Whipping out his sword, he slashes his legs free and slays the spider. Flush with victory, he gives his sword a name, Sting. He then goes in search of the dwarves.

18:58 Gregory: To his horror, he finds them all hanging from a tree, tied up in the webs of the many spiders that sit atop the branches. Bilbo whips a few stones at the spiders and then leads them away from the dwarves by yelling. He's wearing the ring all the while, so the spiders cannot find him.

19:14 Katie: Having led the spiders away, Bilbo slips back and cuts the dwarves free. The spiders soon return, and the dwarves, weak from the spiders' poison, can hardly fight them off. even with the aid of the invisible Bilbo. Just when the situation looks completely hopeless, the spiders suddenly retreat and the company realizes that they have retreated into one of the clearings used by elves. There, they rest to ponder their next course of action. A moment later, they realize with horror that Thorin is missing.

19:46 Gregory: Thorin was taken prisoner by the elves when he stepped into the clearing before the spider attack. The elves are wood elves, who are good, but suspicious of strangers. The Elven King questions Thorin about his journey. When Thorin refuses to say where the company is going, the elves throw him in the dungeon. But they feed him and are not cruel.

20:05 Katie: Soon after Bilbo and the rest of the dwarves escape the spiders, they are surrounded by a company of wood elves and brought blindfolded to the elven king's halls. Bilbo, still wearing his ring, remains undetected. The other dwarves are brought before the king and questioned. Like Thorin, they refuse to reveal their plan to reclaim the treasure from Smaug for fear that the elves will demand a share. Also like Thorin, the dwarves are thrown into the dungeon. Meanwhile, Bilbo, having followed the captured dwarves, walks invisibly through the halls, whispering to the dwarves in their cells and plotting an escape.

20:44 Frank: The narrator's description of the wood elves as good people, who have become maybe less wise, more suspicious, and more dangerous than their relatives, the high elves, illustrates how race and moral condition are closely linked in Tolkien's Middle-earth. We have not yet encountered any humans in The Hobbit, So it is still difficult to figure where humans fit within Tolkien's hierarchy of good and evil. From the passing references that we do here, we get the impression that humans are mortal, often unwise, out of accord with nature, and prone to feuding. Still, humans do not seem to be uniformly evil like the goblins and the wargs.

21:18 Gregory: The Wood Elves exchange goods with the men of Lake Town via barrels that are floated on a river that flows under the Elves' dwelling. Empty barrels are sent floating back down the river from a storeroom. In the storeroom, Bilbo catches a guardsman napping. He steals the guardsman's keys, frees the dwarves, and puts his plan into action. He helps pack each dwarf into an empty barrel just before the elves return and shove the barrels into the river. Then, still invisible, he hops onto an empty barrel. The trap doors open and the dwarves speed out along the river toward Lakedown.

21:53 Katie: The barrels, with one hobbit on top and 13 dwarves inside, flow down the river and out of Mirkwood Forest. Looking to the north, Bilbo sees the Lonely Mountain, the group's ultimate destination. For the time being, however, the river takes them toward Lake Town. Lake Town is a human city, built on Long Lake, south of the Lonely Mountain.

22:17 Gregory: At Lake Town, the barrels are brought to shore when boats from the town row out and cast ropes toward the floaters. And while the men are away, Bilbo frees his companions from the barrels. Everyone has survived, but they are cramped, wet, and hungry.

22:31 Katie: Thorin, filled with a new sense of purpose, strides proudly up to the town hall and declares to the master of Laketown that he, a descendant of the king under the mountain, has returned to claim his inheritance. The people of the town rejoice. They have all heard the stories of how gold flowed down the river when the king under the mountain reigned before Smaug came.

22:58 Gregory: They treat the dwarves, and even Bilbo, like kings. After a fortnight, the company is strong and eager again, though they still have no idea how to deal with the dragon. Thorin feels that they cannot wait any longer. He obtains boats, horses, and provisions from the master of Lake Town, and the company sets off up the river, running toward Lonely Mountain.

23:19 Frank: All right, let's take a break here. And when we come back, we'll travel with the company towards the Lonely Mountain. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Novel Conversations. Today, I'm having a conversation about The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien, and I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Katie Porcile and Gregory James. Readers, when we took our break, Bilbo and the Dwarves had refreshed themselves in Lake Town and started their journey towards the Lonely Mountain, Smaug the Dragon, and the Horde of Gold in the Mountain.

23:59 Katie: As they approach the foothills of the lonely mountain, the land turns bleak and barren. All greenery and other living foliage have been burnt away by smog. When they reach the foot of the mountain, Bilbo and three dwarves are sent to investigate the main entrance of the south side. The entrance looks far too dangerous. It is the gate that Smaug uses, so the company decides to search out the secret door described on their map, which is on the west side of the mountain.

24:29 Gregory: After hours of searching, Bilbo finally locates a narrow passage along a cliff that leads to a flat, smooth patch on the mountainside. Though the patch must be the door, the dwarves cannot find a way to open it, as they have forgotten the message that Elrond read from the map. The dwarves bang at the door with picks and axes, but to no avail. They grow discouraged.

24:51 Katie: One evening, Bilbo is sitting outside the door, lost in thought, when a thrush lands nearby and begins to knock a snail against a stone with its beak. Suddenly, the hobbit remembers the riddle on the map. He quickly gathers the other dwarves by the door, and they watch as the sun slowly sets.

25:10 Gregory: With the sun's last light, a single ray falls on a part of the door, and there a rock falls away to reveal a keyhole. Thorin quickly takes the key that came with the map and places it in the rock. When he turns it, the door's outlines appear. The dwarves and the hobbit push open the door and stare into the depths of the mountain before them.

25:31 Katie: The dark passage into the mountain stands open before the company. Thorin nominates Bilbo, the official burglar, to go inside to snoop. Bilbo enters, slips on his ring to make him invisible, and proceeds down the long, dark passage into Smaug's lair.

25:48 Gregory: There he sees the magnificent, terrible dragon asleep on piles of treasure. Smaug is red and gold, with fiery breath, sharp claws, and a hide as strong as diamond. Bilbo is horribly afraid, but he works up the nerve to take a single golden cup from one of the piles. He then rushes back up to the dwarves who marvel over the cup.

26:11 Frank: Smaug's character, the dragon, fuses elements from ancient epic literature with far more modern traits. Smaug has all the characteristics of legendary dragons, including an armor-like scaled hide, a love of treasure, and yes, the ability to breathe fire.

26:27 Katie: Bilbo's theft does not go unnoticed by Smaug, who takes careful account of his treasure. When he awakens, he is enraged to discover that the cup is missing. He flies around the mountain, breathing blasts of flame, and when he sees the company's ponies at the foot of the mountain, he chases the ponies down and devours them.

26:48 Gregory: Meanwhile, the dwarves and Bilbo huddle inside the secret passage, terrified. After a while, Smaug returns to his den and falls asleep. The hobbit works up the nerve to return to the dragon's lair, only to discover that the dragon has been feigning sleep. The terrible creature is wide awake and Smaug is waiting for Bilbo.

27:06 Katie: Although he cannot see Bilbo because of the ring, Smaug smells Bilbo and greets him mockingly. Bilbo is smart, though, and answers Smaug only in riddles which amuses the dragon enough to quell his anger… for a while. Cleverly, the hobbit flatters Smaug into displaying his thick-skinned underbelly, revealing an open patch in Smaug's scaly armor above his left breast.

27:32 Gregory: Bilbo rushes back up the passage and tells the dwarves all that he has learned while a thrush sits nearby and seems to listen. They then hear the roar of the dragon once more and shut the door to the passage just before an avalanche comes down upon it. They are trapped inside the mountain.

27:48 Katie: Smaug guesses from Bilbo's riddles that the company is somehow involved with the men of Laketown, so he flies there to wreak vengeance. The hobbit and dwarves cower in the dark passage until they can bear it no longer. They slowly creep down toward Smaug's chamber.

28:07 Gregory: When Bilbo determines that the beast is gone, the dwarves run out to the treasure in glee, remembering the prosperous times of old. Bilbo takes only a few things. One of them is the Arkenstone, an incomparable gem that Thorin seeks but which the Hobbit decides to keep for himself. Bilbo also finds a marvelous coat of mail made of mithril, a wonderfully strong, light metal that is scarcer and more valuable than silver or gold.

28:33 Frank: And here in Chapter 14, the narrator suspends telling the story of Bilbo and the Dwarfs at the mountain and focuses on Smaug as the dragon flies toward Laketown to wreck his vengeance. The people of Laketown see the dragon coming from a long way off and prepare archers in many buckets of water to douse the coming flames.

28:51 Katie: Their readiness is of little help, for smog flies over the town and lights every roof on fire. The men's arrows bounce harmlessly off the dragon's diamond-like hide. When most of the men have abandoned the city, one man, Bard, the captain of the archers, readies his last arrow. Suddenly, a thrush lands on his shoulder. The bird tells Bard to watch for the dragon's weak spot in the hollow of his left breast.

29:21 Gregory: Bard looks, sees the open patch, and lets fly his arrow. It plunges through the chink in the dragon's armor and buries itself in his heart. The beast comes crashing down, destroying the rest of Laketown as he dies. Bard manages to dive safely into the water. Some blame the dwarves for waking the dragon, but most assume that they too are dead. Then the lakemen remember the gold in the Lonely Mountain, and they think eagerly of how the wealth could rebuild their town.

29:49 Katie: News of Smaug's death spreads quickly. It reaches far and wide, bringing the Elven King and the army of elves, who stop at Laketown to lend aid. The humans and the elves then gather together in a single army and march toward the Lonely Mountain. Most of them expect to find a massive treasure left unattended.

30:09 Gregory: Meanwhile, the thrush returns to the company on the mountain. Finding that they cannot understand its speech, the thrush brings an old raven that can speak in the common tongue. This bird informs Bilbo and the dwarves of Smaug's death, and they rejoice.

30:23 Katie: However, the rejoicing is short-lived, as the Raven goes on to describe a huge army of humans and elves marching toward them, as well as the suffering of Laketown's people, who surely deserve some share of the massive treasure in the mountain. Thorin regards the treasure as his inheritance and plans to fight for it, however, regardless of what the people of Laketown have suffered.

30:47 Gregory: Under Thorin's orders, the company retreats to the mountain and fortifies it by building a formidable wall at the main gate. From there, they watch as Bard and representatives of the elves approach. Bard informs them that he killed Smaug and that the Lake Town, and that Lake Town has been destroyed. He asks that the dwarves be generous in sharing the wealth of the mountain, since they have benefited so much at the expense of the humans.

31:10 Frank: Thorin flatly refuses. He feels he owes the humans nothing since the gold belonged to his people originally. Bard gives Thorin some time to reconsider, but Thorin will not change his position. Bilbo, for his part, would gladly share the treasure. He's entirely discouraged by the whole turn of affairs. However, no dwarf questions Thorin, and the Hobbit has no say in the dwarf's decision.

31:33 Katie: As Thorin continues to search for the Arkenstone and the rest of the dwarves worry about the armies camping on their doorstep, Bilbo decides that he must take matters into his own hands. With the help of the Ring, he sneaks away from the mountain at night and into the camp of the Lakemen and the Wood Elves.

31:51 Gregory: There, he reveals himself and is brought before the leaders, Bard and the Elven King. They are suspicious of him, of course, but they relax when Bilbo reveals his secret weapon, the Arkenstone. He gives it freely to Bard to be used as a bargaining chip against Thorin. Bard and the Elven King are amazed that the Hobbit would risk inciting the anger of the Dwarves in order to prevent a war.

32:14 Katie: They ask him to stay in the camp for his safety, but Bilbo decides to return to the mountain. On his way out of camp, he runs into Gandalf, who pats him on the shoulder for his brave deeds. Newly hopeful, Bilbo sneaks back up to the mountain unnoticed.

32:30 Gregory: In the morning, Bard returns with two messengers to entreat Thorin to accept a peaceable agreement. When the dwarf again refuses, Bard reveals the Arkenstone, the one part of the treasure that Thorin values above all the rest. Thorin is crushed, and he turns to Bilbo in rage when the hobbit reveals that he is the one who gave Bard the treasure. Thorin is about to turn violent, but then one of the messengers throws off his cloak and reveals himself to be Gandalf.

32:57 Katie: The wizard commands Thorin to let Bilbo speak. The Hobbit claims that, in taking the Arkenstone, he only took his fair share of the treasure, as his contract as burglar had specified. Thorin has no choice but to agree, and he angrily offers to pay a fourteenth part of the treasure to regain the stone. The men and elves are satisfied with this.

33:20 Gregory: Thorin, however, secretly hopes that before they make the exchange, his relatives who are marching toward the battlefield with an army under the leadership of Dwarf King Dayne will be able to capture the stone by force.

33:33 Frank: The new Dwarf army threatens the elves and the men, and they are about to engage in battle when darkness takes over the sky from the west. Gandalf tells them that a new danger has come, an army of goblins and wargs who intend to take the treasure for themselves. The dwarves, elves, and humans are thus united against the goblins and the wargs in what will be called the Battle of the Five Armies.

33:55 Katie: The forces of good fight fiercely, but the goblins and wargs are just as fierce. Bilbo stays on the mountain, a bit removed from the fighting, and watches as the elves and dwarves first send the goblins fleeing, but then are forced to retreat from the vicious wargs. Thorin fights alongside the lake men as mightily as any.

34:16 Gregory: However, the goblins slowly gain ground, and Bilbo is forced to retreat to the elves' camp, which is nearly surrounded. The end seems close at hand when the hobbit's keen eyes spy something in the distant skies. The great eagles are flying toward the battlefield. At that moment, however, a stone falls from the mountain and hits Bilbo on the head, and he loses consciousness.

34:38 Katie: When Bilbo awakens, he is lying with a bad headache on the side of the mountain, but he is otherwise unharmed. From the camps below, he sees that his side has won the battle against the goblins and wargs. A man comes searching for Bilbo but cannot find him until the hobbit remembers to take off his magic ring.

34:58 Gregory: Bilbo is carried back to the camp where Gandalf waits and is delighted to see the Hobbit alive. However, there is sad business to attend to. Bilbo must say farewell to Thorin, who is mortally wounded. Thorin asks Bilbo's forgiveness for the harsh words spoken earlier.

35:14 Katie: Fili and Kili have also been killed, but the rest of the dwarves have survived. Gandalf describes the end of the battle for Bilbo. The eagles, watching the movement of the goblins, came just in time and turned the tide of the battle. Yet things still might have gone badly were it not for the sudden appearance of Beorn, in the shape of a bear, massive and enraged. This sent the rest of the goblins scattering, and now they are all either dead or in hiding.

35:44 Frank: And neither Beorn nor the eagles have any interest in the dwarves' gold, but as representatives of pure nature, they are the sworn enemies of corrupted nature, as represented by the goblins and the wargs.

35:55 Gregory: The dead are buried, and Dain is crowned the new king under the mountain. The dwarves are at peace with the lake men and the wood elves. Bard is the new master of Lake Town, and from his share of the treasure, he gives Bilbo a handsome sum. Soon it is time for the Hobbit to return home. He travels with Gandalf and Beorn, and they spend most of the harsh winter at Beorn's house, with much feasting and merriment.

36:18 Katie: In the spring, they continue on to Rivendell. Bilbo learns the reason Gandalf left the company near Mirkwood. He was fighting alongside the Council of Wizards to drive the Necromancer out of the forest.

36:30 Gregory: Finally, Bilbo and Gandalf travel the last long stretch of road back to the Hobbit lands. Approaching his home, Bilbo receives a nasty surprise. He has been presumed dead and the contents of his hill are being auctioned off.

36:44 Katie: Though he puts a stop to the auction and recovers most of his valuables, Bilbo is never again really accepted by the other hobbits. They view his adventuring with skepticism, and his return with gold and tales of dragons and war only confirms the hobbits' suspicion that Bilbo has gotten in over his head.

37:05 Gregory: This Bilbo doesn't mind. Now that he has a wizard, elves, and the occasional dwarf coming to visit him, he does not care much for the company of respectable hobbits. Most important, however, he still has his kettle, his pipe, and all the comforts of his home at Bag End.

37:22 Frank: At the end, the company's quest, which seemed tainted by the greed that motivated it, is redeemed by its wide-ranging and beneficial effects. Laketown is rebuilt stronger than before. Humans can once again live in Dale, no longer fearing the dragon's fire.

37:36 Katie: The goblins have been conquered, and thus, much of the wilderness of the East has been made safer for travelers.

37:43 Gregory: Moreover, the Great Council of Wizards have succeeded in driving the Necromancer out of southern Mirkwood.

37:49 Frank: And this is another incident that will have important ramifications in The Lord of the Rings, as the Dark Lord merely leaves Mirkwood to return to his ancient stronghold in the land of Mordor, where he attempts to conquer the world. And so ends The Hobbit, and so begins The Lord of the Rings. All right, readers, let's take a final break and then head into our last segment, where I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or perhaps a quote that we haven't had a chance to get to yet. You've been listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo. We'll be right back. Welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo, and today I'm having a conversation about The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien, and I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Katie Porcile and Gregory James. All right, Katie, Gregory, before our break, we ended our conversation about The Hobbit, and now I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or perhaps a quote that we haven't had a chance to get to yet. Katie, do you have something for us?

38:53 Katie: This is such a book about adventure and excitement and it's easy to get lost in the story but I've read it quite a few times and this time reading through it I was reflecting on Bilbo's growth as a character and I thought I was very proud of him at certain moments especially when he admitted that he had taken the Arkenstone. But one part that I really liked especially was when he was describing himself to Smaug the dragon and the way that he put his own actions into somewhat of riddles. When he sees that the dragon smells him and knows he's there, he's really afraid, but then he kind of musters up the courage to put himself out there bravely. I am the clue finder, the web cutter, the stinging fly. I was chosen for the lucky number. I am he that buries his friends alive and drowns them and draws them alive again from the water. I came from the end of a bag, but no bag went over me. I am a friend of the bears and guest of the eagles. I am a ring winner and luck wearer. I am the barrel rider. That's better, said Smaug. Don't let your imagination run away with you.

40:07 Gregory: Well, I think that that's both, you know, a confidence builder and isn't it said that dragons can lure you into revealing too much about you. You get lost in your own thoughts and then you show your weak spot. I believe that's how they explain dragons are very clever. He starts speaking in riddles because he doesn't want to get caught in the madness that you can get caught up in when speaking with a dragon. But what's great about that is I think he learns from his winning the ring with Gollum, where he just needs to flip the truth on its head of what's in my pocket to, I'm just going to say everything I've done in a fantastical way, you know, under a bag. He's from Bag End, but the bag didn't, you know. So all he's doing is just recounting his tale, but in a way that speaks like a riddle. It's not actually a riddle, just like what's in my pocket isn't a riddle. But it's, and that's why Smaug enjoys it so much. And again, Bilbo gets the upper hand by letting, making Smaug reveal his weak spot. So he becomes more clever than a dragon, which leads into your point of, how much more powerful can you be when you discover that you're more clever than a dragon. Right, yeah. Yeah, that's great. All right, and Gregory, you got something? Yeah, I think it's so funny that we get so many amazing visuals. I mean, the story is, I mean, there's a reason why it's so popular.

41:39 Frank: It seems almost written for the movie.

41:41 Gregory: Yeah, right, yeah. And you get to this epic battle of the five armies and you get a blackout scene.

41:50 Gregory: Yeah. He gets knocked in the head. And then we just get a quick recap later by Gandalf. I'm like, you could have spent a hundred pages explaining. Oh, it's just so funny to me. It's like, no, you were right there. You had it. You had it right there.

42:06 Gregory: I don't know if the film, I can't remember if the film actually goes into the fall. I'm sure it does.

42:12 Frank: Oh, without a doubt. I mean, that's why there's three parts to The Hobbit, which really maybe was overdone a little, but absolutely. And the scenes in the movie are widescreen. It doesn't even bring it home, but massive armies of goblins and wargs and dwarves and the eagles. Yeah, no, it's Peter Jackson, he did it well. He didn't skimp on the ending like Tolkien may have here.

42:43 Gregory: Right. Well, and he establishes that the story does not need to solely come from Bilbo's perspective when we jump to smile at Lake Town. So the fact that Bilbo gets knocked unconscious and we also blackout on the entire thing as the audience is just, it's like, oh man, just keep going.

43:01 Frank: Hey, you know, and looking back after knowing the Lord of the Rings, I mean, the ring is the main character of this whole book. There's no other book without that ring. And so, yeah, maybe he did skimp on some of the details.

43:17 Katie: I feel the same way about his journey home, where the narrator says, and he experienced many adventures, of course, on the way home because it's a dangerous path, but that's it.

43:30 Frank: And then he's home. The worst adventure is when he gets home and they're selling all his stuff. They're auctioning his house off. Recently, I just did Beowulf with my students at school. And of course, Beowulf, After he kills Grendel and Grendel's mommy, much later on in his kingship, he has to face a dragon who gets awoken because some burglar or some thief comes into his horde and takes, I forget exactly what it was in Beowulf, but I think it might've been a cup. Takes the cup, wakens the dragon. Now Beowulf, at the end of his kingship, and essentially at the end of his life, has to go and face this dragon and slay this dragon. And of course, as we know, Tolkien was incredibly familiar with these ancient myths and epics of Britain. And he wrote a book about Beowulf. He wrote books about Arthur. So he was fascinated by these myths that really lead to the nation of England and the literature of England. And so I just enjoyed the fact that he then brought Beowulf's dragon into his work and made him a fairly principled character within The Hobbit. Of course, he's not going to be in The Lord of the Rings.

44:45 Katie: Yeah, he's the big boss.

44:47 Frank: But I just love the fact that readers and writers continue to write about their readings, and then we get to read both the original Beowulf, and then we get Tolkien's impression of dragons, and I'm just a fan of writing and authors that can do that kind of work. Yeah, I love that. All right, Katie, Gregory, thank you both for coming in and having this conversation. This is a great way to end our conversation about the novel, The Hobbit. I want to thank you both again.

45:18 Gregory: Thank you, Frank. Thank you. It was great. Love the book.

45:20 Frank: I'm Frank Lavallo. You've been listening to Novel Conversations. I hope soon you find yourself in a novel conversation. Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find us on Instagram at Novel Conversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and in anything else we've got in the works. I want to give special thanks to our readers today, Katie Porcile and Gregory James. Our sound designer and producer is Noah Foutz, and Gray Sienna Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Brigid Coyne and Joan Andrews. I'm Frank Lavallo. Thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation all your own.