00:08 Frank: Hello, and welcome to Novel Conversations, a podcast about the world's greatest stories. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo. And for each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book. And together, we summarize the story for you. We introduce you to the characters, we tell you what happens to them, and we read from the book along the way. So if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place. This episode's conversation is about the novel, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, by James Joyce. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Megan Canty and Katie Porcile. Megan, Katie, welcome.
00:44 Katie: Thank you, Frank. Thanks.

00:45 Megan: Glad to be here, Frank.

00:47 Frank: I'm glad to have you both here for this conversation. Before we get started, let me give an introduction to today's novel. The first novel of Irish author James Joyce and published in 1916, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man is a groundbreaking work that follows the intellectual and emotional development of Stephen Daedalus. The novel explores what it means to become an artist. Stephen Dedalus' decision at the end of the novel to leave his family and friends behind and go into exile in order to become a writer suggests that Joyce sees the artist as a necessarily isolated, even lonely figure. Stephen is the hero of A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. And in fact, Joyce titled an early version of the novel, Stephen Hero. And listeners, the narrative style is distinctive, showcasing Joyce's innovative use of stream of consciousness, symbolism, and linguistic experimentation. The narrative is limited to Stephen's consciousness, a stream of his ever-changing thoughts. So his misperceptions, perhaps even misrepresentations, become part of the story. There is no narrator who explains the difference between Stephen's reality and objective reality. As an artist, Stephen resolves to live his life to the fullest and vows not to be constrained by the boundaries of his family, his nation, or his religion. The story is a semi-autobiographical coming-of-age narrative that captures Stephen's journey from childhood to adulthood, exploring his struggles with politics and religion, family expectations, and the pursuit of artistic expression. The novel is more, though, than just an autobiography, however, as Joyce is not merely recounting elements of his own boyhood, but also meditating on what it means to be a young man growing up in a confusing modern world. Set in Ireland during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the novel delves into the complexities of Irish identity, the influence of Catholicism, and the social and political challenges of the time. The novel reflects the turbulent period leading up to Irish independence in 1921. Joyce skillfully weaves in political and social themes, providing a lens through which readers can examine the intersections of personal and national identity. A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man remains a seminal work in modernist literature. Its exploration of individualism, artistic rebellion, and the tension between tradition and innovation continues to resonate in contemporary discussions of identity and self-discovery. So Megan, this, as I said, seminal work of modernist literature actually opens with a nursery story, or a fragment of a story.

03:13 Megan: Yes, it does. It opens with a passage that begins, quote, once upon a time, and a very good time it was, there was a moo cow coming down along the road. And this moo cow that was coming down along the road met a nice little boy named Baby Taku. Stephen's father, Simon Daedalus, tells his young son an old-fashioned children's story. Simon begins the story with the traditional once upon a time and uses babyish words like moo cow. With his childish yet vivid imagination, young Stephen identifies with the story's character. baby taku. The fact that the novel opens with a story emphasizes the importance of art, particularly literary art, in Joyce's world. The fact that the story deeply influences Stephen demonstrates that art is not mere empty entertainment, but it has the power to form people's identities and shape their thoughts. Stephen's reaction to the story is to imagine that he was a baby taku. He becomes conscious of his own existence at this young age by identifying with a character in a fictional story.

04:23 Frank: Right. One of the most notable features of Stephen's artistic development is his interest in the sounds of language. Stephen notices sounds even in the very first passages, when he is young enough to use baby words like moo-cow and tuck-hoo. This interest in sounds and wordplay reveals much about Joyce himself, who was one of the 20th century's most important innovators of language. Joyce was also a pioneer in psychological fiction and stream-of-consciousness technique. capturing the illogical associations made by the human mind and its odd jumps from topic to topic. A montage of perceptions in Stephen's first memories lack traditional realistic description, giving us mental impressions instead, as if thoughts are flowing directly onto the page.

05:05 Katie: And we see some of Stephen's impressions of early childhood, the cold bed sheets, the pleasant smell of his mother, the applause he receives from his governess, Dante, and his uncle Charles when he dances the hornpipe. These impressions come to us in this stream of consciousness narrative style that is so representative of Joyce. Our narrator is the voice of Stephen Dedalus, and the narrative is limited to Stephen's consciousness.

05:32 Frank: Right away, Joyce uses this narrative style to show, rather than tell, the reader how Stephen's young mind wanders from thought to thought. The sensory details that appear throughout the novel's first pages indicate that sound, smells, touch, sight, and taste are the defining structures that shape how Stephen perceives the world at this stage of his life. As he matures, he quickly moves beyond this sensory worldview, however, and begins to use memories of past experiences to help him make sense of his present life.

06:01 Megan: At one point, Stephen expresses his intention to marry the young girl, Eileen Vance, who lives next door. Eileen happens to be Protestant, however, and in response to his Catholic family's shock, Stephen crawls under the table. Stephen's mother assures the others that he will apologize, and Dante adds a threat that eagles will pull out Stephen's eyes if he does not apologize. Stephen turns these threatening words into a ditty in his mind. When Stephen is scolded, he uses art to soothe his soul, making a song out of his governess's gruesome threat. Pull out his eyes, apologize, he says to himself.

06:40 Frank: Here we are quickly introduced to another theme in the novel. Along with the artistic sensibility of Stephen, we have religion. Particularly, the conflict between Catholics and Protestants that plagued Ireland for generations. A conflict that also engulfs the politics of the time. Beyond the conventional struggles of navigating adolescence, Stephen continually finds himself trying to make sense of the three major structuring principles that characterize his life. Family, religion, and politics. The tensions within and among these elements become clearer to Stephen as he grows up, and he senses that living within these constructs will ultimately stunt his growth as an artist. As a result, Stephen's struggle to resist the pull of family, religion, and politics in favor of pursuing an artistic life emerges as the central conflict of the novel. And then the story shifts again. Stephen is now older.

07:30 Katie: The novel shifts to Stephen's experience at Klongos Woods College. It is a boarding school encompassing all grade levels. Klongos had been Joyce's boarding school in real life. Stephen watches older boys playing ball, but does not participate himself. The older boys are mildly antagonistic towards Stephen, asking his name and questioning what kind of name it is and asking what his father does. We see Stephen's alienation on the playground where he watches other boys playing ball but does not participate himself. Stephen's feeling of being a dissatisfied outsider develops steadily throughout the novel.

08:08 Megan: In class, Stephen is forced to compete in an academic contest in which the opposing teams wear badges with red or white roses, emblems of the noble York and Lancaster families from English history. Stephen does not perform well and wonders whether green roses are possible.

08:26 Katie: Joyce shows us art also has a political dimension. In the academic competition at Klongos, the teams take their emblems from the Wars of the Roses. Stephen, however, meditates on the red rose and the white rose only in terms of fact that, quote, those were beautiful colors to think of. It may seem that Stephen is ignoring politics and history, focusing only on the beauty. But this feeling of beauty actually brings Stephen back to history and politics. as he wonders whether a rose could possibly be green, the traditional color of Ireland. With this image of the green rose, Joyce may be slyly hinting at the possibility of an independent Irish state.

09:08 Megan: When the bell rings for night prayers, Stephen addresses God directly. The chaplain's clear and formulaic prayer contrasts with Stephen's own quietly murmured prayers for his family's well-being. Dreading the cold sheets, Stephen climbs into bed and shivers. In a feverish vision, he thinks of a big black dog with bright eyes and of a castle long ago.

09:32 Katie: Later, various people ask whether Stephen is sick, and we find out that his sickness is probably the result of having been pushed into the square ditch, or cesspool, the day before. Wells, the boy who pushed Stephen, is the ringleader of the school bullies.

09:49 Megan: Stephen's illness enables him to skip class as he recovers in the infirmary. Another student patient in the infirmary, Athe, asks Stephen riddles that he cannot solve. Stephen daydreams about returning home to recover. At the end of the section, Brother Michael announces the death of Parnell, the Irish patriot.

10:09 Frank: Parnell was the leader of the Irish nationalist movement seeking home rule for Ireland against Great Britain and the British Parliament. Though a Protestant, Parnell gained favor and support from Catholics also eager to separate themselves from Great Britain. The scene now shifts to the Daedalus house where Stephen has returned from boarding school for a Christmas vacation. The Daedalus family, Dante, Uncle Charles, and a friend of Mr. Daedalus named Mr. Casey are waiting for the food to be brought in.

10:36 Katie: Mr. Daedalus speaks approvingly of a mutual friend who, by confronting a priest directly, has criticized the involvement of the Catholic Church in Irish politics. Dante strongly disapproves, saying that it is not right for any Catholic to criticize the Church. This disagreement soon turns into an angry dispute. Dante quotes the Bible, saying that priests must always be respected. She feels that, as Catholics, it is their duty to follow orders from their priests and bishops without questioning them, even when those orders might be opposed to the Irish Patriots' nationalistic cause.

11:15 Megan: Stephen watches the dispute with bewilderment, not understanding why anyone would be against priests. He believes Dante is right, but remembers his father criticizing Dante because she used to be a nun. Mr. Casey tells a story of being accosted by an old Catholic woman who had degraded the name of Parnell and the name of the woman with whom Parnell had an adulterous affair. Casey had ended up spitting on the old woman.

11:42 Katie: This anecdote amuses the men but infuriates Dante, who cries that God and religion must come before everything else. Mr. Cayce responds that if Dante's words are true, then perhaps Ireland should not have God at all. Dante is enraged and leaves the table, and Mr. Cayce weeps for his dead political leader Parnell.

12:05 Megan: The Christmas Dinner Dispute introduces the political landscape of late 19th century Ireland into the novel. This is the first Christmas meal at which Stephen is allowed to sit at the grown-up table, a milestone in his path toward adulthood. The dispute that unfolds among Dante, Mr. Daedalus, and Mr. Cayce makes Stephen quickly realize, however, that adulthood is fraught with conflicts, doubts, and anger. The growing boy learns that politics is often such a charged subject that it can cause huge rifts, even within a single home.

12:38 Frank: Dante's tumultuous departure from the dinner table is the first in a pattern of incidents in which characters declare independence and break away from a group for political or ideological reasons. The political landscape of Ireland is deeply divided when the action of the novel occurs. Secularists, like Mr. Daedalus and Mr. Cayce, feel that religion is keeping Ireland from progress and independence, while the Orthodox, like Dante, feel that religion should take precedence in Irish culture. The secularists consider Parnell the savior of Ireland, but Parnell's shame at being caught in an extramarital affair tarnishes his political luster and earns him the church's condemnation. This condemnation on the part of the church mirrors Stephen's shame over expressing a desire to marry Eileen Vance, who is Protestant. All right, readers, with that start, let's take a break here. And when we come back, we'll continue our conversation about A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back. Welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo, and today I'm having a conversation about the novel, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man by James Joyce. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Megan Canty and Katie Porcile. When we left, Stephen was growing into adulthood, but learning that adulthood is fraught with conflicts, doubts, and anger.

14:09 Katie: Back at school after Christmas vacation, Stephen listens to a muted conversation between Wells and several other students. They are talking about a couple of boys who fled the school for wrongdoing and were later nabbed. Wells believes the boys stole wine from the school's sacristy. The other boys fall silent at the horror of this offense against God.

14:30 Megan: Athie gives a different account of the boys' crime. He says they were caught smugging or engaging in some sort of homosexual play. One boy, Fleming, complains that all the students will be punished for the wrongdoing of two. Fleming suggests that they could mount a rebellion against such an injustice.

14:50 Katie: The boys are summoned back into the classroom. After the writing lesson, Father Arnold begins the Latin lesson. Fleming is unable to answer a question and the Prefect of Studies, Father Dolan, pandies him, or lashes his hands. Afterward, the Prefect notices that Stephen is not working and demands to know why. Father Arnold tells Father Dolan that Stephen has been excused from classwork because his glasses are broken and he cannot see well. Stephen is telling the truth but the unbelieving prefect pandies him as well.

15:23 Megan: Later, the boys discuss the incident and urge Stephen to denounce the prefect to the rector. Stephen is reluctant. Finally, he summons the courage to march down the long corridor filled with pictures of saints and martyrs towards the rector's office. Stephen tells the rector what happened, and the rector says that he will speak to Father Dolan. When Stephen tells the other boys he has reported on Dolan to the rector, They hoist him over their heads as a hero.

15:51 Frank: You know, there's great symbolic importance in the scene in which Stephen's peers lift him up over their heads and acclaim him a hero. It suggests a heroic side of the young boy that we have not seen before. Stephen's summoning of the courage to denounce Father Dolan's injustice is a moral triumph. rather than a conventional heroic triumph in, say, sports. The role of hero does not necessarily come easy to Stephen, however. His schoolmates lift him up, quote, till he struggled to get free, suggesting that heroism is a burden associated with constraints or a lack of freedom.

16:23 Megan: Stephen spends the summer in his family's new house in Blackrock, a town near Dublin. He enjoys the company of his Uncle Charles, a lively old man who smokes horrible black twists of tobacco and allows the boy to take handfuls of fruit from a local vendor. Every morning, Stephen and Uncle Charles take a walk through the marketplace to the park, where Stephen meets Mike Flynn, a friend of his father's. Flynn tries to train Stephen to be a runner, but Stephen doubts whether he will ever be very successful. After training, Stephen goes to the chapel with Uncle Charles for morning prayers. Stephen respects his uncle's piety, but does not share it.

17:03 Katie: At home, Stephen reads Alexander Dumas' novel, The Count of Montecristo, and is deeply engrossed in its adventure and romance. Stephen imagines himself as the lover of Mercedes, the novel's heroine. Ashamed of his father's poor management of the family's finances, Stephen uses the imaginary adventures of Dumas' novel as an escape.

17:26 Megan: He befriends a young boy named Aubrey Mills, who becomes his constant companion in reenacting the adventures of The Count of Monte Cristo. Stephen feels that he is different from the other children he knows, and that he is in touch with a higher world. He imagines a future moment in which he will be transfigured by some magic revelation.

17:46 Katie: The Daedalus family begins to feel its financial troubles more acutely, and the moving men arrive to dismantle the house for a move to Dublin. In Dublin, Stephen enjoys more freedom than before, and his father is busy and Uncle Charles has grown senile. Stephen explores the city and wanders along the docks, still imagining himself as the Count of Monte Cristo.

18:09 Megan: These early sections of Chapter 2 are dominated by a sense of decline, which manifests itself in several different forms. Stephen sees the reliable constancy of boyhood give way to a new sense that people and places change, and very often get worse. Uncle Charles is a sympathetic, eccentric figure in the first section of the chapter, but by the second has become senile and can no longer go out with Stephen. Similarly, Mike Flynn had once been a great runner, but now looks laughable when he runs. Most important, the Daedalus family's financial situation falls from relative prosperity to near poverty.

18:50 Katie: Stephen senses in himself a new mood of bitterness as he criticizes his own foolish impulses, but finds himself unable to control them. At a birthday party for another child, Stephen feels no gaiety or fun and merely watches the other guests silently. Though he sings a song with the others, he enjoys feeling separate from the other children.

19:12 Megan: However, he is attracted to one of the girls, EC, at the party. They leave the party together and take the same train home, riding on different levels, but conversing for the entire ride. Stephen is attracted to the black stocking she wears and recalls Eileen Vance. He wonders whether EC wants him to touch her and kiss her, but he does nothing. Indeed, while he's staring, Stephen actually contemplates not the girl at the party, but his first crush, Eileen Vance, whom he had watched years before. Unlike that of a traditional romantic hero, Stephen's desire for women is jumbled and confusing.

19:49 Katie: Stephen finds romantic models in literature again when he uses a love verse by Lord Byron as a model for the poem he writes to E.C. the girl after whom he lusts at the birthday party. The intertwining of life and literature foreshadows the later way in which the artist and the young man of the title, one who creates art and another who lives life, complement and reinforce each other. He finds himself confusingly overwhelmed by a longing for romance. As summer comes to an end, Stephen is told that he will be going to a new school because his father is no longer able to afford Klongos.

20:28 Megan: Stephen, now a teenager, starts attending a prestigious day school called Belvedere College, a Jesuit school, where he grows to excel as a writer and as an actor. He is preparing for a performance in the play the school is putting on for Witsentide, the Christian feast of Pentecost. Stephen is to play the role of a farcical teacher, a role he has won because of his height and his serious manners. After watching various others get ready for the performance, he wanders outdoors, where his school friend, Heron, and Heron's friend, Wallace, greet him.

21:02 Katie: Herron encourages Stephen to imitate the school rector when performing the role of the stodgy teacher. Wallace and Herron also playfully mention that they saw Mr. Daedalus arrive at the theater with a young girl. Stephen imagines that the young girl is the one Stephen had flirted with earlier at the birthday party. Wallace and Herron playfully try to force Stephen to confess his dalliance with the girl.

21:27 Megan: Stephen suddenly recalls a dispute with Heron and two other students over the question of which English poet is the best. Stephen had named Byron, while the other student had said that Tennyson was obviously superior. Remembering this quarrel, Stephen reflects on his father's command for him to be a good gentleman and a good Catholic. Stephen is shaken from his reverie by a reminder that the curtain will go up soon. Stephen performs his role successfully. After the play, he does not stop to talk to his father, but goes walking in the town, highly agitated.

22:01 Katie: This parody of a teacher figure hints at the novel's underlying doubt about the validity of leading or instructing others. Stephen performs the role successfully and is amazed at how lifelike the play feels. The, quote, disjointed, lifeless thing had suddenly assumed a life of its own. It seemed now to play itself. The life Stephen discerns in the play makes him aware of the importance of acting as a metaphor for living. Art and life are, in a sense, switching places. While the artistic performance seems lifelike, life itself seems artificial.

22:39 Frank: Joyce's experimentation with the technique of stream of consciousness, capturing the processes and rhythms by which characters think, is especially evident in the sudden flashbacks of the play scene. Joyce narrates Heron's and Wallace's near-violent teasing about Stephen's flirtation with the girl in the audience. Then suddenly, without any warning, Joyce takes us back to Stephen's first year at Belvedere, when he was accused of heresy because of a mistake he made in an essay. This memory segues into another memory from a few nights after the first, when Steven was forced into a ridiculous schoolboy argument about the relative merits of Byron and Tennyson. When this argument is finished, the narration returns to the scene of the play in the present moment. Joyce wants us to feel unsettled and even a bit confused by these unannounced leaps from present to past. The time shifts represent the way Stephen's mind, and the human mind in general, impulsively make constant connections between experiences from the present and memories from the past.

23:34 Megan: We now see Stephen and his father sitting in a railway carriage bound for the city of Cork, where his father is auctioning off some property. Stephen is bored by his father's sentimental tales of old friends and annoyed by his drinking.

23:48 Katie: Going from bar to bar with Mr. Daedalus, Stephen is ashamed by his father's drinking and flirtation with the barmaids. Stephen grows increasingly alienated from his father, largely because of Mr. Daedalus' inability to connect with reality. He sees how much his father has lost touch with the world. When Stephen states his name for his own reassurance, saying, I am Stephen Daedalus, we sense that he feels the need to assert his own identity because his father's identity is rapidly crumbling.

24:19 Megan: Stephen and Mr. Daedalus enter the Bank of Ireland, leaving the rest of the family waiting outside so that Stephen can cash the cheque for £33 he has received as a literary prize. Mr. Daedalus muses patriotically about the fact that the Bank of Ireland is housed in the former Irish Parliament building. Outside, the family discusses where to have dinner, and Stephen invites them to a fancy restaurant. This initiates a great spending spree in which Stephen regals his family members with costly gifts treats and loans.

24:51 Katie: Stephen's prize money is soon depleted, leaving him upset by his foolishness. He had hoped that spending the money would bring the family together and appease some of their animosities, but he realizes it has not worked. He feels as alienated from his family as ever.

25:08 Frank: Okay readers, let's take another break here, and when we come back we'll continue our conversation about A Portrait of the Artist by a Young Man by James Joyce. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Novel Conversations. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, and today I'm having a conversation about A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man by James Joyce. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Megan Canty and Katie Portille. When we left, Stephen was growing up, moving from one college to another and gaining new experiences and new friends. And he's about to have another new experience. Stephen begins wandering the streets at night tormented by sexual cravings. One night, a young prostitute dressed in pink accosts him. Her name was Barbie. Stephen follows her to her room. He's reluctant to kiss her at first, but they eventually have sex. This is Stephen's first sexual experience.

26:09 Megan: In December, Stephen sits in his school classroom daydreaming about the nice stew of mutton, potatoes, and carrots he hopes to have later. He imagines that his belly is urging him to stuff himself. Stephen's thoughts soon turn to the wandering he will embark on at night and the variety of prostitutes who will proposition him. You know, like we all do, going from a nice, lovely meal of mutton to the prostitutes we're going to encounter.

26:36 Frank: Megan, speak for yourself.

26:38 Katie: On his wall, Stephen has a scroll testifying to his leadership of a society devoted to the Virgin Mary. Mary fascinates him, and with pleasure he reads a Latin passage dedicated to her, reveling in its music. At first, Stephen does not see his veneration of Mary as being at odds with his sinful habit of visiting prostitutes, but he gradually becomes more worried by his sins of the flesh.

27:05 Megan: He soon realizes that from the sin of lust, other sins, such as gluttony and greed, have emerged. The school rector announces a retreat in honor of the celebration of St. Francis Xavier, whom he praises as a great soldier of God. Stephen feels his soul wither at these words. Stephen does have trouble seeing the incompatibility of some of his actions with his religious beliefs, venerating Mary even as he daydreams about visiting prostitutes. However, when Stephen says that his soul withers as he hears the rector praise St. Francis Xavier, it is clear that Stephen knows the church would view his acts as sinful.

27:43 Frank: Stephen's relationship with women becomes even more complex in this section. He simultaneously displays a fervent devotion to the Virgin Mary and an obsession with visiting whores. In both cases, Stephen relates to women not as individuals, but as representatives of a type. Both Mary and the prostitutes are described more as myths or dreams than as any element of everyday life.

28:04 Katie: Stephen sits in the chapel as Father Arnold, appearing as a guest lecturer in Stephen's new school, reads a verse from the Book of Ecclesiastes. The sight of his former teacher reawakens Stephen's childhood memories of Klongos, especially the time he was thrown into the cesspool and his subsequent recuperation in the infirmary.

28:26 Megan: Father Arnold announces to the students that he is there to conduct a retreat, marking the feast day of St. Francis Xavier. patron saint of the college. The retreat, he explains, will not be simply a holiday from classes, but a withdrawal into inner contemplation of the soul and of the soul's need to heed the four last things, death, judgment, heaven, and hell. Father Arnold urges the boys to put aside all worldly thoughts and win the blessing of the soul's salvation.

28:57 Katie: Walking home in silence with his classmates, Stephen is aggrieved by the thought of the rich meal he has just eaten and thinks it has made him into a bestial and greasy creature. The next day, he falls even deeper into despair over the degraded state of his soul, suffering in agony and feeling a death chill. He imagines his weak and rotting body on its deathbed, unable to find the salvation it needs. Even worse, he pictures the day of judgment, when God will punish sinners with no hope of appeal or mercy.

29:30 Megan: Crossing the square, Stephen hears the laugh of a young girl. He thinks of Emma, pained by the thought that his filthy sexual escapades with prostitutes have soiled Emma's innocence. With feverish regret, he recalls all the horrors with whom he has committed sins of the flesh. When this fit of shame passes, Stephen feels unable to raise his soul from its abject powerlessness. God and the Holy Virgin seem too far away from him to help. until he imagines the Virgin reaching down to join his hands with Emma's in loving union.

30:05 Katie: When the service resumes, Fr. Arnold delivers a sermon about hell. Fr. Arnold describes the torments of hell in terrifying detail, beginning with the physical horrors. He graphically depicts the pestilential air of the place, spoiled by the stench of rotting bodies and the fires of hell that rage intensely and eternally. The blood and the brains of the sinner boil with no hope of relief as he lies in hell's lake of fire. Even worse, warns Father Arnall, is the horrid company that must be endured by the hell dweller, devils as well as other sinners.

30:42 Frank: In this section, we see Joyce borrowing from classic works of literature in innovative ways. Father Arnell's vision of hell, which leads to a turning point in young Stephen's life, draws heavily from Dante Alighieri's poem, Inferno, which tells the story of Dante's descent into hell. Inferno is a landmark in the genre of spiritual autobiography, the recounting of a soul's progression through righteousness and sinful states. A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man offers another such spiritual autobiography, as Joyce explores his own spiritual history through the character of Stephen Daedalus. Joyce places Stephen's glimpse of hell at the exact center of his novel, giving it a structure similar to that of Dante's Divine Comedy, of which Inferno is the first part. Inferno places the devil at the center of the earth, so that the pilgrim-seeking god must go downward before he ascends upward toward salvation.

31:31 Megan: Later, we find Stephen frequently quoting Aquinas and Aristotle. Yet despite these constant citations, no quotation marks are used in the novel, sometimes making it difficult to tell the difference between a character borrowing someone else's words and a character speaking in his or her own voice. And if I can just add an aside to that, normally something like that drives me crazy when there's not quotation marks, but in this novel it doesn't because I've always seen it as very in keeping with as we're watching Stephen grow up and change the way that we kind of try on, you know, different philosophies or different things, or we try to imitate people we admire. And so, you know, it's, he's not gonna, the quotation marks I think would kind of detract from that stream of consciousness where he's just inserting these quotes into his own, you know, thought process.

32:19 Frank: And making them his own, really.

32:20 Katie: Yes. Yeah. They're integrated. In this chapter, Stephen undergoes more than a mere vision or tour of hell. The agonies he suffers during the sermon seem closer to the experience of hell itself. He does not simply picture hell's flames in his mind's eye, but actually feels the flames on his body. Quote, his flesh shrank together as if it felt the approach of the ravenous tongues of flames. In addition, he doesn't just imagine the boiling brains described by the preacher, but actually senses that, quote, his brain was simmering and bubbling within the cracking tenement of his skull. Stephen's close identification with the subject of the sermon sets him far apart from his fellow students who later chat casually about it. This dissimilar reaction reiterates the fact that Stephen is a social outsider.

33:11 Megan: Stephen goes up to his room after dinner in order to, quote, be alone with his soul. He admits to himself the horror of all the sins he has committed and is amazed that God has not stricken him dead yet. Lying down, Stephen closes his eyes and has a fearful vision of a field covered in weeds and excrement. occupied by six ghoulish, goat-like creatures with gray skin. Swishing their tails menacingly, the creatures trace ever smaller circles around Steven, uttering incomprehensible words.

33:43 Frank: Springing awake from this nightmare, Stephen rushes frantically to open the window for some fresh air. He finds that the rain has stopped and the skies are full of promise. He prays to Jesus, weeping for his lost innocence. Walking through the streets that evening, Stephen knows he must confess. He asks an old woman where the nearest chapel is and goes to it immediately. He anxiously waits for his turn to enter the confessional.

34:05 Katie: When it's finally Stephen's turn, the priest asks how long it's been since his last confession, and Stephen replies that it has been eight months. He confesses that he has had sexual relations with a woman and that he is only 16. The priest offers forgiveness, and Stephen heads home feeling filled with grace. The next day, he finds himself at the altar with his classmates and receives the sacrament.

34:31 Megan: Stephen begins fervently to apply spiritual discipline to his own actions, in contrast to his passive status as a member of the audience listening to Father Arnold's sermon and attempting to understand it academically. Stephen imposes a new system of religious discipline upon himself that transforms his life. He prays every morning before a holy image. He divides his daily schedule into parts, that corresponds to particular spiritual functions. Stephen keeps rosary beads in his trouser pocket so that he can touch them as he walks, and he divides each rosary into three parts devoted to the three theological virtues.

35:12 Katie: The next day he finds himself at the altar with his classmates and receives the sacrament of communion. Reading books of devotional literature, Stephen learns about the three aspects of the Holy Trinity. Though he cannot understand the solemn mystery of the Trinity, he finds the mystery easier to accept than God's love for his soul. Gradually, however, Stephen comes to accept the fact that God loves him, and he begins to see the whole world as one vast expression of divine love. He is careful not to get carried away by his spiritual triumphs, and he pursues even the lowliest devotion carefully.

35:49 Frank: Among his sacrifices, Stephen avoids making eye contact with women and sniffs the most objectionable odors he can find in order to, quote, mortify his sense of smell. He never consciously changes positions in bed, but despite his attempts at self-discipline, He is periodically tempted by sin and bothered by sudden fits of impatience, as when his mother sneezes. Stephen comforts himself, however, with the knowledge that strong temptations prove that his fortress is holding tight against the devil's attacks. He does ask himself, though, whether he has corrected his life.

36:21 Megan: Stephen's rigorous program of spiritual self-discipline is impressive and demonstrates his extraordinary earnestness. The unbelievable asceticism that he willingly adopts demonstrates his strength of will and suggests his heroism. Like some of the early ascetics and hermits of the Christian church who lived in the desert and ate locusts, Stephen displays an astonishing ability to overcome his bodily longings and to affirm the superiority of the soul. In doing so, he proves his similarity to martyrs and saints.

36:55 Katie: Vacation has ended and Stephen is back in his Jesuit school, where he has been mysteriously summoned to a meeting with the director. The director asks Stephen whether he has ever felt he has a vocation and urges him to consider a life in the church. The director says that the priesthood is a great honor bestowed on a man and adds that it is a very serious decision to make.

37:18 Megan: At first, Stephen is intrigued by the thought of the priesthood, and pictures himself in the admired, respected role of the silent and serious priest carrying out his duties. But as he imagines the bland and ordered life awaiting him in the church, however, he begins to feel an unrest burning inside him. He walks back home from school and passes a shrine to the Virgin Mary, but feels surprisingly cold toward it.

37:43 Frank: Joyce suggests that a saint's life may not be desirable for Stephen. Joyce's style, which is richly detailed and concretely sensual in earlier sections of the novel, now becomes extremely dry and abstract and academic. This style corresponds with Stephen's psychological state. As Stephen becomes more aesthetic and self-depriving, Joyce's language loses its colorful adjectives and complex syntax. Stephen's question at the end of Chapter 4, Section 1, quote, I have amended my life, have I not? Emphasizes the fact that Joyce himself has amended his prose. Importantly, though Stephen explicitly acknowledges that his life has been changed, he does not say that it has necessarily improved. His heroic efforts to deprive himself are impressive, but do not necessarily make him a better person.

38:30 Katie: Stephen impatiently waits for his father and Tudor to return with news about the possibility of his admission into a university. Stephen feels that a great fate is in store for him. He sets off walking toward the sea, encountering a group of teacher friars on the way. He considers greeting them, but concludes that it is impossible to imagine them being generous towards him. He recites snatches of poetry and regards the light on the water. Stephen comes upon several of his schoolmates who are swimming and they jokingly greet him as they say his name in Greek.

39:04 Megan: Reflecting on the myth of Daedalus that his name evokes, Stephen ponders his similarity to that fabulous artificer who constructed wings with which he flew out of imprisonment. Steven is suddenly enraptured by this thought and feels that he will soon begin building a new soul that will allow him to rise above current miseries.

39:26 Frank: Katie, maybe we should briefly review the myth of Daedalus?

39:29 Katie: Yes. One of the primary sources on which Joyce draws in A Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man is Greek myth. The mythic aspect of the novel emerges clearly in this section with the reference to Daedalus. In Greek mythology, Daedalus was a renowned craftsman who built a pair of wings for himself and a pair for his son, Icarus, in an attempt to escape imprisonment on the island of Crete. In this novel, Stephen's view of himself changes when his friends address him with a Greek version of his name.

40:02 Megan: He suddenly begins to reflect on certain affinities between himself and that mythical, fabulous artificer, no longer defining himself through Christian doctrine by relating himself to Christ and Mary. Rather, Stephen turns to pagan sources and inspirations in his quest for self-definition. His name is significant, His first name alludes to the first Christian martyr, St. Stephen. His surname, however, alludes to a pagan character whose skill allows him to rise high above the world. Stephen begins to shift his emphasis from his first name to his last name. He dwells on the idea of Daedalus' flight-giving wings, a piece of artisan handicraft that symbolizes the individual's ability to create art and the possibility of transcending worldly woes. Much as Daedalus escaped prison, Stephen dreams of escaping the misery of his impoverished family and narrow, sad life.

41:01 Frank: To Stephen, the vision of his mythical namesake is not just a hint of his own fate, but a prophecy of it, a prediction that cannot be avoided. Stephen's mental image of, quote, a hawk-like man flying sunward above the sea, unquote, strikes him as, quote, a prophecy of the end he had been born to serve and had been following through the mists of childhood and boyhood. Daedalus is a symbol of the artist forging anew in his workshop out of the sluggish matter of the earth, a new, soaring, impalpable, and perishable being. This vision is not simply an image of his future, but of his childhood and boyhood as well. His vision reveals a hidden thread that connects Stephen's past, present, and future into one whole. Most important, perhaps, Stephen realizes that the art that he will forge is not merely a beautiful object, but an entire eternal existence. Through his art, Stephen creates an imperishable being, very much like a soul. He will not just create literature, he will create himself.

41:59 Katie: Stephen moves on to the university, where he develops a number of strong friendships, and is especially close with a young man named Clanley. In a series of conversations with his companions, Stephen works to formulate his theories about art.

42:14 Megan: Sitting on the steps of the university library, Stephen watches a flock of birds circling above and tries to identify their species. He muses on the idea of flight and on the fact that men have always tried to fly. His thoughts turn to lines from a Yeats play that has recently opened, lines that characterize swallows as symbols of freedom.

42:36 Katie: Leaving the library, Stephen walks with Cranley and Temple, who fall into an argument. Stephen's beloved Emma leaves the library and nods a greeting to Cranley, ignoring Stephen. Stephen feels hurt and jealous. Stephen sadly tells his friend that he feels he may soon have to leave the university and abandon his friends in order to pursue his artistic ambitions. Stephen says that he feels he must obey the dictum, quote, I will not serve, refusing any ideology that is imposed upon him from above, even that of friends and family. Cranley warns Stephen of the risk of extreme solitude, but Stephen does not reply. He refuses to join the Irish nationalist movement, rejects his Catholic faith, and opens himself up to the idea of living an isolated life.

43:28 Frank: It's at this point in the story that the narrative switches to a journal form composed of dated entries written by Stephen himself from a first-person perspective. Joyce's transition to journal entries at the end of the novel is a formal change that highlights Stephen's continuing search for his own voice. The journal entry form explores the problem of representing a person through words. Stephen records his scattered impressions of thoughts, perceptions, and events of each day. He tells of his conversation with Cranley about leaving the university. He distractedly muses on the fact that John the Baptist lived on locusts in the desert, and comments on his friend's lynch's pursuit of a hospital nurse. Stephen notes a conversation with his mother regarding the Virgin Mary, in which his mother accuses Stephen of reading too much and losing his faith. Stephen, however, says that he cannot repent.

44:16 Megan: Stephen speaks of a squabble with a fellow student and of attempting to read three reviews in the library. He records two dreams, one of viewing a long gallery filled with images of fabulous kings and another of meeting strange, mute creatures with phosphorescent faces. He mentions meeting his father, who asks him why he does not join a rowing club. In his entry dated April 15th, Stephen records meeting, quote, her, meaning Emma, on Grafton Street. Emma asks Stephen whether he is writing poems and why he no longer comes to the university. Stephen excitedly talks to her about his artistic plans.

44:57 Katie: Stephen's idea of femininity becomes more complex in this final section of chapter 5 when he finally confronts Emma and talks to her on Grafton Street. Stephen's relation to women throughout the novel has been largely conflicted and abstract to this point. This meeting with Emma, however, is concrete, placing Stephen himself in control. The conversation with Emma emphasizes the fact that women are no longer guiding Stephen, his mother no longer pushes him, the Virgin Mary no longer shows him the way, and prostitutes no longer seduce him.

45:33 Megan: Women are no longer in a superior or transcendent position in his life. Finally, in actually speaking with Emma face-to-face, Stephen shows that he has begun to conceive of women as fellow human beings rather than idealized creatures. He no longer needs to be mothered and guided, as his emotional, spiritual, and artistic development has given him this vision and confidence to show himself the way. Stephen ends his journal with a prayer to his old father Daedalus, whom he calls Old Artificer, to stand him in good stead.

46:10 Frank: And as our story ends, while Stephen is still dependent on his friends as listeners, he's also determined to create an independent existence, liberated from the expectations of friends and family. He becomes more and more determined to free himself from all limiting pressures, and eventually decides to leave Ireland to escape them. Like his namesake, the mythical Daedalus, Stephen hopes to build himself wings on which he can fly above all obstacles and achieve a life as an artist. And readers, that's how our novel, A Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man, ends. Let's take a final break now, and then we'll head into our last segment, where I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or a quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet. Listeners? Nope. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo. We'll be right back. Welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo, and today I'm having a conversation about A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man by James Joyce. Meg and Katie, before our break, we ended our story, and now I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or a quote, perhaps, that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet.

47:26 Katie: It's something that we've alluded to a few times. We talked about the episode itself and we've discussed how the writing changes or the verbiage changes and the descriptions and even his vocabulary are elevated as he grows older.

47:45 Frank: And then gets dry as he becomes an aesthetic?

47:47 Katie: Yes, exactly. But the conversation where he's at the dinner table, the Christmas dinner for the first time, is I think so relatable. I think as any child who overhears their parents talking and with all their grown-up relatives and blah, blah, blah, politics, blah, blah, blah, Parnell, blah, blah, blah, Catholic, blah, blah, blah, Protestant. It's just exactly what it's like to be a child at the Christmas dinner table. Thinking you're an adult and you can be a grown-up and sit with the adults and then just being bored out of your mind. I loved that moment.

48:22 Megan: Good one. Megan, do you have something? I think that, you know, so much of the novel is, you know, we've talked about chronicling Stephen, you know, growing up, going through changes, having these various, you know, epiphanies and kind of understanding his place in the world, what he wants for himself. And what I find kind of deepens the writing of that and the way that readers are able to understand it. And I think what makes it something that's appealed to readers for so long is the fact that James Joyce himself, you know, we know it's a very autobiographical work of fiction, but I find it interesting that it was one, you know, that he started, you know, initially and abandoned and came back to. And, you know, this novel, the final product, he was only able to write when he had left Ireland and was living abroad. And I just find it interesting that it's, you know, it kind of takes that separation from the things that defined us as a child or that were kind of defined for us before we're really able to achieve the distance we need to have the introspection or be able to really make sense of an experience. And I think that that really adds so much to the novel and to our understanding of Stephen is the fact that instead of writing this when Joyce was in the middle of it, it's later when he's gotten some perspective on it that he's able to write so beautifully and powerfully about it.

49:45 Frank: I think perspective is the absolute right word there. His perspective changes and grows as he changes and grows. Katie, Megan, both great insights. I want to thank you both for coming in and having this conversation with me today. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

49:59 Katie: Thanks for having us, Frank. Yeah, thank you so much for having us.

50:02 Frank: Absolutely. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation. Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find us on Instagram at Novel Conversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and in anything else we've got in the works. I want to give special thanks to our readers today, Katie Portile and Megan Canty. Our sound designer and producer is Noah Foutz, and Gray Sienna Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Brigid Coyne and Joan Andrews. I'm Frank Lavallo. Thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation all your own.