00:02 Frank: Hello, and welcome to Novel Conversations, a podcast about the world's greatest stories. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, and for each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book. And together, we summarize the story for you. We introduce you to the characters, we tell you what happens to them, and we read from the book along the way. So if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place. This episode's conversation is about the novel A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens, and I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Elizabeth Flood and Gregory James. Elizabeth, Gregory, welcome.

00:34 Gregory: Hey, thanks for having us.

00:35 Elizabeth: It's great to be here.

00:36 Frank: Glad to have you both here for this conversation. Before we get started, let me give a quick introduction to this episode's novel. A Tale of Two Cities is a historical novel published in 1859 by Charles Dickens. The novel is set in London and Paris before and during the French Revolution in the years of 1775 to 1792. With the French Revolution as a backdrop, it tells the story of the French doctor Alexandre Manet, his 18-year-long imprisonment in the Bastille in Paris, and his release to live in London with his daughter Lucie, whom he had never met. A Tale of Two Cities was published as a serial piece in weekly installments from April 20 to November 26, 1859. The novel has been adapted for film, television, radio, and the stage, and has continued to influence popular culture. Elizabeth, our novel is divided into three books with 45 total chapters, but it begins with a brief introductory chapter that starts with one of the most famous opening lines in English literature.

01:32 Elizabeth: It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. It was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness. It was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity. It was the season of light, it was the season of darkness. It was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair. We had everything before us, we had nothing before us. We were all going direct to heaven. We were all going direct the other way. In short, the period was so far like the present period that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only. Titled The Period, this first brief chapter establishes the era—the period in which the novel takes place—England and France in 1775. The age is marked by competing and contradictory attitudes—it was the best of times, it was the worst of times—but it resembles the present period in which Dickens writes.

02:41 Frank: All right, Gregory, that's how the novel opens, but how does our narrative start?

02:45 Gregory: It starts on a Friday night in late November of 1775. A mail coach wends its way from London to Dover. The journey proves so treacherous in the rain and mud that the three passengers must dismount from the carriage and hike alongside it as it climbs up a steep hill.

03:00 Elizabeth: Then, from out of the mists, a messenger on horseback appears and asks to speak to Jarvis Lorry of Tellson's Bank. The travelers react warily, fearing that they have come upon a highwayman or a robber. Mr. Lorry, however, recognizes the messenger's voice as that of Jerry Cruncher, the odd-job man at Tellson's Bank, and accepts his message. The note that Cruncher passes him reads, Wait at Dover for Mamsel. Laurie instructs him to return to Telson's with this reply, recalled to life. Confused and troubled by the blazing strange message, Jerry rides on to deliver it.

03:41 Gregory: Dozing, Laurie drifts in and out of dreams, most of which revolve around the workings of Telson's bank. Still there exists, quote, another current of impression that never ceases to run through his mind, end quote. The notion that he makes his way to dig someone out of a grave. He imagines a repetitive conversation with a specter, who tells Laurie that his body has lain buried nearly 18 years. Laurie informs his imaginary companion that he now has been recalled to life and asks him if he cares to live. He also asks cryptically, shall I show her to you? Will you come and see her? The ghost's reaction to this question varies. As he sometimes claims, he would die were he to see this woman too soon. At other times, he weeps and pleads to see her immediately.

04:28 Frank: And readers, these descriptions of darkness and secrets contribute to the gothic atmosphere of the novel's opening. Gothic literature, a genre that establishes an uneasy, mysterious mood through the use of remote, desolate settings, supernatural or macabre events, and violence, dominated much of the fiction from the late 18th century through the end of the 19th century. Such classics as Frankenstein by Mary Shelley and Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte, helped establish a strong tradition of Gothic themes in the British literature of this period. Jerry Cruncher's mysterious appearance during the treacherous nighttime journey, and Laurie's macabre visions of disinterring a body, harken back to the eerie and supernatural feel of A Tale of Two Cities' Gothic predecessors.

05:10 Gregory: And by the way, Gregory, who is the narrator? The narrator is anonymous, but can be thought of as Dickens himself. The narrator maintains a clear sympathy for the story's morally good characters.

05:20 Elizabeth: The next morning, Laurie descends from the coach at the Royal George Hotel in Dover. After shedding his travel clothes, he emerges as a well-dressed businessman of 60. That afternoon, a waiter announces that Lucy Manette has arrived from London. Laurie meets the short, slight, pretty figure, who has received word from the bank that some intelligence or discovery has been made. Quote, respecting the small property of my poor father, so long dead, end quote.

05:48 Gregory: Laurie relates the real reason that Tellson's has summoned Lucy to Paris. Her father, once a respected doctor, has been found alive. Your father, Laurie reports to her, has been taken to the house of an old servant in Paris, and we are going there. I to identify him if I can, you to restore him to life, love, duty, rest, comfort. Lucy goes into shock, and her lively and protective servant, Miss Pross, rushes in to attend her.

06:15 Frank: In typical Dickensian manner, this project of discovery happens bit by bit. Secrets emerge only very slowly. Although the horrible effects of Dr. Manette's incarceration become clear in the next few chapters, the reader doesn't learn the causes of these effects until the end of the novel.

06:31 Elizabeth: The setting shifts from Dover, England to St. Antoine, a poor suburb of Paris. A wine cask falls to the pavement in the street and everyone rushes to it. Men kneel and scoop up the wine that has pooled in the paving stones, while women sop up the liquid with handkerchiefs and wring them into the mouths of their babies. One man dips his finger into the muddy wine lees and scrawls the word blood on a wall.

06:55 Frank: And this scramble for the leaking wine remains one of the most remembered and frequently referenced passages in the novel. Although the French Revolution will not erupt for another at least 14 years, Broken Winecast conveys the suffering and rage that will lead the French peasantry to revolt. In clambering to feed on the dregs, the members of the mob stain themselves with wine. The liquid smears the peasant's hands, feet, and faces, foreshadowing the approaching chaos during which the blood of aristocrats and political dissidents will run as freely. The ominous scrawling of the word blood on the wall similarly prefigures the violence.

07:30 Gregory: The wine shop is owned by Monsieur Defarge, a bull-necked, martial-looking man of 30. His wife, Madame Defarge, sits solemnly behind the counter knitting, watchful of everything that goes on around her. She signals to her husband as he enters the wine shop, alerting him to the presence of an elderly gentleman and a young lady. Defarze eyes the strangers, their Lori and Lucy, but pretends not to notice them, speaking instead with three familiar customers, each of whom refers to the other two as Jacques, a codename that identifies themselves to one another as revolutionaries.

08:03 Frank: And actually, Gregory, Parisian revolutionaries first began addressing each other as Jacques during the Jacquerie, a 1358 peasant uprising against the French nobility. The nobles contemptuously referred to the peasants by the extremely common name of Jacques. in order to accentuate their inferiority and deny their individuality. The peasants adopted the name as a war name. For example, at the storming of the Bastille in Book II, Chapter 21, the Farge cries out, Work, comrades all, work! Work, Jacques 1, Jacques 2, Jacques 1000, Jacques 2000, Jacques 5 and 20,000. Work, Jacques, work!

08:41 Elizabeth: After Defarge directs the men to a chamber on the fifth floor and sends them out, Mr. Lorry approaches from the corner and begs a word with Defarge. The men have a brief conversation, and soon Defarge leads Lorry and Lucy up a steep, dangerous rise of stairs.

08:58 Gregory: Defarge opens a room door to reveal a white-haired man busily making shoes. When asked his name, he responds, 105 North Tower. Lucy approaches. Noticing her radiant golden hair, Manette opens a knot of rag that he wears around his neck, in which he keeps a strand of similarly golden curls.

09:16 Elizabeth: At first, Manette mistakes Lucy for his wife, and recalls that on the first day of his imprisonment, he begged to be allowed to keep these few stray hairs of his wife's as a means of escaping his circumstances in the spirit. Lucy delivers an impassioned speech, imploring her father to weep if her voice or her hair recalls a loved one whom he once knew.

09:38 Gregory: She hints to him of the home that awaits him and assures him that his agony is over. Manette collapses under a storm of emotion. Lucie urges that arrangements be made for his immediate departure for England. Fearing for Manette's health, Laurie protests, but Lucie insists that travel guarantees more safety than a continued stay in Paris. Defarge agrees and ushers the group into a coach.

10:01 Elizabeth: It is now 1780, five years after the previous chapters. Jerry Cruncher, still employed by Tellson's as a runner and a messenger, wakes up in his small apartment located in an unsavory London neighborhood. Around nine o'clock, Cruncher and his young son camp outside Tellson's Bank, where they await the banker's instructions. When an indoor messenger calls for a porter, Cruncher takes off to do the job. As young Jerry sits alone, he wonders why his father's fingers always have rust on them.

10:32 Gregory: The bank clerk instructs Cruncher to go to the Old Bailey Courthouse and await orders from Jarvis Lorry. Cruncher arrives at the court, where Charles Darnay, a handsome, well-bred young man, stands trial for treason. Cruncher understands little of the legal jargon, but he gleans that Darnay has been charged with divulging secret information to the King of France—namely, that England plans to send armed forces to fight in the American colonies. As Darnay looks to a young lady and her distinguished father, a whisper rushes through the courtroom, speculating on the identity of the two. Eventually, Cruncher discovers that they will serve as witnesses against the prisoner.

11:10 Frank: It's the Attorney General who prosecutes this case, demanding that the jury find Darnay guilty of passing English secrets into French hands. Dickens uses these scenes to implement another of his favorite literary devices, parody. The Attorney General's long, self-important, and bombastic speech at the opening of Chapter 3 offers a highly comical imitation of legalese and serves indirectly to ridicule the Attorney General, as well as the entire legal system.

11:36 Elizabeth: The prosecutor examines John Barsad, whose testimony supports the Attorney General's case. The cross-examination, however, tarnishes Barsad's pure and righteous character. It reveals that he has served time in debtors' prison and has been involved in brawls over gambling.

11:53 Gregory: The prosecution calls its next witness, Roger Cly, whom the defense attorney, Mr. Stryver, also exposes as a dubious, untrustworthy witness. Mr. Lorry then takes the stand, and the prosecution asks him if, five years ago, he shared a Dover mail coach with the accused. Lorry contends that his fellow passengers sat so bundled up that their identities remained hidden.

12:16 Elizabeth: The prosecutors then ask similar questions of Lucy, the young woman Darnay had noticed earlier. She admits to meeting the prisoner on the ship back to England. When she recounts how he helped her to care for her sick father, however, she seems to help his case. Yet she then inadvertently turns the court against Darnay by reporting his statement that George Washington's fame might one day match that of George III. Dr. Manette is also called to the stand, but he claims that he remembers nothing of the trip due to his illness.

12:47 Gregory: Mr. Stryver is in the middle of cross-examining another witness, with no result, when his young colleague Sydney Carton passes him a note, which draws the court's attention to Carton's own uncanny resemblance to the prisoner. The undeniable likeness foils the court's ability to identify Darnay as a spy beyond reasonable doubt. The jury retires to deliberate and eventually returns with an acquittal for Darnay.

13:10 Elizabeth: Dr. Manette, Lucy, Mr. Laurie, Mr. Stryver, and Darnay exit the courtroom. Darnay kisses Lucy's hand and then turns to Stryver to thank him for his work. Lucy, Manette, and Stryver depart, and a drunk Sidney Carton emerges from the shadows. Laurie chastises him for not being a serious man of business. Darnay and Carton make their way to a tavern, where Carton smugly asks, is it worth being tried for one's life to be the object of Lucy's sympathy and compassion?

13:40 Gregory: When Darnay comments that Carton has been drinking, Carton gives his reason for indulging himself so. Quote, I am a disappointed drudge, sir. I care for no man on earth, and no man on earth cares for me, end quote. After Darnay leaves, Carton curses his own image in the mirror, as well as his lookalike, who reminds him of what he has fallen away from.

14:01 Elizabeth: Sidney Carton makes his way from the tavern to Mr. Stryver's apartment. The men drink together and discuss the day's court proceedings. Stryver, nicknamed the Lion, compliments his friend, the Jackal, for the rare point that he made regarding Darnay's identification. Given the secondary meaning of the term Jackal, an accomplice in the commission of menial or disreputable acts, the name seems fitting. However, he laments Carton's moodiness. Ever since their days in school together, Stryver observes, Carton has fluctuated between highs and lows, now in spirits and now in despondency.

14:38 Gregory: Attempting to change the subject, Stryver turns the conversation to Lucy, praising her beauty. Carton dismisses her as a golden-haired doll, but Stryver wonders about Carton's true feelings for her. Carton alludes several times to the respectable life that he might have lived. He admits to hating Darnay because the man reminds him of what he could have been. He tells Stryver, quote, I thought I should have been much the same sort of fellow as Darnay if I had had any luck, end quote.

15:04 Frank: Right, Gregory, a great gulf exists between the life that Carton leads and the life that he imagines for himself, between the type of man that he is and the type of man he dreams of being.

15:13 Gregory: We're getting so many dichotomies. Everything is a complete dichotomy from the first opening lines to… It's all doubles.

15:19 Frank: It's all doubles, right? Tale of two cities, best of times, worst of times, Carton's good, Carton's bad. A lot of doubles in this one.

15:28 Gregory: Well, four months later, Mr. Lorry, now a trusted friend of the Manette family, arrives at Dr. Manette's home. Finding Manette and his daughter not at home, he converses with Ms. Pross. They discuss why the doctor continues to keep his shoemakers bench.

15:42 Elizabeth: Their conversation also touches on the number of suitors who come to call on Lucy. Miss Pross complains that they come by the dozen, by the hundred, all people who are not at all worthy of Lady Bird. In Miss Pross's opinion, the only man worthy of Lucy is Solomon Pross, her brother, who she laments disqualified himself by making a certain mistake.

16:03 Gregory: Laurie knows, however, that Solomon is a scoundrel who robbed Miss Pross of her possessions and left her in poverty. He goes on to ask if Manette ever returns to his shoemaking, and Pross assures him that the doctor no longer thinks about his dreadful imprisonment.

16:17 Frank: The narrative now moves back to France. We meet the Marquis Saint-Ivermond, a French aristocrat who embodies an inhumanly cruel caste system. He shows absolutely no regard for human life and wishes that the peasants of the world would be exterminated. The Marquis orders his carriage to be raced through the city streets, delighting to see the commoners nearly run down by his horses.

16:39 Elizabeth: Suddenly, the carriage jolts to a stop. A child lies dead under its wheels. The Marquis tosses a few coins to the boy's father, a man named Gaspard, and to the wine shop owner, Defarge, who tries to comfort Gaspard. As the Marquis drives away, a coin comes flying back into the carriage, thrown in bitterness. Madame Defarge watches the scene, knitting the entire time.

17:04 Gregory: The Marquis continues on his way and soon comes upon a peasant woman mourning at a rustic graveside. The woman stops him and begs that he provide her husband's grave with some stone or marker lest he be forgotten, but the Marquis drives away unmoved.

17:17 Elizabeth: The Marquis arrives at the small village he serves as lord. There, too, the people live wretched lives, exploited, poor, and starving. As he looks over the submissive faces of the peasants, he singles out a roadmender, a man whose fixed stare bothered him. He demands to know what the roadmender was staring at, and the man responds that someone was holding on to the bottom of the carriage.

17:42 Gregory: He finally arrives at his chateau and, upon entering, asks if Monsieur Charles has arrived from England. Later that night, Charles Darnay, the nephew of the Marquis, arrives by carriage. Darnay curses his uncle and the French aristocracy for its abominable treatment of the people. Darnay tells his uncle that he wants to renounce the title and property that he stands to inherit when the Marquis dies. The family's name, Darnay contends, is associated with fear and slavery.

18:13 Elizabeth: The Marquis dismisses these protests, urging his nephew to accept his natural destiny. The next morning, the Marquis is found dead with a knife through his heart. Attached to the knife is a note that reads, drive him fast to his tomb. This from Jacques.

18:30 Frank: Dickens sets up the Marquis as a representative of the French aristocracy and, as such, a direct cause of the imminent revolution. The Marquis, so exaggeratedly cruel and flamboyant, hardly seems an actual human being, hardly a realistic character. Instead, the marquee stands as a symbol or perhaps a personification of the, quote, inhuman abandonment of consideration, unquote, endemic to the French aristocracy during the 18th century.

18:58 Gregory: A year later, Darnay makes a moderate living as a French teacher in London. He visits Dr. Manette and admits his love for Lucie. He honors Manette's special relationship with his daughter, assuring him that his own love for Lucie will in no way disturb that bond.

19:12 Elizabeth: Wanting to be worthy of his confidence, Darnay attempts to tell Manette his real name, confessing that it is not Darnay. Manette stops him short, making him promise to reveal his name only if he proves successful in his courtship. He will hear Darnay's secret on his wedding day. Hours later, after Darnay has left, Lucy hears her father cobbling away at his shoemaker's bench. Frightened by his relapse, she watches him later that night as he sleeps.

19:40 Gregory: Late that same night, Carton and Stryver work in Stryver's chambers. Coldly ambitious, he strives to distinguish himself as a great businessman and announces that he intends to marry Lucy. Carton drinks heavily at the news, assuring Stryver that his words have not upset him. Stryver suggests that Carton himself find, quote, some respectable woman with a little property, end quote, and marry her, lest he end up ill and penniless.

20:05 Elizabeth: The next day, Stryver plans to take Lucy to the Vauxhall Gardens to make his marriage proposal. On his way, he drops in at Tellson's Bank, where he informs Mr. Lorry of his intentions. Lorry persuades Stryver to postpone his proposal until he knows for certain that Lucy will accept. This admonition upsets Stryver. Lorry asks that Stryver hold off his proposal for a few hours to give him time to consult the family and see exactly where Stryver stands.

20:35 Frank: All right, readers, I think with that start, let's take a break here, and when we come back, we'll see just who proposes to Lucy. Is it Stryver, Carton, Charles Darnay? Who knows? But we do know you're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo, and today I'm having a conversation about the novel A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Elizabeth Flood and Gregory James. All right, readers, when we left, it seemed at least three men were hoping to propose to Lucy Manette.

21:17 Gregory: Well, later that night, Laurie visits Stryver and reports that his fears have been confirmed. If Stryver were to propose, the Manettes would reject his offer. Stryver dismisses the entire affair as one of the vanities of empty-headed girls and begs Laurie to forget it.

21:32 Frank: Yeah, I bet those grapes are sour.

21:34 Elizabeth: Carton visits the Manettes one August day and speaks to Lucy alone. She observes a change in his face. He laments his wasted life, despairing that he shall never live a better life than the one he now lives. Great way to start a proposal. Lucy assures him that he might become much worthier of himself. She believes that her tenderness can save him.

21:55 Gregory: Carton insists that he has declined beyond salvation, but admits that he has always viewed Lucy as the last dream of his soul. She has made him consider beginning his life again, though he no longer believes in the possibility of doing so. He feels happy to have admitted this much to Lucy and to know that something remains in him that still deserves pity. Carton ends his confession with a pledge that he would do anything for Lucy, including give his life.

22:19 Frank: It's in this chapter 13 that Dickens lays the foundation for Carton's eventual turnaround. Upon seeing Carton, Lucy observes a change in his demeanor. And much of this change owes to Carton's feelings for her. Just as Carton shares Darnay's physical countenance, he also shares Darnay's devotion to Lucy.

22:38 Elizabeth: Lucy's conjecture on whether she can, quote, recall Carton to a better course, end quote, echoes the beginning of the novel, when Laurie recalls Dr. Manette to life. Manette had to suffer a death of sorts, wasting nearly 20 years in prison before being reborn into the life of love and devotion with Lucy. Now Carton, too, shall have to undergo a sort of death or sacrifice in order to win the fight for love and meaning that he claims to have abandoned.

23:07 Gregory: One morning, outside Telson's bank, Jerry Cruncher sees a funeral pass by. Jerry asks a few questions and learns that the crowd is preparing to bury Roger Cly, a convicted spy and one of the men who testified against Darnay in his court case. Cruncher joins the Motley procession. After much drinking and carousing, the mob buries Cly.

23:25 Elizabeth: At home that night, Cruncher harangues his wife for her prayers. He then announces that he is going fishing. In reality, he goes to dig up Kly's body in order to sell it to scientists. Unbeknownst to Cruncher, his son follows him to the cemetery, but runs away terrified, believing that the coffin is chasing him. The next day, he asks his father the definition of a resurrection man. The term describes men like Cruncher who dig up bodies to sell to science. He announces his intentions to have this job as an adult.

23:57 Gregory: In Paris, Defarge enters his wine shop with a mender of roads whom he calls Jacques. The mender of roads reports that, a year ago, he saw a man hanging by a chain underneath the Marquis' carriage. Several months later, he says, he saw the man again being marched along the road by soldiers. According to rumor, petitions soon arrived in Paris begging that the prisoner's life be spared. However, workmen built a gallows in the middle of town and soon the man was hanged.

24:24 Elizabeth: A policeman friend warns Defarge that a spy by the name of John Barsad has been sent to their neighborhood. Madame Defarge resolves to knit his name into the register. Her knitting work, which, in its stitching, contains an elaborate registry of the names of those whom the revolutionaries aim to kill.

24:42 Gregory: The next day, Barsad visits the wine shop. He masquerades as a sympathizer with the revolutionaries and comments on the horrible treatment of the peasants. Knowing that Defarge once worked as Dr. Manette's servant, he reports that Lucie Manette plans to marry, and that her husband is to be the Marquis' nephew, Darnay. After Barsad leaves, Madame Defarge adds Darnay's name to her registry, unsettling Defarge, the once loyal servant of Manette.

25:07 Elizabeth: It is the eve of Lucy's marriage to Darnay. Dr. Manette finally has begun to put his imprisonment behind him. For the first time since his release, Manette speaks of his days in the Bastille. He is very happy now, thanks to Lucy, who has brought him, quote, consolation and restoration, end quote. Later that night, Lucy sneaks down to her father's room and finds him sleeping soundly.

25:29 Gregory: Darnay and Dr. Manette converse before going to church for Darnay's wedding to Lucy. Manette emerges deadly pale from his meeting. Darnay and Lucy are married and depart for their honeymoon. Almost immediately, a change comes over Manette. He now looks scared and lost. Later that day, Miss Pross and Mr. Lorry discover Manette at his shoemaker's bench, lapsed into an incoherent state. They fear that he will not recover in time to join the newlyweds, as planned on the honeymoon, and for nine days they keep careful watch over him.

25:59 Elizabeth: On the 10th morning, Laurie wakes to find the shoemaker's bench put away and the doctor reading a book. Laurie cautiously asks Manette what might have caused the now-ended relapse, relating Manette's strange case as though it had happened to someone else. He goes on to say that some stimulus must have triggered a memory strong enough to cause it. Manette reassures Ms. Pross and Laurie that such a relapse is not likely to recur because the circumstances that caused it are unlikely to surface again.

26:28 Gregory: Still speaking as though the afflicted party were someone other than Manette, Laurie creates a scenario about a blacksmith. He asks whether, if the smith's forge were associated with a trauma, the smith's tools should be taken from him in order to spare him painful memories. Manette answers that the man used the tools to comfort his tortured mind and should be allowed to keep them. Eventually, however, Manette agrees, for Lucy's sake, to let Laurie dispose of his tools while he is away. A few days later, Manette leaves to join Lucy and Darnay. In his absence, Laurie and Miss Pross hack the shoemaker's bench to pieces, burn it, and bury the tools.

27:06 Elizabeth: When Lucy and Darnay return home from their honeymoon, Sydney Carton is their first visitor. He apologizes for his drunkenness on the night of the trial and delivers a self-effacing speech in which he asks for Darnay's friendship. If you could endure to have such a worthless fellow coming and going at odd times, I should ask that I might be permitted to come and go as a privileged person. Then Carton leaves.

27:29 Gregory: Years go by, and Lucy and her family enjoy a tranquil life. She gives birth to a daughter, little Lucy, and a son who dies young. Lucy still maintains her habit of sitting in a corner of the parlor, listening to the echoing footsteps on the street below. By 1789, the echoes reverberate from a distance and make a sound as of a great storm in France with a dreadful sea rising. One day, Laurie visits the Darnays and reports that an alarming number of French citizens are sending their money and property to England.

28:01 Frank: And here the scene shifts to the storming of the Bastille in Paris. Defarge and Madame Defarge serve as leaders among the mob. Once inside the Bastille, Defarge grabs a guard and demands to be taken to 105 North Tower, where we know Manette had been imprisoned. When he is finished, he rejoins the mob as it murders and mutilates the governor who had defended the fortress. Madame Defarge cuts off the man's head.

28:25 Elizabeth: As the battle rages on, Dickens introduces a symbol that plays a major role in the novel's theme of resurrection, blood, which begins to flow in the streets of St. Antoine. Dickens links the image of blood to that of wine. After a day of butchery, the revolutionary's clothes and hands bear stains of red, recalling the day on which the wine cask breaks in front of Defarge's shop.

28:48 Gregory: The French countryside lies ruined and desolate. An unidentified man, weary from travel, meets the mender of roads. They address each other as Jacques to indicate their status as revolutionaries. The Mender of Roads directs the man to the chateau of the murdered Marquis. Later that night, the man sets the castle on fire. The peasants nearly kill Gabelle, the local tax collector, but he escapes to the roof of his house, where he watches the chateau burn. The narrator reports that scenes such as this are occurring all over France.

29:19 Elizabeth: Another three years pass. Political turmoil continues in France, causing England to become a refuge for persecuted aristocrats. Tellson's Bank in London becomes a great gathering place of Monsignor. Tellson's has decided to dispatch Mr. Lorry to its Paris branch in hopes that he can protect their valuable ledgers, papers, and records from destruction. Darnay arrives to persuade Laurie not to go, but Laurie insists, saying that he will bring Jerry Cruncher as his bodyguard.

29:51 Gregory: Laurie receives an urgent letter, addressed to the Marquis St. Evermont, along with instructions for its delivery. Laurie laments the extreme difficulty of locating the Marquis, who has abandoned the estate willed to him by his murdered uncle. Darnay, careful to let no one suspect that he is in fact the missing Marquis, says that the Marquis is an acquaintance of his. He takes the letter, assuring Laurie that he will see it safely delivered.

30:15 Elizabeth: Darnay reads the letter, which contains a plea from Gabel, whom the revolutionaries have imprisoned for his upkeep of the Marquis' property. Gabel begs the new Marquis to return to France and save him. Darnay resolves to go to Paris with a glorious vision of doing good. After writing a farewell letter to Lucie and Dr. Manette, he departs.

30:36 Frank: All right, readers, let's take a break here, and when we come back, we'll find out if Darnay is successful in his mission to save Gabel. You are listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo. We'll be right back. And welcome back to Novel Conversations. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, and today I'm having a conversation about A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens. When we left, at the risk of his life, Darnay had returned to France to help a former family worker.

31:10 Gregory: Gregory? Travel through France proves difficult for Darnay. Hostile revolutionaries frequently stop and question him. Upon his arrival in Paris, the revolutionaries confine him to a prison called La Force. Darnay protests and reminds his jailers of his rights. However, the guard responds that, as an emigrant, Darnay, whom he refers to as Evermonde, has no rights.

31:32 Frank: At La Force, Darnay feels he's entered a world of the dead. A fellow prisoner welcomes him to the prison and says that he hopes Darnay will not be kept, quote, in secret, meaning solitary confinement. But Darnay has indeed been sentenced to total isolation, and he soon finds himself in a cell measuring, quote, five paces by four and a half paces.

31:53 Elizabeth: Lucy and Dr. Manette storm into the Paris branch of Telson's Bank to find Mr. Lorry. They inform him that Darnay sits imprisoned in La Force. Manette remains confident that he can use his standing as a one-time prisoner of the Bastille to help rescue his son-in-law. Lorry and Manette look out into the courtyard where throngs of people sharpen their weapons on a grindstone. Lorry explains that the mob is preparing to kill the prisoners. Manette rushes into the crowd and soon a cry arises, help for the Bastille prisoners kindred in La Force.

32:27 Frank: The scene at the grindstone powerfully evokes the frantic and mindlessly violent mob of the revolution. The description of the people in bloodstained rags, quote, not one creature in the group free from the smear of blood, unquote, immediately recalls the breaking of the wine cask outside the Farge's shop. There too, the people in rags are stained and, quote, Those who had been greedy with the staves of the cask had acquired a tigerish smear about the mouth."

32:55 Gregory: Fearing that Lucy and Manette's presence might compromise the bank's business, Laurie ushers Lucy, her daughter, and Miss Pross to a nearby lodging. He leaves Jerry Cruncher to guard them. Back at Tellson's, Defarge approaches Laurie with a message from Manette. Following Manette's instructions, Laurie leads Defarge to Lucie. Defarge claims that Madame Defarge must accompany them as she will familiarize herself with the faces of Lucie, her daughter, and Miss Pross in order to better protect them in the future. Turning to Madame Defarge, Lucie begs her to show Darnay some mercy, but Madame Defarge coldly responds that the revolution will not stop for the sake of Lucie and her family.

33:35 Elizabeth: Four days later, Manette returns from La Force. Laurie notes a change in the once fragile Manette, who now seems full of strength and power. Manette tells him that he has persuaded the Tribunal, a self-appointed body that tries and sentences the Revolution's prisoners, to keep Darnay alive. Moreover, he has secured a job as the inspecting physician of three prisons, one of which is La Force. These duties will enable him to ensure Darnay's safety. Time passes, and France rages as though in a fever. The revolutionaries behead the king and queen, and the guillotine becomes a fixture in the Paris streets. Darnay remains in prison for a year and three months.

34:18 Gregory: While the family waits for Darnay's trial, Manette tells Lucie of a window in the prison from which Darnay might see her in the street. For two hours every day, Lucie stands in the area visible from this window. One day, Lucie sees her father standing before her. As he comforts Lucie, Madame Defarge happens by. She and Manette exchange salutes. Manette then tells Lucie that Darnay will stand trial on the following day and assures her that her husband will fare well in it.

34:46 Elizabeth: A motley and bloodthirsty crowd assembles at the trial of Charles Darnay. When Dr. Manette is announced as Darnay's father-in-law, a happy cry goes up among the audience. The court hears testimony from Darnay, Manette, and Gabelle, establishing that Darnay long ago had renounced his title out of disapproval of the aristocracy's treatment of the peasants. These factors, in addition to Darnay's status as the son-in-law of the much-loved Manette, persuade the jury to acquit him. The crowd carries Darnay home in a chair on their shoulders.

35:19 Gregory: The next day, although Manette rejoices in having saved Darnay's life, Lucy remains terrified for her husband. Later that afternoon, she reports hearing footsteps on the stairs, and soon a knock comes at the door. Four soldiers enter and re-arrest Darnay.

35:34 Elizabeth: Manette asks one of the soldiers to give the name of Darnay's accuser. Though it is against the law to divulge such information, the soldier replies that he is carrying out the arrest according to statements made by Defarge, Madame Defarge, and one other individual. When Manette asks for the identity of this third person, the soldier replies that Manette will receive his answer the next day.

35:56 Gregory: Meanwhile, Jerry Cruncher and Miss Pross discover Miss Pross' long-lost brother, Solomon, in a wine shop. Solomon scolds his sister for making a scene over their reunion. He cannot afford to be identified because he is working as a spy for the Republic. Cruncher recognizes Solomon as the witness who accused Darnay of treason during his trial in England 13 years earlier.

36:17 Elizabeth: He struggles to remember the man's name until Sidney Carton, who suddenly appears behind them, provides it. Barsad. Carton states that he has been in Paris for a day and has been lying low until he could be useful. He threatens to reveal Barsad's true identity to the revolutionaries unless the spy accompanies him to Tellson's.

36:37 Gregory: Upon arriving at Tellson's, Carton informs Mr. Lorry and Jerry Cruncher that Darnay has been arrested again. He overheard Barsad discussing the news in a bar. Carton has a plan to help Darnay should he be convicted, and he threatens to expose Barsad as an English spy should Barsad fail to cooperate. Carton reveals that he has seen Barsad conversing with Roger Cly, a known English spy. When Barsad counters that Cly is dead, he presents the certificate of burial.

37:05 Elizabeth: Cruncher disproves the story by asserting that Kly's coffin contained only stones and dirt. Though Cruncher is unwilling to explain how he knows these details, Carton takes him at his word and again threatens to expose Barsad as an enemy of the Republic. Barsad finally gives in and agrees to help Carton with his secret plan.

37:26 Gregory: Laurie scolds Cruncher for leading a secret life of grave robbing outside his job at Tellson's. Cruncher hints that there may be many doctors involved in grave robbing who bank at Tellson's. Cruncher then makes amends, saying that if Laurie will let young Jerry Cruncher inherit his own duties at the bank, he himself will become a gravedigger to make up for all the graves that he has undug. After Barsad leaves, Carton tells Laurie and Cruncher that he has arranged a time to visit Darnay before his imminent execution.

37:55 Elizabeth: That night, as he wanders the streets of Paris, Carton thinks of Lucy. He enters a chemist's shop and buys a mysterious substance. The words spoken by the priest at his father's funeral echo through his mind. I am the resurrection and the life, saith the Lord. He that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

38:19 Gregory: He wanders until sunrise, then makes his way to the courthouse for Darnay's trial. The judge names Darnay's accusers, the Defarges and Dr. Manette. Manette reacts with shock and denies having ever denounced Darnay. Defarge then takes the stand and speaks of a letter that he found, hidden in 105 North Tower of the Bastille.

38:38 Elizabeth: Defarge claims that Manette wrote the letter while imprisoned in the Bastille, and he reads it aloud. It tells the story of Manette's imprisonment. In 1757, a pair of brothers, one the Marquis Evermond, Darnay's father, and the other, the next in line to be Marquis, Darnay's uncle, the man who ran over the child with his carriage, ordered Dr. Manette to care for a young peasant woman, who was dying of a fever, and her brother, who was dying of a stab wound.

39:08 Gregory: The Marquis' brother had raped the young woman, killed her husband, and stabbed her brother, who died quickly. Although the woman was still alive, Manette failed to save her life. The next day, a kind woman, the Marquis' wife and Darnay's mother, came to Manette's door. Having heard about the horrible things done to the peasant girl and her family, she offers to help the girl's sister, who was hidden away so the Marquis could not find her. Unfortunately, Manette does not know the sister's whereabouts. The next day, Manette was taken away and imprisoned in the Bastille on the orders of the Marquis Evermont.

39:41 Elizabeth: After hearing this story, the jury sentences Darnay to death to pay for the sins of his father and uncle. The courtroom crowd pours into the streets to celebrate Darnay's condemnation. John Barsad, charged with ushering Darnay back to his cell, lets Lucy embrace her husband one last time. Darnay insists that Dr. Manette not blame himself for the trial's outcome.

40:06 Gregory: Darnay is escorted back to his cell to await his execution the following morning, and Carton escorts the grieving Lucie to her apartment. Carton tells Manette to try his influence one last time with the prosecutors and then meet him at Telson's.

40:18 Elizabeth: Carton goes to Defarge's wine shop. The Defarges marvel at how much he physically resembles the condemned Darnay. Carton overhears Madame Defarge's plan to accuse Lucie and Manette of spying, and to accuse Lucie's daughter as well. Defarge himself finds this course unnecessary, but his wife reminds him of her grievances against the family Evermond. She is the surviving sister of the woman and man killed by the Marquis and his brother. She demands the extermination of their heirs. Carton pays for his wine and returns to Tellson's.

40:52 Gregory: At midnight, Manette arrives home completely out of his mind. He looks about madly for his shoemaking bench. After calming Manette, Carton takes from the doctor's coat the papers that will allow Lucy, the doctor, and the child to leave the city. He gives the documents to Laurie. Then, Carton gives Laurie his own papers, refusing to explain why. Afraid that the papers may soon be recalled because Madame Defarge intends to denounce the entire family, Carton insists to Laurie that the time is of the essence. The family must leave tomorrow. Alone in the street, that night, Carton utters a final goodbye and blessing to Lucy.

41:29 Frank: 52 people have been condemned to die the next day. Darnay resolves to meet his death bravely. Carton appears at the door to Darnay's cell and Darnay observes something new and bright in Carton's face. Carton tricks Darnay into switching clothes with him, dictates a letter of explanation, and then drugs him with the substance that he had purchased at the chemist's shop.

41:48 Elizabeth: He orders Barsad to carry the unconscious Darnay to the carriage waiting outside Tellson's. At two o'clock, guards take Carton from Darnay's cell, believing him to be Darnay. He stands in the long line of the condemned. A poor seamstress, also falsely sentenced to death, realizes that Carton is not Darnay and asks, are you dying for him? He replies, and his wife and child. Meanwhile, Barsaad delivers the real Darnay to Manette, Laurie, and Lucy, and sends the carriage on its way. Laurie presents the family's papers at the city gates as they leave. They flee through the countryside, fearing pursuit.

42:25 Gregory: Meanwhile, Madame Defarge heads towards Lucie's apartment to try to catch Lucie in the illegal act of mourning a prisoner. Evidence of such a crime, she believes, will strengthen her case against the family. At the apartment, Miss Pross and Jerry Cruncher are in the middle of making final arrangements to depart Paris. To avoid drawing the suspicion that leaving together might engender, Miss Pross tells Cruncher to wait for her with the carriage at the cathedral.

42:49 Elizabeth: When Cruncher leaves, Madame Defarge barges in and demands to know Lucy's whereabouts. The women fight and Madame Defarge draws a gun. In the struggle, however, Miss Prosh shoots her. She meets Cruncher as planned and reports that she has gone deaf from the gunshot.

43:06 Gregory: Carton and the young seamstress reach the guillotine. The vengeance and the other revolutionary women worry that Madame Defarge will miss the beheading of Charles Darnay. The seamstress reflects that the new republic may make life easier for poor people like herself and her surviving cousin. She kisses Carton and goes calmly to her death. Carton then goes to his.

43:25 Elizabeth: The narrator recounts that those who saw Carton die witnessed a peaceful and even prophetic look on his face, and speculates confidently about Carton's final thoughts. Carton notes the fact that the oppressors in the crowd have risen on the destruction of the old, but also realizes that someday, Paris will recover from these horrors and become beautiful.

43:46 Gregory: Also, in these imagined last moments, Carton sees Lucy and Darnay with a child named after himself. He sees Manette happy and healthy, and sees Laurie living a long and peaceful life. He sees a future in which he holds a special place in their hearts, and in the hearts of the generation hence. He sees his own name made illustrious, and the blots that he threw upon his life fade away.

44:09 Frank: And as our story ends, according to the narrator, Carton dies in a knowledge that, as he quotes, it's a far, far better thing I do than I have ever done. It is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known. I see a beautiful city and a brilliant people rising from this abyss and in their struggles to be truly free. I see the evil of this time gradually making expiration for itself and wearing out. And so our story ends. And as the story began with one of the most famous opening lines in English literature, it ends with one of the most famous ending lines in English literature. All right, readers, great insights. Elizabeth Gregory, let's take a final break now and then we'll head into our last segment where I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or perhaps a quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet. You've been listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo. We'll be right back. Welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, and today I've had a conversation about A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens, and I was joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Elizabeth Flood and Gregory James. Before our break, we ended our story, and now I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or perhaps a quote that we haven't really had a chance to talk about yet. Gregory, do you have something you want to read for us or tell us about?

45:31 Gregory: Sure. The first thing that I just thought was really funny as we were going through again was Dr. Manette's letter that he wrote in the Bastille that was found and read. It is a dense 11-page chapter. It is a long letter. He reiterates that he wrote it in secret with found scraps and blood. And I was like, And he's writing it so far after the fact, but it's so extremely detailed to the note. It's not just like a recap of things. It is like a very specific thing. And every time I read something about it through the chapter, I was like, nobody would remember such a finite detail in the exact right. Like I understand it's just like a device, but I just, that made me laugh.

46:14 Frank: And then it laid buried and unfound until Defarge goes in and grabs it.

46:18 Gregory: Yeah, exactly. And then just another thing, because I'm so terrible at not having read these books before, just like Treasure Island, I didn't… It was Treasure Planet. That was all for movies. I read this and I was like, oh my God, History of the World Part One. It's the French Revolution, Madame Defarge. I mean, it's so iconic. And I just, that's all I could see in my head was History of the World Part One, that entire scene of the French Revolution while I was reading this.

46:46 Frank: Isn't she knitting? Isn't there a knitting in there? Oh, the whole time, yeah.

46:48 Gregory: She's in King Louis.

46:51 Frank: I can't say I remember quite as specifically perhaps as you do, but I have some vague flashbacks to it.

46:58 Gregory: I've seen it so many times.

47:00 Elizabeth: Oh, I need to watch that. I don't think I've seen that one.

47:02 Gregory: Yeah, it's so good.

47:03 Frank: What I wanted to bring up, towards the end of the novel, we get a story of an aristocrat named Fulan. And he's a very wealthy man who had once declared that if people were starving, they should just eat grass. He faked his own death to avoid the peasant's fury, but was later discovered hiding in the country. The revolutionary set out to meet Foulon, led by Madame Defarge and a woman known only as The Vengeance. The mob strings Foulon up, but the rope breaks and he does not die until his third hanging. The peasants put his head on a pike and fill his mouth with yes grass. When they have finished, the peasants eat their scanty and insufficient suppers, parents play with their children, and lovers love. And it's not a pleasant scene, not a pleasant moment in the novel, but it certainly speaks to the anger, the vengeance, the ruthlessness of the revolutionaries at this time and their hatred, absolute hatred of the aristocracy that has put them into this position. Elizabeth, do you have something you want to share?

48:02 Elizabeth: Yes, I wanted to mention the coincidence of Darnay and Sydney Carton looking like identical twins.

48:09 Frank: Well, that's good, because you don't have time to mention all the coincidences. I'm glad you focused on the one.

48:15 Elizabeth: Oh, well, yeah. I'll bring that up as one. And, you know, as you mentioned, Charles Dickens tends to have a lot of coincidences throughout his books and a lot of just unusual circumstances. And that's something that he likes to dwell on. And we might say that a lot of these coincidences seem unrealistic, but if you think about it, there's a lot of crazy stuff that happens in real life, there are a lot of really bizarre coincidences that happen in our day-to-day life that may have meaning, may not.

48:50 Frank: And sometimes we won't know for 10 years if it connected to something.

48:55 Elizabeth: You might not know for years and years why something happened, and then you learn a decade or two later. But yeah, is it a coincidence? Is it fate?

49:04 Frank: Is it serendipity?

49:06 Elizabeth: Yeah, providence, the universe, whatever you want to call it, who knows?

49:10 Frank: Very good. Gregory, you got something else you want to share?

49:12 Gregory: I do. I have a quote that it tickled me. His imagery is always amazing. I mean, come on, you don't write this much without having some solid imagery in here. But it surprisingly was so far towards the end when he's describing La Guillotine. And I loved it so much I wanted to read it. Above all, one hideous figure grew as familiar as if it had been before the general gaze from the foundations of the world, the figure of the sharp female called La Guillotine. It was a popular theme for jests. It was the best cure for headache. It infallibly prevented the hair from turning gray. It imparted a peculiar delicacy for the complexion. It was the national razor, which shaved close, who kissed La Guillotine, looked through a little window, and sneezed into the sack. It was the sign of the regeneration of the human race. It superseded the cross. Models of it were worn on breasts from which the cross were discarded. And it was bowed down to and believed in where the cross was denied. And it's just, it's such an amazing idea that this destructive force, I mean, you figure the cross also was the same sort of device. A device of death. A device of death. And that they believed in it so much, it became the national symbol. And I believe was used up until mid 1900s. It did not go away very quickly. Yeah, it did not. But I just, I mean, you know, just the kind of little, the little humor, the dark humor that he throws in there, it's sprinkled throughout. And especially at this point in the book, things are very heavy by this point. We've seen some terrible, terrible images. And to just kind of throw that in there makes you realize the situation of the time was very real. And that little bit of dark humor went along with it. And a lot of the revolutionaries went along with it happily to get their revenge. So, yeah.

51:05 Frank: Gregory, I think discussing the guillotine is a great way to end our discussion of the novel, A Tale of Two Cities, about the French Revolution. I want to thank both of you for coming in today and having this conversation with me. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Very much so. Thank you. Thanks so much, Frank. I'm Frank Lavallo, and you've been listening to Novel Conversations. Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find us on Instagram at Novel Conversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and in anything else we've got in the works. I want to give special thanks to our readers today, Elizabeth Flood and Gregory James. Our sound designer and producer is Noah Foutz, and Gray Sienna Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Brigid Coyne and Joan Andrews. I'm Frank Lavallo. Thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation all your own.