00:09 Frank: Hello, and welcome to Novel Conversation, a podcast about the world's greatest stories. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, and for each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book. And together, we summarize the story for you. We introduce you to the characters, we tell you what happens to them, and we read from the book along the way. So if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place. This episode's conversation is about the novel, Age of Innocence, by Edith Warren. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Elizabeth Flood and Anthony Mahramus. Elizabeth, Anthony, welcome.
00:40 Katie: Thanks so much. It's great to be here, Frank.

00:42 Frank: Yeah, thanks, Frank. Glad to have you both here for this conversation. Before we get started, let me give a quick introduction to this episode's novel. The Age of Innocence is a novel by American author Edith Warren. It was her eighth novel and was initially serialized in 1920. And later that year, it was released as a book. It won the 1921 Pulitzer Prize for Fiction, making Wharton the first woman to win the prize. The story is set in the 1870s in upper-class, Gilded Age New York City. The Age of Innocence centers on an upper-class couple's impending marriage and the introduction of the bride's scandal-plagued cousin, whose presence threatens their happiness. Though the novel questions the assumptions and morals of 1870s New York society, it never develops into an outright condemnation of the institution. The novel is noted for Wharton's attention to detail and its accurate portrayal of how the 19th century East Coast American upper class lived. The title is an ironic comment on the polished outward manners of New York society when compared to its inward machinations. It's believed to have been drawn from the popular painting A Little Girl by Sir Joshua Reynolds that later became known as The Age of Innocence. though Reynolds himself never called it that. All right, with that introduction, Elizabeth, get us started. How does our novel begin?

01:52 Katie: The novel opens in the new opera house where all of New York's high society has assembled in its expensive box seats to see and to be seen. Newland Archer, the protagonist, has just arrived fashionably late and joins his friends. As he glances across the filled theater, he spots May Welland, his new fiancee, seated in the box of her aristocratic old grandmother, Mrs. Manson Mingott. Archer, struck anew by her pure and innocent beauty, dreams of blissful married life with May.

02:26 Anthony: His reverie is abruptly interrupted by his acquaintance, Larry Lefferts, who notices a stranger entering the Mingott box. A slim young woman wearing a theatrical and low-cut dress takes a seat in the box, seemingly unconscious of all the attention she attracts.

02:40 Katie: With shock, Archer realizes that this woman is no other than the Countess Ellen Olenska, cousin to May Welland, who has returned to New York after having lived abroad for many years. Lefferts, considered to be the authority on form, or style and fashion, is shocked that the Countess would appear in good society with the rest of her family.

03:03 Frank: Elizabeth, an authority on form?

03:05 Katie: Edith Wharton singles Larry Lefferts out of the crowd as the foremost authority on form. Form, or a code that indicates the acceptable tastes in fashion and manners, is extremely important to this society, which is so concerned with appearances. An unusual dress or a flippant attitude may in fact signify more than just a lack of taste, but also a lack of proper moral values.

03:32 Frank: Anthony, we also meet Sillerton Jackson, another one of Archer's friends.

03:36 Anthony: Yeah, yeah. Sillerton Jackson is the unofficial archivist of all family histories and scandals within the upper class. Not only does Jackson know every blood and marital relationship within the tight clan of Old New York, he also knows each family's scandals, whether real or rumored. Thanks to Jackson, one's private history does not remain a secret for long.

03:56 Frank: And we learn through their gossip that it's rumored that the countess had left her cruel and unfaithful husband, a Polish count.

04:01 Katie: Newland admires the fiery and somewhat unorthodox determination of Mrs. Manson-Mingott to support this black sheep of her family by not only hosting her indefinitely in her home, but also by allowing her to appear publicly in the family box at the opera.

04:18 Frank: But Elizabeth, at the same time, he's bothered that all of New York society will see such a scandalous figure sitting next to his innocent young fiance. And as the men continue to gossip, Archer feels compelled to take decisive action. He decides he has the responsibility to defend the Mingott clan.

04:34 Anthony: During an intermission, he hurries over to the Mingott box. Although no words are exchanged between May and himself as to the reason for his sudden appearance, she shows her understanding of the situation and her gratitude to Archer with her smile.

04:46 Katie: Both she and Archer are aware that by appearing in the Mingott box with the Countess Olenska, Archer is demonstrating his connection to that family and his support of their decision to include the Countess in their social activities. Archer is introduced to Olenska, who is one of his childhood playmates.

05:05 Frank: In these opening chapters of Age of Innocence, Wharton immediately evokes a specific time, a place, and actually an entire society. Her description of the opera is highly effective as an introductory setting. It acclimates the reader to the fashions and entertainment preferences of Old New York. The members of the audience scrutinize each other far more than the opera itself. singling out in particular the fashions and manners and forms of their peers. One goes to the opera to see and to be seen, to judge and to be judged.

05:35 Anthony: After the opera, many of the wealthy New York families attend the annual ball at the Beaufort residence. Julius Beaufort, we learn, is a handsome, charming, and disreputable Englishman with a shady financial history and a strong tendency towards infidelity. His wife Regina is a pretty but dull woman of reputable family background. Although many consider the Beauforts to be common, no one would ever miss their elaborate and ostentatious balls, which provide a cornerstone for New York social activities.

06:03 Frank: Elizabeth, what else do we know about Julius Beaufort?

06:06 Katie: His personal history is spotty at best, but he is notorious for his womanizing. It is widely rumored that he left Europe after some shady business deals. With his elaborate annual balls, Beaufort is one of the most important and lavish hosts of New York entertainment. He provides a clear example of the discrepancy of appearance versus reality. Because of his immaculate dress, public display of manners and hospitality, and good form, he is accepted by the New York clan. As long as Beaufort, or anyone else for that matter, can hide the unpleasantness of his past, he will be welcomed into good society.

06:46 Anthony: Now at the ball, Archer and May officially announce their engagement. In a moment alone together in the conservatory, they express their happiness. May suddenly asks Archer to announce their engagement to her cousin, Ellen Alenska. Ellen, to the relief of her family, did not attend the Beaufort's ball.

07:03 Katie: As is expected of all newly engaged couples, Archer and May began a series of betrothal visits to their friends and relatives. The first visit is to Mrs. Manson Mingott, who lives by herself in a grand and unorthodox mansion near Central Park. Because of her tremendous obesity, she is confined to her house, but because of her social influence, she is not isolated from the rest of society.

07:29 Anthony: Mrs. Mingott happily receives the couple and instructs May on wedding preparations. As they are about to take their leave, Ellen Olenska returns home from shopping with Julius Beaufort. Archer notices that Mrs. Mingott greets them both cordially. She does not seem to consider it improper, as he does, that a married man should be seen in daylight with a recently separated woman.

07:48 Frank: This chapter opens with one of the most humorous character sketches in the novel. The immensely large Mrs. Manson Mingutt is an intriguing character to Archer because of her slightly unorthodox living arrangement and her candid way of speaking. Because of her impeccable moral character and high social status, her free style of conversation does not scandalize others, and as a result, she can easily get away with making some perceptive and occasionally critical insights into the society of Old New York.

08:16 Katie: As Archer leaves, he speaks briefly to the Countess about his engagement to May. She is very pleased and asks Archer to call on her soon.

08:24 Anthony: The next evening, Sillerton Jackson dines with Archer and Archer's mother and sister at their home. Jackson and the two women are eager to gossip about the arrival of the Countess Zelinska. When the conversation inevitably drifts to discussing her appearance in public with Beaufort, Archer shocks his family by claiming that she has the right to go where she chooses.

08:43 Frank: Right, he remarks that he's tired of a double standard for the affairs of men and women, and that it's time for women to be as free as men. Archer attempts to defend Ellen's right to have an affair following the infidelities of her husband by proclaiming that women should be as free as men when it comes to their personal relationships.

09:01 Katie: Alone in his study after dinner, Archer contemplates his assertion that women should have the same freedoms as men. He now concludes that the nice women of his class were brought up to never desire freedom. Archer realizes that although, in theory, he wants women to have more freedoms, He doesn't really think that this is going to be put into practice for his own wife. He realizes that May has been carefully trained by her family not to possess the same traits as him. To him, May is innocent because she is ignorant. And he doesn't think it'll ever come up that she'll want to have more freedoms than she currently does. While he remains unwavering in his decision to marry her, he begins to feel that his marriage will not be entirely what he had previously expected. He also thinks about the fact that May has probably not had much, if any, education on sexuality. Meanwhile, he has already had some sexual experiences. And he realizes that the standards for the two of them are very different.

10:06 Anthony: Now, a few days later, the Mingott family is in great distress. After having sent out invitations for a formal dinner to be held in honor of the Countess Olenska, they have received refusals from practically all of the invites. It is clear that New York has decided to scorn the Countess Olenska by not attending her welcoming dinner.

10:25 Frank: Okay, readers, with that start, let's take a break, and when we come back, we'll see how the family deals with this social slight. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back. Welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo, and today I'm having a conversation about the novel Age of Innocence by Edith Wharton. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Elizabeth Flood and Anthony Mahramus. All right, Anthony, Elizabeth, when we left, we learned that in an attempt to rehabilitate the Countess, her family has decided to throw a party to welcome her home. Unfortunately, old New York society continues to shun her.

11:10 Katie: In protest, Archer appeals to his mother to talk with Henry and Louisa van der Luyden. The van der Luyden's, a frail old couple who are seldom seen in public and receive only their most intimate friends into their home, are regarded as the most powerful and most elite figures in New York society. Archer hopes that their influence can atone for the slight that has been dealt to the Countess and her family.

11:33 Anthony: At the van der Luyden's formal and ostentatious Madison Avenue home, Archer and his mother relate the slight given to the Countess Olenska. As the sole descendants of one of the most wealthy and aristocratic families in the city, Henry and Louisa van der Luyden serve as legislatures, executives, and judges in regards to certain social problems.

11:53 Katie: And because Ellen's family supports her, they decide everyone outside the family must honor their decision and treat her as one of them.

12:00 Frank: The van der Luyden's decide to stand by the Countess on principle. If her family has already decided to support her admittance into society, the rest of society must support their decision as well. And to make amends, the van der Luyden's decide to include the Countess at their reception for the Duke of St. Austria.

12:17 Anthony: In the course of the next week, before attending the reception for the Duke, Archer learns much about the past of the Countess Olenska. After the early deaths of her itinerant parents, Ellen was left under the guardianship of her aunt, Medora Manson, an eccentric and frequently widowed woman. After the death of Madora's most recent husband, she packed up and left with Ellen in tow. For years, nothing was heard of them until news reached New York that Ellen had married the extremely wealthy Polish Count Olenski. A few years later, the marriage ended in disaster and Ellen decided to return to her New York family to recuperate.

12:51 Katie: At the Duke's reception, the Countess raises eyebrows by appearing late and somewhat disheveled. After dinner, she leaves the side of the Duke, with whom she is expected to converse, in order to talk with Archer, which is quite unusual. As their conversation is interrupted by the other guests, Countess Olenska bids Archer to call on her at her new home the next day.

13:14 Anthony: Archer arrives late at the Countess's shabby, slightly bohemian flat the following day, only to find her away. He decides to wait in her living room until she returns. While he waits, he examines the room, which is artfully decorated with European bric-a-brac and exotic works of art. To Archer, who is used to the standardized Italian art appreciated by those in his class, the Countess's furnishings are novel and intriguing. Suddenly, from the window, he sees the Countess descend from Beaufort's cab.

13:42 Katie: Inside the flat, Archer is interested by the Countess's novel, if slightly shocking, opinions on the fashions and the families of Old New York. She in turn looks to Archer for advice about fitting into the New York clan. She remarks to Archer that the most lonely aspect of living in New York is that she's required to live around well-meaning people who insist that she pretend to be someone she is not in order to spare them any unpleasantness.

14:08 Anthony: I like this. In chapters 8 and 9, we begin to get a better grasp of Ellen's personality. Up until this point, we have seen Ellen primarily through the eyes of others, through the gossip at the opera, and through Archer's opinions based on their brief encounters. Ellen is quite candid in her opinions. She directly criticizes the faults she sees in society.

14:27 Katie: And I remember she mentions that she has tried to open up to family members of hers about what happened between her and Count Olenski, and they simply don't want to hear about it because it's too unpleasant for them. So she has no one to tell her story to because nobody wants to hear it. The next day, while walking with May in the park, Archer tries to persuade May to shorten their engagement. He suggests that they elope, an idea that to May can only seem ridiculously funny. Archer begins to suspect that May will never be able to think for herself, that she has been so thoroughly conditioned by her elders that if she were given freedom, she would still be unable to act on her own.

15:11 Frank: The opening scene of Chapter 10, in which Archer tries to persuade May to marry him early, reveals some of the faults in May's character as Archer sees them. As Archer ponders May's innocent nature and her inability to speak for herself, he decides that it's up to him as her husband to take the bandages from her eyes and let her see the world as it is. Yet upon reflection, Archer begins to wonder if May will ever be truly able to think for herself, even once these bandages are lifted.

15:37 Anthony: Back in his study the next afternoon, Archer finds himself out of spirits. He feels discontent with the routine of his life. While he is musing, his sister Janie bursts into the study to inform him of the latest scandal. It appears that the Countess Olenska was seen, along with the Duke, at the house of Mrs. Lemuel Struthers the previous night. Mrs. Struthers, as the widow of a wealthy shoe polish magnate, is seen as a slightly vulgar social climber, and her parties are reputed To be bohemian?

16:08 Frank: No, not bohemian. I hate to say it. Oh, that's the worst.

16:13 Katie: A few weeks later, Archer is confronted at his law office by the head of the firm, Mr. Letterblair. He informs Archer that the Mingott family wished to consult with Mr. Letterblair regarding the Countess Olenska's interest in suing her husband for divorce. Archer is uneasy with this proposition, but agrees to look over the papers concerning the settlement. While reviewing the papers, Archer comes across a letter written by Count Olenski, that he feels would be damaging to the Countess's reputation were it exposed. Wharton implies indirectly that this letter indicates that the Countess has had an illicit affair.

16:52 Frank: And isn't that the way of Wharton throughout this novel? She implies indirectly quite a lot. Yeah. And we're left to fill in the blanks ourselves.

17:02 Anthony: He now feels pity for Ellen Alenska and decides that it is necessary for him to protect her from further damaging her own reputation, which would be devastated if it were revealed that she had been unfaithful to her husband. Leonard Blair asks him to advise the Countess not to sue for divorce, as it would generate a lot of unpleasant talk for the family. Archer hesitates, responding that he won't commit until he speaks with her.

17:25 Katie: Again, that word unpleasant. The one thing they just really have to shy away from is anything unpleasant. After dinner, he pays a call on Countess Olenska and is irritated to find Beaufort already at her flat. After Beaufort leaves, Ellen and Archer discuss the divorce settlement. She wants to erase the past, to finally free herself from her husband's control. Archer warns her about the unpleasant accusations contained in the letter from her husband. Ellen dismisses these accusations, but Archer cautions her that New York is a very old-fashioned city, and any hint of scandal could affect her entire family. Alinska then tells Archer that she will do as he sees best.

18:09 Frank: Archer sends a note to Ellen asking if he may call on her, and after three days, she responds. She writes that she has, quote, run away for the week to Scoiter Cliff, the Hudson mansion belonging to the Vanderleidens. On a whim, Archer decides to accept a weekend invitation of his friends living along the Hudson, where he will be sure to run into the Countess.

18:28 Anthony: A day after arriving, Archer sets off for Squirter Cliff, meeting Ellen along the way. As they walk, he asks her why she left New York so abruptly. She evades his questions. Inside, Archer again questions her. Before she can answer his question, Beaufort unexpectedly appears at the door. Ellen, visibly dismayed, bids him to enter and Archer can see that it was Beaufort she was attempting to avoid.

18:51 Katie: A few days later, Ellen sends Archer a note asking to see him so she can explain the events at Scoiter Cliff. Instead of responding, he packs his bags and leaves for St. Augustine, Florida, where Mae has been vacationing with her parents for the past week.

19:06 Frank: The settings in our novel take on increasing importance in these chapters. By rapidly changing the scene from New York to Scoiter Cliff to St. Augustine, Warren indicates a change in her character's attitudes. For Ellen, spending the weekend at Scoiter Cliff allows her to temporarily escape the dreary and confining realities of New York. Archer leaves New York for Hudson on a whim, with very little explanation, in order to see Ellen. Unsatisfied with their meeting, during which he both realizes his love for Ellen and the barriers to such a potential relationship, he abruptly departs for St. Augustine. There, he instead seeks to be reunited with May and affirm his own feelings for her.

19:45 Anthony: It is also significant that Archer's feelings for Ellen become explicit at Squitercliff and not New York. In fact, many of the key interactions between them occur outside of New York. In this way, Archer connects his love for Ellen with an escape from the confines of New York. In book two, he will express a wish to run away to the Far East with Ellen, or at least go to a place where labels like mistress or adultery don't exist. That'd be convenient. To Archer, a voyage away from New York represents the ultimate freedom.

20:14 Katie: In St. Augustine, Archer is at first blissfully happy to see May. But as he listens to her prattle on about her simple daily activities, he finds his mind wandering. With the rest of the Welland family, the subject of conversation again returns to Ellen Olenska. May's mother blames the countess's unconventionality on her eccentric European upbringing. and she thanks Archer for convincing Ellen not to sue for divorce. Archer is secretly annoyed, feeling that by not allowing her to divorce, the Mingott clan is ensuring that Ellen will eventually become the mistress of Beaufort rather than the lawful wife of some upstanding man. I would like to mention here though that multiple people make it clear that Ellen changed her mind about the divorce because of Archer. He was the one to convince her not to go through with it.

21:09 Anthony: Alone with May, Archer again presses her to shorten the length of their engagement. May surprises him by asking why he wants such a short engagement. She wonders if it is because he is not quite certain that he wants to marry her. She admits to Archer that since the announcement of their engagement, he has acted differently towards her, and she is afraid that this is because he is still in love with his mistress of years past. May feels that if Archer is still in love, his passions for his mistress should come before his social obligations to May.

21:38 Katie: Newland, caught off guard, fumbles in his speech, but manages to reassure May that he loves her, partially because he is definitely over his former mistress, but he doesn't tell her he's in love with someone else. Right.

21:53 Anthony: He's not lying.

21:55 Katie: Right. He's just omitting a pretty major factor. As soon as May is reassured, she returns to her usual complacency.

22:03 Anthony: Upon returning to New York, Newland calls on Mrs. Mingott at her home. As they banter, Ellen appears and joins the conversation. As Archer leaves, he asks if he can visit her the next evening. When Archer arrives the next evening, he finds her aunt, Medora Manson, and Medora's gentleman friend assembled in Countess Olenska's living room. Uh-oh, another potential dead man.

22:22 Katie: Oh man, he better run away.

22:24 Frank: Right, exactly. Well, he didn't marry her. Oh, okay, all right. Anthony, tell me a little bit more about Medora Manson.

22:30 Anthony: As a Manson, she is connected by blood to some of the most influential families. However, she is considered a hopeless cause because of her odd, faddish ideas and her multitudinous husbands. Madora, then, is forced to remain on the edges of good society, where her eccentricities can be more easily ignored. But for all her own questionable qualities, she has the practical understanding of Ellen's marital problems that Archer lacks.

22:54 Katie: After Archer proclaims dramatically that he would rather see Ellen dead than return to her husband, Medora forces him to reflect upon the difficult options Ellen faces. Either she can return to her abusive husband, remain married and separated in New York where she will be courted by men looking for a mistress, or she can divorce and cause great amounts of gossip.

23:16 Anthony: At that moment, Ellen enters the room. After Medora leaves, they discuss Olenski's request, which Ellen dismisses. They also discuss Archer's engagement to May, and May's fears that there is another woman. Archer confesses that May is correct, and that it is Ellen he would marry, if it were possible for either of them. Ellen responds that it is Archer that has made a marriage between them impossible, for she had nothing to fear from Count Olenski's letter, and she decided not to sue for divorce, only because Archer himself told her she could.

23:49 Katie: Archer is astonished. For a moment, he tries to convince Ellen that there is still time and that he can break his engagement and she can divorce. She refuses, responding that it was Archer himself who taught her that one's personal happiness should never come at the expense of pain for others. Just then, a telegram arrives from May stating that the Wellens have consented to push forward the wedding date.

24:14 Frank: So readers, that telegram ends Book 1 of our novel, so let's take a break here, and when we come back, we'll continue our conversation with Book 2. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Novel Conversations. Today I'm having a conversation about The Age of Innocence by Edith Wharton. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Elizabeth Flood and Anthony Mahramus. Alright readers, when we left, we finished talking about Book 1 with the news that May and her family had agreed to move up the date of their wedding. Book 2 opens on Archer's wedding day, as he waits for his bride's carriage to arrive at the church. In this transition, Wharton dramatically breaks the flow of the novel's narrative. There's little connection between these two scenes. Nothing is mentioned about the preparation for the wedding or Archer's jitters as he prepares to marry a woman he feels is unsuited for him. Because of this jerky transition, the reader feels slightly bewildered by the rush of all the wedding events. And this allows us to empathize with Archer, who suddenly finds himself helpless in the midst of this life-changing experience. Because Archer feels so unable to stop or control his own wedding, he feels that it is inevitable.

25:32 Anthony: The ceremony passes before Archer as a complete blur, and amidst the marriage vows, he thinks hazily of Ellen. After the wedding, the Archers travel to Europe for their honeymoon. May is concerned that she will be required to visit Archer's foreign acquaintances. Her anxiety, we learn, is typical of the old New York crowd, whose fear of Europeans causes them to travel abroad in a state of isolation.

25:54 Katie: In London, Archer is introduced to a person who is the very opposite of May. The French tutor he meets at a dinner party is neither fashionable nor aristocratic, nor rich. But despite his common-looking exterior, he proves to be a vivid and insightful conversationalist. At dinner, he speaks to Archer about the vital importance of maintaining one's own ideas and opinions. For the tutor, preserving one's right to think freely is worth the price of living in poverty.

26:25 Frank: Archer is filled with envy and admiration for this French tutor and wishes to invite him to dinner for a further conversation. But May convinces Arthur not to invite him. In this way, she not only refuses to consider ideas outside her normal experiences, but seems bent on depriving Archer of such intellectual discussions as well.

26:44 Anthony: After their three-month honeymoon, the Archers rejoin Old New York Society in Newport for the annual archery competition. Mae wins first prize, and the Archers visit Mrs. Mingott at her nearby summer home to show her Mae's prize. At Mrs. Mingott's, they learn that Ellen, who has since moved from New York to Washington, is currently visiting Newport with Medora. Mrs. Mingott sends Archer to find her. He sees her near the shore, but decides he will not approach her unless she turns around. She doesn't, and he returns alone.

27:13 Katie: Archer soon finds life in Newport to be predictably dull, and he is forced to find trivial ways to fill up his long and unemployed days. He successfully avoids one of many social obligations by driving out into the country to find a new horse for his carriage. Unsuccessfully in his search, he finds himself with the remainder of his day free. He has had a vague longing to simply see where Ellen has been staying and find out how she has been spending her days. So he decides to visit the house where she has been staying.

27:45 Anthony: No one is home when he arrives at the house, just like with her apartment. He spies a pink parasol that he instantly assumes belongs to Ellen. As he bends to kiss it, he is suddenly interrupted by the daughter of the house. Embarrassed by his foolishness, he inquires as to the whereabouts of Ellen. The girl informs him that she was unexpectedly called away to Boston the day before.

28:04 Katie: Back at the Wellands, he announces to May that he will leave for Boston the following day on business. In Boston, Archer spies Ellen sitting in the common. Surprised to see him, she relates that she is there on business. Her husband is willing to pay a considerable price to have her return to him, and she has until that evening to decide how to respond to his offer.

28:27 Anthony: Archer convinces Ellen to spend the day with him. She asks him why he didn't fetch her at the shore that day in Newport. When he answers that it was because she didn't turn around, she responds that she didn't turn around on purpose. Archer is pleased. At the beach, he had wondered why she didn't turn around, for if he were in her position, he would have sensed her presence. Yet the revelation that Ellen had indeed known he was there adds a dimension to the already symbolic scene.

28:54 Katie: They discuss Archer's marriage and Ellen claims that she is glad that at least May is happy. Archer responds bitterly that Ellen gave him his first taste of real life at the same time that she asked him to continue a sham life with May. Ellen bursts into tears, confirming that she too has been miserable with their separation. Ellen promises that she will not return to her husband or to Europe as long as she and Newland do not act upon their love for one another.

29:23 Anthony: Now reunited with Ellen in Boston, Archer finds himself passionately in love with her. These sentiments, however, are remarkably different from the strong feelings he once held for May. While Archer was infatuated with May's youthful beauty, his love for Ellen is not based nearly so much on physical appearances. His love for Ellen is based just as much on an intellectual and emotional level as it is on a physical level. It is this, Wharton implies, that distinguishes him from randy adulterers like Larry Lefferts.

29:51 Katie: Despite his failure to extract any more than a tenuous promise from Ellen, Archer is nonetheless comforted by their agreement and returns the next day to New York. As he arrives at the train station, he is surprised to meet the French tutor he had met abroad in London. and he invites the young man to call on him that afternoon. In Archer's office, the tutor relates that he had seen Archer the day before in Boston. He informs Archer that he was there to speak with Ellen on behalf of Count Olenski. Despite his connection with the Count, however, the tutor firmly believes that Ellen should not return to him and asks Archer to persuade the Mingott family to change their mind regarding the issue.

30:31 Frank: With the appearance of the French Tudor, Wharton returns to an issue that was mentioned earlier in the novel, but not resolved—Ellen Olinsky's supposed affair. We learn from the Tudor's speech that he has known the Count and Ellen for many years. Her husband, the Count, had claimed in his letter that her lover was his secretary. Realizing that the French Tudor was sent by Count Olinsky, Archer wonders if he is that supposed lover. But even here, Wharton's narration is not omniscient. She does not tell the reader whether or not the tutor is her lover or whether Ellen had a lover at all. We are left knowing as little about the truth as Archer. As a result, it's really difficult for us to judge Ellen's actions here.

31:10 Anthony: Autumn soon arrives, and with it Archer's mother's usual complaints that society has changed in recent years for the worst. Evidence of the societal decay is Beaufort's rumored recent financial problems and the success of Mrs. Lemuel Struthers' vulgar Sunday evening parties. At Thanksgiving dinner, the conversation turns to Ellen Olenska, who was one of the first to attend the Struthers' parties. Ellen has again disappointed the family by refusing to return to her husband. Remaining in Washington with Medora, she is now considered to be a hopeless case. Archer himself has not heard from her for several months.

31:43 Katie: When Sillerton Jackson makes the waggish suggestion that Ellen may lose some financial assistance should Beaufort lose his fortune, Archer angrily responds to this implication of adultery. Unbeknownst to Archer, Ellen's family has greatly reduced her allowance upon her refusal to return to her husband, leaving her almost penniless. Upon returning home, Archer invents an excuse to tell May to justify his going to Washington shortly. While May wishes him a good journey, her eyes indicate that she is quite aware that Archer means to see Ellen there.

32:18 Anthony: Archer's plans to leave for Washington are thwarted by the collapse of Beaufort's business dealings, which promise to be the worst disaster Wall Street has ever seen.

32:26 Frank: Just wait till 29.

32:27 Anthony: Yeah, you've got time. News soon reaches Archer that Mrs. Mingott has had a stroke. When he reaches her home, he's informed of the cause of her stroke.

32:37 Katie: Mrs. Beaufort had been to see Mrs. Mingott the night before and had asked her the impossible, that the family support Beaufort through his financial collapse. Mrs. Mingott had refused, but the shock of Mrs. Beaufort's effrontery was great enough to induce a stroke. Mrs. Mingott requests to see Ellen. May exclaims that it's a pity that her train to New York will cross Archer's train bound for Washington on the way. We are left wondering how much May really knows about Archer's feelings for Ellen.

33:09 Frank: Well, for the reader, Wharton includes a long paragraph in which she interprets what May is really saying with her few words and her smile. In this imagined monologue, May indicates that she knows there has been some talk about Archer and Ellen, and that the only proper thing for her to do is to pretend she's unaware of it. By explicitly telling him to greet Ellen, she reinforces her appearance of ignorance.

33:31 Katie: Archer is directed to send a telegram to Ellen to request her to come to New York. A day later, she responds that she will be arriving from Washington the following evening. After some debate over who will pick her up from the station, Archer offers to meet her.

33:44 Anthony: Of course he does. You're welcome.

33:47 Katie: That evening, May wonders how Archer can possibly meet her when he is planning to be in Washington himself the following day. Uh-oh. He responds that the trial has been postponed, but he realizes that his sloppy attempts to cover his fabrications have not escaped May's notice.

34:06 Frank: She might be ignorant, but she ain't dumb.

34:08 Katie: Nope, nope. She's intelligent.

34:10 Anthony: Meeting Ellen at the train station, Archer is surprised to find that he hardly remembers what Ellen looked like. In the carriage, he mentions that Olenski's emissary, the French tutor, had been to see him in New York. Ellen confirms that it was he who had helped her escape from her husband, but does not give any indication that their relationship went further than this. Archer then expresses to Ellen his own anxieties, that although he does not want a tawdry love affair, he cannot bear to remain apart from her. Ellen responds that it is impossible for them to deceive those who trust them. Archer abruptly stops the carriage and leaves before they reach Mrs. Mingott's.

34:44 Katie: That evening at home, Mae reports to her husband that Mrs. Mingott's health has improved. He morbidly ponders that perhaps Mae will die young and set him free. I was almost wondering if he was planning on helping her die young.

34:59 Anthony: Exactly. In an early dateline,

35:02 Katie: A week later, he calls on Mrs. Mingott, hoping to see Ellen. Mrs. Mingott reveals that Ellen will stay with her to keep her company while she recovers from her stroke. Archer sees this as a sign that Ellen has realized that she cannot remain apart from Archer. Mrs. Mingott asks Archer to support her decision to have Ellen remain at her side and to significantly increase her allowance. Archer immediately agrees.

35:27 Anthony: Archer is stunned upon leaving Mrs. Mingott's. He reasons that Ellen's decision to stay in New York must be an indication that she has resolved to have an affair with him. While Archer is somewhat relieved that she will be staying, he is also afraid that their affair will be no different than those of his peers, and that it will dissolve into a pathetic pack of lies. Yet he consoles himself with the thought that he and Ellen are different from the rest of New York society, and that their unique situation puts them above the judgment of their clan.

35:54 Katie: Yeah, they're gonna have a moral affair.

35:56 Anthony: Exactly. But it might work for us. That evening, he waits in front of Beaufort's house for Ellen, who we learn has come to console Regina Beaufort in the midst of her troubles. They agree to meet the next day at the Metropolitan Museum.

36:09 Katie: And I seem to remember that the family made a huge deal about Ellen being nice to Regina because the rest of the family just kicked Regina to the curb as soon as her husband got into financial trouble. The following day, Archer meets Ellen in the antiquities gallery of the museum. Ellen explains that she has decided to stay near her grandmother because she feels she will be safe there from the temptation of Archer. She begs him not to let them become like the other adulterers they know. Yet, she hesitates and asks him if she should just come to him once and then leave New York. Archer agrees, and they plan to meet again two days later.

36:49 Frank: While in the museum, Archer and Ellen find themselves torn on both an emotional and physical level. While Archer until this point has restrained his erotic feelings, he's now impatient to arrange a more intimate rendezvous with Ellen. Both are still afraid that if their relationship is consummated, there'll be nothing that sets them above the infidelities of Buford and Larry Lefferts. However, Ellen does suggest that they meet once, and that afterwards she will leave him for good. Archer is daunted by the idea of parting permanently, but he recklessly agrees to meet her anyway.

37:20 Anthony: The next night, the van der Luydens host a pre-opera dinner at their exclusive Madison Avenue home. At the opera, Archer feels guilty about his intended tryst with Ellen. At his side, May is wearing her wedding dress, as is the custom per young married women. Archer suddenly feels the urge to confess to her and he persuades May to leave the opera early. Back home, Archer is on the verge of confessing when May interrupts him by mentioning that Ellen has decided to return to Europe. Archer is stunned and excuses himself for bad.

37:49 Frank: In the following scene, the setting shifts to the opera. By returning near the end of the novel to the setting that opened the novel, Warren allows us to compare the two and reflect upon what has changed since that time. On the surface, very little has changed. The same families sit in the same boxes and they still gossip more than they attend to the stage. Ellen Olinsky is still a topic of discussion, and her recent decision to call on Mrs. Buford is greeted with just as much shock as her low-cut dress was a year before.

38:17 Anthony: But now, instead of leaving the opera excited to announce his recent engagement, Archer feels trapped by guilt. Having decided to tell May the truth about his feelings for Ellen and ask for his freedom from their marriage, he persuades May to leave the opera early. As they return home, Wharton includes a small but foreboding symbol. May, who has worn her wedding dress to the opera, now trips and tears its hem. The torn and muddied wedding dress suggests that their marriage is threatened by Archer's feelings for Ellen and that his decision to meet with her sullies the wedding vows he made to May.

38:47 Katie: More than a week passes and Archer has not heard from Ellen since their meeting in the museum. In the meantime, his law office has settled a generous trust fund for Ellen on the request of Mrs. Mingott. May tells Archer that she wishes to give her first formal dinner in honor of the departure of Countess Olenska. At the dinner, Archer notices that the guests are remarkably kind to Ellen now that she is about to leave. With a start, he realizes that the entire clan assumes that he has been having an affair with Ellen for quite some time. Although the guests are too polite to even allude to the affair, their elaborately feigned innocence is to Archer, the surest sign that they suspect an infidelity. Suddenly, the dinner seems to be the disguise for a celebratory sendoff of a member of the Klan who has violated their strict social code. I also suspect that that might be why they really wanted Ellen to go back to her husband.

39:47 Frank: To save their marriage, the other marriage, right?

39:49 Anthony: The guests finally leave after paying their warmest respects to Ellen. Alone in his library, Archer and May discuss the success of the evening. Archer has again resolved to tell May of his feelings for Ellen when she reveals to him that she is pregnant. She tells him that she wasn't positive until that morning, but that she had told Ellen in their long conversation two weeks earlier that she was pregnant.

40:09 Frank: Right about the time Ellen decided to leave New York and go back to Europe. And quickly in our novel, it's now 25 years later and the world has changed significantly. Archer is now considered to be a model citizen, a philanthropist, and a dutiful father. We learn that May had died from pneumonia two years earlier after nursing their youngest child back to health. Archer had remained a dutiful husband throughout the rest of their marriage, and May died no less innocent of the world than at her youth. The memory of Ellen Olenska has kept Archer from pursuing other women.

40:41 Katie: Archer's eldest son Dallas convinces him to accompany him to Paris for a few weeks. Once there, he surprises Archer by informing him that they are to visit the Countess Olenska at her Paris apartment. Dallas asks Archer if it was true that he had once been in love with the Countess. He continues by remarking that May had told him the day before she died that Archer had given up the thing he most wanted when she had asked him to. Emotionally, Archer responds that she had never asked him.

41:13 Anthony: That afternoon, Archer does not join his son in calling on Ellen Oletzka. Down on the street, below her apartment, he visualizes entering her apartment. He decides that she is more real to him and his imagination than if he went up. As Archer stares up at the apartment balcony, a manservant appears at the window and closes the shutters.

41:34 Frank: As I mentioned earlier, between chapters 33 and 34, there's this chronological gap of about 26 years. By abruptly switching to the turn of the century, I think Wharton indicates the discontinuity of the past with the present. By the time Archer reaches middle age, the world around him has changed dramatically. His children have less leisure time, but more freedoms. and more opportunities than he ever had. This perhaps explains why Archer's life with May, after the announcement of her pregnancy, is told as though it were a history. Even though his life with her is important in explaining his current circumstances, May remains only as a memory of the irretrievable past.

42:13 Katie: Ellen, too, is relegated to the past, to remain a hazy image in Archer's memory. It has been many years since he last saw her at May's dinner party, and he cannot imagine how she must have changed from the young woman he remembers. He wonders, in turn, what Ellen remembers of him. whether or not he only remains in her memory, like a relic in a small dim chapel. Standing on the street below her apartment, he sees how different her life must have become in the last 26 years.

42:44 Frank: Right, and he wonders how the present reality and his own idealized memories of Ellen can possibly connect. In the end, Archer chooses to be left with the memory of Ellen and not Ellen herself. Not seeing the real and now significantly older person allows him, in certain respects, to maintain her as a symbolic presence, an emblem of a wistfulness and regrets of his youth.

43:06 Anthony: This quiet, wistful ending is not what the reader expects. It is neither tragic nor happy, nor is it inevitable. There is now nothing stopping Archer from reuniting with Ellen. He is only in his 50s, he has been widowed, and he is living in a new and liberal age. If Wharton had chosen to have the two characters meet again, there could be two possible outcomes. Either they would passionately reunite, or they would realize that they had changed too much in their time apart. But Wharton does not allow us to see either possibility. By departing from a traditional happy or tragic ending, she frustrates her readers' expectations. As with Archer's and Ellen's unconsummated affair, Wharton leaves the plot incomplete rather than giving it a predictable ending.

43:48 Frank: And readers, so our story ends, as Anthony said, quietly, wistfully, and perhaps we're left with more questions than answers. Now let's take a final break and then head into our last segment where I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or perhaps a quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo. We'll be right back. Welcome back. You've been listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo, and today I had a conversation about Age of Innocence by Edith Wharton. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Elizabeth Flood and Anthony Mahramus. Elizabeth, Anthony, before our break, we ended our story, and now I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or perhaps a quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet. Elizabeth, do you have something for us?

44:45 Katie: I do. At the end of the novel, it's revealed that Archer's son Dallas is going to marry Julius Beaufort's illegitimate daughter. And at this point, things have changed enough in society that everybody is accepting of this and everyone's okay with it. But Archer thinks about how if this was happening in his younger years, it wouldn't have been so accepted. And Archer thinks to himself, Dallas can have whatever he wants. And that really bothered me because technically, Archer could have had everything he wanted. But he, even though in his mind he keeps trying to say like he's against all of these old-fashioned customs, he still abides by them. He does get everything he asks for might not be what he wants but he gets what he asks for and then he's miserable from it because May gives him the chance to break off their engagement. She knows something's up She gives him the chance to break off their engagement and he's like, no, no no, no, I love you. In fact, let's get married ASAP." He keeps asking to make their marriage come sooner. Everyone else is like, hold off, let's, you know, have a longer engagement. No, he wants to get married as soon as they can. And the other thing, too, is that Ellen wants to get a divorce from her husband, and he is the only person that is able to convince her not to get a divorce. And because of those two actions, he doesn't marry Ellen. And he chooses to marry May. And then he's resenting May because she's not, you know, they don't have the eternally passionate marriage that he imagined. So he resents May, even though all of this happened because of his own choices.

46:41 Frank: A lot of bad choices. He made his bed. But he didn't sleep in it with… Yeah, Ellen was not in it.

46:46 Katie: That's true. He tried to, though.

46:49 Anthony: Really thought about it.

46:50 Frank: Anthony, do you have something you wanted to read or share with us?

46:52 Anthony: Yeah, just I have a brief excerpt just from actually from chapter 34 just because it's so fascinating to me, just that jump. It's very jarring and it's almost disappointing because you want to hear more and more and you know everything's different. It's basically over. Um, but we've talked a lot about plot. I just, just her prose, uh, I enjoy right at the top of the chapter says, he had just got back from a big official reception for the inauguration of the new galleries at the Metropolitan Museum and the spectacle of those great spaces crowded with the spoils of the ages where the throng of fashion circulated through a series of scientifically cataloged treasures had suddenly pressed on a rusted spring of memory. I mean, that's, It's a lot, but it paints a picture. I just see the paintbrush going back and forth. And then later, he met someone, makes a comment, and he said he heard someone say it, and instantly everything about him vanished. And he was sitting alone on a hard leather divan against the radiator, while a slight figure in a long seal skin cloak moved away down the meagerly fitted vista of the old museum. So it's just, you know, it's taken back, but it's a very visceral description of suddenly it vanished, and you see it.

47:59 Frank: And Anthony, I sort of focused on Edith Wharton's words as well, how she paints these pictures with her words. We haven't really mentioned her use of death imagery in this story, but it does… I wouldn't say it's frequent, but it does show up once in a while, and I think I understand what Wharton was trying to get at. She describes the van der Luydens as a harmless old couple, but in her description she uses, as I said, a lot of death imagery. Louisa van der Luyden looks like she was rather gruesomely preserved in the airless atmosphere of a perfectly irreproachable existence. And this is really not unlike the way Wharton sees Mrs. Mingott as a doomed city. trapped under her own weight. In both these cases, I would argue that Wharton's juxtaposition of authority figures with death imagery indicates the ineffectual nature of their power. Ruled by such archaic individuals, old New York society potentially faces a waning of power itself, or even its existence." And that sort of had a powerful impact on me, where she's taking New York society essentially to their demise. Elizabeth, did you have anything else?

49:08 Katie: I know at the one point where Ellen and Archer are talking about whether Archer should break off the engagement and Ellen saying, no, no, don't break it off. Ellen is trying to do the right thing in her mind. She's trying to do what will make May happy. by having Mae marry Archer, but I think that was a mistake because Mae is not going to have the happiest marriage that she could if she marries a man who's not in love with her. So although Ellen is trying to be sacrificial and trying to give up what she wants for the sake of May, unfortunately and very sadly, that's not going to make May truly happy. And really, whether or not Archer and Ellen got together, I think Archer should have broken off that engagement when May asked him to. Because truly, she saw the writing on the wall. She saw that he wasn't still in love with her.

50:09 Frank: I think you're right about what Archer should have done. And I would also argue that Ellen saw the writing on the wall. She knew that once she came back from Europe and came to New York, she was the cause of lots of problems within her family. A lot of relationships were torn apart. A lot of relationships were changed. And I think she feels, as you said, she's gonna try to do the right thing to make amends to her family for bringing all of this dishonor upon them. she's going to leave and she's not going to get involved with Archer and try to rehabilitate the marriage between May and Archer. I think she's trying to be that selfless person. But as you said, it does not give a happy life to May or Ellen or Archer. All right, so this is a great way to end our conversation today about The Age of Innocence by Edith Wharton. Elizabeth, Anthony, I want to thank you both again for coming in and having this conversation with me today. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Oh, yes. Yeah, it was very enjoyable.

51:08 Katie: Great conversation.

51:10 Frank: I'm Frank Lavallo, and you've been listening to Novel Conversations. Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find us on Instagram at NovelConversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and in anything else we've got in the works. I want to give special thanks to our readers today, Elizabeth Flood and Anthony Moremus. Our sound designer and producer is Noah Foutz, and Gray Sienna Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Brigid Coyne and Joan Andrews. I'm Frank Lavallo. Thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation all your own.