"And Then There Were None" by Agatha Christie

Frank:

Hello, and welcome to Novel Conversations, a podcast about the world's greatest stories. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, and for each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book. And together, we summarize the story for you. We introduce you to the characters, we tell you what happens to them, and we read from the book along the way. So, if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place. This episode's conversation is about the novel, And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Elizabeth Flood and Phil Setnik. Elizabeth, Phil, welcome.

Elizabeth:

Hi, Frank.

Phil:

Thanks Frank. Nice to be here.

Frank:

Glad to have you both here. Before we get started, I want to give you a quick summary of And Then There Were None, written by Agatha Christie and published in England in 1939 as Ten Little Indians, And Then There Were None is the story of 10 strangers separately lured to a mansion on remote Soldier Island with promises of adventure, work, or just a relaxing holiday. Unmet by any host or hostess, their curiosity turns to fear when a hidden recording accuses each guest and employee of deadly crimes/ the fear quickly turns to panic as the guests one by one start to die, some mysteriously, and some of obvious causes. And all this, as little toy soldier statues disappear one by one from a display in the main parlor, according to a poem written by Frank Green in 1869. Well, readers, we certainly have quite a cast of characters in today's novel.

Let's introduce them as we meet them in the reading. But first, we should explain why these characters have come together in our story. They've all been invited to Soldier Island, some to work, some to vacation, and some for, well, no one really knows. So Phil, tell us a little bit about Soldier Island.

Phil:

Happy to, Frank. So, Soldier Island is basically a big rock off the coast of Devon in England. And it's accessible only by a boat. It's got very little on it, except for some cliffs that are rather difficult to get up and down, some small amount of beach area, a place to land a boat. And then someone bought it and built a mansion on it.

Frank:

A modern mansion.

Phil:

A modern mansion, right? The ownership of that is a little bit in question these days, and there's a lot of speculation about who that might be.

Elizabeth:

Yes, everyone knows it must be some amazingly rich millionaire, but no one knows who it is. Some people think it might be a celebrity, but it's all speculation.

Frank:

There's a lot of speculating going on there. And one more thing, who did I think invited them there and why?

Phil:

So, they were invited by someone named Owen, either Mr. N Owen, Una Nancy Owen, and so on. And they're all invited there under various pretexts, some of them because they think they're going to meet somebody they knew in the past and get together after many years, things like that. Others had different reasons for being invited that we find out later in the story.

Frank:

And with that beginning, let's introduce some of our characters, strangers to each other, at least for the moment. Who's the first character we meet?

Elizabeth:

Mr. Justice Wargrave, who is an elderly judge, known as a hanging judge.

Frank:

You're right. He is called the hanging judge. And Phil, the second character we meet?

Phil:

We meet Vera Claythorne. She's traveling in third class, and that tells us a little bit about her economic situation. She's a teacher.

Frank:

Right.

Phil:

And there's reference made to a corner inquest into someone she knew named Hugo, and she thinks about Hugo in a wistful loving way. So, we'll learn more about Hugo later on, but she has been hired to be Mrs. Owens secretary.

Frank:

All right. Our third character, Captain Phillip Lombard.

Elizabeth:

Yes. Captain Philip Lombard is sitting across from Vera Claythorne, and she immediately feels unnerved by him. He's a rather cruel and arrogant looking man.

Frank:

I'd like the line though, that he's a good man in a tight place.

Elizabeth:

Yes.

Frank:

And our fourth character, Miss Emily Brent.

Phil:

Miss Emily Brent is 65 years old, also traveling in third class. She is said to be enveloped in an aura of righteousness and unyielding at principle. She is a very religious, very strict, puritanical kind of person who thinks she's getting a free vacation, and she believes she deserves it.

Frank:

Phil, I like that word, puritanical. That is a very good description of Miss Brent. Our next character, general MacArthur, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth:

General MacArthur was a former general. We don't get a whole lot of information about him, but he ends up seeming a little bit off to the other passengers, maybe losing his mind a little bit.

Frank:

And a lot like Vera Claythorne. He seems to be ruminating or thinking about his past, some gentleman named Armitage. He says, clearly, Armitage must have talked.

Elizabeth:

Exactly, but it was almost 30 years ago, so it's something he's trying to put in the past.

Frank:

Our sixth character, Dr. Armstrong, he arrives driving a car eventually.

Phil:

He's making his way to the meeting place for the trip out to the island, and he has a history about him, as many of our characters do. There was something about him possibly drinking on the job, he mentions in his drive. And he's almost driven off the road by our next character.

Frank:

And Dr. Armstrong thinks he's been invited as some sort of medical expert or to perhaps provide some medical advice to one of the other guests.

Phil:

Yeah, that rings a bell. Yeah.

Frank:

And Phil, you mentioned our next character, Tony Marston.

Phil:

Tony Marston, a young playboy driving a very fast car, goes around to Dr. Armstrong, commenting gruffly about how people just think they have all the time in the world. He's going on a vacation. He winds up getting to the meeting place just ahead of the doctor, even though he sped ahead of him. Dr. Armstrong thought he was being kind of reckless.

Frank:

And unlike some of our other characters, he's not thinking about anything.

Phil:

No, he's just going to have a good time.

Frank:

The final character we meet on their way to the island is a Mr. Blore.

Phil:

When you first meet Mr. Blore, he has a list. And what he says about it is, "Hmm, seems to be an easy enough job," but we don't know what that job is.

Frank:

And finally, our last two characters, we meet them on the island.

Elizabeth:

Right. This is the Butler and his wife. They're the only two servants who are at the mansion. In fact, they're the only people at the mansion at all.

Frank:

Once all our guests arrive.

Elizabeth:

Right.

Frank:

And Phil, right after we meet Blore and he reads his list of the coming guests, we have a couple of instances of foreshadowing, I think. Did you want to maybe give us one of those?

Phil:

As they get up to the meeting place, the train station where they're going to catch a boat out to the island, there's an old man who is sitting in the corner of the train station, talks about that it's going to be bad weather, and he says there's a squall coming. And he says, "There's a squall ahead. I can smell it." Mr. Blore says, "Maybe you're right." And the old man says, "Watch and pray. Watch and pray. The day of judgment is at hand." And he turns to Mr. Blore, and he says, "I'm talking to you young man. The day of judgment is very close at hand." Mr. Blore thinks to himself that this old man is near the day of judgment than he is, but there as it happens, he was wrong.

Frank:

That's our final line in that chapter, he was wrong. With that start, why don't we take a break here. And when we come back, we'll talk about how our characters slowly and carefully start to meet each other. You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back.

Welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, and today I'm having a conversation about the novel And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie. All right, guys. Before our break, I said that our characters would slowly and carefully start to meet each other. The assembled group takes taxis from the train station to the docks where a boat is waiting to take them to Soldier Island.

Elizabeth:

Yes. And they say that there are two gentlemen who are arriving by car, and one of them is Tony Marston, who makes quite the eye catching, exciting entrance, roaring down the road in his fancy sports car. Really gets a lot of looks from the other guests.

Frank:

Phil, there's actually a pretty good quote about Tony Marston and the notice that he receives.

Phil:

It mentions that at the wheel sat a young man, his hair blown back by the wind. In the blaze of the evening light, he looked not a man but a young God, a hero God out of some northern saga. It was a fantastic moment. In it, Anthony Marston seemed to be something more than mortal. Afterwards, more than one of those present remembered that moment.

Frank:

Again, I think maybe perhaps a moment of foreshadowing.

Phil:

Just a bit.

Frank:

All right, tell me about the boat than the captain, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth:

Fred Narracott is the captain of the boat, which is a rather small boat, as Miss Emily Brent mentions.

Frank:

But he quickly defends his boat. "It's large enough for this group," he says.

Elizabeth:

Of course.

Frank:

"I've taken bigger groups before to the island."

Phil:

And the captain thinks it's a queer group. He has not met his employer, Mr. Owen, but he also thinks that... It's not like the old days when they had parties, the celebrity who had owned the island before had parties. And this group is nothing like that. These people don't belong with celebrities.

Elizabeth:

And they also don't seem to belong with each other.

Frank:

I agree with you there. There's quite a varied group we have here.

Elizabeth:

Yeah.

Frank:

But Elizabeth, almost right away, we do get a pretty clear picture of at least two of the guests, Vera Claythorne and Anthony Marston. Tell me about Vera Claythorne.

Elizabeth:

Vera Claythorne works at a girl's school, but she is just doing this secretary job during the holiday for now. And she has been troubled by something that happened in her past, some sort of accident when she was a governs, but we don't know the whole history yet.

Frank:

And she continues though, to insist to anyone that will listen to her, "I've been hired. I'm here to be Mrs. Owen's secretary. I have a job on the island."

Elizabeth:

Exactly.

Frank:

And once we get to the island, we quickly meet two people that actually do have a job on the island. We meet the characters. Mr. And Mrs. Rogers. Phil, who are they?

Phil:

Mr. And Mrs. Rogers are a couple that take care of everything in the house, were employed by the Owens, but have not met them. The butler and the maid want to make their guests feel better and they want to make them feel at home. And even though the Owens are delayed, they were told to make the guests comfortable and to take care of all of their needs.

Elizabeth:

And Vera notices that Mrs. Rogers constantly looks terrified.

Frank:

But the fact that there is a butler and a maid on this island does make the guests feel a little bit more comfortable. They have been expected and there are some plans for them. But they don't know their employers either, right? No one seems to know who this Ms. Owen or Mr. Owen characters are at the moment. All right. And as the guests settle into their rooms, we discover that each room has a copy of a poem called The Soldier Poem.

Phil:

That's right. And this is a poem that was written in 1869 by a fellow named Frank Green.

Frank:

Let me stop you there, Phil. Do you want to read us a few stanzas from the poem, and then I'll have Elizabeth finish up?

Phil:

Ten little soldier boys went out to dine. One choked his little self, and then there were nine. Nine little soldier boys sat up very late. One overslept himself, and then there were eight. Eight little soldier boys traveling in Devon. One said he'd stay there, and then there were seven. Seven little soldier boys chopping up sticks. One chopped himself in halves, and then there were six. Six little soldier boys playing with a hive. A bumblebee stung one, and then there were five.

Frank:

Elizabeth, you want to pick up?

Elizabeth:

Five little soldier boys going in for law. One got in chancery, and then there were four. Four little soldier boys going out to sea, a red herrings swallowed one, and then there were three. Three little soldier boys walking in the zoo. A big bear hugged one, and then there were two. Two little soldier boys sitting in the sun. One got frizzled up, and then there was one. One little soldier boy left all alone. He went and hanged himself, and then there were none.

Frank:

Well, that's not a very happy poem, is it?

Phil:

I don't think so.

Frank:

Well, good. I'm glad I asked the question.

Phil:

I had to think about it for a minute, but yeah.

Frank:

And now finally, we meet our last character, Dr. Armstrong. He's a late arrival to the party.

Phil:

As we mentioned earlier, the reason he was late to the party is because he was run off the road by a fast driving sports car driven by Tony Marston, as we learned earlier.

Elizabeth:

Armstrong sees Justice Wargrave and remembers him and realizes he had given evidence at a court case that Justice Wargrave was presiding over.

Frank:

And does Wargrave recognize Armstrong?

Elizabeth:

Yes. He remembers him in the witness box. Calls him very correct and cautious.

Frank:

Okay, so that's interesting. At least two of the characters may have some pass together. And Phil, our novel quickly moves to after their first dinner.

Phil:

Yeah, it was a good dinner. They were relaxed and they were drinking... The food had been good, the wine perfect. Rogers was an excellent waiter, and everyone was in better spirits. So, they had kind of settled into the place and were feeling a bit better about things. And there were people chatting and talking. And Anthony Marston said suddenly, "Quaint, these things, aren't they?" What is he talking about? In the middle of the table, there was a set of 10 toy soldiers, ceramic toy soldiers and a glass stand.

Frank:

And as they talk about these soldiers, they quickly realize that each of them have a copy of the poem that we just read in their rooms. But now, Elizabeth, quickly, the curiosity turns to fear.

Elizabeth:

They go into the parlor for their after dinner drinks, brandy and whatnot, and suddenly a voice comes out.

Frank:

And they call it that, the voice.

Elizabeth:

The voice. Yes. Everyone is startled and the voice starts listing out each person's name and what crime they have supposedly committed.

Phil:

Yeah. In each of the cases that the voice speaks about each one of the participants on the island, including the Rogers. They're accused of being responsible for, directly or indirectly, the death of someone.

Elizabeth:

Somebody was the responsible for more than one death.

Phil:

Right. For example, Philip Lombard is accused of the death of 21 men, members of an East African tribe. And it doesn't give the circumstances of any of these deaths, by the way.

Frank:

Just accusations.

Phil:

Exactly. Just the accusation, the date, the people involved and the crime.

Frank:

And then to add to the fear, once the voice stops-

Phil:

Mrs. Rogers, she faints. And that was according to Dr. Armstrong, that she had just passed out from shock from this. And she was revived with a bit of brandy.

Frank:

Brandy will always do that for you. And once Mrs. Rogers recovers, their attention is quickly brought back to the voice. They go looking for, where did this voice come from?

Elizabeth:

Yeah. They eventually find a gramophone hidden, and it was playing a record, which it turns out, Rogers was the one who started the gramophone, but he claims he did not know what was on the record.

Frank:

He says he was ordered by whoever this Mr. Owen is to play the record after dinner.

Elizabeth:

Exactly.

Frank:

Once the gramophone is discovered, the judge suggests that Mr. Rogers take his wife to the room with Dr. Armstrong, who gives her a sedative to sleep. And Marston, of course, wants a drink. They all want to drink.

Phil:

And they continue to question Rogers about Owen. And he says they they'd never met. All of the instructions were by letter.

Elizabeth:

Justice Wargrave sort of takes authority, takes charge of the situation right from the get go. And he is the oldest person there.

Phil:

And as a judge, he would've had experience with questioning people and so on.

Elizabeth:

Taking charge.

Phil:

It seems like a very natural progression for him to be in charge of the goings on there.

Frank:

And Elizabeth, as their discussion continues-

Elizabeth:

They realize that all of them were invited by someone with the initials U.N. Owen. But some of them were invited by a woman Una Nancy Owen, and some were by a man, Ulick Norman Owen. And they eventually realized U.N. Owen sounds a little bit like unknown.

Frank:

Unknown. Right. Unknown. So, nobody knows who invited them, no one knows who employed them. We have a mystery on our hands.

Phil:

Right. They realize they were all lured there by false means, meetings with someone from their past, the possibility of someone that they know being there, a party being on the island.

Elizabeth:

Being hire.

Phil:

Or being hired.

Frank:

And Phil, they quickly discover that one of the characters is actually going under an assumed name.

Phil:

Exactly. The character we know as Blore had given a false name to everyone else. And we talked about earlier, he was looking at and looking at it seems like an easy enough job. Turns out he was hired to be a detective, spying at others, and he's a former police officer.

Frank:

And we don't really know what he's spying for though at the moment.

Phil:

We do not.

Elizabeth:

He claims he was there to guard Mrs. Owen's jewels.

Frank:

Right. And of course, we don't have a Mrs. Owen and-

Elizabeth:

Probably no she's jewels.

Frank:

[inaudible 00:17:47] got any jewels. Right. And Elizabeth, as you said, the judge continues to take charge. He makes a couple of statements.

Elizabeth:

The judge has everybody bring out the letters that invited them. And he points out that whoever set all this up knows quite a bit about each of these guests, even though the guests don't know who this person is.

Frank:

And he throws this letter on the table, and he states, "I remember the case they've mentioned, I was just following the law."

Elizabeth:

He ordered a man to be hanged, which many people believed was innocent.

Phil:

And it was an interesting note that in an English court, the judge gives a summation of the case, and he has a great deal of influence over the decisions of the jury.

Elizabeth:

Yes.

Phil:

And it was believed that he admonished the jury. The jury was going to let this guy off, and he admonished the jury to find this person guilty, either directly or indirectly. And that's how the law works in England. The judge gets to deliver a summation like that.

Frank:

But Elizabeth, Dr. Armstrong's not buying this story, is he?

Elizabeth:

No, because Dr. Armstrong was one of the people that gave evidence at the trial, and he was pretty confident that the man was innocent.

Frank:

So, he thinks the judge is lying.

Elizabeth:

Yes.

Frank:

But Phil, the judge is not the only one who discusses these claims, these accusations. Some of the others start to, let's not say confess, but admit to some of the facts.

Elizabeth:

Yeah. Vera Claythorne confesses that a child that she was supposed to be caring for decided to swim out into the ocean while she was distracted, and she tried to save him, but it was too late. But nobody put any blame on her at the time, even though there was an inquest. Everyone realized she had made a valiant effort trying to swim out and save him.

Frank:

I think Elizabeth, we can probably say that about most of our characters. Although the voice has accused them of various crimes, none of these guests, none of these people were actually ever convicted of a crime or even maybe charged with a crime.

Elizabeth:

Exactly.

Frank:

Most of these people got away with, if we could use that phrase, with whatever the voice has accused them of.

Elizabeth:

Because they all have an excuse for whatever happened.

Phil:

Right. So, they all start making confessions to parts of the accusations, but they deny any and all criminality. The only one who doesn't-

Elizabeth:

... is Miss Brent, who of course, is above all this and has nothing to say. She's completely innocent. She doesn't want to partake in this.

Frank:

But these guests are fearful. They're concerned, and they all decide, let's just get off this island and go away.

Elizabeth:

But the Rogers say, "Well, there's no one here to take you anywhere. The boat won't be here until the morning."

Frank:

So, they all must wait. But then, as I mentioned, the fear now turns to panic.

Phil:

Why does it turn to panic? Because all of a sudden, Anthony Marston, playboy, seemingly immortal, drops dead choking. Was he poisoned? Was it a suicide?

Elizabeth:

It appears that he simply drank his drink too quickly and choked on it. It went down the wrong pipe. But everyone's saying it's impossible somebody could die from that.

Frank:

But they taste the liquor. They check out the other bottles. Apparently-

Elizabeth:

There was poison in his glass, but the bottles seem to be untouched.

Frank:

Interesting. Interesting. And of course, they're unnerved by the death of Anthony Marston, so everyone wants to retire quickly to their rooms, lock their doors, and retire for the night. But Elizabeth, Mr. Rogers notices something.

Elizabeth:

He notices that there's a soldier missing from the middle of the dining room table. There used to be ten, now there's only nine.

Frank:

Now, there's only nine. And the tenth one will choke himself to death. Was that the poem?

Elizabeth:

Yes. The one choked his little self was the first soldier to die in the poem.

Frank:

And then there were nine.

Elizabeth:

Yes.

Frank:

Once all the guests are in their rooms, as I mentioned, they continue to ruminate about the accusations from the voice. And some of them, in their heart of hearts, do admit it's possible. I may have done something.

Phil:

Until Dr. Armstrong's thoughts are interrupted by a knocking.

Elizabeth:

It's Rogers. His wife is-

Phil:

Dead.

Frank:

And of course, they have to reveal this fact to the rest of the guests, but they wait until after a hardy breakfast is supplied by Mr. Rogers. And then accusations fly.

Phil:

Most people think Mr. Rogers killed his wife to silence her.

Frank:

What does Rogers think?

Elizabeth:

Well, he thinks that the doctor who gave his wife a sedative might have given her an overdose, either purposely or perhaps accidentally.

Frank:

And Elizabeth, the complications continue.

Elizabeth:

Yes. The boat, which they were promised, never shows up.

Phil:

And now Rogers notices that there are only eight soldiers remaining.

Frank:

At this point, Emily Brent and Vera Claythorne move off to a secluded spot, and they have a conversation about these accusations.

Elizabeth:

They're both convinced that Mr. And Mrs. Rogers were guilty of their accusations.

Phil:

Which makes them wonder which of the other accusations might also be true.

Frank:

But the two women are not. The only ones talking.

Elizabeth:

Dr. Armstrong and Philip Lombard are discussing Judge Wargrave. They're both convinced he was guilty. Armstrong said, sharply, "You believe that story?" Philip Lombard smiled and said, "Oh yes, I believe it. Wargrave murdered Edward Seton all right, murdered him as surely as if he'd stuck a stiletto through him. But he was clever enough to do it from the judge's seat in wig and gown. So in the ordinary way, you can't bring his little crime home to him."

Frank:

And they soon both come to the conclusion that both Marston and Mrs. Rogers were murdered, and they think by this lunatic Owen or whoever this unknown employer is.

Phil:

So, they decided to search the island to find the killer.

Elizabeth:

But as we mentioned before, this house is a modern house. It's not like the stereotypical murder mystery mansion with lots of secret passageways. There's no secret passageways. There's nothing hidden at all. There's no possibility of there being any hidden rooms.

Frank:

They not only search the house, they search the entire island.

Elizabeth:

Yes, it's basically a rock. There's really no place for anybody to hide at all.

Frank:

And so they find nothing.

Elizabeth:

Yeah.

Phil:

But it does [inaudible 00:24:09] that Lombard has a handgun, and they do question Dr. Armstrong about the sedative he gave Mrs. Rogers.

Frank:

But before they can have lunch-

Phil:

Dr. Armstrong alone discovers General MacArthur dead by the water.

Elizabeth:

He claims that General MacArthur was hit on the back of the head by a life preserver.

Phil:

A fact questioned by the judge.

Frank:

I'm glad you mentioned the judge. Again, he seems to take charge of the situation.

Phil:

There was no doubt. Now who was in charge of the situation. This morning, Wargrave had sat huddled in his chair in the terrace refraining from any overt activity. Now, he assumed command with the ease born of a long habit of authority. He definitely presided over the court. Clearing his throat, he once more spoke, "This morning, gentleman, whilst I was sitting on the terrace, I was an observer of your activities that could be little out of your purpose. You were searching the island for an unknown murderer." And of course, the question goes on from there.

Elizabeth:

The conclusion that the judge comes to is that there is nobody else on that island other than the ten of them, so the killer must be one of them.

Frank:

And that's a very disconcerting conclusion that the judge reaches.

Elizabeth:

Indeed.

Frank:

And back to the statues.

Elizabeth:

There are only seven.

Frank:

Three are gone now. We lost Anthony Marston, we lost Mrs. Rogers, now we've lost the General. At this point, a rather lengthy discussion occurs. It's led by the judge. It takes place where the remaining characters claim alibis, and they make charges against each other for the three deaths. So, I was here, I couldn't have done this, but the doctor had access to the medicines, and he was alone with Mrs. Rogers. And by the way, he was alone with the general. So, everyone's got alibis and everyone's got accusations.

Elizabeth:

And the judge comes to the conclusion that it is possible that any single one of them could be guilty. Nobody is proven innocent so far.

Phil:

The judge gives a summation, so to speak. It's not really a court of law, but as I mentioned before, the judge has the opportunity to make this summation. While it's probability in some cases against certain people being implicated, yet we cannot say definitely that any one person would be considered as cleared of all complicity.

Frank:

And Elizabeth, as if all the deaths and the mysteries and the dangers were not enough-

Elizabeth:

It starts to rain and storm. And they realize it might be a while, even days before anybody is going to come over in a boat to help the.

Phil:

There was a comment early on in the story that Fred Narracott, the captain of the boat, mentioned that there is no way to land a boat on Soldier Island during a storm.

Frank:

So, no help's going to be coming anytime soon.

Phil:

Exactly.

Elizabeth:

So, it seems perhaps this island has been chosen very specifically by whomever set this up.

Frank:

And the guests continue to watch each other very carefully. They eat their meals routinely now, and eventually several go off to bed, careful to bolt and lock their doors. But in the morning-

Phil:

Rogers is missing.

Frank:

The butler.

Phil:

Yes, the butler, who didn't do it this time, he's found dead with an ax to the back of his head. And when we look at the table, only six soldiers remain.

Frank:

And what was the line from our poem?

Elizabeth:

Seven little soldier boys chopping up sticks. One chopped himself in halves, and then there were six.

Frank:

And there's a discussion. Who could have done this? Who could have wielded this ax?

Elizabeth:

And some people try to say, oh, well, it certainly couldn't be one of the two women, but then we get to them discussing Lizzie Borden.

Frank:

Yeah, an old American case where a woman killed her father and her mother with an ax. And they're aware that certainly, a woman could wield that ax.

Elizabeth:

And interestingly enough, she was also somebody that got away with it, so to speak.

Frank:

You're right. You're right. Now that you mentioned that.

Phil:

Yep.

Frank:

The discussion continues, the alibis and accusations fly, except-

Phil:

Based on the previous discussion about it's possible that a woman could have done this kind of murder, they both start thinking, the two women, Vera and Emily, start thinking about the crimes they've been accused of.

Frank:

And again, all our guests sit down to now a [inaudible 00:28:05] breakfast. They're not really interested in their food anymore. They're just going through the motions.

Phil:

They don't seem to miss a meal though.

Frank:

No, you're right about that.

Phil:

And then the judge takes charge again.

Frank:

Right. He calls a meeting, but not everyone attends.

Elizabeth:

Emily Brent is missing. And you can probably guess, she's dead.

Frank:

What killed Miss Brent, Elizabeth?

Elizabeth:

She was stung by a syringe.

Frank:

Stung? Huh? Isn't that the beeline from our poem?

Elizabeth:

Yes. Even as she is dying, she does hear a buzzing sound. There was a bee in the room, but the bee was not what actually killed her.

Frank:

She is stung by a-

Elizabeth:

Syringe.

Frank:

A syringe. And who has access to syringes, we think?

Elizabeth:

Doctors.

Frank:

Doctors. Dr. Armstrong. The line from the poem was, "Six little soldier boys playing with a hive. A bumblebee stung one, and then there were five." And that's where we are now. We've got five left.

Phil:

And they accuse Dr. Armstrong. They question Dr. Armstrong, does he have a syringe? He says, "Of course, I'm a doctor." And they go to look for it. And he says, "It's in my room in my suitcase." And they go up there, and of course, the syringe is missing.

Elizabeth:

Now, he's looking pretty suspicious because he had sedative as well.

Frank:

Again, right. He was alone with Mrs. Rogers. She dies. He was alone with General MacArthur. He dies. Now, a syringe of his is used in the death of Miss Emily Brent. It is looking not so good for Dr. Armstrong, is it?

Phil:

But he objects violently that it was taken. Somebody must have taken it.

Frank:

And so the judge decides, fine, but we're going to collect all the drugs in the house and we're going to put them behind lock and key.

Phil:

Not only do they find that Dr. Dr. Armstrong's syringe is missing, but so is Philip Lombard's gun. So, they have to continue searching for that as well.

Elizabeth:

They don't find the gun, but they do find the syringe and the little soldier statue, number six.

Frank:

Quickly, Phil and Elizabeth, the guests seemed to change right before our very eyes.

Phil:

Right. Before, they were a bunch of people who were in a difficult situation, but they thought they were in it together. Now, the words, one of us, one of us, one of us kept echoing through their minds, and they turned from people who were in something of a fix together into five people who were watching each other suspiciously and didn't know who possibly could have been the murderer. They just knew that it was one of them.

Elizabeth:

And all of them suddenly looked less like human beings. They were reverting to more bestial types. Like a wary old tortoise. Mr. Justice Wargrave sat hunched up, his body, motionless, his eyes, keen and alert. Ex inspector Blore looked coarser and clumsier and build. His walk was out of a slow padding animal. His eyes were bloodshot. There was a look of mingled ferocity and stupidity about him. It was like a beast at bay, ready to charge its pursuers.

Frank:

And guys, as if it couldn't get any worse, the electricity goes out from the storm.

Phil:

Vera Claythorne has a fright. As she walked into her room, she started to smell the sea, which of course, reminded her of the accusation against her. And then something brushed against her face and she screamed at the top of her lungs, and everyone came running. And it turns out a piece of seaweed had been hung by a hook from the ceiling. And as everyone came up to find out what was wrong with her, they realized-

Elizabeth:

The judge wasn't with them.

Frank:

Well, what happened to... Where's the judge?

Elizabeth:

He's still in the parlor, dead.

Frank:

The judge is dead.

Guys, before we took our break, we mentioned that the judge is dead. Phil, do you want to tell me about what killed the judge and what it looked like?

Phil:

When they came back downstairs to the parlor, they saw an eerie tableau. The judge seated in a chair with candles around him. He was dressed in a red robe and had a gray wig on as though he were presiding over a court. And Dr. Armstrong approached him and saw a red spot on his head and claimed that he'd been shot through the head/

Frank:

Ah, yes, the missing revolver.

Phil:

Exactly. They questioned why they didn't hear a shot, and it's because Vera was screaming and everyone was distracted by that.

Elizabeth:

It still seems a little odd to me. It seems that all of this happened too quickly, especially him being dressed up, all of that. It seemed a little unlikely that that could happen so quickly.

Frank:

Felt a little abrupt to you.

Elizabeth:

Yeah, it seemed like no one would have enough time to do that.

Frank:

Well, but he is dead.

Elizabeth:

He is dead.

Frank:

Now, there are four.

Elizabeth:

Yes.

Frank:

And after that, they all go back to their rooms and go to bed.

Phil:

That's what I would do.

Elizabeth:

Just sleep it off. Until Blore hears noises in the corridor, and he soon realizes Dr. Armstrong is missing. And he gets up to investigate. Lombard and Vera are still in their rooms. He tells them to stay there and keep their doors locked.

Phil:

Well, Dr. Armstrong is still missing.

Elizabeth:

And there are only three soldiers left.

Frank:

But Phil, according to our poem, the death of soldier number three was a red herring.

Phil:

Yeah, the conclusion that they come to with that is that Armstrong's not really dead. He took away the China soldier to make you think he was, a red herring, obviously being something that leads you down the wrong track.

Elizabeth:

So, Blore goes off in search of Armstrong, leaving Mr. Lombard, Miss Claythorne alone. At this point, they're outside of the house because they are afraid of the house. But Blore doesn't return, so they decide to go to the house and see what's going on.

Frank:

And Phil, what do they discover?

Phil:

They discover Blore dead. His head was crushed by a marble clock in the shape of a bear.

Frank:

Ah, yes. Death at the zoo, and then there were two.

Phil:

Well, Dr. Armstrong is still missing.

Frank:

But presumed dead. No?

Elizabeth:

Well, Claythorne and Lombard think that he is the killer. After all, somebody had to push that clock out the window, right? So, they think he must be hiding somewhere. Lombard has the revolver again, and he is determined to search for Armstrong.

Phil:

Not for long.

Frank:

Well, Phil, what do you mean?

Phil:

Well, they find him drowned in the sea.

Frank:

And then there really are two.

Elizabeth:

Vera asks Lombard to help her get Armstrong's body out of the water. At the time, he thinks that she's just doing this out of compassion, but it turns out she's actually doing it so she has the opportunity to pick pocket him.

Frank:

And what does she pick pocket from him?

Elizabeth:

She gets his gun. She shoots him when he lunges at her. And then there was one.

Frank:

Alone with nine bodies.

Elizabeth:

But that doesn't bother her too much. She's just relieved to still be alive.

Phil:

Exactly.

Frank:

But Phil, how do we get to, and then there were none?

Phil:

Well, Vera, in kind of a fugue state in the same moment, she goes up to a room. And remember the hook that had the seaweed on it and the ceiling?

Frank:

Right.

Phil:

Now, she's thinking about the crime that she committed and how she really wanted to get Hugo, the man in her life, back. And he left her. And all of a sudden, hanging from that hook is a noose and a chair. And-

Elizabeth:

She believes that this is what Hugo wants and it's what she deserves, so she goes, climbs up on the chair, and wraps the noose around her neck and kicks the chair down and hangs herself.

Frank:

And then there were none. Okay, Elizabeth, Phil, let's take a final break here, and then head into our last segment where we'll finish our conversation about the novel, And Then There Were None, we'll attempt to solve this mystery. And then I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or a quote or two that we really haven't had a chance to talk about yet. Right now, you're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo. We'll be right back.

And welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo. And today, I'm having a conversation about the novel, And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie, and I'm joined by our novel conversations readers, Elizabeth Flood and Phil Setnik. All right, guys. Before our break, all the guests were dead, but it's not quite the end of the story. So, let's finish the story, and then I'd like to ask the two of you to perhaps share a moment or a character or a quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about. So after the death of Vera Claythorne, the final guest or soldier, if you will, we get essentially two epilogues. Phil, do you want to tell us about the first epilogue?

Phil:

So, they're talking about, again, all of the different killings and how it seemed to be impossible that all of these things could have happened the way that they did, because again, the evidence is somewhat contradictory, right down to, and I'll point out, Vera Claythorne's death where she seemed to hang herself by climbing up on a chair, putting her head a noose and moving the chair out of the way. But the chair had been carefully placed up against the wall as though there were someone else there who put it there. So, it was a classic locked room mystery for the Scotland Yard folks.

Frank:

And the Scotland Yard detectives try to figure out the sequence. They can't decide who died first, who died last. They all put it within a timeframe of 12 to 15 hours, but they can't figure this out.

Phil:

And they do have some points in here about each one of these people had some skeleton in their closet or some degree of unsavory.

Frank:

But Elizabeth, we're still not quite finished. We get a final epilogue, a final chapter. Turns out there was a manuscript fished out of the sea.

Elizabeth:

Right. So, we get this manuscript, which is kind of a manifesto written by whoever set this up. It doesn't take too long to figure out that it was the judge who's writing this manuscript.

Frank:

What does he tell us about his crime?

Elizabeth:

Well, he tells us that he's always had an interest in murder and killing, but he also has a sense of righteousness. So, he knows that he would never kill an innocent person, but he has this great desire to commit the perfect murder. So, he comes up with this whole plan of how to kill people who were responsible for the deaths of others and could not be brought to justice in the regular court way.

Frank:

But Phil, I thought the judge was shot in the head hours and hours ago. That's what the detectives have decided.

Phil:

Exactly. What happened though is that the judge needed to take somebody into his confidence who could... Because they were going to try and find the actual killer. So, the natural candidate, the doctor, because he could decide that the judge was actually dead when the judge wasn't really dead in his chair.

Frank:

It was a, shall we say, red herring.

Phil:

I think that's a great name for it, Frank.

Frank:

With the judge out of the way, he could observe and try to find the real killer secretly.

Phil:

Exactly.

Elizabeth:

One thing I like is that at the very beginning when you first see Armstrong and the judge meeting, the judge thinks to himself, all doctors are fools, is what he thinks to himself. So, perhaps that's why he chose Armstrong as somebody that would be gullible.

Frank:

Right. Even at the beginning of our story, he identifies his pigeon.

Elizabeth:

Yeah.

Frank:

And so that's essentially how our novel, And Then There Were None ends. All right, Phil and Elizabeth, now I'd like to ask the two of you to maybe share a moment or a character or quote that we really haven't had a chance to talk about yet. Elizabeth, do you have something for us?

Elizabeth:

Sure. I think one of my favorite interactions is when Vera Claythorne and Miss Emily Brent are talking to each other. Miss Brent explains what she was accused of, which is that she had a servant girl who got pregnant out of wedlock. And so as a result, because she was so high in mighty, she kicked the girl out. The girl ended up committing suicide as a result because she had nowhere to go. Now, Vera Claythorne is just absolutely horrified by this and thinks that Miss Brent is evil and hypocritical and all these things, and just thinks the absolute worst of it. But then at the end of the story, we find out that Vera Claythorne, who had been claiming this whole time that the child who drowned was an accident, it turned out she planned for him to drown. She encouraged the little boy to go swim out in the sea by himself, knowing that he was not a strong swimmer. And then she waited to go after him so it would look like she was trying to rescue him.

Frank:

Elizabeth, what I really liked about that conversation is the two of them essentially decide everyone else is guilty of the crimes as accused, except us.

Elizabeth:

Exactly.

Frank:

We didn't do it, but they did it. Dr. Armstrong did what he was accused of. The judge did what he was accused of. They're all guilty.

Elizabeth:

Yeah.

Frank:

But not me. Not you.

Elizabeth:

Exactly. Yeah. Claythorne is talking about how self righteous Emily Brent is, but really, she herself is also very self righteous because she's possibly even more guilty because she purposely caused a child's death, rather than indirectly.

Frank:

Phil, how about you? You got something you want to share with us?

Phil:

Well, there's so many good things in here.

Frank:

There sure are.

Phil:

... about all the characters. And every one of them is a particularly tortured soul in some way or another. And the one who brings out for me a little from the others is Dr. Armstrong who is really shown as being just broken up terribly about this incident where he operated on a person when he was drunk. And it haunts him to this day. He hasn't had a drink since then, but it's really made him very vulnerable and very just, I guess, very tortured about what he did. And he knows he did it, and he realizes he was guilty. He probably feels the most guilty about it of anyone in the group.

Frank:

Right. I think you're right. He's the most self-aware about what his early problems were. I'd like to mention one character that we've not talked about at all, but we met him twice in our novel. His name was Isaac Morris. We briefly meet him early at the beginning of the novel. He's the man who lured Philip Lombard to the island with promises of employment and adventure. And then finally, we get a third mention of Isaac Morris in the judge's manuscript, in the judge's confession. He actually confesses to killing Isaac Morris as well before he comes to the island. He fed him some poison and a capsule, telling Isaac Morris it would help him with his indigestion. And Phil, do you remember why the judge wanted to get back at Isaac Morris?

Phil:

Isaac Morris, it turns out, was a, as the judge puts it, a shady little creature. Amongst other things, he was a dope peddler and he was responsible for inducing the daughter of a friend of the judges to take drugs. She committed suicide at the age of 21, so he held Isaac Moore is responsible for that girl's death.

Frank:

Boy, what a way to end our novel and to solve all the mysteries and tie up all the loose ends. It certainly is an amazing story. And with that said, I'd like to end our conversation about And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie. Elizabeth Flood, Phil Setnik, I want to thank both of you for coming in and having this conversation with me today. I hope you enjoyed yourselves.

Elizabeth:

Yes, Frank. It's been a delight. Thank you.

Phil:

A great time, as always.

Frank:

Very good. Very good. I'm Frank Lavallo, and you've been listening to Novel Conversations.

Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five star review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find us on Instagram or Twitter @novelconversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and in anything else we've got in the works. I want to give special thanks to our readers today, Elizabeth Flood and Phil Setnik. Our sound designer and producer is Noah Foutz, and Gray Sienna Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Michael Dealoia and David Allen Moss. I'm Frank Lavallo, and thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation all your own.

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