"Billy Budd" by Herman Melville

Frank:

Hello and welcome to Novel Conversations, a podcast about the world's greatest stories. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, and for each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book. And together, we summarize the story for you. We introduce you to the characters, we tell you what happens to them, and we even read from the book along the way.

So, if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place.

This episode's conversation is about the novel, Billy Budd by Herman Melville. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Elizabeth Flood and Katie Smith.

Elizabeth, Katie, welcome.

Katie:

Thanks, Phil.

Elizabeth:

Thank you. Glad to be here.

Frank:

Glad to have you both here. Before we get started, I want to give you a quick summary about Billy Budd. It was written by Herman Melville and published in 1924, well after his death in 1891.

It's about Billy Budd. Cheerful, hardworking, and handsome, Billy Budd is pressed into naval service aboard a British ship during the Napoleonic Wars. The innocent and lovable young man quickly wins the hearts of all his comrades. Save one, Claggart, the implacably bitter Master at Arms, who falsely accuses Billy of inciting mutiny.

With that introduction, let's talk a little bit about our novel, or probably I should call it a novella. It's not even a hundred pages in my addition. Elizabeth, is this your first time reading Billy Budd?

Elizabeth:

Yes, it is.

Frank:

Katie, how about you? Have you read this book before?

Katie:

No, I haven't. It's my first.

Frank:

Okay, well let's get onto our novel. Once we start reading, we immediately meet our main character, Billy Budd, right as his life is about to change.

Elizabeth, tell me a little bit about Billy Budd and how Melville describes him.

Elizabeth:

Well, he is called throughout the novel, the handsome sailor. And, he's not only extremely good looking, but he's also very good tempered, cheerful, kind to everyone. But, he also knows how to defend himself, if needed.

Frank:

Elizabeth, what does his Captain have to say about him?

Elizabeth:

His Captain calls him the jewel of his men and the peacemaker.

Frank:

Right. All the men really loved him on this first ship, and he was the one who seemed to calm down the men when they would get agitated about something.

Elizabeth:

The other sailors would be doing all kinds of favors for him. Darning his socks, making furniture for him, I think even... They all really liked him.

Frank:

At other points in the book, he's described as having as much masculine beauty as anywhere you would see.

But Katie, as we read the novel, we learn, he does have a blemish, a physical impediment if we will?

Katie:

He doesn't have a physical impediment, but he does have a stutter. And, we also learned that he's a foundling.

Frank:

He is a founding, but his comrades have a thought about where that beauty came from.

Katie:

Yes, noble descent was as evident in him as in a blood horse.

Frank:

So, I guess the presumption is that he was an abandoned child, perhaps the child of a nobleman, and shall we say a maid or a lesser woman?

Katie:

Right. Some aristocracy is definitely in his blood.

Frank:

And evident in his face, as well. All right. But Katie, what about this change in his life that I mentioned?

Katie:

So, he's changing from a merchantman in the rights of manship to the HMS Bellipotent where he's assigned to be a foretopman.

Elizabeth:

He was chosen rather at random. Naval laws at the time, allowed ships at war to take men off of merchant ships, whether or not those men wanted to go to war.

So, Billy was chosen by one of the lieutenants to be taken onto a war ship.

Frank:

And, he's quickly assigned to be a foretopman. What's a foretopman? Anybody?

Katie:

He works on the top deck.

Frank:

Up in, what we'd call, the crow's nest on the sails, at the top of a ship's mast?

Katie:

Right, yeah.

Frank:

And, he likes it up there. He likes that job.

Elizabeth:

Yeah and he actually wasn't upset about being impressed into service, surprisingly.

Katie:

And, I didn't see it so much as random as he was such a good character that he's somebody that they wanted on the war ship.

Frank:

I think the first thing that catches the lieutenant's eye is his appearance. We've already referred to him as the handsome man. And, I think the lieutenant on the warship first notices, I guess we just say his beauty, and then inquires about him with the Captain of the merchantman ship and that's when we get the Captain's story about how good Billy Budd is with his comrades, how he's considered the peacemaker.

And, then Katie, as you had also mentioned, that the comrades go to extremes to take care of Billy Budd. They really think of him, I don't want to say mascot, but he's the favorite on the merchant ship.

Katie:

Right, I think so.

Frank:

Well, Elizabeth, once we get Billy introduced and on his new ship, then the novel takes what I call a digression into British naval history. And, though I do say it's a digression, it really is vital to our plot as the story continues.

Elizabeth:

Yeah, so Melville explains that this is the summer of 1797, and that spring there had been two mutinies. There was a smaller, what he calls commotion, at Spithead. And then there was what they call the great mutiny, which happened in Nor. And, this was a huge problem, especially because this was the worst time for them to have a mutiny.

Frank:

Sure, while you were at war with France.

Elizabeth:

Exactly.

Frank:

This involved a large number of sailors. This wasn't a few disgruntled men on one ship. This involved thousands of men on several different ships.

Katie:

There was a conspiracy throughout them all.

Frank:

And certainly, a mutiny of this size was a great concern for the officers of all the various ships. And, I think all of them started to keep a very clear eye out for other possible mutinies.

Elizabeth:

And they even mentioned at one point after the mutiny had been stopped, that the naval officers would have their swords to the backs of the soldiers.

Frank:

That's actually a great quote, Elizabeth. Do you want to read that quote for us?

Elizabeth:

So it was that for a time, on more than one quarter deck, anxiety did exist. At sea, precautionary vigilance was strained against relapse. At short notice, an engagement might come on. When it did, the lieutenants assigned to batteries felt an incumbent on them in some instances to stand with drawn swords behind the men working the guns.

Frank:

So as I said, the mutiny was generally settled, but the officers on every ship are very wary of what's going on amongst the men. And this is what Billy Budd finds himself in the middle of when he comes to the new war ship, the Bellipotent.

We quickly meet two other characters from our novel.

Katie:

Captain, the Honorable Edward Fairfax Vere, who is called Starry Vere.

Frank:

Why was he called Starry Vere?

Elizabeth:

It says that he would at times betray a certain dreaminess of mood.

Katie:

Yeah, he was just a space cadet.

Frank:

And then doesn't one of his cousins find a poem where they actually refer to a Starry Vere?

Katie:

He did. 17th century German poem about a hero under the discipline severe of Fairfax and the Starry Vere.

Frank:

And hence the nickname Starry Vere. But he's a well respected Captain, although they do say that if you see him on shore, he doesn't give the impression of being a Captain, of being a military man. But certainly on the ship, he's in charge.

Katie:

Yes, exactly. He doesn't walk like one, he doesn't talk like one.

Frank:

But when he has to, he'll act like one.

Katie:

Absolutely. On the ship, there's no question who's in charge.

Frank:

We next meet the antagonist to our protagonist Billy Budd, John Claggart, a Master at Arms. Tell me a little bit about him.

Elizabeth:

Yeah, John Lager was not a Navy man and possibly not even English.

Katie:

He was promoted too, like Billy Budd.

Elizabeth:

Oh, he was impressed.

Katie:

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth:

I see.

Katie:

He himself was not a sailor. He probably wasn't even English. He was pale, especially compared to all the weathered skin around him.

Frank:

And Elizabeth, because the sailors didn't really know his background. There were a lot of rumors about him.

Elizabeth:

There were some gossip that he might have been some type of criminal that was escaping from justice or escaping from having to serve time by spending time as a sailor.

Katie:

Melville tells us the Master at Arms of a great war ship, becoming a sort of chief of police, charged among other matters with the duty of preserving order on the populous lowered gun decks.

Frank:

So, essentially he's the main cop on this ship.

Katie:

Absolutely.

Elizabeth:

And interestingly, he had just gotten started. He was a novice and was very quickly promoted to this position because he had, it says, an ingratiating deference to superior is together with a peculiar ferreting genius manifested.

So it sounds like he just likes to suck up to the bosses.

Katie:

And I think the power's going to his head.

Frank:

Katie, I think you're absolutely right, and I think we'll find out a little bit more about that power going to his head as we read a little bit further.

But with that introduction, let's take a break here, and when we come back, we'll talk about Billy's daily life on the Bellipotent.

You're listening to Novel Conversations. We'll be right back.

Welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations. All right. Katie, Elizabeth, when we left, we'd introduced Billy Budd as well as a couple other characters, the Captain of the ship, Edward Vere and the Master at Arms, John Claggart. Elizabeth, how is Billy doing on his new ship?

Elizabeth:

Oh, it says life in the foretop well agreed with Billy Budd. There, when not actually engaged on the yards yet higher aloft, the topmen who as such had been picked out for youth and activity, constituted an aerial club lounging at ease against the smaller stunsails rolled up into cushions, spinning yarns like lazy gods, and frequently amused with what was going on in the busy world of the decks below. So they're kind of like birds just watching everybody below them.

Frank:

But Katie, life is not all figuratively and literally head The clouds aboard the Bellipotent for Billy Budd. He works really hard to be an exceptional sailor, in part because of what he had witnessed just after coming aboard.

Katie:

He does. Billy witnessed a young fellow getting whipped, the gangway punishment. He saw the culprits naked back under the scourge, grid ironed with red welts and worse, when he marked the dire expression on the liberated man's face.

So Billy resolves that he will never let something like that happen to him.

Frank:

But Elizabeth, despite his efforts to be an exceptional sailor, he does seem to start getting into some petty troubles.

Elizabeth:

Yeah, he keeps getting in trouble with his bag is in the wrong place, or there's something wrong with his hammock. And it's unclear to me as to whether he was making a mess or whether somebody else was sabotaging him to make him look bad. Because he's trying his best to follow all the rules and is getting into little troubles, which is making him very anxious.

Frank:

And Elizabeth, I think Billy Budd's not sure what's going on. He doesn't think he's making these mistakes on his own. He thinks maybe someone else is doing it, but he's not sure.

Katie, he does seem to have someone that he can go and talk to and confide in or at least get some advice from.

Katie:

Well, he does. He has an old seadog who, we don't get his real name, but they call him Board-Her-in-the-Smoke. He's somewhat of an Agamemnon figure.

Elizabeth:

He calls Billy Budd, Baby Budd. And he says, "Baby Budd, Jimmy Legs," meaning the Master at Arms, Claggart, "Is down on you."

So he warns Billy from the beginning that Claggart is not fond of him and is out to get him.

Frank:

What do we think is Claggart's problem, Katie?

Katie:

Well, he just seems to be down on Billy Budd. Melville tells us he just has a depravity, according to nature. He's just a bad guy.

Frank:

He's just a bad guy. And Elizabeth, he seems to have focused his evil on Billy Budd.

Elizabeth:

Indeed, because Billy is such the picture of innocence and purity. And this is so against Claggart's nature, and he doesn't like seeing somebody that's so untainted.

Frank:

Can we call this jealousy or envy, perhaps?

Elizabeth:

Oh yes. It says that his envy is similar to Saul's envy of David, although it says Claggart's envy struck deeper.

Frank:

Billy Budd's troubles continue. He gets a visitor late at night at his bunk.

Katie:

Right, in the middle of the night when the rest of the ship is asleep. Somebody approaches him and tells him to come meet him outside for a minute.

Frank:

What does he want?

Katie:

He's another impressed sailor, and he wants Billy to unite some of the other impressed sailors, for what, is vague.

Frank:

But nothing seems to come of it, does it?

Katie:

No, Billy just tries to put it out of his mind.

Frank:

But Elizabeth, when Billy tells the old seadog about this night visitor, he makes a connection, doesn't he?

Elizabeth:

He does. He blames it on Jimmy Legs, which is his nickname for Claggart. And he calls it a cat's paw, which I believe is similar to trying to trick someone, pull the wool over someone. So he seems to think this is some type of plot to get Billy into trouble.

Frank:

Billy Budd, still not convinced that it's Claggart. He makes excuses almost for Claggart.

Elizabeth:

Yes, Billy says he always had a pleasant word for him.

Frank:

"He always has nice words for me," he said.

Elizabeth:

Yeah.

Frank:

Is this not a failing of, for lack of a better way to say it, nice guys? Sometimes nice guys can't imagine that there's not nice guys out in the world.

Katie:

I think that's exactly what it is. And it's the same thing with how he sees Claggart. He just assumes he's a nice guy, assumes the best out of him, and doesn't realize that he has something out for Billy Budd.

Frank:

I think we're all starting to get that feeling that there is something coming for Billy Budd. But as I mentioned, presumably nothing seems to come of this midnight visit. There's no follow-up by the stranger.

We now get some information about a particular assignment for the Bellipotent.

Katie:

They were assigned a forward post ahead of the fleet and they encountered an enemy.

Elizabeth:

And the faster enemy ship evades and escapes the Bellipotent.

Frank:

And it's after this failure that Claggart sees an opportunity to make a strike against Billy.

Katie:

Yes, he seeks out an interview with Captain Vere and he claims suspicions about Billy.

Frank:

And he uses the M word, or at least implies it.

Katie:

When he first starts speaking to the Captain, he uses very vague language. And Captain Vere has to say, "Get out with it. What are you trying to say? Be direct, man."

Captain Vere even cuts him off before he can say the M word.

Elizabeth:

He doesn't appreciate Claggart's approach, and he's also very distrustful of Claggart and has a hard time believing him. His intuition is telling him that Claggart is up to something.

Katie:

Even before he hears who the man is.

Frank:

But the Captain does decide he has to inquire further. And so, he calls Billy to his cabin with Claggart.

Elizabeth:

And once both Billy and Claggart are in the room, the Captain tells Claggart to repeat the accusation to Billy's face.

Katie:

That doesn't go well. Now his speech impediment comes in. His stutter becomes a huge factor.

Frank:

How's that?

Katie:

Well, he can't get a word out.

Frank:

Makes it hard to defend yourself, doesn't it?

Katie:

Well, for you to orally defend yourself.

Elizabeth:

As he's trying to get the words out, and Captain Vere puts his hand on him to encourage him to speak his mind, Billy punches Claggart.

Frank:

And I got to tell you guys, that was a shock for me. But Elizabeth, not so much for you because you remembered something from earlier in the novel.

Elizabeth:

Yes. At the very, very beginning, when the Lieutenant is taking Billy away from his former ship, the Captain of that ship who is trying to convince him not to take Billy, tells him of an instance in which one of the other sailors, thinking that Billy was a wimp and wouldn't be able to take care of himself, jabbed Billy. And Billy immediately turned and started wailing on him.

And so, he very much can physically defend himself and has been shown to in the past.

Frank:

I had forgotten that prior reference when I read this reference. And it did surprise me that the very first thing Billy thinks of is to punch Claggart in the face.

Before we get to the consequences of Billy's reaction to being accused of mutiny, let's take a break here. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo. We'll be right back.

And we're back. I'm Frank Lavallo and you're listening to Novel Conversations.

All right. Elizabeth, Katie, when we left, Billy Budd had been accused of mutiny by Claggart. He immediately, quickly, and violently punches him in the head. What happened?

Elizabeth:

Well, Claggart falls down and doesn't get up again.

Frank:

Katie, he's dead.

Katie:

He's dead. The Captain orders an immediate trial while the officers on board feel the matter should wait until it can be brought before an Admiral of the fleet.

Elizabeth:

The normal procedure would be to have an Admiral take care of this, but the Captain feels like it's an emergency.

Frank:

And why is that?

Elizabeth:

Because he's afraid of mutiny.

Frank:

That's right.

Elizabeth:

And Claggart was accusing Billy and maybe others of being involved in potential mutiny.

Frank:

So what I called an earlier digression, when we got all that information about previous mutinies, it comes back here now. The Captain feels he can't wait to get this matter under control. There may well be a mutinous plot on the ship, and he's going to act and he's going to act now and not wait for an Admiral of the fleet to pass judgment.

Literally guys, within hours they have this trial. And as the only witness, the Captain testifies.

Katie:

And Billy admits that he punched, but he doesn't admit to the mutiny or having any attitudes of mutiny. And the doctor describes the blood dripping out of his ear and nose.

Elizabeth:

The Captain feels horrible about all of this because he knows that Claggart was lying about Billy and that Billy was innocent. At the same time, he has to uphold the law and there are very strict naval laws at play.

Frank:

Innocent of mutiny, but he absolutely punches Claggart. And you can't have that on a ship either.

Elizabeth:

He can't have a sailor murder an officer and let that go, because that would be a horrible example for the rest of the crew.

Katie:

And I think ultimately, the three judges make their decision based on the Captain's words to them. He gives a somewhat heartfelt speech about what a difficult decision and situation and what's the just move.

Frank:

And I think the officers who are sitting in judgment of Billy Budd feel the same way that Elizabeth said that the Captain did. They don't really believe Claggart. They really don't believe that Billy Budd was planning a mutiny.

But Billy Budd punched an officer in the head and caused his death. There can't be any question about the final verdict.

Elizabeth:

Right.

Frank:

And what is that final verdict?

Elizabeth:

That Billy Budd has to hang.

Frank:

Death by hanging.

Katie:

In fact, when the surgeon first proclaims Claggart dead, the Captain says, "Struck dead by an angel of God, yet the angel must hang."

Frank:

We've now said it a couple times, but that's how most of the officers feel. They don't believe Claggart. But Billy took one step too far and now he must face the punishment.

Let's talk about that punishment. We get a couple interesting passages about the hanging of Billy Budd. The first thing is, after he's hung, there's no muscle spasms. There's no twitching of the body. And the officers find that a little disconcerting, if you will.

Elizabeth:

The surgeon and the Captain are discussing it and how it seems impossible, unexplained.

Frank:

They almost attributed it to the hand of God. And Katie, what were Billy Budd's final words?

Katie:

"God, bless Captain Vere." When he says, "God, bless Captain Vere," all the men, as if in one voice, repeat it. "God, bless Captain Vere."

Frank:

But Elizabeth, this peaceful execution did not really rest peacefully with the sailor.

Elizabeth:

No, there starts to be an incomprehensible murmur among them and rumors, as well.

Frank:

And then once Billy Budd's body's consigned to the sea, these murmurs increase and are almost echoed by the seabirds, aren't they?

Katie:

Yes. There's a disturbance among the seabirds, which of course the sailors take as an omen.

Frank:

Again, perhaps something supernatural going on here.

We get three last quick chapters. A couple different things happen in those final chapters. You want to just fill me in, Elizabeth?

Elizabeth:

Yes. Captain Vere, soon after, gets mortally injured and dies. And then there is one news article written about Billy Budd that claims that he was a mutineer and that he stabbed Claggart to death. A very different communication than what actually happened.

Frank:

Dare I say, fake news?

Katie:

And all the disruptiveness tied up in a pretty little package.

Frank:

And Elizabeth, Katie, that's essentially how our novel, Billy Budd by Herman Melville, ends.

Let's take one final break and then head into our last segment where I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or perhaps tell me about a character or give me a quote that we haven't had a chance to get to.

Right now, you're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo. We'll be right back.

All right. Elizabeth. Katie, before our break, we finished our conversation about the novel. And now I'd like to ask the two of you to perhaps share a moment that we didn't get to or a character you'd like to mention. Perhaps read a quote from the book. Elizabeth, do you have something for us?

Elizabeth:

I do. I think it's interesting that Billy's older friend tried to warn him multiple times about Claggart, and Billy was too trusting and naive to believe him. Too trusting of others to believe that they had any ill intentions against him.

And I think it is important if you have trusted family and friends who try to warn you about someone, I think it is important to listen to them and not discount that advice.

Frank:

I think that's a great point. Katie, do you have something?

Katie:

Sure. I wanted to look back at Captain Vere in his final moments of lif.e he was wounded in battle and has enough time to get taken ashore and has a few days before he dies. But his last words were, "Billy Budd. Billy Budd," which I think looks back to Billy Budd's final words, which were about Captain Vere and just the hardship that Captain Vere held over this difficult decision and whether it was right or wrong to hang Billy Budd.

It's not really sure if it was out of remorse or out of something else, but it was close to his heart and his last dying words.

Frank:

I really like the symmetry that came out there. As we recall, Billy Budd's last words before he was hung, was, "God, bless Captain Vere." And now Captain Vere's last words before he dies or succumbs to his injuries was a memory of Billy Budd.

Good. Thank you very much. What I liked about this book particularly were all the literary allusions that Herman Melville sprinkles into the novel. Two in particular really caught my eye. The Captain, Captain Vere, is referred to as Chiron of the Sea, and that's of course a reference to the centaur that helped teach Achilles his martial arts. He was Achilles' great advisor, a centaur.

And then the other reference that I really enjoyed was a reference to a novel called The Mysteries of Udolpho by Anne Radcliffe. That's an old, old horror/supernatural novel that was very well read at its time. As a matter of fact, Jane Austen, after reading that, used some of the same themes in her book, Northanger Abbey.

So I enjoyed those literary allusions. There's several others in there, and I'm going to ask our readers to, as they read this novel, look for those literary allusions for yourself. Look them up and it'll provide a fuller understanding to what Herman Melville was writing about it in this little novella that's actually quite a story.

Billy Budd by Herman Melville.

And so guys, with those final remarks, I'd like to end our conversation about Billy Budd by Herman Melville. Elizabeth, Katie, I do want to thank both of you for coming in and having this conversation with me today. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

Elizabeth:

I did. Thanks for having us.

Katie:

Thank you so much.

Frank:

And don't tell me if you didn't, please.

I'm Frank Lavallo, and you've been listening to Novel Conversations.

Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find us on Instagram or Twitter, @novelconversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and anything else we've got in the works.

I want to give special thanks to our readers today, Elizabeth Flood and Katie Smith.

Our sound designer and producer is Noah Foutz and Gracienna Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Michael DeAloia and David Allen Moss.

I'm Frank Lavallo, and thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation, all your own.

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