"Death Comes For The Archbishop" by Willa Cather

Frank:

Hello and welcome. I'm Frank Lavallo, and this is Novel Conversations, a podcast about the world's greatest stories.

For each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book, and together we summarize the story for you. We introduce you to the characters, tell you what happens to them, and we read from the book along the way. So if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place.

This episode's conversation is about the novel Death Comes for The Archbishop by Willa Cather. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Katie Smith and Elizabeth Flood. Katie, Elizabeth, welcome.

Katie:

Thanks, Frank.

Elizabeth:

It's great to be back.

Frank:

It is really good to be back, isn't it?

Glad to have you both here. Before we get started, let me give you a quick summary of the novel, Death Comes for the Archbishop, written by Willa Cather and published in 1927. Death Comes For The Archbishop is the story of Father Jean Marie Latour, sent by the Vatican to be the bishop and apostolic vicar to New Mexico and the newly acquired lands of the American Southwest. What he finds are natives, living in pagan superstition and miseducation, and local Catholic priests who are at best poorly educated and lazy, and at worst, sinful, rebellious, and in some cases more native than the locals. How Archbishop Latour converts the natives, rescues and reinvigorates the clergy and the Catholic church, and creates a thriving lasting bishopric for the American Southwest, make up the bulk of our novel, Death Comes for the Archbishop.

Let me just say a couple things about our novel. The narrative of our story is often told in a non-linear way, weaving Father Latour's past and present, but for our conversation, we'll do our best to tell it to you in a straight line. Also, though it reads as a biography, this is a work of fiction, and it is not a history, though we can learn about how the men and women save the church and the Catholic faith in Southwest America. Katie, let me ask you, is this your first time reading Death Comes for the Archbishop?

Katie:

I've read it a couple years ago, but every time I read historical fiction, I kind of take it as truth.

Frank:

There was a lot of truth in there with a capital T, although as you said, it is a work of fiction. Was the reading any different this time than from the last time you read it?

Katie:

Last time I listened to it on an audiobook. And having the book in my hands, I paid a lot more attention to the deep descriptions that she gave. The way she describes the landscape is just beautiful.

Frank:

Absolute beautiful language, and we will get to some of those descriptions as we go along in our conversation. Elizabeth, how about you? Is this the first time reading Death Comes For The Archbishop?

Elizabeth:

Yes, this was my first time.

Frank:

Well, what did you think of it?

Elizabeth:

Well, I definitely really loved the beautiful descriptions, as Katie said. Very rich, gorgeous descriptions of the landscape. It definitely made me want to visit New Mexico. I will say I had some issues with some parts of it and some things that irritated me about it, but we'll get into that later.

Frank:

Okay. Yes, you can make sure you tell us those spots when we come to them.

Elizabeth:

Yes.

Frank:

All right, Katie, I mentioned that the novel's about the creation of a new bishopric centered in Santa Fe and in the newly acquired lands of the American Southwest. But our story starts not in the New Mexico territory, but in Rome in 1848. Can you briefly give us that beginning, the prologue to our actual story?

Katie:

Sure. We're met with a few cardinals having a beautiful dinner outside of Rome.

Frank:

Living large, those cardinals, weren't they?

Katie:

They sure are. We have a Spanish cardinal, a French one, and one from Italy as well, and they're met with a missionary Father Ferrand, from France, who's been living in the Great Lakes. The cardinals and the missionary are trying to decide if New Mexico needs its own bishop, and it becomes pretty clear pretty early on that Father Ferrand, the missionary, is pushing for one person.

Frank:

And who is that?

Katie:

Father Latour.

Frank:

Father Latour. Right, let's be clear. There is a bishopric in this area, but it's centered in Durango, Mexico, and now these cardinals and this missionary are trying to decide who to send to create a new bishopric in the new lands of New Mexico, taking some of the authority away from the bishop in Durango, as well as taking some authority away from the current bishop that's centered in Baltimore, Maryland. And, Katie, it's while the cardinals are discussing who to send as the new bishop to New Mexico that we get a kind of interesting story about the Spanish Bishop, Father Allende.

Katie:

It's during this meeting that the Spanish cardinal, Allende, pulls aside Father Ferrend, the missionary, and he tells him this story. I'm going to read from the book.

"When my progenitor was an old man, along came one of these missionary priests from New Spain begging. All missionaries from the Americas were inveterate beggars then and now, Bishop Ferrand. The Franciscan had considerable success, and his tales of pious Indian converts and struggling missionaries. He came to visit at my great-grandfather's house and conducted devotions in the absence of the chaplain. He wheedled a good sum of money out of the old man as well as vestments and linen and chalices, and he would take anything. He implored my grandfather to give him a painting from his great collection for the ornamentation of his mission church among the Indians. My grandfather told him to choose from the gallery, believing the priest would covet most what he himself could best afford to spare, but not at all. The hairy Franciscan pounced upon one of the best in the collection, a young St. Francis in Meditation by El Greco, and the model for the Saint was one of the very handsome Dukes of Albuquerque. My grandfather protested, tried to persuade the fellow that some picture of the crucifixion or a martyrdom would appeal more strongly to his redskins. What would a St. Francis, of almost feminine beauty, mean to the scalp takers?"

Frank:

And, Katie, after Cardinal Allende tells him this story about this missing painting, he has a strange request for Father Ferrend.

Katie:

He asks that the new bishop keep an eye out for his old painting.

Frank:

And, Elizabeth, certainly by the end of this prologue, we know one thing,

Elizabeth:

They want it to be Bishop Latour.

Frank:

Father Latour is in the Great Lakes, but now he has to get to Santa Fe. Can you take us on that journey briefly?

Elizabeth:

Yeah. So he starts in Cincinnati, goes by boat to New Orleans, by boat to Galveston, where he is shipwrecked, across Texas in a wagon train to San Antonio, where he breaks his leg and spends three months healing, to finally arrive in Santa Fe, the seat of his vicarate. And I will say traveling back then sounds absolutely awful.

Frank:

Right. There was no direct way from Cincinnati to where he had to be in Santa Fe. He could have gone to St. Louis, but then he would've had to go across west through Indian lands, so he's advised to go south to New Orleans, and then west across the waters. It's not an easy journey. It takes him months before he can get to his land. But, Katie, he's not alone on this journey.

Katie:

No. He's accompanied by Father Joseph Vaillant. He is Latours boyhood friend, but that's all we know about him for right now.

Frank:

He's also been living up in the Great Lakes area around Lake Erie, as a matter of fact. Elizabeth, Father Latour is now finally in Santa Fe after all these travails and travels. He can start his mission.

Elizabeth:

Not exactly. It starts with him not being accepted as bishop by the local Mexican priests. They're currently under the authority of the Bishop of Durango. So Latour must travel 3000 miles from Santa Fe to Durango and back to claim his official documents, proof of his bishopric from the Vatican.

Frank:

And, Katie, this trip provides us with an example of Father Latour's faith, and we get to meet his first, shall we call them his parishioners. You want to tell us about that example of his faith?

Katie:

Yeah, we meet him on the road where he's exhausted and worn down from the heat, but he focuses in the distance on a tree that's growing in the shape of a cross. So he dismounts, kneels down, and begins to pray.

Frank:

And we should say that the shape of this tree is very different from all the other trees in the area. Most of the other trees are growing straight up. This one seems to have spread out, as you said, into the shape of a cross. And, Elizabeth, why don't you introduce us to the people he meets in Hidden Water.

Elizabeth:

So once he finally reaches the water, Agua Secreta, Hidden Water, he meets an old man called Benito and his family. And this is a good introduction to the hospitality of the Mexicans throughout the story. They're very hospitable. So they make him a meal and they tell him about their lives and so on, and just tell him about the simplicity and the happiness of their farming life. They've got goats, they've got bees and so on. And we learn that they are not, especially the old man's sons, are not fans of Americans.

Frank:

Particularly, the American priests.

Elizabeth:

Yes. So they're cool with Latour because he's French and he's not American. As long as he's not American, they're fine. But they do not like Americans.

Frank:

They've had some bad run-ins with the American priests who seem to only be interested in accumulating money and power. And so they've pulled themselves back from the religion and Father Latour is here to try to bring them back.

Elizabeth:

This shows us Father Latour as a parish priest attending to his flock, and Catholicism is not dead here, but is in need of watering.

Frank:

Watering and some weeding. But we'll get to that. Katie, in these chapters, we also start to learn a little bit more about Father Vaillant.

Katie:

Father Vaillant is a missionary. I think he's from France, but he's been living in the Great Lakes. There he's been growing lettuce and grapes along Lake Erie shores in Sandusky.

Frank:

Right in Sandusky, where the Cedar Point is, right?

Katie:

Right. Right around the corner.

Frank:

But we also learn one other thing about Father at this point.

Elizabeth:

He's a great cook.

Frank:

He loves to cook. Well, being a Frenchman, right? He loves his food and he loves to cook his food. And, Elizabeth, it's about this time in a novel that Father Latour learns the story of our Lady of Guadalupe. He's visited by a priest who's made a pilgrimage to the shrine. This priest wants Father Latour to understand the importance of this story, the importance of this visitation, to the Mexican people.

Elizabeth:

Yes. This is Father Herrera, who is nearly 70, who comes to visit him and tell him the story. If I'm correct, I believe our Lady of Guadalupe is the patron of the Americas. So this is a huge deal to the Mexicans because in this story, a poor Mexican man, who is actually a monk in training, he ends up receiving a vision of our Lady of Guadalupe. And she is dressed in traditional Mexican clothing and has the appearance of a Mexican woman, which is common for apparitions of Mary, that she takes on the appearance of the locals. And he tells his bishop. The bishop doesn't believe him and thinks that maybe it's some kind of demonic thing. So then Juan Diego is doubting what he's seen, but she ends up appearing to him again and gives him a sign, which is she puts roses in his tilma, which is the garment of clothing he's wearing. And when he brings the roses back to the bishop, we see an image of our Lady on the tilma, which is a miraculous image that hasn't been explained.

Frank:

And, Elizabeth, this miracle is very important to the Mexican people. For years they've been told about the great miracles in Rome, the great miracles of Italy, the great miracles centuries ago. For them, this is a living manifestation of the faith in front of them. This is their saint. This is their miracle. And it helps keep the Catholic faith alive through these lean years, if you will.

Elizabeth:

Indeed, especially because the Catholic religion was brought to the Mexicans by white people.

Frank:

The Jesuits, in fact.

Elizabeth:

Yeah. And this is proof to them that it's not just a white person's religion. She came to them in the form of a Mexican woman showing that it's their religion as well.

Frank:

That's a great point. Great point, Elizabeth. Thank you. As we continue on in our reading, the next few chapters, we get some more stories of Father Vaillant. He goes out on some journeys, and through his journeys and his experiences on these journeys, we learn a little bit more about him. Katie, do you want to fill us in on one of his journeys to the Mexican rancher?

Katie:

Yeah, absolutely. He goes to the home of a rich Mexican named Manuel Lujon. He comes to bring the sacraments to the people. First marriage and then baptism.

Frank:

And, Katie, in these next few chapters, Father Vaillant takes several journeys to visit some of the other parishes in the area. We're particularly told about one story when he goes to visit the home of a Mexican rancher, Manuel Lujon. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that story?

Katie:

Father Vaillant comes to the home of Manuel Lujon, and he comes to bring the sacraments to the people. He's insistent that marriage first and baptism later.

Frank:

Right, he says that order is, "but Christian. I will baptize the children tomorrow morning and their parents will have at least been married overnight." So he's also a faithful parish priest. He performs the sacraments for his people and he tries to instruct them on the Catholic faith. But that's not all we learn about Father Vaillant. He's a shrewd fellow as well, isn't he?

Elizabeth:

Yeah. This is where the story of the mules happens, which really puts a bad taste in my mouth for Father Vaillant, to be honest.

Frank:

Well, tell me that story and then we'll talk about that bad taste.

Elizabeth:

Sure. So his host, Manuel, is showing him his stables and showing him all his horses. And he particularly takes pride in his two cream colored mules. Their names are Angelica and Contento, I believe.

Frank:

Right.

Elizabeth:

And he has special pride in these mules. And Father Vaillant gets on one of the mules and rides it around, and he's talking about, "Oh, this mule is perfect for me because I'm short and it's hard for me to ride horses, and the mule is the perfect size for me, and so on." And so Manuel suddenly decides he wants to give this mule to Father Vaillant to help him with his travels and make his travels easier for him. So he offers Father Vaillant this mule, which is a great sacrifice for him, and he's very happy to do it.

Frank:

But where's the distasteful part for you?

Elizabeth:

Well, the next day, Father Vaillant comes in and completely manipulates Manuel. So he comes in and he says, "Oh, man, I can't accept this mule because then the bishop, who is my superior, won't have a nice mule, and it's just not good for me to have a better animal than him. And besides, I can't separate the two of them." So he manipulates the owner of the mules into giving him both mules.

Frank:

What does the rancher Lujon think about this transaction? Does he feel manipulated, Katie?

Katie:

I don't think so. I think he's happy to be able to share such a wonderful and precious gift with his priest.

Elizabeth:

I don't think so. He says, "Senor Lujon watched them disconsolately until they disappeared. He felt he had been worried out of his mules, and yet he bore no resentment." So I suppose it's a mixed feeling. I think he feels like he's been kind of spiritually manipulated. At least that's how I read it.

Frank:

Well, why didn't he feel resentful?

Katie:

Well, it says he believed he would be proud of the fact of the bishop and the vicar rode Contento and Angelica. It says, "Father Vaillant had forced his hand, but he was rather glad of it."

Frank:

It's almost a down payment on his penance for heaven. Can we say that?

Elizabeth:

I don't know. Is that how that works?

Frank:

That's what they tell me.

Katie:

I think Father Vaillant in general loves to get gifts from people, and he appreciates them all the time. And so he's not going to turn away anyone's generosity. And so when they give him this second mule, it's almost like fulfilling that for Father Vaillant. And then Lujon feels like he's giving of himself, and then therefore maybe helping his spiritual journey as his mules help the Father's journey.

Frank:

And to be sure we're going to meet other priests in this story that would take those mules for their own personal gain. Father Vaillant is not taking these mules for himself. He's taking them for the church, for the bishop, to enable his other journeys. This is not about a power play or seeking personal gain. Father Vaillant is seeking these mules for the faith for the church, whereas some of the other priests just want money and power.

Katie:

Right. And Contento and Angelica stay with us until the end of the novel.

Frank:

They really do. They really do.

Elizabeth:

That's true, yeah.

Frank:

And in fact, I think we even get some of their descendants by the end of our novel, that's right. They've had offspring as well. And, Katie, we also learn a couple more things about Father Vaillant. He's not just a shrewd dealer.

Katie:

Sure. He's pretty spry for his size. And he's pretty ugly.

Frank:

That's what the women all say about him. He's very ugly. Big nose, warts, short.

Elizabeth:

Yeah. They really lay into that.

Frank:

Not an attractive man, but-

Katie:

But he cooks again.

Frank:

He cooks again.

Katie:

He requests his own meat and his own fire from the cook.

Frank:

Right. He's gotten tired of the Mexican meat in the chili dish, and he wants to just cook a little bit of goat or a little bit of lamb on a spitfire for himself and just eat meat. He doesn't want chili and beans at the moment. But it's a bit scandalous for the women in the kitchen.

Elizabeth:

Oh, yeah.

Frank:

As our story continues, the two priests now, Father Latour and Father Vaillant, have to take a trip to Mora, New Mexico. And here they meet the best and the worst of the Americans in this region. Elizabeth, do you want to tell me a little bit about Buck Scales and their run in with him?

Elizabeth:

Well, first of all, I love the name Buck Scales. That's so hilarious to me. But they're experiencing some inclement weather, and they're really worried. They're on these horses. They don't have the right clothing to keep them warm and to keep them dry. So they're really concerned that they might not make it through the night. They finally come across this shack, and Father Latour is getting really bad vibes. He sees this man come out who's really ugly and just evil looking and gives him a bad instinct right away. But they feel like they're forced to stop at his house because that's the only shelter that they can find anywhere nearby.

Frank:

But, Katie, Buck Scales is not living alone, is he?

Katie:

No. He has a wife, Magdalena.

Frank:

Tell me a little bit about Magdalena and our quick encounter with her.

Katie:

As soon as they walk in the door, Magdalena shoots eyes at the two men and tries to warn them as best she can silently to get out of the house.

Frank:

Right. And as soon as Buck Scales takes a step out of the house to deal with the two mules, Magdalena gives them a very clear sign. She runs her hand across her throat.

Katie:

Yes. So immediately the two priests go back to the stable and ask Buck to give them their mules back and say that they actually have to be moving along. And he's not happy with that.

Frank:

And why do we think that is?

Katie:

He wants their mules.

Frank:

And the only way to get their mules will be for him to-

Katie:

Make them kick the bucket.

Frank:

Right. Kill them. But with this warning from Magdalena, they immediately understand that they're in danger.

Elizabeth:

Right.

Frank:

They get their mules back and head off to Mora, New Mexico leaving Magdalena and Buck Scales behind.

Elizabeth:

Right.

Frank:

But the next morning, in Mora, they get a surprise. Katie, do you want to pick up the story there?

Katie:

Sure. Magdalena shows up. Magdalena was a young Mexican woman who had married the American Buck Scales thinking that that would get her further along in life. But it turned out that he was a horribly abusive man and he would murder travelers who came by his house so that he could steal their possessions. And she had three babies with him, but he killed all of them. So when Father Latour and Vaillant show up and she warns them so that they don't experience a similar fate as the other travelers, and they leave, and then she finally decides to make a run for it and escape.

Frank:

She seizes her opportunity and travels all night on foot back to Mora, New Mexico where the two priests were headed. Once the priests encounter her again the next morning, and she tells them the story of Buck Scales, the two priests decide to call in the authorities. Eventually Buck Scales is arrested. And it's during this time that we meet a genuine American hero, the great frontiersman, Kit Carson. Katie, do you want to tell us briefly about Kit Carson?

Katie:

Sure. Kit Carson has been a world renowned explorer and guide, and now he's working as a beaver trapper. But when he sees Magdalena, he says he used to know her when she was a young girl, so he can attest for her horrible story.

Frank:

And he makes an incredible offer to her, doesn't he?

Katie:

He offers to take her in with him and his wife.

Frank:

All right. Let's take a break here. And when we come back, we'll talk about how Father Latour starts to exert his authority. And we'll learn even a little bit more about Father Vaillant. We'll be right back.

And we're back. And today we're having a conversation about the novel Death Comes for the Archbishop, written by Willa Cather. So, Katie, before our break, I said we were at a point where Father Latour starts to exert his authority and we continue to learn more about Father Vaillant. Do you want to tell me about Father Latour's trip to Acoma?

Katie:

Father Latour heads out to Albuquerque first, on his way to Acoma, where he meets Father Gallegos. Now, Father Gallegos, they knew about him, Bishop Latour and Father Vaillant. His reputation of his scandalous lifestyle preceded him.

Frank:

Tell me a little bit about that scandalous lifestyle, if you would.

Katie:

We know he has children, first of all.

Frank:

Scandalous.

Katie:

And he loves to throw a good party. He goes out dancing.

Frank:

Scandalous.

Katie:

He likes to drink and have a good time.

Frank:

And gamble.

Katie:

And gamble.

Frank:

Scandalous. But he doesn't do anything with the padre at the moment. He's sort of just collecting information, if you will.

Katie:

Sure. And he's jovial and very hospitable. And with this priest, the Acoma Indians are willing to welcome Bishop Latour into their church, which they weren't before.

Frank:

Right. It all depends on Padre Gallegos. but Father Latour doesn't make a decision at this moment. He continues on his journey and he visits Padre Jesus in Isleta. And, Katie, do you want to tell us about his next visit to Isleta and Padre Jesus?

Katie:

Yeah. After being in Albuquerque, he travels to Isleta to see Padre Jesus. His house is surrounded by cactus, as well as many wicker cages, which are full of parrots.

Frank:

He's been cultivating varieties of cactus and varieties of parrots.

Katie:

He loves the parrots because the Indian people cherish the feathers and the colors of the feathers of the parrot. So they were everywhere, even hopping around on the pathway. And now the bishop learns with Padre Jesus that in Acoma, they have a portrait of St. Joseph from Spain, which is thought to work miracles and always bring the rain.

Frank:

Do you think this is the famous El Greco portrait of St. Francis that we read about very early on?

Katie:

Well, I like to believe it is. However, this one is St. Joseph, and that one is St. Francis.

Frank:

Ah. Do you think the natives maybe got it wrong?

Katie:

Easily.

Frank:

Okay. So maybe we'll find our painting.

Katie:

I hope so.

Elizabeth:

And Acoma is very interesting because it's built on a rock.

Frank:

Right, Elizabeth, The village was built on the top of this mesa, this rock outcrop. And the only access up to the top was through a very, very, narrow stairwell, which provided the Indians living at the top a lot of protection because forces of men could not make their way up this narrow stairwell without being picked off one at a time by the inhabitants above. So this was a very secure, safe place for them. But we should also mention now that when Father Latour gets there, this place has been abandoned.

Katie:

Yes. Sadly, the stairway, the one stairway being their only exit, ended up being their undoing because the stairway was destroyed in a terrible storm. And so the people ended up starving because they weren't able to get back down to get to their crops, which were at the bottom of the rock.

Frank:

But, Katie, this was a very important trip for Father Latour. He's now visited and come to know some of the priests in his vicarate. And now is the time, as I said before, he's going to have to exert his authority.

Katie:

Bishop Latour is feeling more comfortable, and he takes this opportunity to get rid of some of the priests that are living poorly. He puts in young new priests, and he also makes Father Vaillant Bishop of Albuquerque.

Frank:

Right. The current bishop of Albuquerque, Padre Gallegos, he's forced into retirement, along with his children. Elizabeth, Katie, along with rebellious and sinful priests Father Latour had a second even larger battle to fight, the superstitions of the Indian Mexican natives of the land.

Katie:

They were convinced that neither the white men nor the Mexicans in Santa Fe understood anything about Indian beliefs. So I think some of these legends about the snakes are conjecture and they're not sure if the Indians actually believe that or not. It's a secret and it's something that the white men and the Mexicans wonder about. And there are stories about a huge snake that the Indians keep in a cave and feed babies too. But that's all kind of a legend and they don't know if it's true or not.

Frank:

And the trapper that's with Father Latour says, "I don't think it's a big snake that they've got, but they do keep some sort of varmint out in the mountain, and they bring it in for their religious ceremony. I don't know if it's a snake, but no white man knows anything about the Indian religion, Padre." And, Elizabeth, Father LaTour also asked the trapper about this superstition he's heard, this legend about an undying fire. But the trapper has a mundane take on this undying fire. Do you want to share that with us?

Elizabeth:

Yeah, he said it is absolutely true that they keep an undying fire, but it's just a small fire that's kept burning in an oven in one of their pueblos. So nothing really too exciting.

Frank:

And that sort of makes sense. They would want to keep a fire going all night, every night, so that they're not faced with the requirement of having to restart their fire every morning and the potential that they might not be able to do that. So many of these houses within their little ovens keep a fire going all the time. And I would imagine over the centuries that's turned into this legendary superstition that these Indians, the Pueblo Indians, have this undying fire somewhere deep in the ground. Sound reasonable?

Elizabeth:

Yes. And practical.

Frank:

And practical. Absolutely. And, Katie, not all the experiences of Father Latour were of rebellious priests and superstitious natives. He does have supporters and he did have some successes.

Katie:

Absolutely. Father Latour has a very specific goal in mind, and he really wants to build a cathedral.

Frank:

A new cathedral in Santa Fe for the new church.

Elizabeth:

But in the old style.

Frank:

In the old style, right. And who's his supporter, who's going to be his main supporter, to get this cathedral built? His

Katie:

Hi main supporter is Dona Isabella Olivares, the wife of Don Antonio.

Frank:

Elizabeth, can you tell me a little bit about Don Antonio and Dona Isabella? And to be clear, Don Antonio is a very faithful, devout Catholic. And he wants to support the church, he believes in the church, he believes in these two priests. But unfortunately, Don Antonio dies and his brothers decide to contest the will because in the will, all his money was left to his wife and his daughter. But the brothers claim that the daughter is illegitimate.

Katie:

Which is kind of confusing to me because they're saying that Isabella is not her mother. They're not saying that Antonio is not her father.

Elizabeth:

It's because Isabella is too young to be the mother of Inez, they claim.

Frank:

In order to be the mother of the daughter, she would have to be at least 53. But for years, she's been lying about her age, and everyone in the community thinks she's 42. And even for money, Dona Isabella will not reveal her real age, even for the inheritance.

Katie:

And it's a hefty inheritance, too.

Frank:

It's going to be enough to keep them both supported for the rest of their lives and build Father Latour's cathedral. So it's very important to the priests, maybe even more important to the priests, that Dona Isabella gets this inherited.

Katie:

Exactly. But it's also rather selfish of her to not think of her own daughter. She's so dead set on everyone believing she's a decade younger than she is.

Frank:

I assure both of you ladies, I will not discuss any further this concept of women lying about their age. We'll just leave it right there. But this fortune is very important to our two priests. Without the fortune from Dona Isabella, Father Latour cannot build his cathedral. So they prevail upon her and eventually, in sort of a humorous moment, she does admit that she's old enough to have a daughter as old as her daughter is, and therefore wins the inheritance.

Elizabeth:

But she says that night during celebration, "I shall never forgive you, Father Joseph, nor you either, Bishop Latour, for that awful lie you made me tell court about my age."

Frank:

But Dona Isabella gets her inheritance, donates the money to the church, and now the big success of Father Latour's life is to build this great cathedral in Santa Fe, the symbol of his bishopric, and the symbol of the new church in the new land. But Katie, more deaths follow. And after several more adventures, Father Vaillant passes away as the Bishop of Colorado.

Katie:

Yes. He spent his last years in the lands of the Colorado Rockies, reviving the church and converting Mexicans, Indians, and everyone with a desire to know God and His teachings. He became the pastoral priest that he always wanted to be.

Frank:

And, Elizabeth, of course, with our title, these deaths are followed now finally, after his great success, death does come for our archbishop.

Elizabeth:

In his last weeks, he spends a lot of time reflecting on his past. He spends a lot of time reflecting on his best friend, Father Vaillant.

Frank:

And their boyhood together in France.

Katie:

Yes, they were seminarians together. They met, I believe, when they were about 19 in the seminary.

Frank:

And they spent their whole lives together converting the Indians, the Mexicans, preaching the faith.

Elizabeth:

Fulfilling their dreams.

Frank:

Fulfilling their dreams, great. But, Katie, let's talk about that last dream of Father Latour. He does build his great cathedral. It's a great success, but at the end, he's, shall we say, ambivalent about it?

Katie:

He finds the perfect white rock to build the church out of. And he wants to build it in the old style, in a Romanesque style from his childhood.

Frank:

And where does his ambivalence towards this cathedral come?

Katie:

After having an architect from France come and help him build it, seeing his old style church in this new environment, I think he sees it as a little bit disjointed. I think he somewhat wishes that he'd built a church in the new style to go along with its environment.

Frank:

Right. This is an old Romanesque style church, essentially in the deserts of New Mexico.

Elizabeth:

Yeah. Standing out like a sore thumb.

Katie:

And one thing that he was reflecting upon at one point is he had been traveling with his guide, who was an American Indian, and after they left the campsite, the guide smoothed out everything, buried all the ashes, made sure that there was no trace of their campsite. And this led him to reflect that the Indians in the area really tried to be one with nature. They didn't want to put so much of their own impression on the land, whereas the white men that came in wanted to build their own architecture and wanted to make their impressions and so on. So I wonder if this ties into him building that church, making his impression from another country onto nature there, and realizing maybe that wasn't the way of the land.

Frank:

I think that's a great point. Very good point. And with the death of the Archbishop, let's take one last break here. And when we come back, I'll ask our readers to share a moment they enjoyed or to tell us about a character we may have missed and perhaps read a favorite line or two. We'll be right back.

And we're back. I'm Frank Lavallo and you're listening to Novel Conversations. And today we're having a conversation about the novel, Death Comes for the Archbishop. Okay, readers, before we took our break, I said this was your opportunity to share a moment that you enjoyed or to tell us about a character we may have missed and perhaps read a favorite line or two. Now's your chance. Katie, do you have something you wanted to read for us or tell us about?

Katie:

Yeah, my favorite passages are definitely surrounded by Cather's descriptions. I feel like when she's describing the desert, she uses a few powerful words and the descriptions are pretty stark. And then when she's describing something more lush and decadent, you hear that her language reflects that. And I think that she puts so much focus into the nature and the trees during our stories that they're almost like characters while we read.

Frank:

I couldn't agree more. And in fact, I'm going to jump in here, ladies, with my thoughts about this novel. And it's exactly what Katie was saying, and I'm just telling our listeners, that unless you read every page, there's no way that we can impart to you, the listener, the absolute beauty of her language. The language that she uses, as Katie said, to describe the colors, the shapes, and the beauty of the Southwest landscape. There's no way we could convey that. We could read you a dozen lines and you still wouldn't get that. I urge you to pick this book up and read it for yourself. The language, the writing, is absolutely phenomenal. With that said, Elizabeth, do you have something you want to share with us?

Elizabeth:

One of my favorite parts is when we come back towards the end to Magdalena, who is with us throughout the book, ever since she escapes from her husband.

Frank:

How does she come back to us in this story?

Elizabeth:

She's living with Kit Carson and his wife for a while, and then she starts working for Father Latour and Father Vaillant and staying with them. And we see Father Joseph and Father Latour are in the garden talking and reflecting, and it says, "The two friends were roused from their reflection by a frantic beating of wings. A bright flock of pigeons swept over their heads to the far end of the garden, where a woman was just emerging from the gate that led into school grounds. Magdalena, who came every day to feed the doves and to gather flowers. She advanced in a whirlwind of gleaming wings and Tranquilino dropped his spade and stood watching her. At one moment, the whole flock of doves caught the light in such a way that they all became invisible at once, dissolved in light, and disappeared as salt dissolves in water. The next moment they flashed around black and silver against the sun." And we just see more that Magdalena has really thrived and really come back into the beauty that she had in the past.

Frank:

She's come back to the church.

Elizabeth:

Yeah.

Frank:

She's almost, I don't know if you want to say it this way, but she's almost a nun in training at this point.

Elizabeth:

Yeah. They wonder if she should marry again or if she just really wants to stay single as she is.

Frank:

I'm glad you brought that back to us, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth:

Yeah.

Frank:

Because I had forgotten what happened to Magdalena.

Elizabeth:

But I will say the one thing that bothers me is Father Vaillant takes credit for her escape when he didn't rescue her. I mean, granted, they definitely helped her after she escaped. He takes credit for them getting her out of the house when she was the one who did that on her own.

Frank:

He does. And that's part of Father Vaillant, right? I'm not going to put that on Willa Cather. I think I'm going to put that on Father Vaillant.

Elizabeth:

Oh yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Frank:

I have another character that we didn't talk about that I'd like to share with our listeners, mother Philomene. She was the sister, she's a nun in charge of a convent. She's the sister of Father Vaillant. And in France, she has her novitiates and she has her sisters constantly working on making vestments, altar cloths, and other materials for Father Latour and Father Vaillant in America. And they're constantly sending over this material to New Mexico.

And Father Latour, at first, he's not sure how to feel about this. He doesn't want these nuns toiling and spending all their time providing him vestments. He imagines them working hard to do this work and then sending off their work. At some point, he has an opportunity to visit the convent in France, and he sees how these nuns glory in this work. They take great pride. This is their faith writ large and writ physical, to do this work, to send these vestments and cloths off to the priests in America. That's their heavenly duty. So he changes his mind and he accepts and understands why these nuns work so hard for priests they'll never meet in America.

And then of course we get a brief moment where she also passes, around the same time as her brother, Father Vaillant passes. And that's what reminded me about Mother Philomene. Katie, do you have anything else you want to share?

Katie:

I do have a passage that I wanted to read.

Frank:

Please do.

Katie:

In part to show the rich description. And I think one thing that Willa Cather is able to do is put just in one sentence, she'll get these kickers, these really great descriptions in just a short little phrase. But this passage is about the month of May, which has always been really special to the bishop. And it's always a time that in his past years, he's gone on a retreat. And in this case he's not necessarily able to, but he's still going to glean all of the spiritual benefits that he can from being in his current place. I think it reflects his underlying goal for him and his whole life is his faith and spreading that into the new world. But here it is. Here's the quote.

"It was the month of Mary and the month of May. Father Vaillant was lying on his army cot, covered with blankets under the grape arbor in the garden, watching the bishop and his gardener at work in the vegetable pots. The apple trees were in blossom. The cherry blooms had gone by. The air and the earth interpreted in the warm gusts of spring. The soil was full of sunlight and the sunlight full of red dust. The air one breathed was saturated with earthy smells and the grass underfoot had a reflection of a blue sky in it."

Frank:

Katie, thanks. Great lines and certainly an eloquent way to end our conversation about the novel Death Comes for the Archbishop. I do want to thank both of you for coming in and having this conversation with me today. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

Katie:

Well, thank you, Frank. Thanks for having us.

Elizabeth:

Yes, thank you so much.

Frank:

Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five star review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find us on Instagram or Twitter @novelconversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and anything else we've got in the works. I want to give special thanks to our readers today, Elizabeth Flood and Katie Smith. Our sound designer and producer is Noah Foutz and Graciana Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Michael Dealoia and David Allen Moss. I'm Frank Lavallo and thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation all your own.

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