00:08 Frank Hello, and welcome to Novel Conversations, a podcast about the world's greatest stories. I'm your host, Frank Lavallo, and for each episode of Novel Conversations, I talk to two readers about one book. And together, we summarize the story for you. We introduce you to the characters, we tell you what happens to them, and we read from the book along the way. So, if you love hearing a good story, you're in the right place. This episode's conversation is about the novel Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte. And I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Katie Smith and Anthony Mahramus. Katie, Anthony, welcome.
00:42 Katie Thanks, Frank.

00:43 Frank Thank you. Glad to have you both here for this conversation. Before we get started, I want to give a quick introduction to this episode's novel. Jane Eyre is set during the early decades of 19th century England. All events are told from the point of view of our protagonist and narrator, Jane Eyre. Sometimes she narrates the events as she experienced them at the time, while at other times she focuses on her retrospective understanding of the events. Jane is an intelligent, honest, plain-featured young girl forced to contend with oppression, inequality, and hardship. Although she meets with a series of individuals who threaten her autonomy, Jane repeatedly succeeds at asserting herself and maintains her principles of justice, human dignity, and morality. Her strong belief in gender and social equality challenged the Victorian prejudices against women and the poor. So, Katie, how do we meet Jane and what do we first learn about her?

01:32 Katie Well, the young Jane Eyre is sitting in the drawing room reading Buick's History of British Birds. Jane is a young orphan being raised by Mrs. Reed, her cruel aunt, at Gateshead, a home of the wealthy Reed family. Mrs. Reed has forbidden her niece to play with her cousins, Eliza, Georgiana, and the bullying John Reed.

01:52 Frank Anthony, John Reed, he's really a nasty kid, isn't he? A nasty boy.

01:56 Anthony Yeah, yeah. John constantly teases and abuses Jane for being a lowly orphan who's only permitted to live with the Reeds because of her mother's charity. Well, one day John hurls a book at the young girl, pushing her to the end of her patience, and Jane finally erupts. The two cousins fight.

02:10 Katie And Jane's aunt, Mrs. Reed, holds Jane responsible for the whole scuffle and sends her to the Red Room as punishment.

02:17 Frank The Red Room?

02:18 Katie Yes, the Red Room. The Blood Red Room. The room in which Jane's uncle Reed died. It's decorated all in red, and Jane tells us it's a blood red. Once locked in the room, Jane catches a glimpse of her ghastly figure in the mirror, and, shocked by her own meager presence, she begins to reflect on the events that have led her to such a state.

02:41 Anthony She remembers her kind Uncle Reed, like polar opposite of Mrs. Reed, bringing her to Gateshead after the parents' death, and she recalls him dying and commanding his wife, the last promise he made was to say, hey, raise Jane as one of your own. Suddenly, Jane is struck with the impression that her uncle Reed's ghost is in the room, and she imagines that he has come to take revenge on his wife for breaking her promise. Jane cries out in terror, as one would if they saw a ghost of someone they were just thinking about. Especially a 10 or 11-year-old young girl, right? Yeah, in the room where he passed away. So, a lot to go on there. Her aunt believes that she is just trying to escape her punishment, and she ignores the pleas. Finally, Jane faints in exhaustion and fear.

03:17 Frank And then she wakes up to find herself in the care of a servant, Bessie, and the kindly apothecary, Mr. Lloyd. Katie, who is Bessie? Bessie Lee.

03:25 Katie Bessie is the maid at Gateshead. She is the only figure in Jane's whole childhood who regularly treats her with some sort of kindness. She tells her stories and sings songs to her. Bessie expresses disapproval of the mistress's treatment of Jane. Jane remains in bed the following day, and Bessie sings her a song. Bessie later marries Robert Levin, the Reed's coachman.

03:47 Anthony And the apothecary, Anthony? Yeah, Mr. Lloyd, he's the Reed's personal apothecary, however that worked at the time. Everybody had their own. But later in the story, he writes a letter confirming Jane's story about her childhood and clears Jane's name. So it's important to remember he comes up again later. But Mrs. Reed's charged that she's a liar. He clears her of that. He's actually the one that suggests to Mrs. Reed that Jane be sent away to school and to Jane's delight, Mrs. Reed reluctantly concurs.

04:13 Frank And Jane soon learns some of her history when she overhears a conversation between Bessie and Miss Abbott. Katie, what do we learn?

04:20 Katie We learn that Jane's mother was a member of a wealthy family, the Reed family, who strongly disapproved of Jane's father, an impoverished clergyman. When they married, Jane's wealthy maternal grandfather wrote his daughter out of his will. Not long after Jane was born, though, Jane's parents both died from typhus, which Jane's father contracted while caring for the poor.

04:42 Frank All right, Anthony, move us along a little.

04:44 Anthony So about two months have passed, and Jane has been enduring even crueler treatment from her aunt and cousins while anxiously waiting for the arrangements to be made for her to go off to Lowood School. Jane is finally told she may attend, and it's a girls' school, and she's introduced to Mr. Brocklehurst, the stern-faced man who runs the school.

05:00 Frank Katie, tell us about Mr., or maybe I think I should be saying Preacher Brocklehurst.

05:05 Katie Well, whichever it is, he was a cruel, hypocritical master of the Lowood School. Mr. Brocklehurst preaches a doctrine of privation, but at the same time, he was stealing from the school to support his own luxurious lifestyle.

05:19 Anthony So Mr. Brocklehurst, yeah, he abrasively questions Jane about religion right off the bat, as soon as he shows up. And he reacts with indignation when she declares that she finds the Psalms uninteresting. It really rubs him wrong, as you might imagine. It does. Jane's aunt warns Mr. Brocklehurst that the girl also has a propensity for lying. A piece of information that Mr. Brocklehurst says he intends to publicize to Jane's teachers upon her arrival. Really, really setting her up for a good first day of school.

05:45 Frank And just as she did with her cousin John Reed, when Mr. Brocklehurst leaves, Jane is so hurt by her aunt's accusations that she cannot stop herself from lashing out and defending herself to her aunt. As it says in the book, as Jane says, speak, I must. I had been trodden on severely and most turned, but how? What strength had I to dart retaliation at my antagonist? I gathered my energies and launched them at her in a blunt sentence. I am not deceitful. If I were, I should say I loved you. But I declare I do not love you. I dislike you the worst of anybody in the world except for John Reed. But Anthony, four days after meeting Mr. Brocklehurst, Jane boards the 6am coach and travels alone to Lowood. Anthony, tell us a little bit about Lowood School.

06:29 Anthony Sure. And this is just one of those classic openings, the dread that comes through. It's a dark day, it's rainy, and she's led through a grim building that will be her new home. Great.

06:39 Frank And Anthony, let me interrupt you there. As we read through this book, Charlotte Bronte uses weather as a character often, and we know when it rains, it's not a good thing, right? It's not going to be a good thing. But anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt.

06:53 Anthony No, that's OK, because I'm glad you said that. I was thinking at some point here to say, too, that there's so many things that are almost we think of cliche until you remember when this came out and you go, oh, no, she established it like this is such a good device. Great point. The following day, Jane's introduced to her classmates and learns the daily routine, which keeps the girls occupied from before dawn until after dinner. Ms. Temple, the superintendent of the school, she's very kind. And while one of Jane's teachers, Ms. Scatchard, is unpleasant, particularly in her harsh treatment of a young student named Helen Burns.

07:24 Frank Katie, tell me about Helen Burns.

07:26 Katie Helen Burns is a young, sickly girl. She becomes Jane's close friend at school. She endures her miserable life there with a passive dignity that Jane can't understand. She's drawn to it. Jane learns from Helen that Lowood is a charity school maintained for female orphans, which means that the Reeds have paid nothing to put her there. She also learns that Mr. Brocklehurst oversees every aspect of its operation. Even Miss Temple must answer to him.

07:54 Frank Anthony, go ahead and tell us a little bit more about Lowood, if you would.

07:57 Anthony Yeah, yeah, sure. The second morning that she's at Lowood, the girls are unable to wash, as the water in their pitchers? Frozen. It is January. Jane quickly learns that life at the school is harsh. The girls are underfed, overworked in their classes, and forced to sit still during seemingly endless sermons.

08:15 Katie Still, though, she takes comfort in her new friendship with Helen, who impresses Jane with her expansive knowledge and her ability to patiently endure even the cruelest treatment from Miss Scratchard.

08:27 Frank For most of Jane's first month at Lowood, Mr. Brockerhurst spends his time away from the school. But when he returns, Jane becomes quite nervous because she remembers his promise to her aunt to warn the school about Jane's supposed habit of lying.

08:39 Anthony When Jane inadvertently drops her slate in Mr. Brocklehurst's presence, that does it. He's furious, tells her she's careless. He orders Jane to stand on a stool while he tells the school that she is a liar and he forbids the other students to speak to her for the rest of the day.

08:54 Katie But Helen makes Jane's day of humiliation endurable by providing her friend with silent consolation. She covertly smiles at Jane every time she passes by.

09:04 Frank But Jane is deeply ashamed. She's certain that her reputation at Lowood has been ruined. But Helen assures her that most of the girls feel more pity for Jane than revulsion at her alleged deceitfulness.

09:14 Anthony Jane tells Miss Temple that she is not a liar and relates the story of her tormented childhood at Gateshead. Ms. Temple seems to believe Jane and writes to Mr. Lloyd, remember we said that, Mr. Lloyd the apothecary, requesting confirmation of Jane's account of events. Ms. Temple offers Jane and Helen tea and seed cake, quite a treat compared to what they normally have to eat. Gruel, essentially. But like the good gruel. Endearing herself even further to Jane.

09:39 Katie And when Mr. Lloyd's letter arrives to corroborate Jane's story, Ms. Temple publicly declares Jane to be innocent. Relieved and contented, Jane devotes herself to her studies. She excels at drawing, and she makes progress in French.

09:53 Frank And as the seasons change and spring comes, life at Lowood briefly seems happier. But the damp forest dell in which the school resides is a breeding ground for typhus. And in the warm temperatures, more than half the girls fall ill with the disease. Some even die.

10:09 Katie Jane remains healthy, though, and she spends her time playing outdoors with her new friend, Marianne Wilson. Helen is sick, but not with typhus. Jane learns the horrific news that her friend is dying of consumption.

10:22 Frank One evening, Jane sneaks into Ms. Temple's room to see Helen one last time. Helen promises Jane that she feels little pain and is happy to be leaving the world suffering behind. Jane takes Helen into her arms and the girls fall asleep. During the night, Helen dies.

10:37 Anthony In a moment, the foreshadowing by Charlotte Bronte is, we are told that Helen's grave is originally unmarked, but 15 years after her death, a gray marble tablet is placed over the spot, presumably by Jane, bearing the single word, resurgam, Latin for, I shall rise again. And Katie, back at Lowood?

10:58 Katie Well, when Mr. Brocklehurst's negligent treatment of the girls at Lowood is found to be one of the causes of the typhus epidemic, a new group of overseers is brought in to run the school. Conditions improve dramatically for the young girls.

11:11 Anthony And Jane excels in her studies for the next six years. It sort of jumps ahead. It does. After spending two more years at Lowood as a teacher, Jane decides she's ready for a change. She advertises in search of a post as a governess and accepts a position at a manor called Thornfield Hall.

11:28 Katie But before leaving, Jane receives a visit from Bessie, her old nurse from Gateshead, who tells her that the happenings at Gateshead since Jane departed eight years ago for Lowood. Georgiana attempted to run away in secret with a man named Lord Edwin Vere, but Eliza foiled the plan by revealing it to Mrs. Reed, their mother. John, the son, has fallen into a life of debauchery and disillusion.

11:54 Anthony Bessie also tells Jane that her father's brother, her uncle John Eyre, appeared at Gateshead seven years ago looking for Jane. That's like right after she left. He did not have the time to travel to Lowood and went away to Madeira, a Portuguese island west of Morocco, in search of wealth. Jane and Bessie part ways, Bessie returning to Gateshead, and Jane leaving for her new life at Thornfield.

12:15 Frank All right, with that start, let's take a break here. And when we come back, we'll journey with Jane Eyre to Thornfield Hall, where she will start a new life as a hired governess. We'll be right back. Welcome back. OK, when we took our break, Jane had left Lowood School, where she had spent six years as a student and two years as a teacher. She's now found a governess position at Thornfield Hall. Katie, tell us a little bit about Thornfield Hall.

12:45 Katie When she finally arrives at Thornfield, it's nighttime. Although she cannot distinguish much of the house's facade from among the shadows, she finds the interior to be cozy and agreeable.

12:57 Anthony She meets Mrs. Fairfax, a prim, elderly woman. It turns out that Mrs. Fairfax is not, as Jane had assumed from their correspondence, the owner of Thornfield, but rather the housekeeper. Thornfield's owner, Mr. Rochester, travels regularly and leaves much of the manor's management to Mrs. Fairfax.

13:15 Katie Jane learns that she will be tutoring Adele, an eight-year-old French girl, whose mother was a singer and dancer. Mrs. Fairfax also tells Jane about Rochester, saying that he's not an eccentric man, but his family has a history of extreme and violent behavior.

13:31 Frank And as they're having this conversation, suddenly, Jane hears a peal of strange, eerie laughter echoing through the house, and Mrs. Fairfax summons someone named Grace, whom she orders to make less noise and to, quote, remember directions. When Grace leaves, Mrs. Fairfax explains that she's a rather unbalanced and unpredictable seamstress who works in the house.

13:51 Anthony Despite that oddity, Jane finds life at Thornfield pleasant, comfortable. Adele proves to be exuberant and intelligent, and those spoiled and at times a bit petulant.

14:02 Frank But while content, Jane is frequently restless and works to collect her thoughts while pacing Thornfield's top story passageway or taking walks along the local roads.

14:11 Katie One evening, a few months after arriving at Thornfield, Jane is walking along, watching the moon rise when she perceives a horse approaching. It calls to her mind the story Bessie once told her of a spirit called a Guy Trash, which disguises itself as a mule or a dog or a horse to frighten belated travelers.

14:33 Frank And surprisingly enough, a dog then appears. But once she realizes that the horse has a rider, the uncanny moment ceases and passes.

14:40 Anthony And just after the horse passes her, it slips on a patch of ice and its rider tumbles to the ground. Jane helps the man rise to his feet and introduces herself to him. She observes that he has a dark face, stern features, and a heavy brow. He is not quite middle-aged. He quickly, but carefully, remounts and rides off.

15:00 Katie Upon re-entering Thornfield, Jane goes to Mrs. Fairfax's room and sees that same dog, named Pilot, resting on the rug. A servant answers Jane's queries, explaining that the dog belongs to Mr. Rochester, who has just returned home with a sprained ankle, having fallen from his horse.

15:20 Frank So we finally meet Mr. Rochester, the owner of Thornfield Hall.

15:24 Anthony The day following his arrival, Mr. Rochester invites Jane and Adele to have tea with him. He is abrupt and rather cold towards both of them.

15:32 Frank And Jane learns a little more about Rochester from Mrs. Fairfax.

15:36 Katie Rochester was something of a family outcast, and when his father died, his older brother inherited Thornfield. And then, after the death of his brother, Rochester inherited Thornfield and has been the proprietor for nine years.

15:51 Anthony Jane sees little of Rochester during his first days at Thornfield. One night, however, in his, quote, after-dinner mood, as they say, Rochester sends for Jane and Adele. He gives Adele the present she has been anxiously awaiting from his travels. And while Adele plays, Rochester is uncharacteristically chatty with Jane.

16:11 Frank Now, Anthony, after-dinner mood? Does that mean he was drunk?

16:14 Anthony Well, Jane thinks so, and as a reader, yeah, we're pretty much meant to think that. When Rochester asks Jane whether she thinks him handsome, she answers, no, without thinking. And from Rochester's reaction, Jane concludes that, yeah, he's slightly drunk. Rochester's command that she converse with him makes Jane feel understandably awkward, especially when conversation turns to the concept of sin, forgiveness, and redemption. When Adele mentions her mother, Jane is intrigued, and Rochester promises to explain more about the situation on a future occasion.

16:47 Frank Which, Katie, he soon does.

16:48 Katie He does. Sometime later, Rochester fulfills that promise to tell her about his and Adele's past. He had a long affair with Adele's mother, a French singer and dancer named Céline Varennes. When he discovered that Céline was engaged in relations to another man, Rochester ended the relationship. Rochester has always denied Celine's claim that Adele is his daughter, noting that the child looks utterly unlike him. Even so, when Celine abandoned her daughter, Rochester brought Adele to England so that she might be properly cared for.

17:22 Frank And that night, Jane hears what sound like fingers brushing against the walls, and again that eerie laugh soon emanates from the hallway. She hears a door opening and runs out of her room to see smoke coming from Rochester's door.

17:36 Anthony Katie just for real cringed even hearing the description there.

17:39 Katie I did. You can't hear that on the tape.

17:41 Anthony Jane dashes into his room and finds his bed curtains ablaze. She douses the bed with water, saving Rochester's life.

17:48 Frank Yeah, but strangely, Rochester's reaction is to visit the third floor of the house. When he returns, he says mysteriously, I have found it all out. It is just as I thought. He inquires whether Jane has ever heard that eerie laugh before, and she answers that she has heard Grace Poole laugh in the same way. Ah, just so, Grace Poole. You've guessed it, Rochester says. He thanks Jane for saving his life and cautions her to tell no one about the details of the night's events.

18:14 Katie The next morning, Jane is shocked to learn that the near tragedy of the night before has caused no scandal. The servants believe Rochester to have fallen asleep with a lit candle by his bed, and even Grace Poole shows no signs of guilt or remorse. Jane cannot imagine why an attempted murderer is allowed to continue working at Thornfield.

18:36 Anthony Heavy accusation. As the time passes, she realizes that she's beginning to have feelings for Rochester, and is disappointed to hear that he'll be away from Thornfield for several days.

18:47 Frank Anthony, disappointed he will be away, or disappointed to hear he's going to a party?

18:51 Anthony Well, he does leave to attend a party, where he'll be in the company of Blanche Ingram, a beautiful lady. Jane scolds herself for being disappointed by the news, and she resolves to restrain those flights of imaginative fancy.

19:05 Frank Anthony, anything we know or think we know about Blanche Ingram?

19:08 Anthony Well, we come to know that Blanche Ingram is a beautiful socialite who despises Jane and hopes to marry Rochester for his money.

19:17 Katie And a week later, Mrs. Fairfax receives word that Rochester will return in three days with a large group of guests.

19:25 Frank And while she waits, Jane continues to be amazed by the apparently normal relations the strange, self-isolated Grace Poole enjoys with the rest of the staff. Jane also overhears a conversation in which a few of the servants discuss Grace's high pay, and Jane is certain she doesn't know the entire truth about Grace Poole's role at Thornfield Hall.

19:44 Katie Rochester arrives at last, accompanied by a party of elegant and aristocratic guests. Jane is forced to join the group, but spends the evening watching them from the window seat. Blanche Ingram and her mother are among the party members. They treat Jane with disdain and cruelty.

20:02 Anthony When Jane tries to leave the party, Rochester stops her. He grudgingly allows her to go when he sees the tears starting to well up in her eyes. He informs her that she must come into the drawing room every evening during his guests' stay at Thornfield. And then Rochester makes a slip of his words? Yeah, yeah. He says, uh, they start to part. Rochester nearly lets slip more than he intends. Good night, my… He says, before biting his lip. My what? My dear, my darling.

20:33 Frank Katie, fill in a word.

20:36 Katie My sweetheart, my love.

20:37 Frank Yeah, my love is where I was figuring.

20:40 Katie Part of it, when I read it the first time, which was when I was in ninth grade or something, I thought it was because there was, the rest of the party calls them my pet, my dove, my sweetness, my only, the whole time. So I don't know. I thought it was just part of that. But now that I'm more mature, I. Right.

21:00 Anthony Especially maybe after he sees her crying, that's like this moment of empathy and he lets his guard down.

21:05 Frank Well, and as we come to learn a little later, presumably he's already made a decision as far as Blanche versus Jane. Now, none of us know that for a while, but maybe he knows that.

21:18 Anthony All right, Anthony, the guests stay? The guests stay at Thornfield for several days from watching their interactions. Jane believes that Rochester and Blanche will be married soon, though they do not seem to love one another. Jane's convinced that Blanche would be marrying Rochester for his wealth, and he for her beauty and her social position.

21:37 Katie One day, a strange man named Mr. Richard Mason arrives at Thornfield. Jane dislikes him at once because of his vacant eyes and his slowness. When Rochester learns that Mr. Mason has arrived, he looks uneasy and he grabs Jane's arm for balance.

21:54 Anthony The same night, Jane is startled by a sudden cry for help. She hurries into the hallway where Rochester assures everyone that a servant has merely had a nightmare.

22:04 Frank And after everyone returns to bed, Rochester knocks on Jane's door. He tells her that he can use her help and asks whether she's afraid of blood. He leads her to the third story of the house and shows her Mr. Mason, who has been bitten and perhaps stabbed in the arm. Rochester asks Jane to staunch the wound and then leaves, ordering Mason and Jane not to speak to each other. Rochester returns with a surgeon, and as the men tend to Mason's wounds, Rochester sends Jane to find a potion downstairs in his room. He gives some of the potion to Mason, saying that it will give him some heart for an hour or so. Anthony, the shocks continue for Jane.

22:40 Anthony Jane soon learns that her cousin John Reed has committed suicide. And that her aunt, Mrs. Reed, has suffered a stroke, is nearing death. Jane goes to Gateshead where she tries to patch things up with Mrs. Reed, but the old woman is still full of hostility towards her late husband's favorite. And Katie, more shocks.

22:58 Katie Yes, Mrs. Reed gives Jane a letter from her father's brother named John Eyre. He declares that he wishes to adopt Jane and bequeath her his fortune. The letter is three years old. Out of malice, Mrs. Reed didn't forward it to Jane when she received it. In spite of her aunt's behavior, Jane tries once more to smooth relations with the dying woman. But Mrs. Reed refuses, and at midnight, she dies.

23:26 Frank As Jane travels back to Thornfield, she anxiously anticipates seeing Rochester again, and yet she worries about what will become of her after his marriage to Blanche Ingram. To her surprise, as she walks from the station at Millcote, Jane encounters Rochester. After a few words together, Jane surprises herself by expressing the happiness she feels in Rochester's presence. She says, I'm strangely glad to get back to you again, and wherever you are is my home, my only home. And then back at the manor, Mrs. Fairfax, Adele, and the servants greet Jane warmly. Things are looking up for Jane, I guess for now, maybe.

24:02 Anthony After a blissful two weeks, Jane encounters Rochester in the gardens. He invites her to walk with him. Rochester confides that he has finally decided to marry Blanche Ingram and tells Jane that he knows of an available governess position in Ireland that she could take. Jane expresses her distress at the great distance that separates Ireland from Thornfield Hall. The two seat themselves on a bench at the foot of the chestnut tree and overcome. Jane soon confesses her love to Rochester and, to her surprise, he asks her to be his wife. Wait, what?

24:38 Frank I guess I didn't see that coming. What?

24:42 Katie She suspects that he is teasing her, but he convinces her otherwise and admitting that he only brought up marrying Blanche in order to arouse Jane's jealousy.

24:53 Frank I guess it worked.

24:54 Katie Convinced and elated, Jane accepts his proposal. A storm breaks, and the newly engaged couple hurries indoors through the rain.

25:03 Frank But that night, during the storm, a bolt of lightning splits that same chestnut tree under which Rochester and Jane had been sitting that evening. That can't be good.

25:11 Anthony There's the weather again. Well, she has a premonition. She says, hey, this wedding will not happen. And she decides to write her uncle, John Eyre, who's in Madeira. Jane reasons that if John Eyre were to make her his heir, her inheritance might put her on more equal footing with Rochester, which would make her feel less uncomfortable about the marriage. And more premonitions!

25:34 Katie Yes, the night before their wedding, Jane is aroused from her sleep and she perceives a form rustling in her closet. It turned out to be a strange, savage-looking woman who took Jane's veil and tore it in two. Rochester tells her that the woman must have been Grace Poole and that What she experienced was really a half dream, half reality. He tells her that he will give her a full explanation of the events of that night after they've been married for one year and one day.

26:04 Frank Now I'm getting premonitions.

26:07 Anthony On their wedding day, Rochester and Jane walk to the church. Jane notes a pair of strangers reading the headstones in the churchyard cemetery. As Jane and Rochester enter the church, the two strangers are also present. When the priest asks if anyone objects to the ceremony, one of the strangers answers, The marriage cannot go on. I declare the existence of an impediment. The stranger explains that Rochester already married. His wife is a Creole woman whom Rochester wed 15 years earlier in Jamaica. He is a solicitor from London, like a lawyer, and he introduces himself as Mr. Briggs. He produces a signed letter from Richard Mason affirming that Rochester is married to Mason's sister, Bertha.

26:49 Katie Richard Mason himself steps forward to corroborate the story. After a moment of inarticulate fury, Rochester admits that his wife is alive and that no one in the community knows of his wife because she is mad, and he keeps her locked away under the care of Grace Poole. But, he promises them all, Jane is completely ignorant of Bertha's existence. He orders the crowd to come to Thornfield to see her.

27:13 Frank At Thornfield, the group climbs to the third story, and Rochester points out the room where Bertha had bitten her brother. And then he lifts a tapestry to uncover a second door. Inside this hidden room is Bertha Mason, under the care of Grace Poole.

27:28 Anthony I love that. That's another bit that seems like a cliche now, but the whole group goes, all of you, follow me.

27:34 Frank And the mad woman in the attic. That becomes a trope or a meme. I don't know what you guys call it these days.

27:41 Anthony Oh, right. When Bertha attempts to strangle Rochester, Jane leaves the room with Mason and Briggs, who tells her that he learned of her intent to marry via a letter from Jane's uncle, John Eyre. Stay with us. Sent to Mr. Mason. It turns out that the two men are acquaintances, and Mason had stopped in Madeira on his way back to Jamaica when John received Jane's letter. Approaching death, John asked Mason to hurry to England to save his niece.

28:09 Katie And after falling asleep for a short while, Jane awakes to the realization that she must leave Thornfield. When she steps out of her room, she finds Rochester waiting in a chair on the threshold. To Rochester's assurance that he never meant to wound her, and to his pleas of forgiveness, Jane is silent. Although she confides to the reader that she has forgiven him on the spot.

28:34 Frank And then Rochester offers her a new proposal. Let's leave England and go to the south of France where we can live together as husband and wife. Jane refuses, explaining that no matter how Rochester chooses to view the situation, she will never be more than a mistress to him while Bertha is still alive. Rochester realizes he must explain why he does not consider himself married and he launches into the story of his past.

28:57 Anthony Anthony, and I love this because this really talks about sort of that old money, generational wealth, like this is an exemplary situation.

29:04 Frank Especially in England where it all goes to the oldest son and there's that primogenitor and anyway.

29:09 Anthony Exactly. So you see that unwilling to divide his property, Rochester's father left his entire estate to his other son, the older one, Rowland, and sent Rochester to Jamaica to marry Bertha Mason, who was beautiful and due to inherit a massive fortune." So he's like, you go make money that way, we'll do this. Shortly after the wedding, Rochester learned that Bertha's mother was not, as he had been led to believe, dead, but mad and living in insane asylum. And Bertha's younger brother is described as a quote, mute idiot. Bertha soon revealed herself to be prone to violent outbreaks of temper and unhealthy indulgences, and these excesses only hasten the approach. What has been lurking on her horizon already? Absolute madness.

29:52 Katie And by this time, Rochester's father and brother had died, so Rochester found himself all alone with a maniacal wife and a huge fortune. He considered killing himself, but returned to England instead. He resolved to place Bertha at Thornfield Hall, quote, in safety and comfort, to shelter her degradation with secrecy and leave her.

30:13 Frank Jane feels torn now, right? She wonders how she could ever find another man who values her the way Rochester does, and whether, after a life of loneliness and neglect, she should leave the first man who has ever loved her. It's seemingly a tough decision, isn't it, Anthony?

30:27 Anthony Her conscience tells her that she will respect herself all the more if she bears her suffering alone and does what she believes to be right. So she makes that tough decision. She tells Rochester that she must go. She kisses his cheek, prays aloud for God to bless him as she departs. Grabs her purse, sneaks down the stair. She's out of there.

30:45 Frank All right, let's take a break here. And when we come back, we'll once again follow Jane Eyre in her travels and her travails. We'll be right back. And we're back. All right, guys, when we took our break, Jane had left Thornfield Hall, her first true home, but also a place of disappointment. I might say a place of roses, but with the attendant thorns. But if things have been hard for Jane before, they get desperate now.

31:16 Katie Jane quickly exhausts her meager money supply and is forced to sleep outdoors. She spends much of the night in prayer and the following day she begs for food or a job in the nearby town. No one helps her except for one farmer who's willing to give her a slice of bread dipped in milk.

31:34 Anthony After another long day and night, Jane sees a light shining from across the moors. I just like that. That imagery is great. Following it, she comes to a house. Through the window, Jane sees and hears two young women studying German while their servant knits. From their conversation, Jane learns that the servant is named Hannah and that the graceful young women are Diana and Mary. The three women are waiting for someone named St. John, which they pronounce Sinjin. Jane knocks on the door, but Hannah refuses to let her in.

32:03 Katie And collapsing on the doorstep in anguish and weakness, Jane cries, quote, I can but die, and I believe in God. Let me try to wait his will in silence. And a voice answers, all men must die, but are not condemned to meet a lingering and premature doom such as yours would be if you perished here of want. The voice belonged to Sinjin who brings Jane into his house. He is the brother of Diana and Mary and the three siblings give Jane food and shelter. They ask her some questions and she gives them a false name, Jane Elliot.

32:44 Frank And after she's taken in by the Rivers' siblings, Jane spends about three days recuperating in bed. And then Hannah tells her the story of Mr. Rivers, the siblings' father, who lost most of the family fortune in a bad business deal. It's because of that that Diana and Mary are now forced to work as governesses. They're only at Marsh End, or as they call it, Morehouse, now because their father died just three weeks ago. Jane relates some of her own story and admits that Jane Elliot is not her real name. St. John promises to find her a job.

33:14 Katie Sinjin tells his sisters that their Uncle John has died and left them with nothing because all of his money went to another unknown relative. Jane learns that it was Uncle John who led Mr. Rivers into his disastrous business deal.

33:28 Frank At Morton's school, the wealthy heiress Rosamund Oliver provides Jane with a cottage in which to live. Jane believes that Rosamund and St. John are in love, but he explains that he refuses to allow worldly affection to interfere with his holy duties. The flirtatious, silly, and shallow Rosamund would make a terrible wife for a missionary. Suddenly, St. John notices something on the edge of one of Jane's papers and tears off a tiny piece. Jane's not certain why, but with a peculiar look on his face, he hurries from the room. Uh-oh.

33:58 Katie Uh-oh. Soon, Sinjin appears at her door in Morton. Appearing troubled, he tells Jane the story of an orphan girl who became the governess at Thornfield Hall, then disappeared after nearly marrying Edward Rochester. This runaway governess's name was Jane Eyre, Until this point, Jane has been cautious not to reveal her past and has given the rivers a false name. Thus, although it is clear that Sinjin suspects her of being this woman about whom he speaks, she does not immediately identify herself.

34:32 Anthony He says that he has received a letter from a solicitor, you know, like a lawyer, named Mr. Briggs, intimating that it is extremely important that this Jane Eyre be found. Jane is only interested in whether Mr. Briggs has sent news of Rochester, but St. John says that Rochester's well-being is not an issue. Jane Eyre must be found because her uncle, John Eyre, has died, leaving her the vast fortune of 20,000 pounds.

34:59 Frank Anthony, I think 20,000 pounds today would be almost 3 million pounds. Of course, Jane reveals herself to be Jane Eyre, knowing that St. John has pretty much already guessed that. She asks him how he knew. He shows her the scrap of paper he tore from her drawing the previous day. It is her signature. She then asks why Mr. Briggs would have sent him a letter about her at all.

35:22 Katie Sinjin explains that, though he did not realize it before, he is her cousin. Her Uncle John was his Uncle John, and his name is Saint John Eyre Rivers. Jane is overjoyed to have found a family at long last, and she decides to divide her inheritance between her cousins and herself evenly, so that each of them will receive 5,000 pounds.

35:45 Frank You know, I've never really been a fan of these happy coincidences, but they were prevalent as early English writers perfected the concept of plotting. Okay, let me guess, they live happily ever after?

35:56 Anthony Well, as time goes by, St. John exerts a greater and greater influence on Jane. His power over her is almost uncanny. This leaves Jane feeling empty, cold, and sad. She follows his wishes. At last, he asks her to go to India with him to be a missionary and, you guessed it, to be his wife.

36:15 Frank Well, she's got all that money.

36:16 Anthony Well, it's true, but every guy she ends up working for after a while is like, you know what? Let's get married. She agrees to go to India as a missionary, but says that she will not be his wife because they are not in love.

36:29 Katie and Sinjin harshly insists that she marry him. During the following week, Sinjin continues to pray for Jane, and she is overcome with awe at his power of speech and his influence. She almost feels compelled to marry him, but at that moment, she hears what she thinks is Rochester's voice, calling her name as if from a great distance. Jane believes that something fateful has occurred, and Sinjin's spell over her is broken.

36:59 Anthony Jane contemplates her supernatural experience of the previous night, wondering whether it was really Rochester's voice that she heard calling to her and whether Rochester might actually be in trouble. At this point in her life, she's learned to trust those premonitions. So she boards a coach to Thornfield. She travels to the manor, anxious to see Rochester and reflecting on the ways in which her life has changed in the single year since she has left. Once hopeless, alone, and impoverished, Jane now has friends, family, and a fortune.

37:27 Frank She hurries to the house after her coach arrives and is shocked to find Thornfield Hall a charred ruin. She goes to an inn called, of course, the Rochester Arms to learn what has happened. Here, she learns that Bertha Mason set the house ablaze several months earlier. Rochester saved his servants and tried to save his wife, but she flung herself from the roof as the fire raged around her. In the fire, Rochester lost a hand and went blind. He's now taken up residence in a house called Ferndine, located deep in the forest with John and Mary, two of his elderly servants.

37:59 Katie So Jane goes to Ferndine. From a distance, she sees Rochester, but his face is desperate and disconsolate. Rochester turns inside, and Jane approaches the house. She knocks, and Mary answers the door.

38:12 Anthony Once she's inside, Jane carries a tray to Rochester, who is unable to see her, of course. When he realizes that Jane is in the room with him, he thinks she must be a ghost or a spirit speaking to him. When he catches her hand, he takes her in his arms, and she promises never to leave him. The next morning, they walk through the woods, and Jane tells Rochester about her experiences during the previous year.

38:34 Katie She has to assure him that she is not in love with Stingen. He asks her again to marry him, and she says yes. They are now free from the specter of Bertha Mason. Rochester tells Jane that a few nights earlier, in a moment of desperation, he called out her name and thought he heard her answer, but she does not wish to upset him or excite him in his fragile condition, so she doesn't tell him about her hearing his voice at Morehouse.

39:03 Frank And so Jane and Rochester marry, with no witnesses other than the parson and the church clerk. Jane writes to her cousins with the news. St. John never acknowledges what has happened, but Mary and Diana write back with their good wishes. Jane visits Adele at her school and finds her unhappy. Remembering her own childhood experiences, Jane moves Adele to a more congenial school, and Adele grows up to be a very pleasant, mild-mannered young woman.

39:27 Anthony Jane writes that she's narrating this story after 10 years of marriage to Rochester, which she describes as inexpressibly blissful.

39:36 Frank But she tries to express it anyway.

39:39 Anthony And you know, after this life that she's had, I think she deserves that. Absolutely. They live as equals and she helps him to cope with his blindness.

39:47 Katie And after two years, Rochester begins to regain his sight in one eye. And when their first child, a boy, is born, Rochester is able to see the baby. Jane continues in her diary that Diana and Mary have both found husbands and that Sinjin went to India as he had planned. She notes that in his last letter, Sinjin claims to have had a premonition of his approaching death.

40:12 Frank Jane does not believe that she will hear from Sinjin again, but she does not grieve for him, stating that he has fulfilled his promise and done God's work. She closes her book with a quote from his letter, in which he begs the Lord Jesus to come for him quickly. And with the closing of her book comes the ending of our novel, Jane Eyre. All right, Katie, Anthony, now let's take a final break and then head into our last segment where I'd like to ask the two of you to share a moment or a character or a quote that we haven't had a chance to talk about yet. Right now, you're listening to Novel Conversations. I'm Frank Lavallo. We'll be right back. Welcome back. You're listening to Novel Conversations, and I'm joined by our Novel Conversations readers, Katie Smith and Anthony Mahramus. Katie, do you have something to share with us?

41:06 Katie Of course I do. Well, as Charlotte Bronte is one of the first well-known female novelists.

41:10 Frank Indeed. With Jane Austen, yep.

41:13 Katie So I am particularly drawn to the way that she presents characters and in particular, the relationship between men and women. And I would be hard pressed not to mention the way that Sin Jin almost pushes marriage on her and her reaction towards it. I think the descriptions are just so good and written in a voice that as a woman myself, it's so particular and it's exactly how it feels when something like that is happening.

41:41 Frank And at this time, for Charlotte Bronte, that would have been a new voice of, if I can use the word, feminism, or of a woman's feelings. I don't, you know, I might use the word proto too often, but I think we can call Jane Eyre and Charlotte Bronte herself proto-feminists. They would not have identified themselves that way. They wouldn't have had the vocabulary. to identify themselves that way, but they were taking steps forward for women, and I think we also mentioned for the less well-off, the people that were not aristocrats. I found both of those to be fascinating for such an early novel.

42:22 Katie Yes.

42:22 Anthony the piece about, you know, being a woman in that time. Like, I love any movie or book when you think about the time that it's in. Because at first you think, oh, I've heard this. Oh, wait a minute. This is written 1840s. And so just thinking about how you learn from other historical sort of novels that, oh, getting a husband was the greatest thing you could hope for. Oh, you'd be so lucky to have that taken care of for you. But twice she goes, no. No, she's just her own person, and I think that's bold. And it still comes off as empowering to just go, like, she does what she thinks is best. She trusts her gut, and it's gotten her this far.

42:53 Frank It's gotten her pretty far. Yeah. Anthony, do you have something?

42:57 Anthony I got hooked from the beginning of this book with just sort of her attitude and her, again, the boldness to use that word. But the most affecting part for me came when Helen died and just her way, her very clear-eyed way of describing death and realizing as a 10-year-old what is there, which is really interesting because her parents had already passed, but she was so young, she didn't have that like, oh, I had them, now I don't. She just knows that that's a thing. And so at one point even, she's asking about Helen, how's she doing? And says, she'll not be here long. And the phrase uttered in my hearing yesterday would have only conveyed the notion that she was about to be removed from Northumberland to her own home. I should not have suspected that it meant she was dying. I just thought that was, you know, of course, as a kid, you know, oh, she won't be here long. Oh, where's she going? No, no, I'm saying that she's dying and her having that realization imprint And then as it goes on, her last conversation with Helen, I just found it so touching, because earlier, Helen, when she was scolded and disciplined, and Jane wanted to stand up for her, but Helen said, oh, no, no, no, it's okay. It's not that bad. I know how to deal with it. I have faith in God. It's going to be taken care of. She brings that same sort of pious attitude to dying.

44:04 Frank To the death, right?

44:05 Anthony Yeah. She even just says, it's part of life. It's just my time. Hey, I'm not going to suffer anymore. And it's just really fascinating and touching. And in just that last moment that they have together, where she crawls in bed with her, which by the way, Helen died from the same thing that her parents died. And she is not scared to not only be in the room against everybody's advice, she lays with her.

44:26 Frank She dies of consumption. I believe we have her parents dying of typhus. Oh, okay.

44:30 Anthony Oh, I'm sorry. Okay.

44:32 Katie It is a typhus outbreak, but Helen's in her own room because she doesn't have the same thing. She's got something else.

44:36 Frank That's right. Okay. What we would think of today is she crawls into bed with a consumptive and that's not the healthiest thing to be doing for yourself. You're more likely to catch that than the typhus, I would think. At that point. All right, guys, I want to focus on Preacher Brocklehurst or Mr. Brocklehurst. We mentioned the word hypocritical. He's hypocritical. There's one great scene where he's in the auditorium with all the girls and he notices a couple of girls are curling their hair. Although Miss Temple says, well, no, Joan's hair is curly because it's naturally curly. Preacher Brocklehurst will have none of that, and he orders the girls to have their curls cut off. Right at that moment, Mr. Brocklehurst's family enters, the wife and two daughters, and as they're described by Charlotte Bronte of being in these beautiful dresses and their jewels and their finery, we're also told that all their hair is adorned with French curls. And I just found that such a hypocritical moment where he's demanding, he's cutting girls' hair off, and yet his daughters, his wife, are in the exact same, are wearing the exact same fashion.

45:48 Katie That broke my heart as a curly-headed girl.

45:52 Frank It breaks my heart that I have no headed girl, no headed hair. Anyway, all right. Guys, I think with that, let's stop now and end our conversation about the novel, Jane Eyre. I want to thank you both once again for coming in and having this conversation with me. Thanks for having us. Thanks, Frankie. Thanks for listening to Novel Conversations. If you're enjoying the show, please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find us on Instagram at NovelConversations. Follow us to stay up to date on upcoming episodes and in anything else we've got in the works. I want to give special thanks to our readers today, Elizabeth Flood and Anthony Mahramus. Our sound designer and producer is Noah Foutz, and Grace Sienna Longfellow is our audio engineer. Our executive producers are Brigid Coyne and Joan Andrews. I'm Frank Lavallo. Thank you for listening. I hope you soon find yourself in a novel conversation all your own.

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